a way out of suffering...?

Ash More Vegas, modified 9 Years ago.

a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 3 Join Date: 8/24/11 Recent Posts
Hi Everybody.

I am new to this site, however i have done my fair share of reading the actual freedom website and Buddhist literature. I have done two 10 day meditation retreats, and practiced with various teachers.

I have also had a few Peak experiences or PCE's playing tennis, and others spread out at spontaneous moments.

I have recently had cancer, left my social network and returned to my hometown. I have recovered from it ..but lost alot of confidence i used to have. Not so much due to the illness, i got through that well at the time...but more the after effects - things like losing hair, financial situation, breaking up with g/f, being back at home etc. The thing is, most of what i thought i had gained due to insights and experiences, hasn't held up under pressure.

I realize this site is for serious practitioners - and i see that my only solution is to go deep and start again. I am just looking for some advice where to start as i am suffering quite alot now. Any exercises that have really helped someone get out of a bad spot - and on the road to clarity and towards AF?

HAIETMBA is good, but the heaviness sometimes doesn't allow me to stay with it.

Many thanks emoticon
adam h, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 7 Join Date: 8/14/11 Recent Posts
I'd suggest you analyze your options in methods to cure suffering. Here are some of the ways people have thought up:

1. Make your life about one thing and one thing only, so that you can essentially look at absolutely everything as part of the process of achieving that one thing, if your conviction is strong enough then you do just about everything and feel righteous about it, just ask suicide bombers.

Effectiveness: 3/10, If you ever find your progress towards your goal hindered you will certainly feel sorrow, the constant drive to achieve this one thing will never allow for your peace or freedom, and if you falter due to missing these things your problems will only get worse as doubt consumes you.

2. Attempt to drown out all of your "drive" with various forms of painkillers, drugs, thrill-seeking, basically anything that temporarily numbs that emptiness inside.

Effectiveness: 2/10, Unless you are able to find a super drug that keeps you incredibly high all the time for the rest of your life and you never crash, then you will find yourself dealing with the lows in which your masked desperation is severely increased by the constant repression, just ask heroin addicts.

3. Rid yourself of the felt need to do these things in the first place, a need which is bound up in your identity, the most effective way known to man being actual freedom which results in the complete destruction of the identity (nothing can go further than complete destruction, cuz it's complete).

Effectiveness: 10/10, Without the underlying problem suffering can't arise.

The route to actual freedom (that anyone on this website is aware of, I think) is basically to simply use the actualism method of simply inducing PCEs, shredding the social identity, and eventually with sufficient pure intent ridding "your" body of it's imagined self. Some people have found it greatly helpful to attain insights into the nature of becoming via Buddhist and other methods and then switching to actualist methods, others have simply used the actualism method the whole way.

I have been using the actualism method of asking myself each moment again "how am I experiencing this moment of being alive?" and using the answer to disbelieve beliefs, minimize the "good" and "bad" feelings, maximize pure intent, and maximize the felicitous feelings for almost 7 months now, and recently have finally begun making steady progress, and it is clear to me that however long it takes, I can do it with just this method.

So, for me and for other HAIETMOBA alone is enough, although often slight variations in ways of thinking about it occur. For example attentiveness and sensuousness are basically asking HAIETMOBA and doing two different things with the two different parts of the answer, with the physical part- simply seeing it, and with the affective part- attempting to change it to felicity so that the delight in the simple seeing of the physical is not impeded by intuitive grasping.

If you'd like to elaborate on what you mean by the heaviness not allowing you to stay with it, you may find as many others including myself have found that the DhO can help you through specific issues in your use of the method so that it can become effective for you, although the final responsibility lies in your choice, do you wish to rid the world of yourself and bring total peace into the universe or do you wish to continue attempting to selfishly and futilely manipulate this actual world and secure what it is that "you" want, which is simply to be, no matter the cost (the cost is suffering.)
Ash More Vegas, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 3 Join Date: 8/24/11 Recent Posts
adam h:


If you'd like to elaborate on what you mean by the heaviness not allowing you to stay with it, you may find as many others including myself have found that the DhO can help you through specific issues in your use of the method so that it can become effective for you, although the final responsibility lies in your choice, do you wish to rid the world of yourself and bring total peace into the universe or do you wish to continue attempting to selfishly and futilely manipulate this actual world and secure what it is that "you" want, which is simply to be, no matter the cost (the cost is suffering.)


