RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

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Sam Roff, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 16 Join Date: 9/18/20 Recent Posts
Edit: Ahhh Daniel already posted about this in a seperate thread

Attempted to delete this post thinking it would remove thread completely but only deleted my initial post lol. 
I'll repost what OP was here.  Feel free to take the thread down.

----


Meditation Maps, Attainment Claims, and the Adversities of Mindfulness

Published May this year.

Didn't see this posted anywhere, interesting to get a scholary perspective on MCTB/Daniel's work.

In true Bhikkhu Analayo scholaristic fashion, this is a long read.

I think this is worth sharing to get a more wholistic view of what others think of Daniel and his work to avoid being not exercising our own
discernment, even though Daniels work is extremely helpful is many many ways imo. 

Trigger warning:  There's lots of contension in this article.

Analyo is firmly in the camp of Arahantship being eradication of all defilements and is embracing of the Emotional models.
Analyo quotes Daniel:  Models of realization that involve high ideals of human
perfection have caused so much dejection, despair, and misguided
efforts throughout the ages that I have no qualms about doing my best to
try to smash them to pieces on the sharp rocks of reality.

Analyo: 
Yet, the true rocks of reality are rather to be found in awareness of
the presence of defilements in one’s own mind. Such awareness can serve
to demolish unfounded claims to having become an arahant. It is the
decoupling of the final goal from freedom from defilements that is
harmful, as this can indeed cause much dejection and despair, something
fairly evident whenever this has happened. For someone who has evidently
not reached a level of awakening himself to disbelieve the possibility
of reaching awakening is in itself not surprising. A simile from the
discourses illustrates such confusion with the example of congenitally
blind persons who claim that there cannot be any colors as they have
never seen any (DN 23, DĀ 7, MĀ 71, T 45; Anālayo 2017a, p. 306). But to
go to the extreme of vituperation against the very notion of awakening
as involving a purification of the mind is rather remarkable.
Another thing that stood out for me was his critique of fast noting as a practice
Fast noting can easily proceed from noting what has just appeared, to what
is just appearing, to what is just about to appear, to what one expects
to be just about to appear. From this point onward, the act of noting
can actually serve to create experience, even without the practitioner
consciously noting that (pun intended). Combined with an aggressive type
of mindfulness that is comparable with shooting aliens, such practice
can turn into a construction of meditative experiences rather than being
an insightful observation of what happens naturally. Due to the mind
being so busy noting in quick succession, the construction of meditative
experience to conform to supposed insight knowledges and even levels of
awakening will not be noticed.

This article is ripe with many other contensions. 
I'd be curious to see if any stand out to you, why, and if you agree/disagree.

Metta,
Derek2, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 197 Join Date: 9/21/16 Recent Posts
Are you talking about the same article as in the thread from May? https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/20758809
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Sam Roff, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 16 Join Date: 9/18/20 Recent Posts
Yeah, didn't happen to see the original thread at the time and can't seem to take this thread down as lack permissions.
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Ole Henry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 9 Join Date: 10/31/20 Recent Posts
His words on fast noting aren't wrong in my experience, but that doesn't mean that creating is wrong, if one is mindful of one's own creations. It can be very interesting and lead to some insights that could otherwise be missed. So, I understand this monk to say wise things because he regards it as helpful. Some of the stuff ones create if one's isn't mindful of who's the creator might blow the mind far out, too far out, and that can be dangerous and unnecessary for developing the path. The point is: One has to take care all the time!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 2222 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
The age old "my God is better than your God" or in this case "my understanding of Dhamma is the right one and your the wrong one" or "Buddha said tip of the nose and not the whole body breathing" etc ... 

Azura Realm is all I'm saying emoticon 

Mind is creating everything! emoticon be it a Jhana absorption or experience noted fast. 

Off I go now! 
Im back to chop the wood! 
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 1858 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Sam Roff:
Ahhh it had been posted.

Cheers Pepe.

Attempted to delete above post thinking it would remove thread but only deleted my initial post lol.  I'll repost what OP was here.  Feel free to take down.


Meditation Maps, Attainment Claims, and the Adversities of Mindfulness

Published May this year.

