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Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? M 11/28/20 3:22 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Helen Pohl 11/28/20 3:05 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/11/20 1:56 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/18/20 6:03 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/18/20 1:12 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/18/20 1:48 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/18/20 4:36 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Helen Pohl 12/20/20 5:02 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/20/20 5:06 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Chris Marti 11/28/20 3:28 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? M 11/28/20 6:55 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Chris Marti 11/29/20 8:19 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Brandon Dayton 11/29/20 10:04 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? M 11/29/20 9:40 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? George S 11/30/20 6:53 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Brandon Dayton 11/30/20 9:48 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? George S 11/30/20 10:39 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Brandon Dayton 11/30/20 5:51 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/10/20 10:41 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Brandon Dayton 12/11/20 12:31 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? George S 12/11/20 1:01 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Siavash 12/11/20 1:13 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/11/20 1:34 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/11/20 2:09 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/18/20 5:47 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? George S 12/18/20 6:04 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/18/20 6:11 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? George S 12/18/20 6:34 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/18/20 1:44 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? George S 12/18/20 5:15 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/18/20 1:21 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/18/20 1:50 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/18/20 4:23 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/19/20 1:20 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/19/20 1:59 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? George S 12/19/20 2:42 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? George S 12/19/20 2:43 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/26/20 1:37 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/26/20 2:28 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/30/20 11:36 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/18/20 2:00 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Tim Farrington 12/18/20 6:11 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/18/20 1:24 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/18/20 1:17 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Brandon Dayton 12/11/20 2:55 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? George S 12/18/20 4:54 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Tim Farrington 12/18/20 4:59 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? George S 12/18/20 5:03 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/11/20 1:28 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? M 12/4/20 1:37 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? George S 12/11/20 11:30 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Chris Marti 11/30/20 8:30 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Brandon Dayton 11/30/20 9:41 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Tim Farrington 12/1/20 4:32 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? M 12/4/20 1:27 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Edward 11/30/20 2:30 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Ni Nurta 11/29/20 11:38 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Jim Smith 11/28/20 6:11 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? M 11/28/20 7:05 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Jim Smith 11/29/20 12:23 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/10/20 7:03 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Martin 11/28/20 9:55 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? M 11/28/20 10:03 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Martin 11/28/20 10:58 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? terry 12/10/20 6:45 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Yuri K 12/19/20 2:50 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Yuri K 12/19/20 2:57 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/19/20 4:03 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Yuri K 12/19/20 4:59 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/19/20 6:01 PM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Tim Farrington 12/20/20 5:57 AM
RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/20/20 4:54 AM
I feel confused about how to apply meditative insights in my relationships and would really appreciate some guidance.

I repeatedly find myself getting upset by the same thing. If I feel like someone is brushing off my emotions, it triggers thoughts like "No one cares about me" and "They should take my emotions seriously".
 
Over the past few years, I've tried to deal with this by making concrete changes in my relationships. I've cultivated friendships with people who are genuinely kind. I've practiced Nonviolent Communication so that I can communicate with and empathize with others more effectively. I've learned to spot "red flags" that I used to ignore.
 
Yet, I still find myself getting upset by the same thing over and over and over again. I'm tired of suffering for the same reason. In the moments when it doesn't wreck me emotionally and make me feel sadness and fear about being alone in the world, it's such a repetitive thought that it can honestly get boring. 
 
On one level, I can see that this is a problem that is within my control to solve. Not by changing others, but by changing my own mind. If I didn't give as much weight to the thought "they should be acting differently", I'd almost definitely feel much better (shoutout to Byron Katie).
 
However, I worry that not taking this thought seriously would turn me into a pushover. I've struggled in the past with putting my own emotions on the backburner for the sake of others and have been trying not to do this. I know that addressing this thought more directly would benefit me, not just the people who don't want to do what I ask of them. But I still feel a resistance to becoming okay with what they're doing. I'm not entirely sure how to tell whether I'm primarily changing my relationship to my thoughts for their sake or for my own. I am also aware of the thought "It's bad to be a pushover" and am not sure how much weight to give to it.
 
What's the balance between asking/wanting others to accommodate my feelings and taking responsibility for my own feelings?

Note: If anyone's interested in this topic, I'd recommend the Ram Dass Here and Now podcast Ep. 17 is on the Yoga of Relationships. It's excellent at characterizing the general issue but doesn't get much into how to practice this. 

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/28/20 3:05 PM as a reply to M.
If you set clear boundaries with people, and stand by them, no one will be able to push you around. 

It can be uncomfortable as hell at first when people react to your new behaviour, but it'll be worth it in the long run. emoticon

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/28/20 3:28 PM as a reply to M.
What's the balance between asking/wanting others to accommodate my feelings and taking responsibility for my own feelings?

How do you make others accommodate your feelings? And by "make" I mean force. Can you describe the process you have in mind? Also, how is making others responsible for your feelings going to help you to not be a pushover? Seems to me it's only going to expose you to more anxiety and potential manipulation by others.

I'm genuinely curious about how you see this working.


RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/28/20 6:11 PM as a reply to M.
M:

...
However, I worry that not taking this thought seriously would turn me into a pushover. I've struggled in the past with putting my own emotions on the backburner for the sake of others and have been trying not to do this. I know that addressing this thought more directly would benefit me, not just the people who don't want to do what I ask of them. But I still feel a resistance to becoming okay with what they're doing. I'm not entirely sure how to tell whether I'm primarily changing my relationship to my thoughts for their sake or for my own. I am also aware of the thought "It's bad to be a pushover" and am not sure how much weight to give to it.
 
What's the balance between asking/wanting others to accommodate my feelings and taking responsibility for my own feelings?

Note: If anyone's interested in this topic, I'd recommend the Ram Dass Here and Now podcast Ep. 17 is on the Yoga of Relationships. It's excellent at characterizing the general issue but doesn't get much into how to practice this. 


If you haven't done something like this before it's worth a try, ask your self: "Why am I feeling this way?" If you get an answer, ask it again, because sometimes there are layers of reasons, so keep digging and see if you can get to the bottom of it. Sometimes the "suffering" is not caused by the emotion you think is causing it, but is caused by reluctance to face some deeper truth. At the bottom of it all you might find "surrendering" helps, accepting the unpleasant facts that you were previously unwilling recognize. It might be that you have to accept you were a victim, or you did something wrong, or you failed, etc. I can't say for sure this is your situation but repeated "hot button" emotions are sometimes caused by this.

And being non-attached doesn't mean you become a pushover. It means you can react to situations with compassion and logic rather than with unpleasant emotions. The unpleasant emotions only cloud your judgement. You don't have to let people do harm, but you can respond in a smarter way. In fact,  you are less likely to get stuck in a dysfunctional relationship if you have the clarity of mind to recognize when you should end it or avoid it in the first place. You are more likely to be a pushover if suppressed thoughts are causing you to act in illogical ways and you don't understand your own behavior.

And being non-attached doesn't necessarily mean you don't have emotions, sometimes it just means you are not attached to them. Emotions don't necessarily disappear, but they don't have the same power. When your mind is not turbulent, you don't to react with thoughts that reinforce unpleasant emotions. Emotions just appear from the unconscious as physical sensations in your body, but they don't have as much effect on your mind. 

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/28/20 6:55 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
What's the balance between asking/wanting others to accommodate my feelings and taking responsibility for my own feelings?

How do you make others accommodate your feelings? And by "make" I mean force. Can you describe the process you have in mind? Also, how is making others responsible for your feelings going to help you to not be a pushover? Seems to me it's only going to expose you to more anxiety and potential manipulation by others.

I'm genuinely curious about how you see this working.

I can't force others to accommodate my feelings. But I can request that they do so in a very nonconfrontational way that is more likely to make them comply (relative to screaming at them, for example) if they're receptive to my emotions to begin with. 

I'm basically thinking of the process of standing up for myself. For example, if I friend says he'll call me back but doesn't, I can say something like "When you didn't call me back even though you said you would, I felt hurt. Could you please not say you'll do things if you're not going to follow through?" But then if the friend does it repeatedly, even after saying he won't, I feel stuck. And that's when I wonder -- do I keep bringing up the same thing? Or do I adjust so that it doesn't irritate me to the same degree or lead me into a spiral of thoughts about how inconsiderate my friend is and how little he cares about me? Or do I walk away from the relationship, at least temporarily until I can be in it without being upset? 

I don't want to make others fully responsible for my feelings, but I do want them to take my feelings into account. Maybe that is making others responsible for them - I'm not sure. And yes, you're right that this causes me anxiety. I'm curious how you see it contributing to manipulation as well?

Does that answer your questions? 

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/28/20 7:05 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
M:

...
However, I worry that not taking this thought seriously would turn me into a pushover. I've struggled in the past with putting my own emotions on the backburner for the sake of others and have been trying not to do this. I know that addressing this thought more directly would benefit me, not just the people who don't want to do what I ask of them. But I still feel a resistance to becoming okay with what they're doing. I'm not entirely sure how to tell whether I'm primarily changing my relationship to my thoughts for their sake or for my own. I am also aware of the thought "It's bad to be a pushover" and am not sure how much weight to give to it.

If you haven't done something like this before it's worth a try, ask your self: "Why am I feeling this way?" If you get an answer, ask it again, because sometimes there are layers of reasons, so keep digging and see if you can get to the bottom of it. Sometimes the "suffering" is not caused by the emotion you think is causing it, but is caused by reluctance to face some deeper truth. At the bottom of it all you might find "surrendering" helps, accepting the unpleasant facts that you were previously unwilling recognize. It might be that you have to accept you were a victim, or you did something wrong, or you failed, etc. I can't say for sure this is your situation but repeated "hot button" emotions are sometimes caused by this.

And being non-attached doesn't mean you become a pushover. It means you can react to situations with compassion and logic rather than with unpleasant emotions. The unpleasant emotions only cloud your judgement. You don't have to let people do harm, but you can respond in a smarter way. In fact,  you are less likely to get stuck in a dysfunctional relationship if you have the clarity of mind to recognize when you should end it or avoid it in the first place. You are more likely to be a pushover if suppressed thoughts are causing you to act in illogical ways and you don't understand your own behavior.