Thanks for the pointers Adam and Simon.

There were times in life when i could practise with some kind of peace of mind. I seemed to make progress, say to at least A&P. Then slowly but surely, my outer life started falling apart. So with none of my old supports, however much of an illusion they were, my mind has gone into a kind of chatoic state where it can't focus itself enough to make any progress.

I seemed to have always had a bet each way. I still fed my ego and social identity, and thought i could keep that while making further inner progress.

The heavyness is just the active mind taking me away from the activity i am doing. Its like its frantically trying to put my life back together. I try to focus, but find it hard now, where before i could sit for a long time and focus.

I guess im looking for a roadmap back to some stability so i get enough stillness and clarity to apply a certain awareness excertise. My time is limited as i have a very busy job.

Its like HAIETMOBA is too abstract and i can't get to feeling good easily. I notice this for awhile then thoughts and emotions come in and focus is lost. I almost need some basic meditation excercise to bring the mind back to neutral, one that i can apply in my moment to moment life. Its like im in a dark night - where the old roads back to feeling good are blocked either because they are not available (situations in life prevent them) or they don't bring happyness any more (something is afraid of buying into the transient pleasure they bring)

Yes i want to rid myself of the selfish social identity, but perhaps not enough to commit enough to see through the fog. Hence i am stuck.
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Jon T, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/30/10 Recent Posts
Yes i want to rid myself of the selfish social identity, but perhaps not enough to commit enough to see through the fog. Hence i am stuck.


caveat: not AF, not VF

Talk with yourself throughout the day. This is a great skill to learn while dismantling the social identity. If you learn it now then it will become second nature by the time you reach the next stage and you'll be less likely to retreat back into social mores, old habits and counter-productive or, at best, delayful entertainments.

Divide yourself into two or more. Become we,us,our instead of i,me,you (even though you implies a second personality that second personality is often accusatory, mean as in 'you suck' or egotistical as in 'you're the man'). In this way, you become your own best friend and give yourself the support necessary to fly through each day. E.G.:

Eyes open in the morning. You say. "What do we have to do today." While still in bed or in the shower or on the can, you fully examine your list..calmly and any resentment (man i have to do this) can be talked away together (you and your friendly best friend,yourself), any emotional rashness, like oh i have to do this or my boss will kill me, can be examined fully. "What do we want for breakfast today? Toast and OJ would be delightful. Indeed it would." Do you see how that might bayou your spirits and engender a common sense toward your day. This may not be possible every day / every moment as there will be times when you want to be miserable or you forget to go through everything. But those times should become less and less frequent. I and other people claim that they have for us.

I think it would be good to do this while unraveling your social conditioning as well. "Why did we just get angry right then?" "Because that guy cut us off?" "Is our being one second late worth this hostile unpleasant emotion?" "No. It really isn't." "I don't think so either." / "why am i afraid of my boss's reaction?" "Because he may fire us." "Yea well one, he probably won't and two, being afraid won't help." "Your right." "Yes, so let's go over a game plan. What do we say? How do we mitigate this problem?"

And do this while getting back to sensuousness. ....continued from the above traffic incident...."Let's get back to appreciating this moment." "Okay. Let's do that." "Look at the sun gleaning off that car and the mountains in the background...Oh the sound of that guys breaks is delicious. It sure is. I like it too."


In this way, you unravel your social conditioning, cultivate felicity and learn how to get back to feeling good. You also approach life with greater clarity, more common sense. You have the support (your own self) to make this happen. And the next step, a taste of the instinctual passions, will be much easier if you have this skill. Don't get thrown by the methods cheesiness or delusional aspects (it's no more delusional than a fully intact self which, imo, no one has anyway...imo, everyone's self is fragmented - you're just making that work for you).
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Ash More Vegas:
adam h:


If you'd like to elaborate on what you mean by the heaviness not allowing you to stay with it, you may find as many others including myself have found that the DhO can help you through specific issues in your use of the method so that it can become effective for you, although the final responsibility lies in your choice, do you wish to rid the world of yourself and bring total peace into the universe or do you wish to continue attempting to selfishly and futilely manipulate this actual world and secure what it is that "you" want, which is simply to be, no matter the cost (the cost is suffering.)