Didn't see this posted anywhere, interesting to get a scholary perspective on MCTB/Daniel's work.

In true Bhikkhu Analayo scholaristic fashion, this is a long read.

I think this is worth sharing to get a more wholistic view of what others think of Daniel and his work to avoid being not exercising our own
discernment, even though Daniels work is extremely helpful is many many ways imo. 

Trigger warning:  There's lots of contension in this article.

Analyo is firmly in the camp of Arahantship being eradication of all defilements and is embracing of the Emotional models.
Analyo quotes Daniel:  Models of realization that involve high ideals of human
perfection have caused so much dejection, despair, and misguided
efforts throughout the ages that I have no qualms about doing my best to
try to smash them to pieces on the sharp rocks of reality.

Analyo: 
Yet, the true rocks of reality are rather to be found in awareness of
the presence of defilements in one’s own mind. Such awareness can serve
to demolish unfounded claims to having become an arahant. It is the
decoupling of the final goal from freedom from defilements that is
harmful, as this can indeed cause much dejection and despair, something
fairly evident whenever this has happened. For someone who has evidently
not reached a level of awakening himself to disbelieve the possibility
of reaching awakening is in itself not surprising. A simile from the
discourses illustrates such confusion with the example of congenitally
blind persons who claim that there cannot be any colors as they have
never seen any (DN 23, DĀ 7, MĀ 71, T 45; Anālayo 2017a, p. 306). But to
go to the extreme of vituperation against the very notion of awakening
as involving a purification of the mind is rather remarkable.
Another thing that stood out for me was his critique of fast noting as a practice
Fast noting can easily proceed from noting what has just appeared, to what
is just appearing, to what is just about to appear, to what one expects
to be just about to appear. From this point onward, the act of noting
can actually serve to create experience, even without the practitioner
consciously noting that (pun intended). Combined with an aggressive type
of mindfulness that is comparable with shooting aliens, such practice
can turn into a construction of meditative experiences rather than being
an insightful observation of what happens naturally. Due to the mind
being so busy noting in quick succession, the construction of meditative
experience to conform to supposed insight knowledges and even levels of
awakening will not be noticed.

This article is ripe with many other contensions. 
I'd be curious to see if any stand out to you, why, and if you agree/disagree.

Metta,


    Being as the word "arahant" is notional anyway it is very easy to be an arahant simply by defining what you are as arahantship. 

    Being an arahant in the spirit of the scriptures implies that "the holy life has been lived and there is no more coming to any state of being." I not only doubt I will ever meet or come across such a being, I doubt I could in any case recognize them as such. This being true, I am at a loss to understand how anyone could authentically make such a claim. To whom?

   Maybe one of these guys who claims to be napoleon really is napoleon, how should I know?

terry
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 1858 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Sam Roff:
Ahhh it had been posted.

Cheers Pepe.

Attempted to delete above post thinking it would remove thread but only deleted my initial post lol.  I'll repost what OP was here.  Feel free to take down.


Meditation Maps, Attainment Claims, and the Adversities of Mindfulness

Published May this year.

Didn't see this posted anywhere, interesting to get a scholary perspective on MCTB/Daniel's work.

In true Bhikkhu Analayo scholaristic fashion, this is a long read.

I think this is worth sharing to get a more wholistic view of what others think of Daniel and his work to avoid being not exercising our own
discernment, even though Daniels work is extremely helpful is many many ways imo. 

Trigger warning:  There's lots of contension in this article.

Analyo is firmly in the camp of Arahantship being eradication of all defilements and is embracing of the Emotional models.
Analyo quotes Daniel:  Models of realization that involve high ideals of human
perfection have caused so much dejection, despair, and misguided
efforts throughout the ages that I have no qualms about doing my best to
try to smash them to pieces on the sharp rocks of reality.