And being non-attached doesn't necessarily mean you don't have emotions, sometimes it just means you are not attached to them. Emotions don't necessarily disappear, but they don't have the same power. When your mind is not turbulent, you don't to react with thoughts that reinforce unpleasant emotions. Emotions just appear from the unconscious as physical sensations in your body, but they don't have as much effect on your mind. 
Thanks for that suggestion. I've been trying to do that a lot lately - are you familiar with Eugene Gendlin's technique Focusing? I've been doing a mix of that and vipassana to try to get to the root of the issue. The main thing I've come up with through that process has been that I have a deep, unsatisfied desire to feel cared about and have others take my emotions seriously. Not that this matters, but I can rationally see how it ties into my parents being emotionally neglectful and not having certain emotional needs met. Maybe there's an underlying desire that's deeper than this, but I haven't been able to find it yet. 

The effort I've put into becoming a better communicator has been an attempt at responding in a smarter way. The thing that I'm still unsure of based on what you said is -- what does it mean for someone to do harm? Depending on my own personal preferences, the same behavior in another person can seem harmful or not. For example, when a friend of mine doesn't call me back when he says he would, I feel really hurt and feel like he doesn't value me to the same degree I value him. If I didn't call him back when I said I would, he wouldn't care. He knows this kind of thing upsets me, but he's still forgetful and flaky. Is he harming me in this situation? It's clear to me what merits "harm" in cases of physical/sexual abuse, but (fortunately) the situations I'm dealing with aren't that extreme. 

I agree with what you said about emotions having less power. I've definitely noticed that. Which is why I'm able to post a long, somewhat esoteric post about relationships on this site instead of spending my time yelling at my friends who have upset me lately. emoticon

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/28/20 9:55 PM as a reply to M.
Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Not to a greater extent than accepting the weather as it is will turn you into a pushover. Consider that you can accept the weather as it is without letting the weather be the boss of you. You can sit out the weather you don't like, dress for it, move, etc. The same is true with people. Once we accept how someone generally is, we can plan our interactions (if any) with them in a sensible way that takes into consideration how they generally are. 

It is also an option to try and change what goes on in other people's minds. But that's really hard and rarely works anyway. I've been working for years at changing what goes on in my own mind and my success is only middling. Other people's minds are much more difficult to work with. By and large, you have to be a saint (or something else) to go down that road. 

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/28/20 10:03 PM as a reply to Martin.
Martin:
Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Once we accept how someone generally is, we can plan our interactions (if any) with them in a sensible way that takes into consideration how they generally are. 

Thank you. This is a very useful way of looking at things. I guess that means it's on me to decide what I can/cannot handle at any given moment. I think sometimes I make the mistake of thinking that seeing people as they are means I have to accept whatever they do. To go back to your weather analogy, if there's massive hail, I should probably stay inside instead of basking in it. 

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/28/20 10:58 PM as a reply to M.
Yes, that's exactly how I see it.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/29/20 12:23 AM as a reply to M.
M:
Jim Smith:

If you haven't done something like this before it's worth a try, ask your self: "Why am I feeling this way?" If you get an answer, ask it again, because sometimes there are layers of reasons, so keep digging and see if you can get to the bottom of it. Sometimes the "suffering" is not caused by the emotion you think is causing it, but is caused by reluctance to face some deeper truth. At the bottom of it all you might find "surrendering" helps, accepting the unpleasant facts that you were previously unwilling recognize. It might be that you have to accept you were a victim, or you did something wrong, or you failed, etc. I can't say for sure this is your situation but repeated "hot button" emotions are sometimes caused by this.

And being non-attached doesn't mean you become a pushover. It means you can react to situations with compassion and logic rather than with unpleasant emotions. The unpleasant emotions only cloud your judgement. You don't have to let people do harm, but you can respond in a smarter way. In fact,  you are less likely to get stuck in a dysfunctional relationship if you have the clarity of mind to recognize when you should end it or avoid it in the first place. You are more likely to be a pushover if suppressed thoughts are causing you to act in illogical ways and you don't understand your own behavior.

And being non-attached doesn't necessarily mean you don't have emotions, sometimes it just means you are not attached to them. Emotions don't necessarily disappear, but they don't have the same power. When your mind is not turbulent, you don't to react with thoughts that reinforce unpleasant emotions. Emotions just appear from the unconscious as physical sensations in your body, but they don't have as much effect on your mind. 
Thanks for that suggestion. I've been trying to do that a lot lately - are you familiar with Eugene Gendlin's technique Focusing? I've been doing a mix of that and vipassana to try to get to the root of the issue. The main thing I've come up with through that process has been that I have a deep, unsatisfied desire to feel cared about and have others take my emotions seriously. Not that this matters, but I can rationally see how it ties into my parents being emotionally neglectful and not having certain emotional needs met. Maybe there's an underlying desire that's deeper than this, but I haven't been able to find it yet. 

The effort I've put into becoming a better communicator has been an attempt at responding in a smarter way. The thing that I'm still unsure of based on what you said is -- what does it mean for someone to do harm? Depending on my own personal preferences, the same behavior in another person can seem harmful or not. For example, when a friend of mine doesn't call me back when he says he would, I feel really hurt and feel like he doesn't value me to the same degree I value him. If I didn't call him back when I said I would, he wouldn't care. He knows this kind of thing upsets me, but he's still forgetful and flaky. Is he harming me in this situation? It's clear to me what merits "harm" in cases of physical/sexual abuse, but (fortunately) the situations I'm dealing with aren't that extreme. 

I agree with what you said about emotions having less power. I've definitely noticed that. Which is why I'm able to post a long, somewhat esoteric post about relationships on this site instead of spending my time yelling at my friends who have upset me lately. emoticon

With regards to harm, I think in the sitation you referr to, it's a gray area, you have to assess whether it's really just the way he is and if you are willing to tolerate it. All relationships to some extent require tolerance and conpromise. No one is 100% perfect and no two people are 100% compatible. 

But also keep in mind, to some extent, more or less, "I forgot" means "I don't care". If $1,000,000 were at stake he wouldn't forget to make the call. 

In the situation like you decribe, I would make the call rather than waiting for the other person. If they do care and just forgot, they will be glad you called. If you try to compensate for their flakiness by making the call and they find other ways of putting you off, it might mean they don't care and not that they are "forgetful". 

As a general rule I don't think it's a good idea to try to change people, if you are going to be friends with someone, take them as they are. But when you are trying to assess the situation and need to collect data, it's okay to put some pressure on them to see how they react. If there is a price for not calling what happens? 

I don't think it's a good idea to be a pushover even if you are fully enlightened and nothing hurts you. When you let another person behave badly you are not helping them. Also being non-attached will help you let go of a bad relationship if that is appropriate. But you have to balance that with what I said above about tolerance and compromise. It depends too much on the specifics of the situaiton that I don't know enough about, so I can only give general comments..

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/29/20 8:19 AM as a reply to M.
I can't force others to accommodate my feelings. But I can request that they do so in a very nonconfrontational way that is more likely to make them comply (relative to screaming at them, for example) if they're receptive to my emotions to begin with. 

Your language reveals your purpose, i.e.; "comply."  Anyway, I think yours is a psychological issue, not a dharma issue.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/29/20 10:04 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I can't force others to accommodate my feelings. But I can request that they do so in a very nonconfrontational way that is more likely to make them comply (relative to screaming at them, for example) if they're receptive to my emotions to begin with. 

Your language reveals your purpose, i.e.; "comply."  Anyway, I think yours is a psychological issue, not a dharma issue.
Agreed. This issue is a much better fit for therapy. As a general rule, I would say that if the issue involves relationships, it is not a dharma problem.The fact that you are getting triggered by the same pattern over and over again suggests that there is something deeper that needs to be addressed. I'm currently working through some similar stuff and my therapist has recommended inner child work. I'm starting with this:

https://www.johnbradshaw.com/books/homecoming-reclaiming-and-healing-your-inner-child

No experience with it yet, but my therapist is excellent, so I'm going in with a certain degree of confidence. I'll report back once I have more to say.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/29/20 11:38 AM as a reply to M.
M:

I'm basically thinking of the process of standing up for myself. For example, if I friend says he'll call me back but doesn't, I can say something like "When you didn't call me back even though you said you would, I felt hurt. Could you please not say you'll do things if you're not going to follow through?" But then if the friend does it repeatedly, even after saying he won't, I feel stuck. And that's when I wonder -- do I keep bringing up the same thing? Or do I adjust so that it doesn't irritate me to the same degree or lead me into a spiral of thoughts about how inconsiderate my friend is and how little he cares about me? Or do I walk away from the relationship, at least temporarily until I can be in it without being upset?
Imho if you are to bring such topics this should be quickly mentioned with momentary stronger emphasis on it, like stronger angrier and obviously louder voice and then not go about saying things like "I felt hurt" but immediately go to completely different topic with friendly attitude so that they see you do not expect their response about them not calling but about this different topic and any response they give they give can embedd as part of talking about something else. It will make you look cool emoticon

Internally do the same. Though about someone doing somethign wrong should be strong and loud and directed at these peoople like they could somehow hear you and otherwise it should be short and lack all the following "I feel hurt" and all the other nonsense.

Other than that I do not understand what is the issue. Someone not calling you mean you have more time to watch Netflix/anime/YT or play computer games. Imgo win win win situation emoticon

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/29/20 9:40 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I can't force others to accommodate my feelings. But I can request that they do so in a very nonconfrontational way that is more likely to make them comply (relative to screaming at them, for example) if they're receptive to my emotions to begin with. 

Your language reveals your purpose, i.e.; "comply."  Anyway, I think yours is a psychological issue, not a dharma issue.
How are you distinguishing between the two? Asking so that I have a better sense of what types of things are seen as appropriate for this forum.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/30/20 2:30 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I can't force others to accommodate my feelings. But I can request that they do so in a very nonconfrontational way that is more likely to make them comply (relative to screaming at them, for example) if they're receptive to my emotions to begin with. 

Your language reveals your purpose, i.e.; "comply."  Anyway, I think yours is a psychological issue, not a dharma issue.


Yup this is a dharma forum- not a place to discuss ethics:
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/21727966#_19_message_21727431

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/30/20 6:53 AM as a reply to M.
I think you could probably benefit from some good therapy (like many of us emoticon) but there's also a dharmic perspective on your problem which may be helpful - in terms of elements and realms. Your need for others to constantly recognize your feelings is earth element - a need for emotional security due to the neglect (void element) you suffered as a child. This has plunged you into the hungry ghost realm - an insatiable need for emotional reciprocation from others, a need to "control" or "comply" as you say.