Thanks for the pointers Adam and Simon.

There were times in life when i could practise with some kind of peace of mind. I seemed to make progress, say to at least A&P. Then slowly but surely, my outer life started falling apart. So with none of my old supports, however much of an illusion they were, my mind has gone into a kind of chatoic state where it can't focus itself enough to make any progress.

I seemed to have always had a bet each way. I still fed my ego and social identity, and thought i could keep that while making further inner progress.

The heavyness is just the active mind taking me away from the activity i am doing. Its like its frantically trying to put my life back together. I try to focus, but find it hard now, where before i could sit for a long time and focus.

I guess im looking for a roadmap back to some stability so i get enough stillness and clarity to apply a certain awareness excertise. My time is limited as i have a very busy job.

Its like HAIETMOBA is too abstract and i can't get to feeling good easily. I notice this for awhile then thoughts and emotions come in and focus is lost. I almost need some basic meditation excercise to bring the mind back to neutral, one that i can apply in my moment to moment life. Its like im in a dark night - where the old roads back to feeling good are blocked either because they are not available (situations in life prevent them) or they don't bring happyness any more (something is afraid of buying into the transient pleasure they bring)

Yes i want to rid myself of the selfish social identity, but perhaps not enough to commit enough to see through the fog. Hence i am stuck.


Hi Ash,

What I get from this is that what really gets in your way right now are certain feelings. Some heavy feelings even. These need to go.

Here's a tip: take one of those feelings, just one, and make it smaller. In your mind, make the bad feeling smaller. First a little bit, notice what that does to how you feel. Then a little bit more. Then, as you get used to it, maybe a bit faster and more of it disappearing.

Notice how that also affects how you feel. Now that the bad feeling is a bit smaller, how does that affect how you feel in general.

Keep practicing this. Do this with each bad feeling you have. Minimize them, and don't worry about eliminating them completely. Usually they fall away by themselves at one point anyway when you do this. But offcourse you are free to eliminate them completely if you can. emoticon

Start with one feeling and when it's been taken care of, go for the next one. And so on.
Ash More Vegas, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 3 Join Date: 8/24/11 Recent Posts
Jon T

Thanks for the advice - and for taking the time to think a bit out of the box there. Strangely enough - i was thinking along similar lines the the morning you wrote that - i should take advantage of the more forgiving side of myself and use these other personalities while they remain. It seems to expose how delusional and selfish that primary one is that takes on ownership of these burdens. It also encourages playfullness. I've tried it a bit and its been working to bring myself back to the moment.

Simon L

Thanks, that helps too. Whenever some clear space opens up i can put my awareness on felicity and sensuouness.

Both these things work well together - so thanks again guys, great community you have here. I'll let you know how i get on.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Ash More Vegas:
Jon T

Thanks for the advice - and for taking the time to think a bit out of the box there. Strangely enough - i was thinking along similar lines the the morning you wrote that - i should take advantage of the more forgiving side of myself and use these other personalities while they remain. It seems to expose how delusional and selfish that primary one is that takes on ownership of these burdens. It also encourages playfullness. I've tried it a bit and its been working to bring myself back to the moment.

Simon L

Thanks, that helps too. Whenever some clear space opens up i can put my awareness on felicity and sensuouness.

Both these things work well together - so thanks again guys, great community you have here. I'll let you know how i get on.