Analyo: 
Yet, the true rocks of reality are rather to be found in awareness of
the presence of defilements in one’s own mind. Such awareness can serve
to demolish unfounded claims to having become an arahant. It is the
decoupling of the final goal from freedom from defilements that is
harmful, as this can indeed cause much dejection and despair, something
fairly evident whenever this has happened. For someone who has evidently
not reached a level of awakening himself to disbelieve the possibility
of reaching awakening is in itself not surprising. A simile from the
discourses illustrates such confusion with the example of congenitally
blind persons who claim that there cannot be any colors as they have
never seen any (DN 23, DĀ 7, MĀ 71, T 45; Anālayo 2017a, p. 306). But to
go to the extreme of vituperation against the very notion of awakening
as involving a purification of the mind is rather remarkable.
Another thing that stood out for me was his critique of fast noting as a practice
Fast noting can easily proceed from noting what has just appeared, to what
is just appearing, to what is just about to appear, to what one expects
to be just about to appear. From this point onward, the act of noting
can actually serve to create experience, even without the practitioner
consciously noting that (pun intended). Combined with an aggressive type
of mindfulness that is comparable with shooting aliens, such practice
can turn into a construction of meditative experiences rather than being
an insightful observation of what happens naturally. Due to the mind
being so busy noting in quick succession, the construction of meditative
experience to conform to supposed insight knowledges and even levels of
awakening will not be noticed.

This article is ripe with many other contensions. 
I'd be curious to see if any stand out to you, why, and if you agree/disagree.

Metta,


   I remember from little kid time when da boyz would climb onto a pile of construction dirt and play "king of the hill." One boy would get to the top of the pile and say, "I'm king of the hill" and the other boys would try to pull him down and replace him so they could say "I'm king of the hill" for their brief reign. I remember it being good fun! For boys.

terry




from the rubaiyat of omar khayyam, trans fitzgerald


XIV.

 The Worldly Hope men set their Hearts upon
 Turns Ashes—or it prospers; and anon,
   Like Snow upon the Desert's dusty Face
 Lighting a little Hour or two—is gone.


XV.

 And those who husbanded the Golden Grain,
 And those who flung it to the Winds like Rain,
   Alike to no such aureate Earth are turn'd
 As, buried once, Men want dug up again.


XVI.

 Think, in this batter'd Caravanserai
 Whose Doorways are alternate Night and Day,
   How Sultan after Sultan with his Pomp
 Abode his Hour or two, and went his way.


XVII.

 They say the Lion and the Lizard keep
 The Courts where Jamshyd gloried and drank deep:
   And Bahram, that great Hunter—the Wild Ass
 Stamps o'er his Head, and he lies fast asleep.


XVIII.

 I sometimes think that never blows so red
 The Rose as where some buried Caesar bled;
   That every Hyacinth the Garden wears
 Dropt in its Lap from some once lovely Head.


XIX.

 And this delightful Herb whose tender Green
 Fledges the River's Lip on which we lean—
   Ah, lean upon it lightly! for who knows
 From what once lovely Lip it springs unseen!


XX.

 Ah! my Beloved, fill the Cup that clears
 TO-DAY of past Regrets and future Fears-
   To-morrow?—Why, To-morrow I may be
 Myself with Yesterday's Sev'n Thousand Years.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 4073 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I remember from little kid time when da boyz would climb onto a pile of construction dirt and play "king of the hill." One boy would get to the top of the pile and say, "I'm king of the hill" and the other boys would try to pull him down and replace him so they could say "I'm king of the hill" for their brief reign. I remember it being good fun! For boys.

Bucket o' crabs.
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 1858 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
I remember from little kid time when da boyz would climb onto a pile of construction dirt and play "king of the hill." One boy would get to the top of the pile and say, "I'm king of the hill" and the other boys would try to pull him down and replace him so they could say "I'm king of the hill" for their brief reign. I remember it being good fun! For boys.

Bucket o' crabs.

Is that like a bucket of chicken?
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 1858 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:


   I see...if the crab were solitary, it would climb out of the bucket with ease....
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 1858 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
terry:
Chris Marti:


   I see...if the crab were solitary, it would climb out of the bucket with ease....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq3sdF0YXkM
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 3209 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Latest developments: I submitted a Letter to the Editor of Mindfulness, which discussed the ethical problems with BA's letter, but this was rejected by them, stating that it didn't address the other issues in BA's article, and also stating that BA's criticisms were simply "the business of science". I disagree for numerous reasons, obviously.