I'm going to say something a bit controversial here, which is that in general it's a bad idea to expect other people to care about your feelings per se unless you fill some complementary emotional need for them. Your flaky friend who never calls back actually cares about your feelings very much, but from the opposite perspective - the water element - his reaction is reckless disregard in response to feeling threatened by your neediness. The two of your are locked in a kharmic embrace where your neediness and his recklessness are feeding off each other. We've all had friends who care about us less than we care about them, but we tolerate this for a while because they offer some other benefit (charisma, status, beauty, excitement etc.) Eventually we get tired of giving or needing, stop calling and drift apart. Others are right to point out that your dynamic is unlikely to change within this relationship at this time. My father had a needy relationship for a couple of years with a girl when he was 19, she reached out 30 years later, they got back together for a few years and split up again for exactly the same reason.

You might actually find someone who appears to care
deeply about your emotions, but they could be acting
our their own neediness. We've all seen couples who are totally devoted to each other to the exclusion of everyone else - that's not healthy either and doesn't end well. One dies before the other and the survivor's world comes to and end, or else they have kids and suddenly the woman cares more about the child and the man feels totally abandoned, or else they keep feeding off each other and ignore the kids which fucks them up.
 
The dharmic solution is to go straight to the source and examine your earth element reaction and hungry ghost realm. You meditate on that feeling of neediness, that need for emotional security, and see how it leeds you into insatiable feeding on others who can't reciprocate. This can be hard to do because the neediness may appear to get worse at first as you bring it under the spotlight of awareness. The reaction pattern will literally fight for survival as its viewed as a core part of "who you are" coming under threat. That's why it could be helpful to have a good therapist or teacher. You could start with the books Wake Up To Your Life (Chapter 5) and Spectrum Of Ecstasy to get an idea of what's involved and what kind of support you might need. But eventually you will learn to see how the thing works in real time and be liberated from being compelled to behave in the same pre-conditioned way.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/30/20 8:30 AM as a reply to M.
How are you distinguishing between the two? Asking so that I have a better sense of what types of things are seen as appropriate for this forum.

I'm not telling anyone they can't discuss psychology, which is the study of human behavior, both conscious and unconscious. It's a huge area, obviously. Dharma practice is probably best described as the eightfold path. This, too, is a huge area of study but it typically centers on the investigation and potential reduction of suffering. There is some overlap.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/30/20 9:41 AM as a reply to M.
M:
Chris Marti:
I can't force others to accommodate my feelings. But I can request that they do so in a very nonconfrontational way that is more likely to make them comply (relative to screaming at them, for example) if they're receptive to my emotions to begin with. 

Your language reveals your purpose, i.e.; "comply."  Anyway, I think yours is a psychological issue, not a dharma issue.
How are you distinguishing between the two? Asking so that I have a better sense of what types of things are seen as appropriate for this forum.

Err on the side of asking the question. If you hadn't asked the question, no one would have made the distinction. The difference isn't always clear, and there's tons of overlap, so it's better just to ask your question and let everyone weigh in. 

This forum is specifically about dharma, but it's also about human development in general. It's a bunch of caring people trying to help each other live good lifes. It's also likely to be the best resource, outside of a therapist trained in pragmatic dharma and counseling, for discriminating between and incorporating the two modalities in a nuanced, thoughtful way.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/30/20 9:48 AM as a reply to George S.
Agnostic -- all good stuff there. Maybe I was a bit absolutist in my response. I think it's about time for me to read some Ken Mcleod. Does Waking Up To Your Life cover the 6 realms stuff? I'm just finishing Chogyam Trungpa's Spiritual Materialism and am "hungry" for some more 6 realms material.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/30/20 10:39 AM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Yes Chapter 5 of Wake Up To Your Life is called Karma and Dismantling Belief and describes how the 6 realms and 5 elements operate. Chapter 6 is called Dismantling Reactive Emotions and shows you how to transform the reactive emotions and empty the realms.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
11/30/20 5:51 PM as a reply to George S.
Cool. It's on hold.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/1/20 4:32 AM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Brandon Dayton:
M:
Chris Marti:
I can't force others to accommodate my feelings. But I can request that they do so in a very nonconfrontational way that is more likely to make them comply (relative to screaming at them, for example) if they're receptive to my emotions to begin with. 

Your language reveals your purpose, i.e.; "comply."  Anyway, I think yours is a psychological issue, not a dharma issue.
How are you distinguishing between the two? Asking so that I have a better sense of what types of things are seen as appropriate for this forum.

Err on the side of asking the question. If you hadn't asked the question, no one would have made the distinction. The difference isn't always clear, and there's tons of overlap, so it's better just to ask your question and let everyone weigh in. 

This forum is specifically about dharma, but it's also about human development in general. It's a bunch of caring people trying to help each other live good lifes. It's also likely to be the best resource, outside of a therapist trained in pragmatic dharma and counseling, for discriminating between and incorporating the two modalities in a nuanced, thoughtful way.
M, I think what Chris highlighted here in your language, the way you are framing your relationship questions and expectations, is that  to hope for "compliance" to an expectation you hold for a "good outcome" going into the interaction is a setup for failure and reeks of manipulation and the fantasy of some kind of passive-aggressive control. I think the Non-Violent Communication model often drifts into this territory in its emphasis on needs and techniques that are truly unwieldy in the normal flow of human interaction. It is an attempt to create a kind of hothouse for communication, special conditions, and if everyone involved is fluent and practiced in the model it may yield the occasional lovely orchid bloom. But for normal human weather it is a set-up for bad stuff. You responded with humor and appreciation to what Martin said above, about accepting weather as an analogy for taking what other people offer you in your interactions, and this is a much healthier and more viable ground to begin thinking about this stuff. Forget the rain dances and take what any given moment offers from the sky, and try to dress appropriately. Accepting the reality of weather is necessary to getting wiser about it. The weather is not going to comply with your wardrobe, no matter how nicely dressed up you may be. (And there is nothing so rare as a day in June, the air so fine and the blossoms all blue.)

It is really hard work to get this shit right. You are doing that work. I think you're in a phase of realizing at a whole new level just how deep the questions go, and how much work is involved. Accepting that, understanding the reality of the long haul and the perpetual baby steps, giving yourself the eternity necessary to get it right, can ease a lot of the misery. The rst of the misery is heart work, and it's the only game in town. So hang in there, my friend, and keep taking those baby steps. Everybody's a pilgrim here.

love, tim

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/4/20 1:27 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Brandon Dayton:
M:
Chris Marti:
I can't force others to accommodate my feelings. But I can request that they do so in a very nonconfrontational way that is more likely to make them comply (relative to screaming at them, for example) if they're receptive to my emotions to begin with. 

Your language reveals your purpose, i.e.; "comply."  Anyway, I think yours is a psychological issue, not a dharma issue.
How are you distinguishing between the two? Asking so that I have a better sense of what types of things are seen as appropriate for this forum.

Err on the side of asking the question. If you hadn't asked the question, no one would have made the distinction. The difference isn't always clear, and there's tons of overlap, so it's better just to ask your question and let everyone weigh in. 

This forum is specifically about dharma, but it's also about human development in general. It's a bunch of caring people trying to help each other live good lifes. It's also likely to be the best resource, outside of a therapist trained in pragmatic dharma and counseling, for discriminating between and incorporating the two modalities in a nuanced, thoughtful way.
M, I think what Chris highlighted here in your language, the way you are framing your relationship questions and expectations, is that  to hope for "compliance" to an expectation you hold for a "good outcome" going into the interaction is a setup for failure and reeks of manipulation and the fantasy of some kind of passive-aggressive control. I think the Non-Violent Communication model often drifts into this territory in its emphasis on needs and techniques that are truly unwieldy in the normal flow of human interaction. It is an attempt to create a kind of hothouse for communication, special conditions, and if everyone involved is fluent and practiced in the model it may yield the occasional lovely orchid bloom. But for normal human weather it is a set-up for bad stuff. You responded with humor and appreciation to what Martin said above, about accepting weather as an analogy for taking what other people offer you in your interactions, and this is a much healthier and more viable ground to begin thinking about this stuff. Forget the rain dances and take what any given moment offers from the sky, and try to dress appropriately. Accepting the reality of weather is necessary to getting wiser about it. The weather is not going to comply with your wardrobe, no matter how nicely dressed up you may be. (And there is nothing so rare as a day in June, the air so fine and the blossoms all blue.)

It is really hard work to get this shit right. You are doing that work. I think you're in a phase of realizing at a whole new level just how deep the questions go, and how much work is involved. Accepting that, understanding the reality of the long haul and the perpetual baby steps, giving yourself the eternity necessary to get it right, can ease a lot of the misery. The rst of the misery is heart work, and it's the only game in town. So hang in there, my friend, and keep taking those baby steps. Everybody's a pilgrim here.

love, tim
I largely agree with what you said about Nonviolent Communication if you follow the exact "formula". However, the main thing I take from it is that it's important to empathize with others and with yourself before resolving any conflict and to avoid getting caught in who's "right" or "wrong". This doesn't require using rigid techniques. 

Your comment about rain dances made me chuckle. I feel like I've been doing metaphorical rain dances trying to get people to change, haha. 

In reading your last paragraph, it made me realize that I am in a bit of a rush. I feel like the amount of suffer doesn't match the reality of what I think I "should" be experiencing given the amount of work I've done on myself. But I will try to be patient. At least there are nuggets of success along the way to keep me motivated. 

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/4/20 1:37 PM as a reply to George S.
agnostic:
I think you could probably benefit from some good therapy (like many of us emoticon) but there's also a dharmic perspective on your problem which may be helpful - in terms of elements and realms. Your need for others to constantly recognize your feelings is earth element - a need for emotional security due to the neglect (void element) you suffered as a child. This has plunged you into the hungry ghost realm - an insatiable need for emotional reciprocation from others, a need to "control" or "comply" as you say.

I'm going to say something a bit controversial here, which is that in general it's a bad idea to expect other people to care about your feelings per se unless you fill some complementary emotional need for them. Your flaky friend who never calls back actually cares about your feelings very much, but from the opposite perspective - the water element - his reaction is reckless disregard in response to feeling threatened by your neediness. The two of your are locked in a kharmic embrace where your neediness and his recklessness are feeding off each other. We've all had friends who care about us less than we care about them, but we tolerate this for a while because they offer some other benefit (charisma, status, beauty, excitement etc.) Eventually we get tired of giving or needing, stop calling and drift apart. Others are right to point out that your dynamic is unlikely to change within this relationship at this time. My father had a needy relationship for a couple of years with a girl when he was 19, she reached out 30 years later, they got back together for a few years and split up again for exactly the same reason.