Good luck!
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Brian Eleven, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 221 Join Date: 9/14/10 Recent Posts
"I seemed to make progress, say to at least A&P. Then slowly but surely, my outer life started falling apart"

If you have indeed crossed the A&P, but not yet reached Stream Entry, you are in the dukkha nanas. This is not a nice place to spend an extended period of time. I would suggest you do whatever got you to A&P until you, at least, reach Stream Entry. Everything seems worse in DN. I'm an expert in nothing, but have read of many people suffering needlessly by getting stuck exactly where you may be.
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Bruno Loff, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Ash More Vegas:

There were times in life when i could practise with some kind of peace of mind. I seemed to make progress, say to at least A&P. Then slowly but surely, my outer life started falling apart. So with none of my old supports, however much of an illusion they were, my mind has gone into a kind of chatoic state where it can't focus itself enough to make any progress.

(...)

Its like im in a dark night - where the old roads back to feeling good are blocked either because they are not available (situations in life prevent them) or they don't bring happyness any more (something is afraid of buying into the transient pleasure they bring)

Yes i want to rid myself of the selfish social identity, but perhaps not enough to commit enough to see through the fog. Hence i am stuck.


This is dark night. The way I solved it when I got it was by reading MCTB (pdf available online), and meditating my ass off until I got stream entry. I did it in a retreat setting, with the guidance of a friend, by following the very helpful reformed slacker's guide to stream entry.

Consider the possibility that all of the dark stuff you see around you are actually caused by a cheap pair of sunglasses.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Bruno Loff:
Ash More Vegas:

There were times in life when i could practise with some kind of peace of mind. I seemed to make progress, say to at least A&P. Then slowly but surely, my outer life started falling apart. So with none of my old supports, however much of an illusion they were, my mind has gone into a kind of chatoic state where it can't focus itself enough to make any progress.

(...)

Its like im in a dark night - where the old roads back to feeling good are blocked either because they are not available (situations in life prevent them) or they don't bring happyness any more (something is afraid of buying into the transient pleasure they bring)

Yes i want to rid myself of the selfish social identity, but perhaps not enough to commit enough to see through the fog. Hence i am stuck.


This is dark night. The way I solved it when I got it was by reading MCTB (pdf available online), and meditating my ass off until I got stream entry. I did it in a retreat setting, with the guidance of a friend, by following the very helpful reformed slacker's guide to stream entry.

Consider the possibility that all of the dark stuff you see around you are actually caused by a cheap pair of sunglasses.



I've gone through the dark night, it's pretty horrible. My particular challenge was that I wanted to be over, so it seemed to start to be over, and then it came back full force. It went heavy on me.

But, what at the time seemed like time wasted, like living a horrible live while I grew older, turned out to be the thing that made me stronger than ever. I can now even handle it coming back full force. But there is no need.

Mine lasted 5-6 years, eventually climaxing the last few months. And now things are settling down. There is no horror that any process can inflict on me that would shake me. In fact, another dark night, all over again, couldn't take hold. It couldn't affect me.

And so can't many life circumstances. The DN has made me strong.

If it would get even worse, it would get into the area of being truly damaging. But the DN never is. And you know what, if life now gives me a true challenge, like getting seriously illl, I'll be able to handle it so much better because of the DN.

There were times where it was truly dark. And it would never end. Even knowing about the DN didn't help. Everyone can tell you what it is, but in it's deepest, hardest form, nothing helps.

But going through all that makes you come out a stronger person.

Just wanted to share, since the DN is the stage I'm most familiar with.
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Bruno Loff, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
And it is interesting to point out, particularly after the comments of Nad A. and Harry Potter, that Simon L's self-reported success with actualism has a context: it comes after him having successfully faced and dealt with the dark night (or the dark night having successfully dealt with him, which might be more appropriate emoticon ).

I'm not saying it is impossible to avoid, just that I know of absolutely no-one who skipped this step. If someone's progress in the path is particularly fast and pain-free, I would wager they had a very happy and relaxed life, by a mix of natural constitution and favorable circumstance, and have little work left to do. For the rest of us, it seems to require looking at the human condition in the eye. How could it be otherwise? Maybe one day we will have drugs that make it all happen on automatic emoticon

For me, meditation until stream-entry was the way out.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Bruno Loff:
And it is interesting to point out, particularly after the comments of Nad A. and Harry Potter, that Simon L's self-reported success with actualism has a context: it comes after him having successfully faced and dealt with the dark night (or the dark night having successfully dealt with him, which might be more appropriate emoticon ).

