New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
I've been posting on this forum here and there and it was suggested I keep it to one practice thread. So this will be the one and only. emoticon

I had a fascinating insight in a dream last night. But first, let me tell you a bit about my practice.

Basically, I have HAIETMOBA running naturally a lot of the time now. Not enough yet, but I keep practicing. It becomes easier and easier.

A lot of feelings have gone, even the good ones are going away and instead I have an external focus on the world. It's not a direct experience as in actualism yet, it's filtered. But sometimes the filter drops and it's beautiful.

Now, back to my dream. Through all this, I was worried about something.

*Warning, extreme examples here*. These examples do get to the core of things that are important to humanity though.

What if you saw your 6 year old kid get crushed by a bus, and you felt no sorrow?

This is not a primary thought I had, but fits in the line of thinking I had about this stuff. I dreamed the example above (don't have kids btw, my mind tends to give me what I need in my dreams). In everyday situations it was less extreme, but my mind wanted to teach me a lesson I wouldn't forget.

My concern was, if you have no feelings, if you are then still happy and harmless, something doesn't seem right.

Well, in this dream the terrible accident happened. And I saw it as Richard would see it. Not in reality, I can't know that, but it's about the lesson. In this dream, he still would have no feelings, they would remain unaffected. But his thoughts filtered it in a way that gave it it's proper place. The thoughts provided the accurate perception, without feelings getting generated.

Then, in comparison, my dream gave me another perception. A random adult stranger getting run over by a bus. Dream-Richard's perceptions were of the sort that it was bad, but not anywhere close as being as bad as when it's your kid.

So I learned that you can have no feelings. Be happy and harmless. And yet clearly filter the bad things in the world and give them proper meaning.

Anyway, that's where I'm at.

Always appreciate comments, suggestions and advice!
adam h, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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The eye doesn't think anything it sees is bad, it is only the self that can view things as good or bad. No example you can think of no matter how extreme could cause a flesh and blood body sorrow or malice in any form. When you renounce the compassion, desire, anger and fear and the self has no existence, no good and bad are perceived. A flesh and blood body in the situation you described would help to better the situation in whatever way his intellect perceived as best, but he would at no time regret that the child was run over, be irritated by the fact that the child was dying, or worry about the child's death in the near future. It would make no difference whether it was his child or a random adult stranger other than the way in which it seemed best to handle the situation. A flesh and blood body wouldn't see the event as good or bad.

I can understand how this may feel "wrong," actualism is utterly counter-intuitive, it can't be felt out. I would suggest that dreams, feelings, and intuition are perhaps the furthest thing from a reliable source for insight.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
adam h:
The eye doesn't think anything it sees is bad, it is only the self that can view things as good or bad. No example you can think of no matter how extreme could cause a flesh and blood body sorrow or malice in any form. When you renounce the compassion, desire, anger and fear and the self has no existence, no good and bad are perceived. A flesh and blood body in the situation you described would help to better the situation in whatever way his intellect perceived as best, but he would at no time regret that the child was run over, be irritated by the fact that the child was dying, or worry about the child's death in the near future. It would make no difference whether it was his child or a random adult stranger other than the way in which it seemed best to handle the situation. A flesh and blood body wouldn't see the event as good or bad.

I can understand how this may feel "wrong," actualism is utterly counter-intuitive, it can't be felt out. I would suggest that dreams, feelings, and intuition are perhaps the furthest thing from a reliable source for insight.


Perhaps, but I do remember Richard saying that in his experience, there is a certain form of thought, which is stripped from emotion and thus utterly clear.

Also, he does voice opinions on his site, so there has to be some sort of sorting mechanism in actual freedom, right?
adam h, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Certainly there is clear thought stripped of emotional content, and thus thought that doesn't judge things as good or bad, that pure thought is basically just problem solving, it is the manifestation of benevolent intent.

As for "Richard's opinions," if you could give an example that would help, but in general something a flesh and blood body could communicate that could be perceived as opinion could just be a statement of fact that contains no judgment in it.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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adam h:
Certainly there is clear thought stripped of emotional content, and thus thought that doesn't judge things as good or bad, that pure thought is basically just problem solving, it is the manifestation of benevolent intent.

As for "Richard's opinions," if you could give an example that would help, but in general something a flesh and blood body could communicate that could be perceived as opinion could just be a statement of fact that contains no judgment in it.


Well, for example, his main message is a viewpoint and it's results contain his opinions about it.

He says that to be actually free, you need to get rid of the self in toto and live as this flesh and blood body. He states that to have have real peace on earth, one needs to become happy and harmless in AF. The implied message all over his site is that this is a good thing though. And that's his opinion.

He sets the human condition up as being a bad thing, and AF as the solution; a good thing for the world.

So there are clearly opinions in his work. They may not be based on any normal human functioning mechanism of forming opinions, but he does have and expresses them.
adam h, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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I think the issue here may have been introducing the word "opinion" let's talk about what "Richard" or any other flesh and blood body has or does not have in the terms laid out by the Actual Freedom Trust website.

Richard:
The way of becoming actually free is both simple and practical. One starts by dismantling the shadowy social identity which has been overlaid, from birth onward, on top of the innate self until one is virtually free from all the social mores and psittacisms (those mechanical repetitions of previously received ideas or images, reflecting neither apperception nor autonomous reasoning). One can be virtually free from all the beliefs, ideas, values, theories, truths, customs, traditions, ideals, superstitions and all the other schemes and dreams. One can become aware of all the socialisation, of all the conditioning, of all the programming, of all the methods and techniques which were used to produce what one feels and thus thinks oneself to be: a wayward identity careering around in confusion and illusion. A ‘mature adult’ is actually a lost, lonely, frightened and very cunning entity. However, it is never too late to start in on uncovering and discovering what one actually is.

One can become virtually free from all the insidious feelings – the emotions and passions and calentures – which fuel the mind and give credence to all the illusions and delusions and fantasies and hallucinations which masquerade as visions of The Truth. One can become virtually free of all that which has encumbered humans with misery and despair and live in a state of virtual freedom … which is beyond ‘normal’ human expectations anyway. Then, and only then, can the day of destiny dawn wherein one becomes actually free. One will have obtained release from one’s fate and achieved one’s birthright … and the world will be all the better for it.


You:

He sets the human condition up as being a bad thing, and AF as the solution; a good thing for the world.

He speaks in terms of the human condition encumbering "humans with misery and despair" he certainly implies that this is desirable, but this is all a different sort of thing than "dream Richard's" perceptions about a child being hit by a bus or an adult being hit by a bus. A flesh and blood body perceives a child being hit by a bus simply as a child being hit by a bus.

The reason I'm posting is to address your concern in your first post about a flesh and blood body not feeling sorrow under certain circumstances, this concern was apparently rectified in a dream about a flesh and blood body having the "accurate" perception that the circumstances were bad. The thing is, the flesh and blood body wouldn't have the perception that that thing is bad.

I did plenty of theorizing about being without self, but being without self can't really be understood at all until you have a pure consciousness experience which you can remember and refer to in your thinking. Wait until you have a PCE, then try to think about your concern either with that experience as a reference point or while experiencing that mode of consciousness. In your thread "God, what is wrong with you" you made a valid point, that people tend to legitimize all their issues as opposed to simply applying actualism methods of attentiveness and sensuousness. Instead of viewing imagined situations and abstract concerns with actual freedom as legitimate issues, apply investigation to them.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
adam h:
I think the issue here may have been introducing the word "opinion" let's talk about what "Richard" or any other flesh and blood body has or does not have in the terms laid out by the Actual Freedom Trust website.

Richard:
The way of becoming actually free is both simple and practical. One starts by dismantling the shadowy social identity which has been overlaid, from birth onward, on top of the innate self until one is virtually free from all the social mores and psittacisms (those mechanical repetitions of previously received ideas or images, reflecting neither apperception nor autonomous reasoning). One can be virtually free from all the beliefs, ideas, values, theories, truths, customs, traditions, ideals, superstitions and all the other schemes and dreams. One can become aware of all the socialisation, of all the conditioning, of all the programming, of all the methods and techniques which were used to produce what one feels and thus thinks oneself to be: a wayward identity careering around in confusion and illusion. A ‘mature adult’ is actually a lost, lonely, frightened and very cunning entity. However, it is never too late to start in on uncovering and discovering what one actually is.

One can become virtually free from all the insidious feelings – the emotions and passions and calentures – which fuel the mind and give credence to all the illusions and delusions and fantasies and hallucinations which masquerade as visions of The Truth. One can become virtually free of all that which has encumbered humans with misery and despair and live in a state of virtual freedom … which is beyond ‘normal’ human expectations anyway. Then, and only then, can the day of destiny dawn wherein one becomes actually free. One will have obtained release from one’s fate and achieved one’s birthright … and the world will be all the better for it.


You:

He sets the human condition up as being a bad thing, and AF as the solution; a good thing for the world.

He speaks in terms of the human condition encumbering "humans with misery and despair" he certainly implies that this is desirable, but this is all a different sort of thing than "dream Richard's" perceptions about a child being hit by a bus or an adult being hit by a bus. A flesh and blood body perceives a child being hit by a bus simply as a child being hit by a bus.