There is another, larger article in the works with a bunch of collaborators calling for more research, but, in the meantime, I am reviving my original plan of a general response to the problem of ancient texts as scientific evidence and the problems of translating these to clinical contexts.

Hope all is well with everyone in this strange year,

Daniel
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 3209 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
The much larger response can be found here, but it will take a bit more time: www.theeprc.org.
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 1858 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:
Latest developments: I submitted a Letter to the Editor of Mindfulness, which discussed the ethical problems with BA's letter, but this was rejected by them, stating that it didn't address the other issues in BA's article, and also stating that BA's criticisms were simply "the business of science". I disagree for numerous reasons, obviously.

There is another, larger article in the works with a bunch of collaborators calling for more research, but, in the meantime, I am reviving my original plan of a general response to the problem of ancient texts as scientific evidence and the problems of translating these to clinical contexts.

Hope all is well with everyone in this strange year,

Daniel


    It took me awhile to realize that you literally meant a "Letter" to the "Editor" of "Mindfulness."

lol
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 1858 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
terry:
Daniel M. Ingram:
Latest developments: I submitted a Letter to the Editor of Mindfulness, which discussed the ethical problems with BA's letter, but this was rejected by them, stating that it didn't address the other issues in BA's article, and also stating that BA's criticisms were simply "the business of science". I disagree for numerous reasons, obviously.

There is another, larger article in the works with a bunch of collaborators calling for more research, but, in the meantime, I am reviving my original plan of a general response to the problem of ancient texts as scientific evidence and the problems of translating these to clinical contexts.

Hope all is well with everyone in this strange year,

Daniel


    It took me awhile to realize that you literally meant a "Letter" to the "Editor" of "Mindfulness."

lol


(our lives are utterly symbolic and yet literally true...we are living the dream, brother)
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 2222 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
"our lives are utterly symbolic and yet literally true...we are living the dream, brother"

emoticon beautiful emoticon
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Milo, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 365 Join Date: 11/13/18 Recent Posts
Hard to judge a paywalled paper by its abstract, but...

The main thrust seems to be that the dark night described in MCTB is similar to a culture bound syndrome - that is it's specific to certain meditation subcultures, and should not be assumed to apply to all meditation traditions.

For those who have access to the article: does he present any evidence or just suggest it should be studied?

To my mind, some kind of struggle culminating in a low point followed by epiphany is a pretty universal motif across spiritual traditions. Whether it becomes dangerously self pathologized specifically in heavy noting traditions is a good question, but you see the same or worse things happen to people from other meditative and non meditative traditions (e.g. externally induced experiences with hallucinogenic drugs).

I'm curious whether it might be that the spectrum of base reactions to such experiences includes harsh DN type experiences, but outcomes are moderated by inclusion of concentration practice, rather than noting specifically exacerbating the response.

What of traditions that incorporate both concentration and noting vs noting alone and vs concentration alone (Or heavy concentration focus)?
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J W, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 522 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
Milo:

The main thrust seems to be that the dark night described in MCTB is similar to a culture bound syndrome - that is it's specific to certain meditation subcultures, and should not be assumed to apply to all meditation traditions.

From what I remember, I didn't really get this from BA's article, it seemed more like a classic hit piece to me.

BUT the idea of the DN as a culture bound syndrome is a really interesting thought, something I have been thinking about.  It seems that it tends to happen more to Westerners than in places where these meditation techniques have been engrained culturally for 1000's of years.  I'm sure there's much more there than the way it appears on the surface level.  But one could surmise that there are systemic cultural factors (or lack thereof) which tend to exacerbate these psychological scenarios in the West.  Just for example... the idea that we all get sent to hell 
for eternity.  That doesn't exist so much in Buddhism / Taoism / Hinduism / other Eastern religions AFAIK.
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Mark Boolootian, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Bhikkhu Analayo's recent critique of Daniel/MCTB

Posts: 16 Join Date: 6/26/11 Recent Posts
Milo:
Hard to judge a paywalled paper by its abstract, but...


The paper is freely available at this link:  https://rdcu.be/b4aDZ

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