I'm not saying it is impossible to avoid, just that I know of absolutely no-one who skipped this step. If someone's progress in the path is particularly fast and pain-free, I would wager they had a very happy and relaxed life, by a mix of natural constitution and favorable circumstance, and have little work left to do. For the rest of us, it seems to require looking at the human condition in the eye. How could it be otherwise? Maybe one day we will have drugs that make it all happen on automatic emoticon

For me, meditation until stream-entry was the way out.


The dark night is too common to be ignored. It happened to me before I even knew what it was.

It's cunning in it's ways. Once you get to the point of knowing what it is and thinking "this is just the dark night, it'll pass", it will find, and have, ways to underline that belief.

I've been in the depths of it, filled with the knowledge that "this is good for me", "this is just the dark night", "it will pass". The last one bein the most heavy one.

But when the dark night hits, nothing that anyone has ever told you will work. No belief you have ever adapted will have real impact.

And yet, it ends, leaving you stronger. If you're in it right now, the idea of it ending seems like a wonderful idea. It won't until it's done though. You will suffer to the point of being stronger than ever. You will have had the heavy experiences you needed, which lead to insights.

The dark night is heavy. It teaches you things. It makes you stronger. It does a lot of good.

If you long for it to end, you are in for a disappointment. It will go on until you are crushed under it's pressure. Then the reassembly will begin.

The dark night will end, when you need it. Not when you want it. And when you come out, you will be very, I mean very grateful.

The phase after the dark night (and no, you can never force this, it will just happen), is a period of integration, healing. Taking the beating you just had and use it.

After the dark night of the soul there's healing. There's integration. There's growth.

Don't ever think you can force this though, the DN can't be guided.
Adam Bieber, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 112 Join Date: 5/22/10 Recent Posts
Damn, I barely remember dark night. Since I have progressed with Actualism, there seems to be no more stages. I think that doing Daniels MCTB Insight meditation with a strict goal to get stream entry will give you an ardor to meditate through dark night and land stream entry.

Pick what you want to do and go full force for it. I wanted stream entry before actualism practice so I focused all my efforts on insight meditation to get that done. I would see Dark Night sensations as not something that is you but something that is happening to you. Examine that happening as an objective watcher, and note it during meditation/whenever. Rise through the stage with a focused, attentive noting but not an "oh my god, I hope what I am doing is right" attitude. Chill, it will pass eventually with practice and mainly, follow the advice from MCTB and your own "intuition" of what you believe is working during meditation. By constant applied effort, you can be out of the dark night in weeks or sooner.

When I was doing meditation during dark night. I meditated 30 minute sessions like three or 4 times per day. By doing short sessions, I was able to really focus during them and then if i wanted to stop, I stopped. You'll get out of this eventually, so act and think like you know you will. Oh, and I'd go for stream entry after dark night. You can meditate fairly easily through equanimity to stream entry with insight meditation, IME.

Then start actualism practice, lol jk idk if you want to
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Adam Bieber:
Damn, I barely remember dark night. Since I have progressed with Actualism, there seems to be no more stages. I think that doing Daniels MCTB Insight meditation with a strict goal to get stream entry will give you an ardor to meditate through dark night and land stream entry.

Pick what you want to do and go full force for it. I wanted stream entry before actualism practice so I focused all my efforts on insight meditation to get that done. I would see Dark Night sensations as not something that is you but something that is happening to you. Examine that happening as an objective watcher, and note it during meditation/whenever. Rise through the stage with a focused, attentive noting but not an "oh my god, I hope what I am doing is right" attitude. Chill, it will pass eventually with practice and mainly, follow the advice from MCTB and your own "intuition" of what you believe is working during meditation. By constant applied effort, you can be out of the dark night in weeks or sooner.

When I was doing meditation during dark night. I meditated 30 minute sessions like three or 4 times per day. By doing short sessions, I was able to really focus during them and then if i wanted to stop, I stopped. You'll get out of this eventually, so act and think like you know you will. Oh, and I'd go for stream entry after dark night. You can meditate fairly easily through equanimity to stream entry with insight meditation, IME.