The reason I'm posting is to address your concern in your first post about a flesh and blood body not feeling sorrow under certain circumstances, this concern was apparently rectified in a dream about a flesh and blood body having the "accurate" perception that the circumstances were bad. The thing is, the flesh and blood body wouldn't have the perception that that thing is bad.

I did plenty of theorizing about being without self, but being without self can't really be understood at all until you have a pure consciousness experience which you can remember and refer to in your thinking. Wait until you have a PCE, then try to think about your concern either with that experience as a reference point or while experiencing that mode of consciousness. In your thread "God, what is wrong with you" you made a valid point, that people tend to legitimize all their issues as opposed to simply applying actualism methods of attentiveness and sensuousness. Instead of viewing imagined situations and abstract concerns with actual freedom as legitimate issues, apply investigation to them.


I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you, but that's what discussions are for.

If you were to ask Richard "What would be better, half of the world being happy or everyone being happy?" I'm sure he would have an intelligent opinion.

If you ask him "Was WWII a bad thing?", I am certain he would say that it was indeed a bad thing.

If you ask him "Is someone getting beaten up, needing some stitches and be fine less bad than WWII?" I'm sure he would say yes.

Being this flesh and blood body, as in actualism, does not do away with opinions. Your intelligence becomes clearer, so that you can actually see the differences in things clearly as opposed to be clouded by emotion and feeling.

Part of this is from my own experience. I've been practicing a lot. In a PCE, you can experience the world as magical, but if someone comes up and kills the person next to you, the magic doesn't fade. But the intelligence knows that it is a bad thing and appropriate action needs to be taken.
adam h, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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I tried a couple of approaches in my reply, but considering your probable reception of them and reactive replies, I decided it wouldn't really do any good. So rather than say nothing I'll just suggest that you try to really focus on sincerity in your practice.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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adam h:
I tried a couple of approaches in my reply, but considering your probable reception of them and reactive replies, I decided it wouldn't really do any good. So rather than say nothing I'll just suggest that you try to really focus on sincerity in your practice.


We were having a nice discussion, but now you seem to point it towards me needing more sincerity in my practice.

Which part got to you so that you responded in this manner?
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
adam h:
I tried a couple of approaches in my reply, but considering your probable reception of them and reactive replies, I decided it wouldn't really do any good. So rather than say nothing I'll just suggest that you try to really focus on sincerity in your practice.


Ok, I had to reply a bit more to help you out.

This response reeks of bitterness. You perceived my possible responses, and you filter them in a way that they are negative to your position.

Sincerity isn't an issue, believe me.

What you can't seem be able to handle is being wrong. Look into that.

This is well meant.

But, and this is my impression, you have not done the AF practice much. Otherwise this reply wouldn't have existed.

My guess is that you might even have seen some confrontational ism in my reply. There isn't. And if your first impulse is to deny, while your denial does seem to be true, you have fallen in the trap of lying to yourself. Examine that.

No hard feelings here, believe me. I know emotions.

Apply some honesty to your responses and state of mind, *Real* honesty. You seem to have been filtering this conversation and discussion in a, sorry to say this, bit "out of touch with what's actually going on" way.

Why have I even bothered to add this? To help you. Your reply was a little odd (it's ok, this whole AF deal can trigger some stuff), but I would like to give you another shot.

Go for it!
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Hi Simon,

I just thought I'd share some of my own experience on the way to AF.

'I' thought I knew everything. 'I' was very good at this AF practice. But when 'I' was questioned and seemingly criticised, 'I' felt the need to flow and protect 'myself' and school others in what knowledge 'I' had. Even though others may have been talking out their arses 'I' still had to flow and protect my well won knowledge and experiences.

'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', an endless unhindered flow of 'I'.

When I dropped all the defensiveness and the need to attack and defend, fully aiming for complete harmlessness, regardless of whether 'I' was right or wrong, THAT is when I made real progress. The less fuel 'I' gave to 'myself' via defending and attacking, the more 'I' thinned out and gave way to actuality. The more 'I' gave fuel to the feelings that were 'me', the more 'I' flowed and covered up actuality.


The disharmony you’ve observed is the human condition, and it has ‘been there’ (naturally) since time immemorial. It is ‘both sides of this coin’ and the stress perceived to be between them as well … after all, ‘I’ am the ‘human condition’ and the ‘human condition’ is ‘me’.

What I once noticed was that when I held no allegiances, there was nothing to defend. With nothing to defend, I grew dispassionate. Without ally or enemy, the need for 'defense' born of fear and 'offense' born of aggression became utterly redundant. I dropped all 'my' armaments and became harmless … and a delicately sweet peace settled all about. Such is the result of a mind which refuses ill-will for any and every reason it can find; which may mean simply rejecting it by principle, or perhaps because of some specific reasoning.

So the notion about whether it ‘shouldn’t be there’ is beside the point, because it is already there. 'I' am both the 'offense' and 'defense', and it is because 'I' have chosen 'sides'. A more relevant question, then, may be: what am I going to do about it? Do 'I' dare care enough about ‘humanity’ to abandon it and all of the various divisions and groups that make it up? Trent

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1858627




Nick
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Hi Simon,

I just thought I'd share some of my own experience on the way to AF.

'I' thought I knew everything. 'I' was very good at this AF practice. But when 'I' was questioned and seemingly criticised, 'I' felt the need to flow and protect 'myself' and school others in what knowledge 'I' had. Even though others may have been talking out their arses 'I' still had to flow and protect my well won knowledge and experiences.

'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', 'I', an endless unhindered flow of 'I'.

When I dropped all the defensiveness and the need to attack and defend, fully aiming for complete harmlessness, regardless of whether 'I' was right or wrong, THAT is when I made real progress. The less fuel 'I' gave to 'myself' via defending and attacking, the more 'I' thinned out and gave way to actuality. The more 'I' gave fuel to the feelings that were 'me', the more 'I' flowed and covered up actuality.


The disharmony you’ve observed is the human condition, and it has ‘been there’ (naturally) since time immemorial. It is ‘both sides of this coin’ and the stress perceived to be between them as well … after all, ‘I’ am the ‘human condition’ and the ‘human condition’ is ‘me’.

What I once noticed was that when I held no allegiances, there was nothing to defend. With nothing to defend, I grew dispassionate. Without ally or enemy, the need for 'defense' born of fear and 'offense' born of aggression became utterly redundant. I dropped all 'my' armaments and became harmless … and a delicately sweet peace settled all about. Such is the result of a mind which refuses ill-will for any and every reason it can find; which may mean simply rejecting it by principle, or perhaps because of some specific reasoning.

So the notion about whether it ‘shouldn’t be there’ is beside the point, because it is already there. 'I' am both the 'offense' and 'defense', and it is because 'I' have chosen 'sides'. A more relevant question, then, may be: what am I going to do about it? Do 'I' dare care enough about ‘humanity’ to abandon it and all of the various divisions and groups that make it up? Trent

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1858627




Nick


Hey thanks, this is really helpful.

As I was reading your reply, I made the decision to from now on only reply from my own experience and progress, rather than theorizing about and drawing conclusions from things I only have read about.
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Harry Potter, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Hi Simon,

How has actualism affected a) how you spend your time alone, b) your interactions with people in real life?
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Harry Potter:
Hi Simon,

How has actualism affected a) how you spend your time alone, b) your interactions with people in real life?


Hi Harry,

Nice questions, and thanks for your interest.

a) How I spend my time alone hasn't changed much, when I'm at home. I tend to be a bit more relaxed and get stuff done more easily, but at home I feel depressed and empty at times. It's a tough one for me to break through. But am working on it.

Outside of home it's a whole different story. I'm very much into the experience of making progress, my mind seems to activate when I'm walking outside and takes all these positive steps. I don't even have to make an effort anymore.

One important thing to note though: I do not necessarily see AF as my ultimate outcome, it's just a practice that I integrated. As long as I personally am not convinced that I have come to the full end point, I take no one on their word for it. It's a bit of a trap, if you believe on particular thing is "it", you close your mind to other possibilities.

So my goal is to get to the end point for myself. And the actualism practice has helped me tremendously. I'm just not taking Richard's, or anyone's word for it that AF is the desired outcome, unless I know this for myself.

I believe there is a perfect way of functioning for humans and that's where I'm going. Don't know what it is, maybe AF, maybe something else. But the actualism practice fits perfectly into what I was already doing and what I needed, so I've adopted it.

A bit of a tangent from your question. Spending my time alone I am not functioning well yet. Lazy, depressed, overcome with boredom. Unless, as I mentioned, I go outside.

b) This area has changed tremendously. I used to be shy, insecure. But now I feel more confident, have more fun and appreciate people more. I can now walk up to someone and make decent eye contact and talk with them in a fun-loving manner.

I hope this answers your questions.

May I perhaps ask you a bit of a personal one? No need to respond if you don't want to.

I've always been sensitive to people's feelings and thoughts.

And, and this is no criticism, just observation, but I sense from you some frustration (about the practice), strong desire (to get over your problems), insecurity (as in being insecure as a person), being lost (on how to get results). Stuff like that. Maybe some other things.