You might actually find someone who appears to care
deeply about your emotions, but they could be acting
our their own neediness. We've all seen couples who are totally devoted to each other to the exclusion of everyone else - that's not healthy either and doesn't end well. One dies before the other and the survivor's world comes to and end, or else they have kids and suddenly the woman cares more about the child and the man feels totally abandoned, or else they keep feeding off each other and ignore the kids which fucks them up.
 
The dharmic solution is to go straight to the source and examine your earth element reaction and hungry ghost realm. You meditate on that feeling of neediness, that need for emotional security, and see how it leeds you into insatiable feeding on others who can't reciprocate. This can be hard to do because the neediness may appear to get worse at first as you bring it under the spotlight of awareness. The reaction pattern will literally fight for survival as its viewed as a core part of "who you are" coming under threat. That's why it could be helpful to have a good therapist or teacher. You could start with the books Wake Up To Your Life (Chapter 5) and Spectrum Of Ecstasy to get an idea of what's involved and what kind of support you might need. But eventually you will learn to see how the thing works in real time and be liberated from being compelled to behave in the same pre-conditioned way.
I've been trying to do something similar to what you describe in your last paragraph. Would you mind being a bit more precise? When you talk about meditating on the feeling, what does that look like for you? Is it more cognitive or focused on body sensations? 

What you said about finding someone who appears to care about my emotions but is acting out of their own neediness was really interesting. Good to remember that having someone care about my emotions isn't the be-all-end-all it sometimes seems to be. 

Can you clarify what you mean when you say friends should fill complementary emotional needs? I'm not sure I see how this fits with what you wrote about earth and water. 

And you'll be glad to hear I have a therapist. emoticon

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/10/20 6:45 PM as a reply to M.
M:
I feel confused about how to apply meditative insights in my relationships and would really appreciate some guidance.

I repeatedly find myself getting upset by the same thing. If I feel like someone is brushing off my emotions, it triggers thoughts like "No one cares about me" and "They should take my emotions seriously".
 
Over the past few years, I've tried to deal with this by making concrete changes in my relationships. I've cultivated friendships with people who are genuinely kind. I've practiced Nonviolent Communication so that I can communicate with and empathize with others more effectively. I've learned to spot "red flags" that I used to ignore.
 
Yet, I still find myself getting upset by the same thing over and over and over again. I'm tired of suffering for the same reason. In the moments when it doesn't wreck me emotionally and make me feel sadness and fear about being alone in the world, it's such a repetitive thought that it can honestly get boring. 
 
On one level, I can see that this is a problem that is within my control to solve. Not by changing others, but by changing my own mind. If I didn't give as much weight to the thought "they should be acting differently", I'd almost definitely feel much better (shoutout to Byron Katie).
 
However, I worry that not taking this thought seriously would turn me into a pushover. I've struggled in the past with putting my own emotions on the backburner for the sake of others and have been trying not to do this. I know that addressing this thought more directly would benefit me, not just the people who don't want to do what I ask of them. But I still feel a resistance to becoming okay with what they're doing. I'm not entirely sure how to tell whether I'm primarily changing my relationship to my thoughts for their sake or for my own. I am also aware of the thought "It's bad to be a pushover" and am not sure how much weight to give to it.
 
What's the balance between asking/wanting others to accommodate my feelings and taking responsibility for my own feelings?

Note: If anyone's interested in this topic, I'd recommend the Ram Dass Here and Now podcast Ep. 17 is on the Yoga of Relationships. It's excellent at characterizing the general issue but doesn't get much into how to practice this. 



judge - vic - perp


when one of these three enters your mind obsessvely, all three are present, all are objects with which you can identify, and identify others...

when others "should" do what you think they ought to do, you're the judge

when they ignore your feelings, you're the vic

when you react, you're the perp

play any one of these roles and you cast others in the opposing roles, bad for them, bad for you...

withdraw from conflict, from law enforcement

accept what people are willing ot give you

confide when you have their confidence, be silent when no one is listening...


go with the flow, take it easy


don't identify

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/10/20 7:03 PM as a reply to M.
M:
Jim Smith:
M:

...
However, I worry that not taking this thought seriously would turn me into a pushover. I've struggled in the past with putting my own emotions on the backburner for the sake of others and have been trying not to do this. I know that addressing this thought more directly would benefit me, not just the people who don't want to do what I ask of them. But I still feel a resistance to becoming okay with what they're doing. I'm not entirely sure how to tell whether I'm primarily changing my relationship to my thoughts for their sake or for my own. I am also aware of the thought "It's bad to be a pushover" and am not sure how much weight to give to it.

If you haven't done something like this before it's worth a try, ask your self: "Why am I feeling this way?" If you get an answer, ask it again, because sometimes there are layers of reasons, so keep digging and see if you can get to the bottom of it. Sometimes the "suffering" is not caused by the emotion you think is causing it, but is caused by reluctance to face some deeper truth. At the bottom of it all you might find "surrendering" helps, accepting the unpleasant facts that you were previously unwilling recognize. It might be that you have to accept you were a victim, or you did something wrong, or you failed, etc. I can't say for sure this is your situation but repeated "hot button" emotions are sometimes caused by this.

And being non-attached doesn't mean you become a pushover. It means you can react to situations with compassion and logic rather than with unpleasant emotions. The unpleasant emotions only cloud your judgement. You don't have to let people do harm, but you can respond in a smarter way. In fact,  you are less likely to get stuck in a dysfunctional relationship if you have the clarity of mind to recognize when you should end it or avoid it in the first place. You are more likely to be a pushover if suppressed thoughts are causing you to act in illogical ways and you don't understand your own behavior.

And being non-attached doesn't necessarily mean you don't have emotions, sometimes it just means you are not attached to them. Emotions don't necessarily disappear, but they don't have the same power. When your mind is not turbulent, you don't to react with thoughts that reinforce unpleasant emotions. Emotions just appear from the unconscious as physical sensations in your body, but they don't have as much effect on your mind. 
Thanks for that suggestion. I've been trying to do that a lot lately - are you familiar with Eugene Gendlin's technique Focusing? I've been doing a mix of that and vipassana to try to get to the root of the issue. The main thing I've come up with through that process has been that I have a deep, unsatisfied desire to feel cared about and have others take my emotions seriously. Not that this matters, but I can rationally see how it ties into my parents being emotionally neglectful and not having certain emotional needs met. Maybe there's an underlying desire that's deeper than this, but I haven't been able to find it yet. 

The effort I've put into becoming a better communicator has been an attempt at responding in a smarter way. The thing that I'm still unsure of based on what you said is -- what does it mean for someone to do harm? Depending on my own personal preferences, the same behavior in another person can seem harmful or not. For example, when a friend of mine doesn't call me back when he says he would, I feel really hurt and feel like he doesn't value me to the same degree I value him. If I didn't call him back when I said I would, he wouldn't care. He knows this kind of thing upsets me, but he's still forgetful and flaky. Is he harming me in this situation? It's clear to me what merits "harm" in cases of physical/sexual abuse, but (fortunately) the situations I'm dealing with aren't that extreme. 

I agree with what you said about emotions having less power. I've definitely noticed that. Which is why I'm able to post a long, somewhat esoteric post about relationships on this site instead of spending my time yelling at my friends who have upset me lately. emoticon


to try to put this in perspective, I think what you are basically talking about is technically known as "growing up"...


when you raise a puppy, along about eleven months they begin to realize they are not king or queen of all they survey, but just another dog...


infant narcissism gives way to realizing we are not important to people in the same way as we "grow up"...


every child struggles with this


the mature person gives love and regards that as sufficient...

more blessed

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/10/20 10:41 PM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Brandon Dayton:
Agnostic -- all good stuff there. Maybe I was a bit absolutist in my response. I think it's about time for me to read some Ken Mcleod. Does Waking Up To Your Life cover the 6 realms stuff? I'm just finishing Chogyam Trungpa's Spiritual Materialism and am "hungry" for some more 6 realms material.


nobody is better on the six realms than trungpa...have you tried "the myth of freedom"?

t

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/11/20 11:30 AM as a reply to M.
M:
agnostic:
I think you could probably benefit from some good therapy (like many of us emoticon) but there's also a dharmic perspective on your problem which may be helpful - in terms of elements and realms. Your need for others to constantly recognize your feelings is earth element - a need for emotional security due to the neglect (void element) you suffered as a child. This has plunged you into the hungry ghost realm - an insatiable need for emotional reciprocation from others, a need to "control" or "comply" as you say.

I'm going to say something a bit controversial here, which is that in general it's a bad idea to expect other people to care about your feelings per se unless you fill some complementary emotional need for them. Your flaky friend who never calls back actually cares about your feelings very much, but from the opposite perspective - the water element - his reaction is reckless disregard in response to feeling threatened by your neediness. The two of your are locked in a kharmic embrace where your neediness and his recklessness are feeding off each other. We've all had friends who care about us less than we care about them, but we tolerate this for a while because they offer some other benefit (charisma, status, beauty, excitement etc.) Eventually we get tired of giving or needing, stop calling and drift apart. Others are right to point out that your dynamic is unlikely to change within this relationship at this time. My father had a needy relationship for a couple of years with a girl when he was 19, she reached out 30 years later, they got back together for a few years and split up again for exactly the same reason.

You might actually find someone who appears to care
deeply about your emotions, but they could be acting
our their own neediness. We've all seen couples who are totally devoted to each other to the exclusion of everyone else - that's not healthy either and doesn't end well. One dies before the other and the survivor's world comes to and end, or else they have kids and suddenly the woman cares more about the child and the man feels totally abandoned, or else they keep feeding off each other and ignore the kids which fucks them up.
 
The dharmic solution is to go straight to the source and examine your earth element reaction and hungry ghost realm. You meditate on that feeling of neediness, that need for emotional security, and see how it leeds you into insatiable feeding on others who can't reciprocate. This can be hard to do because the neediness may appear to get worse at first as you bring it under the spotlight of awareness. The reaction pattern will literally fight for survival as its viewed as a core part of "who you are" coming under threat. That's why it could be helpful to have a good therapist or teacher. You could start with the books Wake Up To Your Life (Chapter 5) and Spectrum Of Ecstasy to get an idea of what's involved and what kind of support you might need. But eventually you will learn to see how the thing works in real time and be liberated from being compelled to behave in the same pre-conditioned way.
I've been trying to do something similar to what you describe in your last paragraph. Would you mind being a bit more precise? When you talk about meditating on the feeling, what does that look like for you? Is it more cognitive or focused on body sensations? 