Then start actualism practice, lol jk idk if you want to


In hindsight I'm happy with my DN experience. It was like the drill sergeant that did not stop until I was broken down completely (though not damaged). But open to transformation. And it has made me stronger.

Guess it's what I needed.
Nad A., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 237 Join Date: 8/26/10 Recent Posts
Simon L:
Guess it's what I needed.


Just want to call your attention to what could be a belief to investigate. A few times in this thread you've written as if there's some inherent intelligence to the universe or some higher mind that knows best.

The dark night will end, when you need it.


and in your new practice thread:

my mind wanted to teach me a lesson I wouldn't forget.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Nad A.:
Simon L:
Guess it's what I needed.


Just want to call your attention to what could be a belief to investigate. A few times in this thread you've written as if there's some inherent intelligence to the universe or some higher mind that knows best.

The dark night will end, when you need it.


and in your new practice thread:

my mind wanted to teach me a lesson I wouldn't forget.


To be honest, I do belief in a higher power (God if you will), that makes these things happen to those who choose to be on that path (free will meeting Divine intervention).

I do believe in forces outside myself that have an effect. Even though I don't know what those forces are, but I have seen them manifest over and over again.

I used to not believe in that stuff. Wanted prove. But what I've gotten is so near to prove as to it being undeniable.

So now I've even given my AF practice, and any other practice to that higher power, trusting it will get me to the ultimate end point, whatever that is.

I'm not a believer, I'm a skeptic. I have been convinced over and over again.

Anyone is free to share this belief or not.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Btw, I just read my reply and it comes across as being a bit heavy and intense. I did not mean it to be like that.

After testing, and challenging this higher power, it has proven to me it exists at about 90%. Maybe 3% is a personal doubt problem. Maybe 3% is a confusion/disbelief/not understanding problem. So at 96%, with winning streaks perfectly timed constantly, I tend to belief in this higher power.
Nad A., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 237 Join Date: 8/26/10 Recent Posts
Simon L:
Btw, I just read my reply and it comes across as being a bit heavy and intense. I did not mean it to be like that.

After testing, and challenging this higher power, it has proven to me it exists at about 90%. Maybe 3% is a personal doubt problem. Maybe 3% is a confusion/disbelief/not understanding problem. So at 96%, with winning streaks perfectly timed constantly, I tend to belief in this higher power.


Well obviously this is not the place for a god debate but if you still want to practice actualism then you should probably read more of the AF site as pertains to 'beliefs' and 'trust' and if you're interested, there are bits on god-beliefs too.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Nad A.:
Simon L:
Btw, I just read my reply and it comes across as being a bit heavy and intense. I did not mean it to be like that.

After testing, and challenging this higher power, it has proven to me it exists at about 90%. Maybe 3% is a personal doubt problem. Maybe 3% is a confusion/disbelief/not understanding problem. So at 96%, with winning streaks perfectly timed constantly, I tend to belief in this higher power.


Well obviously this is not the place for a god debate but if you still want to practice actualism then you should probably read more of the AF site as pertains to 'beliefs' and 'trust' and if you're interested, there are bits on god-beliefs too.


Yeah, not the place for it indeed.

I did always remind myself that unless you know something as fact, a belief can be false. Experiences that support that belief can be coincidences.

So I'm not too attached to this belief; if it turns out to be incorrect, oh well.

I'll look through the AF site on this topic as you suggested. Why did I never think of that? emoticon Thanks for the idea.

There is a book by Bernadette Roberts - The Experience of no Self -, which at first reads like an account of a woman who is mentally ill. She seems darn nice, but not quite in touch with reality. Until you read it all the way to the end. Then it becomes a lucid spiritual end point for her.

The reason I'm bringing this up is because she also experienced exactly what Richard is experiencing. Somewhere in there she describes living as the senses alone. Her description quite accurately matches Richard's.

The difference for her is that it was a stage after which she went further so an end point where she found the true reality of God. Keep in mind that her background already was highly religious, so that may have affected her experiences.

Anyway, for any actualist I do recommend it. There is a certain point in her story where it matches AF.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Also, I recommend her book What is Self? It's fascinating from an AF perspective.