If any of this is getting in your way, and if I'm right in the first place, those are some things you might want to look into. Especially focusing on eliminating those negative feelings that cause these things.
Nad A., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 237 Join Date: 8/26/10 Recent Posts
Simon L:
I do not necessarily see AF as my ultimate outcome


How does this square with PCEs you had, and the times when you thought you were living constantly on the border of a PCE? What do you think of them now?
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Nad A.:
Simon L:
I do not necessarily see AF as my ultimate outcome


How does this square with PCEs you had, and the times when you thought you were living constantly on the border of a PCE? What do you think of them now?


Just an experience. A good one nevertheless, but they have never given me the sense that they were "it".

I have had full blown PCE's. In fact, in Richard's story he talks about his own experiences with them.

I just cannot see how living in that state permanently is desirable, unless your goal is to be happy and harmless.

I believe there may be a way to function as a human that is as harmless as in AF, without AF being the state to be in.

A PCE gives me the sense of utter perfection. But it is not realistic to me. It is an experience, possibly helping one to get to the end goal.

I see the perfect state as being this entity, inhabiting this body, realizing there is no real self, stripped from problematic responses. Non-problematic lust would be ok then, for example.

That's it at this point. It's not about getting rid of all the things that make us human, it's about getting rid of the problematic parts.

You could argue that AF does that, but it destroys the being.

Some parts of the entity are good, some are a problem. The problems need to go, not the entity.
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Harry Potter, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Simon L:

[...] at home I feel depressed and empty at times. It's a tough one for me to break through. But am working on it.
*
[...] I used to be shy, insecure. But now I feel more confident, have more fun and appreciate people more. I can now walk up to someone and make decent eye contact and talk with them in a fun-loving manner.


Do you realize that practice threads here are meant to talk much about the application of the AF method than your dreams and doubts? A good example of that would be to talk about the beliefs behind "feeling depressed and empty" at home, or the beliefs being being "shy" and "insecure" and how they are seen through completely(?) resulting in feeling confident.

Here is another good example from the AF site,

GARY:

I have not had any ‘friends’ for such a long time now. I always have been quite a loner. It used to bother me that I did not have many friends – a voice kept playing in my head telling me that this was not ‘normal’ and I ‘should’ have more friends, even though I did not want any. I have found the whole process of ‘making friends’ and ‘keeping friends’ so wearying that I am glad to have dispelled with the whole process. It is not that I am anti-social. While still a loner, I do enjoy the company of other people and I get the feeling that they enjoy mine. I go out socially from time to time. There is no one I feel I dislike. But I don’t go out of my way to ‘make friends’. At a social gathering, if my partner is with me, I mostly stay with her. In a larger social situation, I feel content to mix with people not in my immediate group, or try to get to know new people. It is so nice to talk to people and not to feel held down by allegiance to certain selected ‘friends’, cliques, or subgroups. In a social situation at work, I like to mix with people not in my immediate work group. I like to ‘cross the lines’ in other words. Growing up, I remember being terrified of people – I would actually flee the house when friends of the family or other adults came over, so I suppose most of my isolative, loner-like tendencies are hold overs from growing up. I am still aware that there is that fear of people and fear of strangers underlying my social interactions with others. After all, most people are socialized to be afraid of ‘strangers’ – I seem to recall running across that in the actualism literature somewhere- although the paradox is that most people are the most hurt and traumatized by the people they are closest to. I find it interesting sometimes to just observe people and be open to what is happening in social situations.

Sometimes when in a restaurant, I like (if I am feeling in a particularly receptive mood) to sit across from someone else who is by themselves and just be aware of their presence.

Not spying on them mind you, but just be aware of them sitting there as they are undoubtedly aware of me sitting there. There may be a glance, a smile, etc, or there may not be. The old Gary would seclude himself from interaction and nurture his fears of others to the point of being a recluse. The process of actualism is not a process of isolation from others – it is a process of becoming fully engaged in the wondrous experience of being alive in the present moment. It is a process of learning how to live in the world as-it-is, with people as-they-are. It is an active investigation of these fears that hold one back from enjoying, indeed delighting, in the present moment.


PS. your doubt is probably same as the "Life without Feelings is Barren" misconception (discussed in detail here)
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Harry Potter:
Simon L:

[...] at home I feel depressed and empty at times. It's a tough one for me to break through. But am working on it.
*
[...] I used to be shy, insecure. But now I feel more confident, have more fun and appreciate people more. I can now walk up to someone and make decent eye contact and talk with them in a fun-loving manner.


Do you realize that practice threads here are meant to talk much about the application of the AF method than your dreams and doubts? A good example of that would be to talk about the beliefs behind "feeling depressed and empty" at home, or the beliefs being being "shy" and "insecure" and how they are seen through completely(?) resulting in feeling confident.

Here is another good example from the AF site,

GARY:

I have not had any ‘friends’ for such a long time now. I always have been quite a loner. It used to bother me that I did not have many friends – a voice kept playing in my head telling me that this was not ‘normal’ and I ‘should’ have more friends, even though I did not want any. I have found the whole process of ‘making friends’ and ‘keeping friends’ so wearying that I am glad to have dispelled with the whole process. It is not that I am anti-social. While still a loner, I do enjoy the company of other people and I get the feeling that they enjoy mine. I go out socially from time to time. There is no one I feel I dislike. But I don’t go out of my way to ‘make friends’. At a social gathering, if my partner is with me, I mostly stay with her. In a larger social situation, I feel content to mix with people not in my immediate group, or try to get to know new people. It is so nice to talk to people and not to feel held down by allegiance to certain selected ‘friends’, cliques, or subgroups. In a social situation at work, I like to mix with people not in my immediate work group. I like to ‘cross the lines’ in other words. Growing up, I remember being terrified of people – I would actually flee the house when friends of the family or other adults came over, so I suppose most of my isolative, loner-like tendencies are hold overs from growing up. I am still aware that there is that fear of people and fear of strangers underlying my social interactions with others. After all, most people are socialized to be afraid of ‘strangers’ – I seem to recall running across that in the actualism literature somewhere- although the paradox is that most people are the most hurt and traumatized by the people they are closest to. I find it interesting sometimes to just observe people and be open to what is happening in social situations.

Sometimes when in a restaurant, I like (if I am feeling in a particularly receptive mood) to sit across from someone else who is by themselves and just be aware of their presence.

Not spying on them mind you, but just be aware of them sitting there as they are undoubtedly aware of me sitting there. There may be a glance, a smile, etc, or there may not be. The old Gary would seclude himself from interaction and nurture his fears of others to the point of being a recluse. The process of actualism is not a process of isolation from others – it is a process of becoming fully engaged in the wondrous experience of being alive in the present moment. It is a process of learning how to live in the world as-it-is, with people as-they-are. It is an active investigation of these fears that hold one back from enjoying, indeed delighting, in the present moment.


PS. your doubt is probably same as the "Life without Feelings is Barren" misconception (discussed in detail here)


Thanks,

Although I realize that the practice threads are about the application of the method, and I assume also what the results are.

Today I got to a longer experience of almost seeing the actual world, I was looking at a tree as I was walking along and it was just... there. My mind processed it a few moments during this experience, giving me a clearer view of the fact that AF really is faulty.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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I am going to quit my AF practice. After studying, applying and experiencing it, I have found many places in which Richard is wrong and I can see how he got to those points through experiencing moments of his type of freedom.

I had a great time here though.

Be well folks!
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Simon L:
I am going to quit my AF practice. After studying, applying and experiencing it, I have found many places in which Richard is wrong and I can see how he got to those points through experiencing moments of his type of freedom.

I had a great time here though.

Be well folks!


A few weeks later and still shaking off the AF practice. Keep having these PCE's, hope they will go.

I'm really concerned. I think that AF is a path into insanity.

If you're at the end of your ropes and want to escape misery, it might sound good, but it's not worth it.

The foundation this is based on, the perfectness, or even the evidence Richard found in the PCE is a flawed foundation. In the PCE you are in an experience that, at that moment, seems perfect and seems like perfect evidence for all of it. But, when closely examined, it's flawed.

Going for this as a permanent state of being is just a wrong choice. Please be careful.
Jason L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Simon L:
Simon L:
I am going to quit my AF practice. After studying, applying and experiencing it, I have found many places in which Richard is wrong and I can see how he got to those points through experiencing moments of his type of freedom.

I had a great time here though.

Be well folks!


A few weeks later and still shaking off the AF practice. Keep having these PCE's, hope they will go.

I'm really concerned. I think that AF is a path into insanity.

If you're at the end of your ropes and want to escape misery, it might sound good, but it's not worth it.

The foundation this is based on, the perfectness, or even the evidence Richard found in the PCE is a flawed foundation. In the PCE you are in an experience that, at that moment, seems perfect and seems like perfect evidence for all of it. But, when closely examined, it's flawed.

Going for this as a permanent state of being is just a wrong choice. Please be careful.


It's wrong, insanity, not worth it, and flawed. But in what way? If you give these details, then maybe there is something to think about.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Jason L:
Simon L:
Simon L:
I am going to quit my AF practice. After studying, applying and experiencing it, I have found many places in which Richard is wrong and I can see how he got to those points through experiencing moments of his type of freedom.