What you said about finding someone who appears to care about my emotions but is acting out of their own neediness was really interesting. Good to remember that having someone care about my emotions isn't the be-all-end-all it sometimes seems to be. 

Can you clarify what you mean when you say friends should fill complementary emotional needs? I'm not sure I see how this fits with what you wrote about earth and water. 

And you'll be glad to hear I have a therapist. emoticon

Meditating on the feeling is definitely body focused rather than cognitive. The brain and body are often saying completely different things. Your brain could be saying something like "I really think my friend should respect my feelings more according to my intellectual understanding of nonviolent communication", while the tension in your belly is screaming "I hate my friend, all I do is give give give and all he does is take take take, I want to kill him!"

Normally we think that ~90% of our experience is in the brain, but the cognitive brain developed relatively recently in our evolutionary history. It's more like the body is giving us 90% of our experience and cognition is mostly responding to those inputs. It's the same with communication - much more of the communication than we realize is via the body, tone, context etc. whilst much less that we think is in the words we actually use.

Your friend naturally picks up on your non-verbal communication and feels threatened by your aggression, which is why he doesn't call back. In elements practice this reaction is associated with the water element - trying to dissipate the energy of a perceived threat. His ignoring you makes you feel even more insignificant and powerless, so you respond by being even more rigid in your demands (earth element reaction). This in turn makes him feel even more threatened and so the two of you go on in your merry karmic dance. This is what I was talking about when I mentioned people filling complementary emotional needs. The emotional neglect you suffered in childhood inclines you towards neediness and demanding compliance from others. Maybe your friend had needy and demanding parents, so he finds such relationships familiar and comforting in a way. This would be how you fill each other's "needs", by mirroring each other's conditioning.

Once you train yourself to listen to what your body is telling you then you start to feel in realtime when you tense up and go into earth element mode, which prevents you from acting out on the reactive feeling. You stop making demands on your friend, he feels less threatened and maybe he feels it's safe to call you.

If you're not used to listening to what your body is saying then it can take a while to learn, which is what elements practice is all about really - a structured way of listening to your body.

What you said about finding someone who appears to care about my emotions but is acting out of their own neediness was really interesting. 

This is interesting! I was talking about people filling complementary emotional needs but you instinctively interpreted it as the neediness of others. Sorry to be blunt again, but it is YOUR neediness which is the issue here. "Should" is a very strong word and whenever you find yourself using it there is usually a strong desire to control people.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/11/20 12:31 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Brandon Dayton:
Agnostic -- all good stuff there. Maybe I was a bit absolutist in my response. I think it's about time for me to read some Ken Mcleod. Does Waking Up To Your Life cover the 6 realms stuff? I'm just finishing Chogyam Trungpa's Spiritual Materialism and am "hungry" for some more 6 realms material.


nobody is better on the six realms than trungpa...have you tried "the myth of freedom"?

t

I'll add that to my list. I've got Transcending Madness on queue too.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/11/20 1:01 PM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
I really like choggy's writing, but sometimes I wonder about taking advice on "basic sanity" from someone who drank themselves to death! Is that judgemental of me? emoticon

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/11/20 1:13 PM as a reply to George S.
I'd sometimes prefer to take advice on sanity from the insane who has lost their life to their inssnity, because they know how to lose it, they know what makes you lose it, they were insane and crazy enough to go close enough, others, they didn't dare it.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/11/20 1:28 PM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Brandon Dayton:
terry:
Brandon Dayton:
Agnostic -- all good stuff there. Maybe I was a bit absolutist in my response. I think it's about time for me to read some Ken Mcleod. Does Waking Up To Your Life cover the 6 realms stuff? I'm just finishing Chogyam Trungpa's Spiritual Materialism and am "hungry" for some more 6 realms material.


nobody is better on the six realms than trungpa...have you tried "the myth of freedom"?

t

I'll add that to my list. I've got Transcending Madness on queue too.


trifecta

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/11/20 1:34 PM as a reply to George S.
agnostic:
I really like choggy's writing, but sometimes I wonder about taking advice on "basic sanity" from someone who drank themselves to death! Is that judgemental of me? emoticon


yes


the most fucked up people give the best advice

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/11/20 1:56 PM as a reply to Helen Pohl.
Helen Pohl:
If you set clear boundaries with people, and stand by them, no one will be able to push you around. 

It can be uncomfortable as hell at first when people react to your new behaviour, but it'll be worth it in the long run. emoticon

aloha helen,


   This is the practical solution for not being a pushover, as most women can tell us. Women are often assumed to be pushovers unless they insist on standing their ground.

   I would guess M didn't have a sister.

   These conflicts are generally acted out and mastered in childhood and adolescence in a healthy family. Initital boundaries are set by the parents, such as "don't hit your sister." When children were asked what they most liked hearing their parents say to them, it was overwhelmingly something like "Tell your brother to come here right now!"

   Pathology enters in when we repress negative feelings towards our familial rivals for parental affection. The older child is no longer the baby, but he's big enough to beat on the littler one. Transpose this to adult relations and you have typical conflicts, rooted in childhood pathologies and emotional traumas. Some children survive poor parenting, while others resist even the best.

   Where the nuclear family has been atomized, poor parenting and subsequent conflict become the norm.

   (In noah's ark we enter two by two.)


terry

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/11/20 2:09 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
agnostic:
I really like choggy's writing, but sometimes I wonder about taking advice on "basic sanity" from someone who drank themselves to death! Is that judgemental of me? emoticon


yes


the most fucked up people give the best advice


   The buddha has a parable about four horses, The best horse runs when he sees the shadow of the whip, the second best when he sees the whip, the third when he feels the whip, and the worst horse when the whip lays his flesh open to the bone.

   The whip being the dharma, which horse do you think would offer the best advice?

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/11/20 2:55 PM as a reply to George S.
Stories of his succesor are even worse:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96sel_Tendzin

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 4:54 AM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Clearly he forgot the first rule of Lama Club: don't choose your dharma successor when you are wasted.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 4:59 AM as a reply to George S.
I thought the first rule of Lama Club was "Never talk about Lama Club."

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 5:03 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Lama club, what lama club?

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 6:03 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Helen Pohl:
If you set clear boundaries with people, and stand by them, no one will be able to push you around. 

It can be uncomfortable as hell at first when people react to your new behaviour, but it'll be worth it in the long run. emoticon

aloha helen,


   This is the practical solution for not being a pushover, as most women can tell us. Women are often assumed to be pushovers unless they insist on standing their ground.


Yeah, and when they do, people assume they are aggressive. No way to win. Still, I have often given this very advice and still do, because it really isn't about winning anyway. 

edited to add: It gets complicated when our own boundaries collide with accepting others as they are, I'll acknowledge that. In some cases, we humans just need to get over ourselves. Not all boundaries are worth the fuzz. They can also be traps for ourselves and make us miserable. Some boundaries are unreasonable as they expect the impossible and hence make others miserable. What is what can be a very relative and situated thing. Sometimes all people involved do their very best and it still doesn't work. I find it possible to accept and respect that and still take yourself out of the situation if you need to. I mean, I accept and respect wild tigers as they are, but I still don't want them in my livingroom, and it's probably better for everyone involved not to put them there. 

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 5:47 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
terry:

the most fucked up people give the best advice


   The buddha has a parable about four horses, The best horse runs when he sees the shadow of the whip, the second best when he sees the whip, the third when he feels the whip, and the worst horse when the whip lays his flesh open to the bone.

   The whip being the dharma, which horse do you think would offer the best advice?


I can’t help but thinking that it’s situated. The horse that is most prone to run away from shadows can probably give great advice about which shadows are really not worth the effort of running from. The horse that gets beaten can probably convincingly encourage others to run. We are all fucked up, but in different ways.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 6:04 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 6:11 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
terry:

the most fucked up people give the best advice


   The buddha has a parable about four horses, The best horse runs when he sees the shadow of the whip, the second best when he sees the whip, the third when he feels the whip, and the worst horse when the whip lays his flesh open to the bone.

   The whip being the dharma, which horse do you think would offer the best advice?


I can’t help but thinking that it’s situated. The horse that is most prone to run away from shadows can probably give great advice about which shadows are really not worth the effort of running from. The horse that gets beaten can probably convincingly encourage others to run. We are all fucked up, but in different ways.

I'd say it's the fourth horse, with flesh laid open to the bone. He's the one that knows for sure that fucker with the whip is serious.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 6:11 AM as a reply to George S.
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?

Lol, I have no idea. I have only met a small fraction of them, and even for that group I find that they are much too complex for any generalizations to be made that would be even remotely fair. Also, I'm not convinced that the gender axis is as much of a natural divider as many people seem to think. 

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 6:34 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I'm pretty sure the gender axis is whatever we think it is.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 1:12 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
Helen Pohl:
If you set clear boundaries with people, and stand by them, no one will be able to push you around. 

It can be uncomfortable as hell at first when people react to your new behaviour, but it'll be worth it in the long run. emoticon

aloha helen,


   This is the practical solution for not being a pushover, as most women can tell us. Women are often assumed to be pushovers unless they insist on standing their ground.


Yeah, and when they do, people assume they are aggressive. No way to win. Still, I have often given this very advice and still do, because it really isn't about winning anyway. 

edited to add: It gets complicated when our own boundaries collide with accepting others as they are, I'll acknowledge that. In some cases, we humans just need to get over ourselves. Not all boundaries are worth the fuzz. They can also be traps for ourselves and make us miserable. Some boundaries are unreasonable as they expect the impossible and hence make others miserable. What is what can be a very relative and situated thing. Sometimes all people involved do their very best and it still doesn't work. I find it possible to accept and respect that and still take yourself out of the situation if you need to. I mean, I accept and respect wild tigers as they are, but I still don't want them in my livingroom, and it's probably better for everyone involved not to put them there. 



   when I lived in texas, it was safe to assume that any woman driving alone had a gun at least as close as the glove box...

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 1:17 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
terry:

the most fucked up people give the best advice


   The buddha has a parable about four horses, The best horse runs when he sees the shadow of the whip, the second best when he sees the whip, the third when he feels the whip, and the worst horse when the whip lays his flesh open to the bone.

   The whip being the dharma, which horse do you think would offer the best advice?