Some quotes:

The whole point is that as long as consciousness remains, it functions
in conjunction with the senses and does not allow for “pure” sensory knowing.
Thus we must keep in mind that apart from consciousness or separate
from it, the senses have their own way-of-knowing and partake of a dimension
of existence not available to consciousness.

---

Also, pure sensory knowing is neither a
different type of consciousness nor a different level of the same; rather, it is a
totally different system or way of knowing—virtually a different dimension of
existence. Pure sensory knowing bears no resemblance to the knowing, experiencing
dimension of consciousness. Obviously there are more ways of knowing
than that of consciousness.

---

What remains beyond self is obviously the body and senses—now, “pure”
sensory perception.

---

Lot's of fascinating stuff in there. Does have a religious thread through it, which is interesting for a change.

EDIT: She also speaks of a knowing-self, and a feeling self and stuff like that. There are many correlations between her work and Richard's it seems.
Nad A., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 237 Join Date: 8/26/10 Recent Posts
Simon L:
Yeah, not the place for it indeed.

I did always remind myself that unless you know something as fact, a belief can be false. Experiences that support that belief can be coincidences.

So I'm not too attached to this belief; if it turns out to be incorrect, oh well.

I'll look through the AF site on this topic as you suggested. Why did I never think of that? emoticon Thanks for the idea.

There is a book by Bernadette Roberts - The Experience of no Self -, which at first reads like an account of a woman who is mentally ill. She seems darn nice, but not quite in touch with reality. Until you read it all the way to the end. Then it becomes a lucid spiritual end point for her..


Hmm, well, looks like you have your work cut out for you. Use the handy google search facility... search for:

site:www.actualfreedom.com.au "bernadette"
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Nad A.:
Simon L:
Yeah, not the place for it indeed.

I did always remind myself that unless you know something as fact, a belief can be false. Experiences that support that belief can be coincidences.

So I'm not too attached to this belief; if it turns out to be incorrect, oh well.

I'll look through the AF site on this topic as you suggested. Why did I never think of that? emoticon Thanks for the idea.

There is a book by Bernadette Roberts - The Experience of no Self -, which at first reads like an account of a woman who is mentally ill. She seems darn nice, but not quite in touch with reality. Until you read it all the way to the end. Then it becomes a lucid spiritual end point for her..


Hmm, well, looks like you have your work cut out for you. Use the handy google search facility... search for:

site:www.actualfreedom.com.au "bernadette"


Thanks. I've started going through this.

One concern I have about AF is that it may be based on false logic and assumptions. I quote from http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/actualism/vineeto/selected-writings/universe.htm

"One evening, when talking and musing about the universe, I fully comprehended that this physical universe is actually infinite. The universe being without boundaries or an edge means that it is impossible, practically, for God to exist. In order to have created the universe or to be in control of it God would have to exist outside of it – and there is no outside! This insight hit me like a thunderbolt."

This is not about the content of the insight Vineeto had, it just coincidentally happened to be about God. But the reasoning is obviously flawed. This is not meant as criticism but mere observation.

My concern is, if on the path to AF one comes to flawed conclusions, would that not mean that Richard is possibly wrong about a lot of things?
Nad A., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 237 Join Date: 8/26/10 Recent Posts
Simon L:

My concern is, if on the path to AF one comes to flawed conclusions, would that not mean that Richard is possibly wrong about a lot of things?


Yep. There are quite a few silly/unreasonable things Richard and co have written.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Nad A.:
Simon L:

My concern is, if on the path to AF one comes to flawed conclusions, would that not mean that Richard is possibly wrong about a lot of things?


Yep. There are quite a few silly/unreasonable things Richard and co have written.


And that concerns me.

My impression, honestly, is that Richard is locked in a state of being that seems perfect and fully explained while you're in it, like a good trip, but in reality does not add up.

I've had this impression for a while, but was willing to give it a chance.

The PCE's (and I've had some fully now), seem like the ultimate thing, but only if you fool yourself into believing that.

The entity, with all it's potential problems, is supposed to be there. The problematic parts of it just shouldn't be.