I had a great time here though.

Be well folks!


A few weeks later and still shaking off the AF practice. Keep having these PCE's, hope they will go.

I'm really concerned. I think that AF is a path into insanity.

If you're at the end of your ropes and want to escape misery, it might sound good, but it's not worth it.

The foundation this is based on, the perfectness, or even the evidence Richard found in the PCE is a flawed foundation. In the PCE you are in an experience that, at that moment, seems perfect and seems like perfect evidence for all of it. But, when closely examined, it's flawed.

Going for this as a permanent state of being is just a wrong choice. Please be careful.


It's wrong, insanity, not worth it, and flawed. But in what way? If you give these details, then maybe there is something to think about.


Well, the basis of the idea of AF being the best end goal is the evidence of that found in a PCE. So I challenged that. I find a healthy dose of skepticism very useful.

So I was having PCE's. And, unexamined, that state does seem like the way out, the best state to be in. It does seem perfect.

But then, examined, it's obvious that is truly flawed. It's evident once one begins to imagine being in that state and the perceptions it generates that something is really off about. Like being in a delusion all the time, with no clear perceptions of reality.

Yes, reality is perceived directly, but many things are deleted. Flawed conclusions are drawn and once ability to discriminate accurately is destroyed.

It is, in my opinion, a mentally ill state of mind if one lives in it constantly.

The instinctual passions and affective feelings/emotions are very much necessary, desirable and good. The only problem, and the root of all human suffering and malice, are the presence of the harmful and painful emotions/feelings/thoughts and anything in a person's functioning that makes one suffer and do harm.

Taking away the whole entity is like shattering the whole window, instead of simply cleaning it.

A person who is free from problematic elements will be happy and harmless, normally functioning as a person.
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Hi Simon,

Can you please describe in minute detail what those PCEs you said you experienced were like, phenomenologically. What was present, was was absent, what qualities were obvious, what was beneficial about it, what was detrimental about it in hindsight. Let's see if they were PCEs or something else.

Nick
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Hi Simon,

Can you please describe in minute detail what those PCEs you said you experienced were like, phenomenologically. What was present, was was absent, what qualities were obvious, what was beneficial about it, what was detrimental about it in hindsight. Let's see if they were PCEs or something else.

Nick


Hi, thanks for your response. Aside from everything, I do like the open attitude of the people on here. I'm not attacking, but I know that on some boards my posts would have been seen as such.

I'm concerned and want to voice my concern. I am open to a dialogue about that and the people responding to my concerns have been very nice.

And, as always, I still have an open mind and am willing to be (proven) wrong.

Anyway, about the PCE's.

The experience was a direct recognition of the world around me, purely as it being there, and only my senses perceiving it. The only thing that existed was that. Not someone experiencing it at all, just a beautiful experience of seeing things in actuality.

Btw, I do find this a useful and wonderful experience to add to one's understanding and personal growth. For that I am grateful. I just don't think that living in that experience permanently, the entity being gone permanently is a good thing.

On those moments of actuality, there was a clear understanding, insight and experience of the actual world. It was a stunning insight, which I do find hard to put into words. Just purely perceiving reality as it is.
Nad A., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Simon L:

Yes, reality is perceived directly, but many things are deleted. Flawed conclusions are drawn and once ability to discriminate accurately is destroyed.


Can you give 2/3 examples of the flawed conclusions you mean?
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Nad A.:
Simon L:

Yes, reality is perceived directly, but many things are deleted. Flawed conclusions are drawn and once ability to discriminate accurately is destroyed.


Can you give 2/3 examples of the flawed conclusions you mean?


1. That the entity inhabiting this body is the root cause of all human suffering and wrongdoing, while only the problematic parts of it are.

2. That loving someone is in a way claiming a need for them. That feelings of lust for another means selfishly desiring them. Those type of things. Love can be without claiming. Wanting to have sex with someone can be experienced in a context of total selflessness, appreciation for the other without need, and to be able to accept that they may not return the feelings.

Again, in a human being, stripped from problems, this is a very natural thing.

3. That there can't be anything else but this physical universe. No God (I'm not saying I believe, but don't disbelieve it either. I see the existence of a God as probable though. But without proof, no conclusion...), not anything. The PCE does not solve that question. It seems true when you are in a PCE, but when you come out of it and look at it logically, one can see how the PCE fools one into that conclusion. It's because the part of the mind that can see that is shut down.
Nad A., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Simon L:
Nad A.:

Can you give 2/3 examples of the flawed conclusions you mean?


1. That the entity inhabiting this body is the root cause of all human suffering and wrongdoing, while only the problematic parts of it are.


Well, if the entity is illusory anyway then personally I don't care much about keeping the 'good' parts.

2. That loving someone is in a way claiming a need for them. That feelings of lust for another means selfishly desiring them. Those type of things. Love can be without claiming. Wanting to have sex with someone can be experienced in a context of total selflessness, appreciation for the other without need, and to be able to accept that they may not return the feelings.

Again, in a human being, stripped from problems, this is a very natural thing.


Can't comment on love much, not experienced there. From my limited knowledge I agree with the actualist view of it. Whether or not it's selfish, it's still just a feeling, there's nothing sacred about it.

3. That there can't be anything else but this physical universe. No God (I'm not saying I believe, but don't disbelieve it either. I see the existence of a God as probable though. But without proof, no conclusion...), not anything. The PCE does not solve that question. It seems true when you are in a PCE, but when you come out of it and look at it logically, one can see how the PCE fools one into that conclusion. It's because the part of the mind that can see that is shut down.


This is ironically the one I share your concern about. Obviously not the god stuff but the idea that with the absence of imagination, we may lose a vital tool for understanding the universe. Our brains evolved mainly to understand the simple mid-size stuff, so newtonian physics is a breeze, but when it comes to understanding the very large and the very small, we may need to leave behind our naive and simple view of the world.

What a surprise then that relativity and quantum theory are things that Richard attacks on the AF site.

I await the reports of an actually free scientist. It's a shame that so many are coming at actualism from a spiritual background, rather than a materialistic one.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Nad A.:
Simon L:
Nad A.:

Can you give 2/3 examples of the flawed conclusions you mean?


1. That the entity inhabiting this body is the root cause of all human suffering and wrongdoing, while only the problematic parts of it are.


Well, if the entity is illusory anyway then personally I don't care much about keeping the 'good' parts.


This is a misunderstanding. The idea that there is a separate self is the illusion. Not going into that here, it's a discussion for a different part of this board.

But the feelings, thoughts, ideas, etc. are in fact real and not illusory. They do exist and are good to have imo, just not the problematic parts.

Nad A.:
Simon L:
Nad A.:
2. That loving someone is in a way claiming a need for them. That feelings of lust for another means selfishly desiring them. Those type of things. Love can be without claiming. Wanting to have sex with someone can be experienced in a context of total selflessness, appreciation for the other without need, and to be able to accept that they may not return the feelings.

Again, in a human being, stripped from problems, this is a very natural thing.


Can't comment on love much, not experienced there. From my limited knowledge I agree with the actualist view of it. Whether or not it's selfish, it's still just a feeling, there's nothing sacred about it.


Some feelings are beautiful. Heck, someone is even free to consider some of the feelings they have as being sacred.

Nad A.:
Simon L:
Nad A.:
3. That there can't be anything else but this physical universe. No God (I'm not saying I believe, but don't disbelieve it either. I see the existence of a God as probable though. But without proof, no conclusion...), not anything. The PCE does not solve that question. It seems true when you are in a PCE, but when you come out of it and look at it logically, one can see how the PCE fools one into that conclusion. It's because the part of the mind that can see that is shut down.


This is ironically the one I share your concern about. Obviously not the god stuff but the idea that with the absence of imagination, we may lose a vital tool for understanding the universe. Our brains evolved mainly to understand the simple mid-size stuff, so newtonian physics is a breeze, but when it comes to understanding the very large and the very small, we may need to leave behind our naive and simple view of the world.


What a surprise then that relativity and quantum theory are things that Richard attacks on the AF site.

I await the reports of an actually free scientist. It's a shame that so many are coming at actualism from a spiritual background, rather than a materialistic one.


I agree.

Btw, am I the only one who spends more time on getting these quotes right than on writing? emoticon
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Simon L:
Well, the basis of the idea of AF being the best end goal is the evidence of that found in a PCE. So I challenged that. I find a healthy dose of skepticism very useful.


The PCE isn't quite the same, although similar, to AF.

So I was having PCE's. And, unexamined, that state does seem like the way out, the best state to be in. It does seem perfect.


EEs(excellent experiences) and some jhanic states also can seem 'perfect'.

But then, examined, it's obvious that is truly flawed. It's evident once one begins to imagine being in that state and the perceptions it generates that something is really off about. Like being in a delusion all the time, with no clear perceptions of reality.


How did you examine them? What is a 'flaw' in the context of being in PCE mode? I function better than pre-af as a human being in all avenues of life.