I can’t help but thinking that it’s situated. The horse that is most prone to run away from shadows can probably give great advice about which shadows are really not worth the effort of running from. The horse that gets beaten can probably convincingly encourage others to run. We are all fucked up, but in different ways.


enlightenment is knowing we are all perfect

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 1:21 PM as a reply to George S.
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


most men lack the courage, not to mention the insight...


whippersnapper...


(wink)


(in hawaii we opine about race too, and tell blonde jokes...)


t


t

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 1:24 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
terry:

the most fucked up people give the best advice


   The buddha has a parable about four horses, The best horse runs when he sees the shadow of the whip, the second best when he sees the whip, the third when he feels the whip, and the worst horse when the whip lays his flesh open to the bone.

   The whip being the dharma, which horse do you think would offer the best advice?


I can’t help but thinking that it’s situated. The horse that is most prone to run away from shadows can probably give great advice about which shadows are really not worth the effort of running from. The horse that gets beaten can probably convincingly encourage others to run. We are all fucked up, but in different ways.

I'd say it's the fourth horse, with flesh laid open to the bone. He's the one that knows for sure that fucker with the whip is serious.


suzuki roshi used to say that we're all the worst horse...

(whip? what whip? oh, that whip...) auwe!

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 1:44 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?

Lol, I have no idea. I have only met a small fraction of them, and even for that group I find that they are much too complex for any generalizations to be made that would be even remotely fair. Also, I'm not convinced that the gender axis is as much of a natural divider as many people seem to think. 


undivided is unconquered, the tai chi

(two by two)

there is no more natural divider in all of nature, yang and yin:
the mainspring of life

eros makes the world go round - the original greek god(dess) was an androgyne

freud discovered that we are all essentially bisexual,
that gender roles are assigned independently of sexuality,
and that we all resist these assignments to greater or lesser degree...


love and attraction are not two


terry



(mouse said this in the matrix)


"To deny our own impulses is to deny the very thing that makes us human."
—Bertrand Russell

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 1:48 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
Helen Pohl:
If you set clear boundaries with people, and stand by them, no one will be able to push you around. 

It can be uncomfortable as hell at first when people react to your new behaviour, but it'll be worth it in the long run. emoticon

aloha helen,


   This is the practical solution for not being a pushover, as most women can tell us. Women are often assumed to be pushovers unless they insist on standing their ground.


Yeah, and when they do, people assume they are aggressive. No way to win. Still, I have often given this very advice and still do, because it really isn't about winning anyway. 

edited to add: It gets complicated when our own boundaries collide with accepting others as they are, I'll acknowledge that. In some cases, we humans just need to get over ourselves. Not all boundaries are worth the fuzz. They can also be traps for ourselves and make us miserable. Some boundaries are unreasonable as they expect the impossible and hence make others miserable. What is what can be a very relative and situated thing. Sometimes all people involved do their very best and it still doesn't work. I find it possible to accept and respect that and still take yourself out of the situation if you need to. I mean, I accept and respect wild tigers as they are, but I still don't want them in my livingroom, and it's probably better for everyone involved not to put them there. 



   when I lived in texas, it was safe to assume that any woman driving alone had a gun at least as close as the glove box...


and assuming such generalizations are likely true could save your life...

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 1:50 PM as a reply to George S.
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


love it when men generalize about men generalizing...

lol...

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 2:00 PM as a reply to George S.
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


just to be clear, bra, you missed the original joke, which was the truism that you are a pushover if you don't stand up for yourself...


if you don't see a joke in something I have said, you probably just didn't get it...


(wink)

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 4:23 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


love it when men generalize about men generalizing...

lol...
Exactly what did he generalize, though? I only saw him implicitly make the point that in actual cases where he sees a man talk about what "most women" are like, he can't help thinking that maybe it might be good to keep in mind that they lack both the insider's perspective and sufficient data. Did he touch a nerve? *wink* 

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 4:36 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
Helen Pohl:
If you set clear boundaries with people, and stand by them, no one will be able to push you around. 

It can be uncomfortable as hell at first when people react to your new behaviour, but it'll be worth it in the long run. emoticon

aloha helen,


   This is the practical solution for not being a pushover, as most women can tell us. Women are often assumed to be pushovers unless they insist on standing their ground.


Yeah, and when they do, people assume they are aggressive. No way to win. Still, I have often given this very advice and still do, because it really isn't about winning anyway. 

edited to add: It gets complicated when our own boundaries collide with accepting others as they are, I'll acknowledge that. In some cases, we humans just need to get over ourselves. Not all boundaries are worth the fuzz. They can also be traps for ourselves and make us miserable. Some boundaries are unreasonable as they expect the impossible and hence make others miserable. What is what can be a very relative and situated thing. Sometimes all people involved do their very best and it still doesn't work. I find it possible to accept and respect that and still take yourself out of the situation if you need to. I mean, I accept and respect wild tigers as they are, but I still don't want them in my livingroom, and it's probably better for everyone involved not to put them there. 



   when I lived in texas, it was safe to assume that any woman driving alone had a gun at least as close as the glove box...


and assuming such generalizations are likely true could save your life...

I do get what you mean. I have heard many women explain that even though they don't go around assuming that all men are abusive, they have no way of knowing which ones might be. Making generalizations can save their lives. It's nothing personal. And correspondingly, making the generalization that they might shoot you out of fear based on a misunderstanding, might also save your life. That's not personal either.

I would prefer to live in a world where acting out of fearful generalizations wouldn't make sense, but we are not quite there... 

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/18/20 5:15 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?

Lol, I have no idea. I have only met a small fraction of them, and even for that group I find that they are much too complex for any generalizations to be made that would be even remotely fair. Also, I'm not convinced that the gender axis is as much of a natural divider as many people seem to think. 


undivided is unconquered, the tai chi

(two by two)

there is no more natural divider in all of nature, yang and yin:
the mainspring of life

eros makes the world go round - the original greek god(dess) was an androgyne

freud discovered that we are all essentially bisexual,
that gender roles are assigned independently of sexuality,
and that we all resist these assignments to greater or lesser degree...


love and attraction are not two


terry



(mouse said this in the matrix)


"To deny our own impulses is to deny the very thing that makes us human."
—Bertrand Russell

Zeroth fetter: being sure about your sexuality.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/19/20 1:20 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


love it when men generalize about men generalizing...

lol...
Exactly what did he generalize, though? I only saw him implicitly make the point that in actual cases where he sees a man talk about what "most women" are like, he can't help thinking that maybe it might be good to keep in mind that they lack both the insider's perspective and sufficient data. Did he touch a nerve? *wink* 


   I took it as mindless political correctness reflexively used to discourage the assertion of generalities regardless of their truth.

   Is it any better that a man assert what most men are like, as george implicitly does? 

   We've spoken about boundaries before, you and I. It was notable that in a discussion of being a pushover only helen raised the issue of setting boundaries to avoid being pushed over, which I thought was the "obvious" solution, and said so.

   Yeah, george can get on my nerves, if he really wants to. At least until I catch on.

"wink"


terry

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/19/20 1:59 PM as a reply to terry.
I just thought that Helen skillfully brings up good points in a pedagogical way. I didn't think of it as gendered.

I don't feel like I'm qualified to judge what is worst. I'm ambivalent about generalizations about groups such as gender. They can oppress and they can make oppression visible. Sometimes it's hard to tell what is what, and it can be both at the same time. The way it's all entangled feels yucky to me. That doesn't make it okay to project my yuckiness on others. 

For what it's worth, I'm sorry for laughing. I just felt relieved at the time to get the opportunity to problematize generalizations in a joking manner, because they so often make me feel uncomfortable. You seem to enjoy the tough love kind of humor, so I didn't think much about it, but I really don't like making jokes at someone's expense and it wasn't fair. My appologies. 

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/19/20 2:42 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


love it when men generalize about men generalizing...

lol...
Exactly what did he generalize, though? I only saw him implicitly make the point that in actual cases where he sees a man talk about what "most women" are like, he can't help thinking that maybe it might be good to keep in mind that they lack both the insider's perspective and sufficient data. Did he touch a nerve? *wink* 


   I took it as mindless political correctness reflexively used to discourage the assertion of generalities regardless of their truth.

   Is it any better that a man assert what most men are like, as george implicitly does? 

   We've spoken about boundaries before, you and I. It was notable that in a discussion of being a pushover only helen raised the issue of setting boundaries to avoid being pushed over, which I thought was the "obvious" solution, and said so.

   Yeah, george can get on my nerves, if he really wants to. At least until I catch on.

"wink"


terry

That's the first time anyone has accused me of being politically correct. Thanks for the compliment.

I definitely didn't say anything about what most men are like, although I can see why you might want to see it that way.

I could get used to this habit of yours of replying with quote to everything. It feels so masculine to be able to occupy so much of the territory in the thread at the click of a button. Just gotta find me some long quotes from the chinese scriptures now ....

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/19/20 2:43 PM as a reply to George S.
agnostic:
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


love it when men generalize about men generalizing...

lol...
Exactly what did he generalize, though? I only saw him implicitly make the point that in actual cases where he sees a man talk about what "most women" are like, he can't help thinking that maybe it might be good to keep in mind that they lack both the insider's perspective and sufficient data. Did he touch a nerve? *wink* 


   I took it as mindless political correctness reflexively used to discourage the assertion of generalities regardless of their truth.

   Is it any better that a man assert what most men are like, as george implicitly does? 

   We've spoken about boundaries before, you and I. It was notable that in a discussion of being a pushover only helen raised the issue of setting boundaries to avoid being pushed over, which I thought was the "obvious" solution, and said so.

   Yeah, george can get on my nerves, if he really wants to. At least until I catch on.

"wink"


terry

That's the first time anyone has accused me of being politically correct. Thanks for the compliment.

I definitely didn't say anything about what most men are like, although I can see why you might want to see it that way.

I could get used to this habit of yours of replying with quote to everything. It feels so masculine to be able to occupy so much of the territory in the thread at the click of a button. Just gotta find me some long quotes from the chinese scriptures now ....

Oh yeah and start replying to myself. God that feels good

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/19/20 2:50 PM as a reply to M.
M:
I feel confused about how to apply meditative insights in my relationships and would really appreciate some guidance.

I repeatedly find myself getting upset by the same thing. If I feel like someone is brushing off my emotions, it triggers thoughts like "No one cares about me" and "They should take my emotions seriously".
 