I am close to closing the door on AF.
Bodhi Yogi Dharma, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 6 Join Date: 9/1/11 Recent Posts
Seeing the egolessness of all things isn't the end of the path (6th stage of Arhat, identity is no more, not merely a disengagement or dissociation, but a dissolving). Many people here practicing AF claim to still experience pain and fatigue and various forms of mental unpleasantness. This is not the enlightenment of Arhat (7th stage of Arhat 99% of unpleasantness is gone Subtle habit energy remains, delusion & attachment & aversion of the subtlest orders. Pain & fatigue & sorrow etc have ceased entirely at this point

No one on this website appears to have reached the nirvana that is the known of sravikahood.



May the highest peace stay with all sentient beings!
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Bruno Loff, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Bodhi Yogi Dharma:
Many people here practicing AF claim to still experience pain and fatigue and various forms of mental unpleasantness. This is not the enlightenment of Arhat (7th stage of Arhat 99% of unpleasantness is gone Subtle habit energy remains, delusion & attachment & aversion of the subtlest orders. Pain & fatigue & sorrow etc have ceased entirely at this point

No one on this website appears to have reached the nirvana that is the known of sravikahood.


Actually free people report that they experience no emotional pain, and in particular no sorrow, attachment, craving or aversion whatsoever.

What do you mean by no pain? If I were to cut this person with a knife he would feel no pain?

What do you mean by no fatigue? Could this person run for 1000 hours straight?

Are these just beliefs on your part or do you know someone who has reached the point of having no physical pain and no fatigue?
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: a way out of suffering...?

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Ash More Vegas:
Hi Everybody.

I am new to this site, however i have done my fair share of reading the actual freedom website and Buddhist literature. I have done two 10 day meditation retreats, and practiced with various teachers.

I have also had a few Peak experiences or PCE's playing tennis, and others spread out at spontaneous moments.

I have recently had cancer, left my social network and returned to my hometown. I have recovered from it ..but lost alot of confidence i used to have. Not so much due to the illness, i got through that well at the time...but more the after effects - things like losing hair, financial situation, breaking up with g/f, being back at home etc. The thing is, most of what i thought i had gained due to insights and experiences, hasn't held up under pressure.

I realize this site is for serious practitioners - and i see that my only solution is to go deep and start again. I am just looking for some advice where to start as i am suffering quite alot now. Any exercises that have really helped someone get out of a bad spot - and on the road to clarity and towards AF?

HAIETMBA is good, but the heaviness sometimes doesn't allow me to stay with it.

Many thanks emoticon


Hi Ash,

I'm not very experienced with this myself (5 weeks), but have made some progress. Take my advice as coming from that position. I want to give it though, in case it helps.

HAIETMOBA

How Am I Experiencing This Moment Of Being Alive?

Currently you experience this moment of being alive in a certain way. Just noticing what that is, right now, in this moment, can get you some leverage.

You have mentioned a lot of things about your current situation. One that jumped out to me was:

"The thing is, most of what i thought i had gained due to insights and experiences, hasn't held up under pressure. "

Look into this. Examine this with HAIETMOBA. If you can take away the things that make it so that the confidence and insights etc., don't fall apart anymore, you'll be in a much better position to progress.

What is the thing that gets in the way of you keeping your confidence, insights and all the good things you've gained?

May be several things, I don't know. But examine those.

And about this:

"HAIETMBA is good, but the heaviness sometimes doesn't allow me to stay with it."

I recognize that as well. The key, for me, lies in applying the method to that heaviness as well anyway, if only for a moment. If you can't keep it up, don't sweat it. Continue when you can. Even if it's short moments at first, those moments will help.

And some really heavy stuff doesn't go away instantly. And you have quite some heavy stuff. But each and everytime you do at least something of the method, you take a step forward. I've had a thing that I thought I would never get over. But kept going at it anyway. And to my surprised, first. it loosened up a bit, got lighter. And then gradually, with my continued effort, it kept getting less bad. It's still there a bit, but at a point that I know it will go.

Anyway, as I said, beginner here, but maybe this helps.