Yes, reality is perceived directly, but many things are deleted. Flawed conclusions are drawn and once ability to discriminate accurately is destroyed.


What was deleted was the unnecessary veil of ignorance, attachment to being/existing as an illusory 'me' (which resulted in said sense of being/existing vanishing) and any affectively filtered judgement. All the same thing. What is a 'flawed conclusion' in this context?

It is, in my opinion, a mentally ill state of mind if one lives in it constantly.


My wife is a trained psychologist. She doesn't know all the details of my last shift (af), but she has expressed how much better our relationship has become since this happened. She does think I can be a bit goofy but she has never said I am 'mentally ill'.

The instinctual passions and affective feelings/emotions are very much necessary, desirable and good. The only problem, and the root of all human suffering and malice, are the presence of the harmful and painful emotions/feelings/thoughts and anything in a person's functioning that makes one suffer and do harm.


If they are necessary and desirable and good for you then so be it. Follow that train of thought till it reaps all the happiness it can. There are affective feelings which are very beneficial for a sense of wellbeing. Ultimately though they are quite quite impermanent. But if you can live with that, so be it. The root of all suffering is craving and aversion, which results in the flow of becoming/being IMO. From craving and aversion there is sensual desire and ill will. These vanish at af never to return.

Taking away the whole entity is like shattering the whole window, instead of simply cleaning it.


One can spend a lifetime refining the flow of becoming/being till it seems like a sweet flowing song, yet there will always be the flow of becoming/being, refined or not and the potential to manifest as the 5 hinderances will push and pull the mind here and there. Never resting. Even an affective sublime abode is just more becoming/being. This being the dharmaoverground, a bit of the Buddha's wisdom might be appropriate.


"Then again, the disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable; perceptions of the dimension of nothingness: all are perceptions. Where they cease without remainder: that is peaceful, that is exquisite, i.e., the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception now or else is committed to discernment. With the break-up of the body, after death, it's possible that this leading-on consciousness of his will go to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is declared to be the practice conducive to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

When this was said, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One: "There is the case, lord, where a monk, having practiced in this way — 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. Now, would this monk be totally unbound, or not?"

"A certain such monk might, Ananda, and another might not.'

"What is the cause, what is the reason, whereby one might and another might not?"

"There is the case, Ananda, where a monk, having practiced in this way — (thinking) 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. He relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it. As he relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it, his consciousness is dependent on it, is sustained by it (clings to it). With clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is not totally unbound."

"Being sustained, where is that monk sustained?"

"The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception."

"Then, indeed, being sustained, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance."

"Being sustained, Ananda, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance; for this — the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — is the supreme sustenance. There is [however] the case where a monk, having practiced in this way — 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. He does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As he does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it, his consciousness is not dependent on it, is not sustained by it (does not cling to it). Without clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.106.than.html


A person who is free from problematic elements will be happy and harmless, normally functioning as a person.


To a degree yes, but always with the latent seed to possibly sprout up, grow, give root and give one delicious salivating juicy fruit or horribly crappy, malice and sorrowful bitter fruit sooner or later. Can't have one without the other eventually poking it's head up in my experience and opinion.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Simon L:
Well, the basis of the idea of AF being the best end goal is the evidence of that found in a PCE. So I challenged that. I find a healthy dose of skepticism very useful.


The PCE isn't quite the same, although similar, to AF.

So I was having PCE's. And, unexamined, that state does seem like the way out, the best state to be in. It does seem perfect.


EEs(excellent experiences) and some jhanic states also can seem 'perfect'.

But then, examined, it's obvious that is truly flawed. It's evident once one begins to imagine being in that state and the perceptions it generates that something is really off about. Like being in a delusion all the time, with no clear perceptions of reality.


How did you examine them? What is a 'flaw' in the context of being in PCE mode? I function better than pre-af as a human being in all avenues of life.

Yes, reality is perceived directly, but many things are deleted. Flawed conclusions are drawn and once ability to discriminate accurately is destroyed.


What was deleted was the unnecessary veil of ignorance, attachment to being/existing as an illusory 'me' (which resulted in said sense of being/existing vanishing) and any affectively filtered judgement. All the same thing. What is a 'flawed conclusion' in this context?

It is, in my opinion, a mentally ill state of mind if one lives in it constantly.


My wife is a trained psychologist. She doesn't know all the details of my last shift (af), but she has expressed how much better our relationship has become since this happened. She does think I can be a bit goofy but she has never said I am 'mentally ill'.

The instinctual passions and affective feelings/emotions are very much necessary, desirable and good. The only problem, and the root of all human suffering and malice, are the presence of the harmful and painful emotions/feelings/thoughts and anything in a person's functioning that makes one suffer and do harm.


If they are necessary and desirable and good for you then so be it. Follow that train of thought till it reaps all the happiness it can. There are affective feelings which are very beneficial for a sense of wellbeing. Ultimately though they are quite quite impermanent. But if you can live with that, so be it. The root of all suffering is craving and aversion, which results in the flow of becoming/being IMO. From craving and aversion there is sensual desire and ill will. These vanish at af never to return.

Taking away the whole entity is like shattering the whole window, instead of simply cleaning it.


One can spend a lifetime refining the flow of becoming/being till it seems like a sweet flowing song, yet there will always be the flow of becoming/being, refined or not and the potential to manifest as the 5 hinderances will push and pull the mind here and there. Never resting. Even an affective sublime abode is just more becoming/being. This being the dharmaoverground, a bit of the Buddha's wisdom might be appropriate.


"Then again, the disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable; perceptions of the dimension of nothingness: all are perceptions. Where they cease without remainder: that is peaceful, that is exquisite, i.e., the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception now or else is committed to discernment. With the break-up of the body, after death, it's possible that this leading-on consciousness of his will go to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is declared to be the practice conducive to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

When this was said, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One: "There is the case, lord, where a monk, having practiced in this way — 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. Now, would this monk be totally unbound, or not?"

"A certain such monk might, Ananda, and another might not.'

"What is the cause, what is the reason, whereby one might and another might not?"

"There is the case, Ananda, where a monk, having practiced in this way — (thinking) 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. He relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it. As he relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it, his consciousness is dependent on it, is sustained by it (clings to it). With clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is not totally unbound."

"Being sustained, where is that monk sustained?"

"The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception."

"Then, indeed, being sustained, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance."

"Being sustained, Ananda, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance; for this — the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — is the supreme sustenance. There is [however] the case where a monk, having practiced in this way — 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. He does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As he does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it, his consciousness is not dependent on it, is not sustained by it (does not cling to it). Without clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.106.than.html


A person who is free from problematic elements will be happy and harmless, normally functioning as a person.


To a degree yes, but always with the latent seed to possibly sprout up, grow, give root and give one delicious salivating juicy fruit or horribly crappy, malice and sorrowful bitter fruit sooner or later. Can't have one without the other eventually poking it's head up in my experience and opinion.


I'm sorry, but I have very little time at the moment. Just wanted to quickly comment on the last part of your reply.

To be honest, it is once's own responsibility, as an adult human being, to be in control of their functioning. If something comes up, you reject it if it's not desirable. Humans have been trained by society to be victims, while it is quite possible to simply take control of one's functioning.

And btw, psychologist don't always see everything, believe me, I know. ;)
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Simon L:


To be honest, it is once's own responsibility, as an adult human being, to be in control of their functioning. If something comes up, you reject it if it's not desirable. Humans have been trained by society to be victims, while it is quite possible to simply take control of one's functioning.


I still experience preferences. The body still protects itself automatically. I burnt my hand on the stove, the body pulled my hand away without any 'me' there to get upset. This mind/body organism stopped to look for oncoming traffic before crossing the road. Intelligence was never 'me'. 'Me' was just a veil of affect that had nothing to do with intelligence and intention. This life is precious. There is no need to squander it by not caring for this mind and body. This lack of care for oneself does not happen post-af as far as I have seen (7 weeks). I do not understand your reasoning concerning how it relates to AF. Simon. Can you elaborate?
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Nikolai .:
Simon L:


To be honest, it is once's own responsibility, as an adult human being, to be in control of their functioning. If something comes up, you reject it if it's not desirable. Humans have been trained by society to be victims, while it is quite possible to simply take control of one's functioning.


I still experience preferences. The body still protects itself automatically. I burnt my hand on the stove, the body pulled my hand away without any 'me' there to get upset. This mind/body organism stopped to look for oncoming traffic before crossing the road. Intelligence was never 'me'. 'Me' was just a veil of affect that had nothing to do with intelligence and intention. This life is precious. There is no need to squander it by not caring for this mind and body. This lack of care for oneself does not happen post-af as far as I have seen (7 weeks). I do not understand your reasoning concerning how it relates to AF. Simon. Can you elaborate?


Can you look at this and say it's part of a magic fairytale?

http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/introduction/humancondition2.htm
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Simon L:
Nikolai .:
Simon L:


To be honest, it is once's own responsibility, as an adult human being, to be in control of their functioning. If something comes up, you reject it if it's not desirable. Humans have been trained by society to be victims, while it is quite possible to simply take control of one's functioning.