Over the past few years, I've tried to deal with this by making concrete changes in my relationships. I've cultivated friendships with people who are genuinely kind. I've practiced Nonviolent Communication so that I can communicate with and empathize with others more effectively. I've learned to spot "red flags" that I used to ignore.
 
Yet, I still find myself getting upset by the same thing over and over and over again. I'm tired of suffering for the same reason. In the moments when it doesn't wreck me emotionally and make me feel sadness and fear about being alone in the world, it's such a repetitive thought that it can honestly get boring. 
 
On one level, I can see that this is a problem that is within my control to solve. Not by changing others, but by changing my own mind. If I didn't give as much weight to the thought "they should be acting differently", I'd almost definitely feel much better (shoutout to Byron Katie).
 
However, I worry that not taking this thought seriously would turn me into a pushover. I've struggled in the past with putting my own emotions on the backburner for the sake of others and have been trying not to do this. I know that addressing this thought more directly would benefit me, not just the people who don't want to do what I ask of them. But I still feel a resistance to becoming okay with what they're doing. I'm not entirely sure how to tell whether I'm primarily changing my relationship to my thoughts for their sake or for my own. I am also aware of the thought "It's bad to be a pushover" and am not sure how much weight to give to it.
 
What's the balance between asking/wanting others to accommodate my feelings and taking responsibility for my own feelings?

Note: If anyone's interested in this topic, I'd recommend the Ram Dass Here and Now podcast Ep. 17 is on the Yoga of Relationships. It's excellent at characterizing the general issue but doesn't get much into how to practice this. 

Yes.

You have been given a possible "handle" to...well..

A handle...

Step off your flagpole...

And embrace yer destiny...

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/19/20 2:57 PM as a reply to Yuri K.
Yuri K:
M:
I feel confused about how to apply meditative insights in my relationships and would really appreciate some guidance.

I repeatedly find myself getting upset by the same thing. If I feel like someone is brushing off my emotions, it triggers thoughts like "No one cares about me" and "They should take my emotions seriously".
 
Over the past few years, I've tried to deal with this by making concrete changes in my relationships. I've cultivated friendships with people who are genuinely kind. I've practiced Nonviolent Communication so that I can communicate with and empathize with others more effectively. I've learned to spot "red flags" that I used to ignore.
 
Yet, I still find myself getting upset by the same thing over and over and over again. I'm tired of suffering for the same reason. In the moments when it doesn't wreck me emotionally and make me feel sadness and fear about being alone in the world, it's such a repetitive thought that it can honestly get boring. 
 
On one level, I can see that this is a problem that is within my control to solve. Not by changing others, but by changing my own mind. If I didn't give as much weight to the thought "they should be acting differently", I'd almost definitely feel much better (shoutout to Byron Katie).
 
However, I worry that not taking this thought seriously would turn me into a pushover. I've struggled in the past with putting my own emotions on the backburner for the sake of others and have been trying not to do this. I know that addressing this thought more directly would benefit me, not just the people who don't want to do what I ask of them. But I still feel a resistance to becoming okay with what they're doing. I'm not entirely sure how to tell whether I'm primarily changing my relationship to my thoughts for their sake or for my own. I am also aware of the thought "It's bad to be a pushover" and am not sure how much weight to give to it.
 
What's the balance between asking/wanting others to accommodate my feelings and taking responsibility for my own feelings?

Note: If anyone's interested in this topic, I'd recommend the Ram Dass Here and Now podcast Ep. 17 is on the Yoga of Relationships. It's excellent at characterizing the general issue but doesn't get much into how to practice this. 

Yes.

You have been given a possible "handle" to...well..

A handle...

Step off your flagpole...

And embrace yer destiny...
Dan..Come on...

Step off yer flagpole...

Lemme know where I can meet you in person...

Let's finish it...

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/19/20 4:03 PM as a reply to Yuri K.
Yuri K:
Yuri K:
M:
I feel confused about how to apply meditative insights in my relationships and would really appreciate some guidance.

I repeatedly find myself getting upset by the same thing. If I feel like someone is brushing off my emotions, it triggers thoughts like "No one cares about me" and "They should take my emotions seriously".
 
Over the past few years, I've tried to deal with this by making concrete changes in my relationships. I've cultivated friendships with people who are genuinely kind. I've practiced Nonviolent Communication so that I can communicate with and empathize with others more effectively. I've learned to spot "red flags" that I used to ignore.
 
Yet, I still find myself getting upset by the same thing over and over and over again. I'm tired of suffering for the same reason. In the moments when it doesn't wreck me emotionally and make me feel sadness and fear about being alone in the world, it's such a repetitive thought that it can honestly get boring. 
 
On one level, I can see that this is a problem that is within my control to solve. Not by changing others, but by changing my own mind. If I didn't give as much weight to the thought "they should be acting differently", I'd almost definitely feel much better (shoutout to Byron Katie).
 
However, I worry that not taking this thought seriously would turn me into a pushover. I've struggled in the past with putting my own emotions on the backburner for the sake of others and have been trying not to do this. I know that addressing this thought more directly would benefit me, not just the people who don't want to do what I ask of them. But I still feel a resistance to becoming okay with what they're doing. I'm not entirely sure how to tell whether I'm primarily changing my relationship to my thoughts for their sake or for my own. I am also aware of the thought "It's bad to be a pushover" and am not sure how much weight to give to it.
 
What's the balance between asking/wanting others to accommodate my feelings and taking responsibility for my own feelings?

Note: If anyone's interested in this topic, I'd recommend the Ram Dass Here and Now podcast Ep. 17 is on the Yoga of Relationships. It's excellent at characterizing the general issue but doesn't get much into how to practice this. 

Yes.

You have been given a possible "handle" to...well..

A handle...

Step off your flagpole...

And embrace yer destiny...
Dan..Come on...

Step off yer flagpole...

Lemme know where I can meet you in person...

Let's finish it...

emoticon As a moderator and a fellow human being, I find this latest post unsettling. It sounds like a threat to me. That's not okay in my book. Consider this a sharp warning. 

Any comments to that?

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/19/20 4:59 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Yuri K:
Yuri K:
M:
I feel confused about how to apply meditative insights in my relationships and would really appreciate some guidance.

I repeatedly find myself getting upset by the same thing. If I feel like someone is brushing off my emotions, it triggers thoughts like "No one cares about me" and "They should take my emotions seriously".
 
Over the past few years, I've tried to deal with this by making concrete changes in my relationships. I've cultivated friendships with people who are genuinely kind. I've practiced Nonviolent Communication so that I can communicate with and empathize with others more effectively. I've learned to spot "red flags" that I used to ignore.
 
Yet, I still find myself getting upset by the same thing over and over and over again. I'm tired of suffering for the same reason. In the moments when it doesn't wreck me emotionally and make me feel sadness and fear about being alone in the world, it's such a repetitive thought that it can honestly get boring. 
 
On one level, I can see that this is a problem that is within my control to solve. Not by changing others, but by changing my own mind. If I didn't give as much weight to the thought "they should be acting differently", I'd almost definitely feel much better (shoutout to Byron Katie).
 
However, I worry that not taking this thought seriously would turn me into a pushover. I've struggled in the past with putting my own emotions on the backburner for the sake of others and have been trying not to do this. I know that addressing this thought more directly would benefit me, not just the people who don't want to do what I ask of them. But I still feel a resistance to becoming okay with what they're doing. I'm not entirely sure how to tell whether I'm primarily changing my relationship to my thoughts for their sake or for my own. I am also aware of the thought "It's bad to be a pushover" and am not sure how much weight to give to it.
 
What's the balance between asking/wanting others to accommodate my feelings and taking responsibility for my own feelings?

Note: If anyone's interested in this topic, I'd recommend the Ram Dass Here and Now podcast Ep. 17 is on the Yoga of Relationships. It's excellent at characterizing the general issue but doesn't get much into how to practice this. 

Yes.

You have been given a possible "handle" to...well..

A handle...

Step off your flagpole...

And embrace yer destiny...
Dan..Come on...

Step off yer flagpole...

Lemme know where I can meet you in person...

Let's finish it...

emoticon As a moderator and a fellow human being, I find this latest post unsettling. It sounds like a threat to me. That's not okay in my book. Consider this a sharp warning. 

Any comments to that?
Violence...

It's been "baked in" Linda...

[font=lyon-text, Georgia, Cambria, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]CASE #42:    Hui-ke Offers His Arm[font=lyon-text, Georgia, Cambria, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]Bodhidharma sat in a cave for nine years gazing at the wall. Hui-ke arrived to inquire about the dharma, but Bodhidharma refused to teach him. Finally, taking a knife, Hui-ke cut off his own arm and presented it as an offering to Bodhidharma, who agreed to become his teacher.

What school are you part of???

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/19/20 6:01 PM as a reply to Yuri K.
Very mature, dude...

I'm eclectic, and one of my many criteria for trusting a teacher is that they do not collect body parts (well, except for relics subsequent to a natural death, because come to think of it, one of my teachers actually carries an item close to her heart that contains grinded nails from her teacher who recently passed away, and she tells stories about smuggling some rather suspicious-looking relics on her travels with the rinpoche as they are used in rituals, but that is considered respectful and sacred and involves consent from the realized teachers before death occurs).

What is it that you feel the need to get out of this? If you are looking for some kind of revenge, I can't help you. If you just want somebody to hear you out when you explain why this is so important to you, I could probably do that, depending on what it would involve. I know how frustrating it can be not to feel heard. If you need to convince somebody that Daniel is A Bad Guy, it is highly unlikely that talking to me would have the desired outcome, though, so that would be a waste of energy and time for both of us. Posting threats here on the forum is not a viable option, and quite frankly, I can't see how that makes you any happier either. 

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/20/20 5:57 AM as a reply to Yuri K.
Yuri K:
Yuri K:
M:
I feel confused about how to apply meditative insights in my relationships and would really appreciate some guidance.

I repeatedly find myself getting upset by the same thing. If I feel like someone is brushing off my emotions, it triggers thoughts like "No one cares about me" and "They should take my emotions seriously".
 
Over the past few years, I've tried to deal with this by making concrete changes in my relationships. I've cultivated friendships with people who are genuinely kind. I've practiced Nonviolent Communication so that I can communicate with and empathize with others more effectively. I've learned to spot "red flags" that I used to ignore.
 
Yet, I still find myself getting upset by the same thing over and over and over again. I'm tired of suffering for the same reason. In the moments when it doesn't wreck me emotionally and make me feel sadness and fear about being alone in the world, it's such a repetitive thought that it can honestly get boring. 
 