I still experience preferences. The body still protects itself automatically. I burnt my hand on the stove, the body pulled my hand away without any 'me' there to get upset. This mind/body organism stopped to look for oncoming traffic before crossing the road. Intelligence was never 'me'. 'Me' was just a veil of affect that had nothing to do with intelligence and intention. This life is precious. There is no need to squander it by not caring for this mind and body. This lack of care for oneself does not happen post-af as far as I have seen (7 weeks). I do not understand your reasoning concerning how it relates to AF. Simon. Can you elaborate?


Can you look at this and say it's part of a magic fairytale?

http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/introduction/humancondition2.htm


What is part of a magic fairy tale? I never called anything a magic fairy tale.

Disclaimer: I don't speak for Richard nor the AF trust website. The use of terms like 'magic fairy tale' are their own interpretations .
Adam Bieber, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 112 Join Date: 5/22/10 Recent Posts
Hey Nikolai,

So you achieved AF? I thought we talked about you getting a PCE just a few weeks ago, being thinned out, but not reaching AF. What was your af moment like?

Also, can you describe your felicitous "state?" How is wonder, delight, curiosity operating? Are you fully attentive without internal "dreams"
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Adam Bieber:
Hey Nikolai,

So you achieved AF? I thought we talked about you getting a PCE just a few weeks ago, being thinned out, but not reaching AF. What was your af moment like?

Also, can you describe your felicitous "state?" How is wonder, delight, curiosity operating? Are you fully attentive without internal "dreams"


Hi Adam,

Thank you for participating in this thread.

What is your current status? Just curious. Your comment has a lot of weight when you state that Nikolai has had a PCE a few weeks ago, being thinned out, but not reaching AF. I wonder if this Nikolai dude is someone who I should listen to or has any kind of authority.

His remarks mean nothing if he hasn't reached the proper level of attainment.

Nikolai, are you just pretending to be "there" and are protecting AF based on ignorance. In that case I have no interest in your comments at all. A liar is what you would be, claiming your attainments. A noob you would be in your responses.
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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
I wonder if this Nikolai dude is someone who I should listen to or has any kind of authority.

His remarks mean nothing if he hasn't reached the proper level of attainment.

Nikolai, are you just pretending to be "there" and are protecting AF based on ignorance. In that case I have no interest in your comments at all. A liar is what you would be, claiming your attainments. A noob you would be in your responses.

Having actually spoken to Nikolai, and having known him for quite some time prior to his recent 'attainment', I can confirm that he is AF and has also had this confirmed by others who have 'done it'. Also, based on having used the techniques he has openly discussed and described, and also having direct experience of the results of these practices, I can confirm that he knows what he's talking about.

Simon, I thought exactly the same as you do a few months ago and considered AF the biggest pile of delusion shite on the planet. No one's going to convince you, no one's going to prove to you that your beliefs are not true so I'm not going to waste time trying to do so. The only thing I can recommend is doing the practice sincerely and giving it a fair chance.
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Adam Bieber:
Hey Nikolai,

So you achieved AF?


Yes. It matches what others have talked of. There is no sense of 'being', no affect like before.

I thought we talked about you getting a PCE just a few weeks ago, being thinned out, but not reaching AF. What was your af moment like?


I can't recall this conversation. Did it happen in the last 7 weeks? I wasn't openly talking about it before so may have just stated what I experienced. Link?

Also, can you describe your felicitous "state?" How is wonder, delight, curiosity operating? Are you fully attentive without internal "dreams"


There is no 'felicitous state'. There are no more mental states arising like before. I lost the ability to call up an affective felicitous state or any affective state 7 weeks ago in the last shift.

As I did not really get involved in the AF culture and it's use of terminology, I may explain it differently. There is an inherent appreciation of the continuous endless mind moments arising and passing apperceptively perceived. There is nothing to arise and 'get bored'. Curiosity still operates just find and would seem to be that same inherent appreciation of the moment of contact of sense object with its corresponding sense door. There is no affective wonder, but there is the mentioned inherent appreciation which could be called 'wonder'. There is so much to appreciate in any given moment. There is preference for pleasant sensations over unpleasant still. This is apperceived, but the tendency of the mind is to go towards the pleasant. Delight results. I am investigating this and seeing why there still is preference like so.

What is an 'internal dream' exactly? I do not have an affective 'inner world' arising. Mental images are experienced very differently now, and in the last few weeks there has been a serious lack of them. In the first few weeks there were split second arisings of undecipherable images which were impossible to keep flowing. They would arise and dissapear in an instant. If you say 'pink elephant', there is a wispy movement in the mind but nothing that could be called a mental image of a 'pink elephant'. I have had dreams but they are so split second lasting I am not sure how to describe them.

Nick
Adam Bieber, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 112 Join Date: 5/22/10 Recent Posts
Nikolai,

so its an endless appreciation and fascination at the sense doors that results in delight? There is no affective state of happiness but a delight manifesting from apperception? and at the same time, no possible affective suffering.

Simon,

I don't know how to describe my experience really right now. Its kind of like I am completely emptied of images but sometimes I get lost in a mental story of craving about women, or ambition. Sometimes despair settles itself as a feeling within me and it doesn't feel good.

When "I" am pure intent (which I have to remind myself to be ), "I" have a full attention on this moment and sensuousness. My body has a light tone of felicity. I often crave and wonder if things could get more enjoyable and other times I am completely satisfied with how enjoyable delighting in the senses are (when I really sink into to sensuous delight and curiosity). Also, cringing negative affect (fear, desire, aggression, nurture) arises in my gut (or random location) every so often. I think that progressing would be keeping a full attention while causing it so that I am fully satisfied in delighting the senses.

What I think is going to work for me now, is asking myself "How is this paradise", How is this moment paradise. I am looking for the paradise of senses and trying to stay there/here. This is never-ending delight and "feel" good sense like the magic of watching a landscape or delighting in the touch of cool air.

I think that enjoyable senses can be endless with advanced attentiveness (this full attention includes sensuousness) and naiveté (which probably includes, appreciation, wonder and felicity).
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Adam Bieber:
Nikolai,

so its an endless appreciation and fascination at the sense doors that results in delight? There is no affective state of happiness but a delight manifesting from apperception? and at the same time, no possible affective suffering.


Hi Adam,

Yes. You could explain it like so. It is not an affective delight so I am not so sure it can be imagined unless one has experienced a PCE that has lasted long enough to be able to see the difference. Yes, there is no affective happiness but an ongoing positive affectless experience of endless mind moments one after the other, all new, all interesting to experience. There is a stillness to experience as well regardless of what sense object has hit its corresponding sense door, at least in my current ongoing experience. It seems born from the serious lack of push and pull of mind states which filtered and dulled perception before the last shift. That push/pull is now absent. 'Underneath' it lies a stillness which is pretty still. And yes, there is no affective suffering like before.

Nick

Edit: Hi Simon, no, I am not pretending. What would the purpose be? I do not have any authority over your or anyone else's decisions, means of thinking nor views taken on board and adhered to. Ignore my posts if so inclined.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Simon L:
Nikolai .:
Simon L:


To be honest, it is once's own responsibility, as an adult human being, to be in control of their functioning. If something comes up, you reject it if it's not desirable. Humans have been trained by society to be victims, while it is quite possible to simply take control of one's functioning.


I still experience preferences. The body still protects itself automatically. I burnt my hand on the stove, the body pulled my hand away without any 'me' there to get upset. This mind/body organism stopped to look for oncoming traffic before crossing the road. Intelligence was never 'me'. 'Me' was just a veil of affect that had nothing to do with intelligence and intention. This life is precious. There is no need to squander it by not caring for this mind and body. This lack of care for oneself does not happen post-af as far as I have seen (7 weeks). I do not understand your reasoning concerning how it relates to AF. Simon. Can you elaborate?


Can you look at this and say it's part of a magic fairytale?

http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/introduction/humancondition2.htm


What is part of a magic fairy tale? I never called anything a magic fairy tale.

Disclaimer: I don't speak for Richard nor the AF trust website. The use of terms like 'magic fairy tale' are their own interpretations .


Ok, fair enough.

Since AF is about being HAPPY and harmless all the time, would you say you are happy looking at pictures of the holocaust?

Is there a difference between the way you and Richard see things?

And, are you truly AF, since your statements do no reflect those of others who have been confirmed AF.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Simon L:
Nikolai .:
Simon L:
Nikolai .:
Simon L:


To be honest, it is once's own responsibility, as an adult human being, to be in control of their functioning. If something comes up, you reject it if it's not desirable. Humans have been trained by society to be victims, while it is quite possible to simply take control of one's functioning.


I still experience preferences. The body still protects itself automatically. I burnt my hand on the stove, the body pulled my hand away without any 'me' there to get upset. This mind/body organism stopped to look for oncoming traffic before crossing the road. Intelligence was never 'me'. 'Me' was just a veil of affect that had nothing to do with intelligence and intention. This life is precious. There is no need to squander it by not caring for this mind and body. This lack of care for oneself does not happen post-af as far as I have seen (7 weeks). I do not understand your reasoning concerning how it relates to AF. Simon. Can you elaborate?


Can you look at this and say it's part of a magic fairytale?

http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/introduction/humancondition2.htm


What is part of a magic fairy tale? I never called anything a magic fairy tale.

Disclaimer: I don't speak for Richard nor the AF trust website. The use of terms like 'magic fairy tale' are their own interpretations .


Ok, fair enough.

Since AF is about being HAPPY and harmless all the time, would you say you are happy looking at pictures of the holocaust?

Is there a difference between the way you and Richard see things?

And, are you truly AF, since your statements do no reflect those of others who have been confirmed AF.


I'm going to bed right now, but I would like to draw the attention on something that tends to get ignored on here. It's in my question above, and I would like to pose this question to Nikolai again, or anyone else having achieved AF:

"Since AF is about being HAPPY and harmless all the time, would you say you are happy looking at pictures of the holocaust?"

This is where, in my opinion, the big delusion of AF lies. Or at least one of them.

Look at this:

http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/introduction/humancondition2.htm

And answer my question,

"Since AF is about being HAPPY and harmless all the time, would you say you are happy looking at pictures of the holocaust?"
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
Simon L:


I'm going to bed right now, but I would like to draw the attention on something that tends to get ignored on here. It's in my question above, and I would like to pose this question to Nikolai again, or anyone else having achieved AF:

"Since AF is about being HAPPY and harmless all the time, would you say you are happy looking at pictures of the holocaust?"

This is where, in my opinion, the big delusion of AF lies. Or at least one of them.

Look at this:

http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/introduction/humancondition2.htm

And answer my question,

"Since AF is about being HAPPY and harmless all the time, would you say you are happy looking at pictures of the holocaust?"


Upatissa Sutta.

At Savatthi. There Ven. Sariputta addressed the monks: "Friends!"

"Yes, friend," the monks responded.

Ven. Sariputta said, "Friends, just now as I was withdrawn in seclusion, this train of thought arose to my awareness: 'Is there anything in the world with whose change or alteration there would arise within me sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'There is nothing in the world with whose change or alteration there would arise within me sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair.'"

When this was said, Ven. Ananda said to Ven. Sariputta, "Sariputta my friend, even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher would there arise within you no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair?"

"Even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher, my friend, there would arise within me no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Still, I would have this thought: 'What a great being, of great might, of great prowess, has disappeared! For if the Blessed One were to remain for a long time, that would be for the benefit of many people, for the happiness of many people, out of sympathy for the world; for the welfare, benefit, & happiness of human & divine beings.'"

"Surely," [said Ven. Ananda,] "it's because Ven. Sariputta's I-making & mine-making and obsessions with conceit have long been well uprooted that even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher, there would arise within him no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair."
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Simon L:

"Since AF is about being HAPPY and harmless all the time, would you say you are happy looking at pictures of the holocaust?"


Hi Simon,

As far as I understood it, the happy and harmless angle of the af route to the end of being/becoming was/is a tool, a means to an end, a means to get actually free of malice and sorrow. Once af, the default mode is one of an affectless stillness which is quite a positive and much more superior mode of living than any highly refined affective happiness or wellbeing I had experienced before. There is an inherent virtue to this stillness. There is no feeling arising to be of harm to anyone. No feelings of spite nor hatred for anything nor anyone.

I do see cause and effect in action in my current day to day actions. When someone is within my vicinity and is obviously seen to need help, there is an automatic recognition of this need by this mind/body organism. There is often an instant movement and intention to help those people in the situation they find themselves as much as I can given the circumstances. There is no feelings arising of getting something in return, nor wanting to feel good because of the helpful action. There is no affective compassion fueling the intention. There is just an instant recognition of a fellow human being in need. It's like I see my shoelace untied and ownerless hands reach down and tie them up automatically. There is no thought of "What will i get from this?" It's just an inherent caring and recognition of other beings situations and predicaments.

I do not experience any affective states of happiness. So when I see the photos you showed me, there is no affective state arising. Not one of disgust nor one of happiness. However, there is a recognition and thoughts that do arise though, and probably from past conditioning, that they are not ideal situations for the humans within them. But as they are photos on a screen, the impulse is to just recognize the unpleasant predicament of those beings in the photos and that is about it for the current moment. I cannot do anything to help anyone in those pictures as they are pictures.

Now if this mind/body organism found itself in a real life situation where such atrocities where occurring right in front of me, perhaps I would tell another story. But since I have not experienced such atrocities in real life nor been witness to any, I cannot say exactly what my actions would be. Perhaps they would be conditioned by the possibilities that presented themselves to the mind in the given moment. I think it is safe to say that perhaps there would be a movement to help as far and as much as one can given the circumstances.

But it's all speculation at the moment, based on situations I have experienced in the past 7 weeks which bare little resemblance to the situations of the photos. Such as when my wife hurt herself while in the bathroom and gave a high pitched scream of pain, and this body just lept out of bed in an instant without any sense of agency nor affective urgency and rushed to her aid. In hindsight it was quite curious to think about. There was no affective nudge to help, just a recognition that someone (my wife) was in need within my vicinity and this mind/body organism did what it could to help.

It should be said that there is an inherent appreciation, inherent good will, inherent virtue, and inherent recognition of others and their predicaments in this default mode. It cannot be imagined as it is all affectless. That is as far as I can explain it and would advise anyone in doubt to perhaps trigger a full blown long lasting PCE and then go walkabout where there are people in need. See what happens.

Disclaimer: Personality-wise and perhaps communication-wise, I am perhaps not like Richard, nor Tarin, nor Trent, nor any other AFer. I may perhaps explain things my own way due to my own idiosyncratic personality traits and past conditioning. The way I went about aiming for and moving towards af was not exactly the same as Richard instructs. It was not a purely actualist route I took, so the way I explain things may not gel with those adhering to a strictly actualist take on the path to the end of being. Please ignore my posts if they cause you doubt, confusion or concern.

Nick
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Simon L:

"Since AF is about being HAPPY and harmless all the time, would you say you are happy looking at pictures of the holocaust?"


Hi Simon,

As far as I understood it, the happy and harmless angle of the af route to the end of being/becoming was/is a tool, a means to an end, a means to get actually free of malice and sorrow. Once af, the default mode is one of an affectless stillness which is quite a positive and much more superior mode of living than any highly refined affective happiness or wellbeing I had experienced before. There is an inherent virtue to this stillness. There is no feeling arising to be of harm to anyone. No feelings of spite nor hatred for anything nor anyone.

I do see cause and effect in action in my current day to day actions. When someone is within my vicinity and is obviously seen to need help, there is an automatic recognition of this need by this mind/body organism. There is often an instant movement and intention to help those people in the situation they find themselves as much as I can given the circumstances. There is no feelings arising of getting something in return, nor wanting to feel good because of the helpful action. There is no affective compassion fueling the intention. There is just an instant recognition of a fellow human being in need. It's like I see my shoelace untied and ownerless hands reach down and tie them up automatically. There is no thought of "What will i get from this?" It's just an inherent caring and recognition of other beings situations and predicaments.

I do not experience any affective states of happiness. So when I see the photos you showed me, there is no affective state arising. Not one of disgust nor one of happiness. However, there is a recognition and thoughts that do arise though, and probably from past conditioning, that they are not ideal situations for the humans within them. But as they are photos on a screen, the impulse is to just recognize the unpleasant predicament of those beings in the photos and that is about it for the current moment. I cannot do anything to help anyone in those pictures as they are pictures.

Now if this mind/body organism found itself in a real life situation where such atrocities where occurring right in front of me, perhaps I would tell another story. But since I have not experienced such atrocities in real life nor been witness to any, I cannot say exactly what my actions would be. Perhaps they would be conditioned by the possibilities that presented themselves to the mind in the given moment. I think it is safe to say that perhaps there would be a movement to help as far and as much as one can given the circumstances.

But it's all speculation at the moment, based on situations I have experienced in the past 7 weeks which bare little resemblance to the situations of the photos. Such as when my wife hurt herself while in the bathroom and gave a high pitched scream of pain, and this body just lept out of bed in an instant without any sense of agency nor affective urgency and rushed to her aid. In hindsight it was quite curious to think about. There was no affective nudge to help, just a recognition that someone (my wife) was in need within my vicinity and this mind/body organism did what it could to help.

It should be said that there is an inherent appreciation, inherent good will, inherent virtue, and inherent recognition of others and their predicaments in this default mode. It cannot be imagined as it is all affectless. That is as far as I can explain it and would advise anyone in doubt to perhaps trigger a full blown long lasting PCE and then go walkabout where there are people in need. See what happens.

Disclaimer: Personality-wise and perhaps communication-wise, I am perhaps not like Richard, nor Tarin, nor Trent, nor any other AFer. I may perhaps explain things my own way due to my own idiosyncratic personality traits and past conditioning. The way I went about aiming for and moving towards af was not exactly the same as Richard instructs. It was not a purely actualist route I took, so the way I explain things may not gel with those adhering to a strictly actualist take on the path to the end of being. Please ignore my posts if they cause you doubt, confusion or concern.

Nick


Hi Nick,

Actually, your input is highly appreciated. And there beings differences personality-wise and communication-wise to me is a good thing. One form of communication may be better suited to one type of person and another form may be better of another type of person.