On one level, I can see that this is a problem that is within my control to solve. Not by changing others, but by changing my own mind. If I didn't give as much weight to the thought "they should be acting differently", I'd almost definitely feel much better (shoutout to Byron Katie).
 
However, I worry that not taking this thought seriously would turn me into a pushover. I've struggled in the past with putting my own emotions on the backburner for the sake of others and have been trying not to do this. I know that addressing this thought more directly would benefit me, not just the people who don't want to do what I ask of them. But I still feel a resistance to becoming okay with what they're doing. I'm not entirely sure how to tell whether I'm primarily changing my relationship to my thoughts for their sake or for my own. I am also aware of the thought "It's bad to be a pushover" and am not sure how much weight to give to it.
 
What's the balance between asking/wanting others to accommodate my feelings and taking responsibility for my own feelings?

Note: If anyone's interested in this topic, I'd recommend the Ram Dass Here and Now podcast Ep. 17 is on the Yoga of Relationships. It's excellent at characterizing the general issue but doesn't get much into how to practice this. 

Yes.

You have been given a possible "handle" to...well..

A handle...

Step off your flagpole...

And embrace yer destiny...
Dan..Come on...

Step off yer flagpole...

Lemme know where I can meet you in person...

Let's finish it...

Yuri, I remember you. You're that nice engineer. RE: "That nice engineer" - Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org

First of all, why crash this thread, of all places? M is a decent guy struggling to find his balance in the world. He doesn't need weird enigmatic bolts from the blue from someone willing to present as a nut job. And you don't care about his welfare in the least. You just want to drop your stink bomb and let everyone know you're here.

Second, why crash in at all? Seriously. I know the depth and range of your intelligence; I've seen your sense of humor, you actually have one. Yet your sense of your own superiority cripples you socially, you come across badly, and you don't care, or at least insist to yourself that you don't. Yet you show up in a place like this and beg for negative attention. And you seemed determined to let a bygone instant of pricked spiritual pride poison your heart and mind. Why?

And now you're talking "violence"? I flagged your posts, for that ugly note. We tried to joke it through last time, but this shit's not funny, my friend. I really don't know what you're doing here and I don't see how any good can come of it.

tim

[later edit] Yuri, whatever else, this thread of M's is not the place to have this conversation. I would invite you to the Bar(do) of Last Resort---   The Bar(do) of Last Resort 3.0 - Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org --- if you do wish to continue. I will buy you a drink, and the place is serving a whole new line of desserts, Samsara Cakes, with the violence baked right in.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/20/20 4:54 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Well, this is an excellent test run for me as a new moderator. I have been suspecting that some of the technical rights didn't come through, and that seems indeed to be the case. The option to ban a member is in place, but other options such as seeing flags are missing, as far as I can tell. This is great. Now I don't need to start a test thread, and when the technical issues are solved, I get to see how flags show up at the moderator's end. 

Yuri, that gives you some time to think this through. I would like the flags to stay there until I can see them, so I won't ban you before that unless you give me another reason. If you want to stay a member, be good. 

M, I'm sorry for the disruptions to your thread. 

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/20/20 5:02 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Helen Pohl:
If you set clear boundaries with people, and stand by them, no one will be able to push you around. 

It can be uncomfortable as hell at first when people react to your new behaviour, but it'll be worth it in the long run. emoticon

aloha helen,


   This is the practical solution for not being a pushover, as most women can tell us. Women are often assumed to be pushovers unless they insist on standing their ground.

   I would guess M didn't have a sister.

   These conflicts are generally acted out and mastered in childhood and adolescence in a healthy family. Initital boundaries are set by the parents, such as "don't hit your sister." When children were asked what they most liked hearing their parents say to them, it was overwhelmingly something like "Tell your brother to come here right now!"

   Pathology enters in when we repress negative feelings towards our familial rivals for parental affection. The older child is no longer the baby, but he's big enough to beat on the littler one. Transpose this to adult relations and you have typical conflicts, rooted in childhood pathologies and emotional traumas. Some children survive poor parenting, while others resist even the best.

   Where the nuclear family has been atomized, poor parenting and subsequent conflict become the norm.

   (In noah's ark we enter two by two.)


terry

Whoops, I missed your post it seems. 

I do feel it's true a lot of what we act out in adulthood has its roots in what we experienced as children. I know I learned some stuff from how my parents were and behaved in the world e g my feelings of not being important*. We internalize stuff before we can even put it into words. But seeing it means it has less power over me. I can choose how to relate to this, so I mostly think "oh, it's you again" and it loses its hold on me. 
Hopefully I, you and the OP will realize this more and more and become empowered. 

I can say a lot on this subject but I'm tired and my thoughts feel jumbled at the moment. >_<

*=though in some ways it's a relief being just anyone, not special, not important =)

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/20/20 5:06 AM as a reply to Helen Pohl.
That's good stuff, Helen. 

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/26/20 1:37 PM as a reply to George S.
agnostic:
agnostic:
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


love it when men generalize about men generalizing...

lol...
Exactly what did he generalize, though? I only saw him implicitly make the point that in actual cases where he sees a man talk about what "most women" are like, he can't help thinking that maybe it might be good to keep in mind that they lack both the insider's perspective and sufficient data. Did he touch a nerve? *wink* 


   I took it as mindless political correctness reflexively used to discourage the assertion of generalities regardless of their truth.

   Is it any better that a man assert what most men are like, as george implicitly does? 

   We've spoken about boundaries before, you and I. It was notable that in a discussion of being a pushover only helen raised the issue of setting boundaries to avoid being pushed over, which I thought was the "obvious" solution, and said so.

   Yeah, george can get on my nerves, if he really wants to. At least until I catch on.

"wink"


terry

That's the first time anyone has accused me of being politically correct. Thanks for the compliment.

I definitely didn't say anything about what most men are like, although I can see why you might want to see it that way.

I could get used to this habit of yours of replying with quote to everything. It feels so masculine to be able to occupy so much of the territory in the thread at the click of a button. Just gotta find me some long quotes from the chinese scriptures now ....

Oh yeah and start replying to myself. God that feels good


tao te ching, trans yutang


28. KEEPING TO THE FEMALE

He who is aware of the Male
But keeps to the Female
   Becomes the ravine of the world.
Being the ravine of the world,
   He has the original character (teh) which is not cut up.
   And returns again to the (innocence of the) babe.

He who is conscious of the white (bright)
But keeps to the black (dark)
   Becomes the model for the world.
Being the model for the world,
   He has the eternal power which never errs,
   And returns again to the Primordial Nothingness.

He who is familiar with honor and glory
But keeps to obscurity
   Becomes the valley of the world.
Being the valley of the world,
   He has an eternal power which always suffices,
   And returns again to the natural integrity of uncarved wood.

Break up this uncarved wood
   And it is shaped into vessel
In the hands of the Sage
   They become the officials and magistrates.
   Therefore the great ruler does not cut up.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/26/20 2:28 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
agnostic:
agnostic:
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


love it when men generalize about men generalizing...

lol...
Exactly what did he generalize, though? I only saw him implicitly make the point that in actual cases where he sees a man talk about what "most women" are like, he can't help thinking that maybe it might be good to keep in mind that they lack both the insider's perspective and sufficient data. Did he touch a nerve? *wink* 


   I took it as mindless political correctness reflexively used to discourage the assertion of generalities regardless of their truth.

   Is it any better that a man assert what most men are like, as george implicitly does? 

   We've spoken about boundaries before, you and I. It was notable that in a discussion of being a pushover only helen raised the issue of setting boundaries to avoid being pushed over, which I thought was the "obvious" solution, and said so.

   Yeah, george can get on my nerves, if he really wants to. At least until I catch on.

"wink"


terry

That's the first time anyone has accused me of being politically correct. Thanks for the compliment.

I definitely didn't say anything about what most men are like, although I can see why you might want to see it that way.

I could get used to this habit of yours of replying with quote to everything. It feels so masculine to be able to occupy so much of the territory in the thread at the click of a button. Just gotta find me some long quotes from the chinese scriptures now ....

Oh yeah and start replying to myself. God that feels good


tao te ching, trans yutang


28. KEEPING TO THE FEMALE

He who is aware of the Male
But keeps to the Female
   Becomes the ravine of the world.
Being the ravine of the world,
   He has the original character (teh) which is not cut up.
   And returns again to the (innocence of the) babe.

He who is conscious of the white (bright)
But keeps to the black (dark)
   Becomes the model for the world.
Being the model for the world,
   He has the eternal power which never errs,
   And returns again to the Primordial Nothingness.

He who is familiar with honor and glory
But keeps to obscurity
   Becomes the valley of the world.
Being the valley of the world,
   He has an eternal power which always suffices,
   And returns again to the natural integrity of uncarved wood.

Break up this uncarved wood
   And it is shaped into vessel
In the hands of the Sage
   They become the officials and magistrates.
   Therefore the great ruler does not cut up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvM7AWxk1Ng

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?
Answer
12/30/20 11:36 AM as a reply to terry.




from "all the world n icon" by tom cheetham





“Poets and troubadours speak out of love, and out of soul. Every creative act comes out of darkness and requires us to stand on the edge of the unknown, the edge of chaos. That place of unknowing is sacred. It is sacred because we know we may pay for the privilege of standing there with our blood. Every creative act is a risk. It entails a willingness to sacrifice who we think we are and what we think we know. Each creative act is a wager on the existence of something not yet brought into being. The act of creation, like the longing of love, depends on a faith in the Angel out ahead and the dark opening that She creates and into which we are struggling to move. Creation is born of love and longing, and love is always paired with pain. Loving provides the energy for creation because the longing for that figure of beauty pulls us into the void that opens in Her absence. Sometimes we feel only the void and the pain. Every creative act is a prayer born of the longing to fill that emptiness. Henry Corbin teaches us that “prayer is not a request for something: it is the expression of a mode of being, a means of existing and of causing to exist.” It is the attempt to fill that pregnant darkness. Corbin says “Prayer is the highest form, the supreme act of the Creative Imagination.” Longing and nostalgia are the energy of ta’wil, the energy of prayer—they draw the soul through the darkness and toward the flame.

To speak the language of the Angels, to recover the lost speech, requires of us that our words be born anew, like Aphrodite rising from the sea. The creative moment of ta’wil means speaking out of love—words come up dripping out of the dark and are offered in sacrifice in the presence of that distant Angel who keeps us always at sea, always in the dark, and always loving.”

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