I think that I'm beginning to understand. With regard to both the awful things in live, as well as the beautiful ones, there is neither a good or bad feeling. I get that. You remain unaffected emotionally.

There are a few questions I have though:

1. Richard describes being actually free is like living in a magical fairytale like world. I can see that is quite possible under normal circumstances. But if something awful happens right in front of you, someone getting brutally murdered right in front of you, how can you see that part of existence as being magical?

2. You use the word atrocities in your reply, and Richard uses it as well. So you do recognize on some level something being a bad thing. And my assumption is that you also see certain things as good. Maybe there are more distinctions you make.

Normally, a person makes those distinctions mostly through their feelings, which give rise to thoughts and opinions. How do you make those distinctions. If one is actually free, how do you make the distinctions between good and bad?
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Simon L:

Hi Nick,
Actually, your input is highly appreciated. And there beings differences personality-wise and communication-wise to me is a good thing. One form of communication may be better suited to one type of person and another form may be better of another type of person.


Not a problem.

I think that I'm beginning to understand. With regard to both the awful things in live, as well as the beautiful ones, there is neither a good or bad feeling. I get that. You remain unaffected emotionally.


Yes.

There are a few questions I have though:

1. Richard describes being actually free is like living in a magical fairytale like world. I can see that is quite possible under normal circumstances. But if something awful happens right in front of you, someone getting brutally murdered right in front of you, how can you see that part of existence as being magical?


The continuous apperceptive awareness and lack of any 'being' that manifests as boredom thus result in an ongoing awareness of the countless mind moments that arise and pass in an instant, sense objects hitting the sense doors non-stop and no tiring of such an experience. This is never boring and always interesting, and can be interpreted as and called a magic faery tale, as the idea of a 'magic faery tale' is alluring to many people. It is just a means to describe the lack of boredom and 'on the edge of your seat-ness'.

But there is something else that may point to why Richard uses this term. I have not read extensively the AF material, having approached the end of being via a more Buddhist route, so my interpretations of Richard's words may be wrong. As I have only 7 weeks on his many years of AF, it would be safe to say he has deepened to a degree where a 'magic faery tale' might be the case. I have had glimpses of something that could be explained like so, as had Vineeto of the AF trust right after getting AF. It is not an ongoing experience as of yet. But I can see this heading in that direction.

SUBSCRIBER NO. 19: Does universe is infinite a certainty now? And can you explain about how do you know it with so much certainty.

VINEETO: It has been a certainty for me for a long time, intellectually understood at first, that there can’t be a ‘something’ let alone a ‘nothing’ beyond the imagined borders of the universe and any such ideas were experientially confirmed in my PCEs as being nothing other than human imagination in operation. However, about a week ago, I clearly experienced this consciousness being without limits and the vast stillness of the infinite universe became fully apparent. I then experienced it as a fact that I am this infinite universe experiencing itself as a flesh-and-blood conscious human being. This experience occurred again today but is not yet an ongoing moment-to-moment experience. Richard reported that it took him several years to realize the full depth and purity of an actual freedom.
It’s still early days.
Cheers Vineetohttp://actualfreedom.com.au/directroute/19.htm#24Jan10



2. You use the word atrocities in your reply, and Richard uses it as well. So you do recognize on some level something being a bad thing. And my assumption is that you also see certain things as good. Maybe there are more distinctions you make.


Of course I do. Like a said, there is an inherent virtue. I was asked this by another AFer: If I was asked on the street to break the legs of a street bum lying on a park bench for a million dollars, would I do it? The street bum must have his legs broken though for me to receive the money. The answer is a clear 'No, I wouldn't'. One does not become some apathetic robot who does not understand that some actions can cause suffering to others. That is not the case, at least in my own experience.

Normally, a person makes those distinctions mostly through their feelings, which give rise to thoughts and opinions. How do you make those distinctions. If one is actually free, how do you make the distinctions between good and bad?


Normally, a feeling being feels and very rarely experiences the mind/body organism without affective feelings (PCE) and thus comes to the conclusion that every action must have a feeling behind it in order for it to occur. This is part of the illusion of 'me'. Intelligence, intention, will, are not 'I'. When the veil of 'me' has gone, that becomes quite obvious. One does not need 'feelings' to know whether an action may cause suffering to others or not.

If you have a full blown PCE that has some stability to it, and lasts long enough for one to investigate what one can and cannot do in that mode, one will find all those answers for yourself. Good=not suffering, bad=suffering. Any action that leads to the suffering of others, when that action is known to hurt others, is bad. Any action that leads to the relief or cessation of suffering in others is good. It's pretty simple.

Nick
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Simon L:

Hi Nick,
Actually, your input is highly appreciated. And there beings differences personality-wise and communication-wise to me is a good thing. One form of communication may be better suited to one type of person and another form may be better of another type of person.


Not a problem.

I think that I'm beginning to understand. With regard to both the awful things in live, as well as the beautiful ones, there is neither a good or bad feeling. I get that. You remain unaffected emotionally.


Yes.

There are a few questions I have though:

1. Richard describes being actually free is like living in a magical fairytale like world. I can see that is quite possible under normal circumstances. But if something awful happens right in front of you, someone getting brutally murdered right in front of you, how can you see that part of existence as being magical?


The continuous apperceptive awareness and lack of any 'being' that manifests as boredom thus result in an ongoing awareness of the countless mind moments that arise and pass in an instant, sense objects hitting the sense doors non-stop and no tiring of such an experience. This is never boring and always interesting, and can be interpreted as and called a magic faery tale, as the idea of a 'magic faery tale' is alluring to many people. It is just a means to describe the lack of boredom and 'on the edge of your seat-ness'.

But there is something else that may point to why Richard uses this term. I have not read extensively the AF material, having approached the end of being via a more Buddhist route, so my interpretations of Richard's words may be wrong. As I have only 7 weeks on his many years of AF, it would be safe to say he has deepened to a degree where a 'magic faery tale' might be the case. I have had glimpses of something that could be explained like so, as had Vineeto of the AF trust right after getting AF. It is not an ongoing experience as of yet. But I can see this heading in that direction.

SUBSCRIBER NO. 19: Does universe is infinite a certainty now? And can you explain about how do you know it with so much certainty.

VINEETO: It has been a certainty for me for a long time, intellectually understood at first, that there can’t be a ‘something’ let alone a ‘nothing’ beyond the imagined borders of the universe and any such ideas were experientially confirmed in my PCEs as being nothing other than human imagination in operation. However, about a week ago, I clearly experienced this consciousness being without limits and the vast stillness of the infinite universe became fully apparent. I then experienced it as a fact that I am this infinite universe experiencing itself as a flesh-and-blood conscious human being. This experience occurred again today but is not yet an ongoing moment-to-moment experience. Richard reported that it took him several years to realize the full depth and purity of an actual freedom.
It’s still early days.
Cheers Vineetohttp://actualfreedom.com.au/directroute/19.htm#24Jan10



2. You use the word atrocities in your reply, and Richard uses it as well. So you do recognize on some level something being a bad thing. And my assumption is that you also see certain things as good. Maybe there are more distinctions you make.


Of course I do. Like a said, there is an inherent virtue. I was asked this by another AFer: If I was asked on the street to break the legs of a street bum lying on a park bench for a million dollars, would I do it? The street bum must have his legs broken though for me to receive the money. The answer is a clear 'No, I wouldn't'. One does not become some apathetic robot who does not understand that some actions can cause suffering to others. That is not the case, at least in my own experience.

Normally, a person makes those distinctions mostly through their feelings, which give rise to thoughts and opinions. How do you make those distinctions. If one is actually free, how do you make the distinctions between good and bad?


Normally, a feeling being feels and very rarely experiences the mind/body organism without affective feelings (PCE) and thus comes to the conclusion that every action must have a feeling behind it in order for it to occur. This is part of the illusion of 'me'. Intelligence, intention, will, are not 'I'. When the veil of 'me' has gone, that becomes quite obvious. One does not need 'feelings' to know whether an action may cause suffering to others or not.

If you have a full blown PCE that has some stability to it, and lasts long enough for one to investigate what one can and cannot do in that mode, one will find all those answers for yourself. Good=not suffering, bad=suffering. Any action that leads to the suffering of others, when that action is known to hurt others, is bad. Any action that leads to the relief or cessation of suffering in others is good. It's pretty simple.

Nick


Hi Nick,

Thanks a lot man, it makes a lot more sense now.

Part of my hesitation to continue the AF practice came from a post from someone else who stated that in AF you don't make those distinctions anymore. That troubled me.

I cannot the entity being "me" being gone permanently though. I have achieved liberation, seeing through the illusion of self, but in that state, feelings and emotions are still there, there is just the recognition of there being noe self.

I wish I could get a "sample" so to speak, a certain period of AF from which you come back to see what it's all about. The idea of it being definitive is a problem for me. It might be ok, or it isn't. But I don't want to be stuck in something permanent without knowing up front what I will get myself into.

I see no evidence in the PCE's I guess. As long as I don't see that, I don't want to progress. Things have gotten too unclear already.

Perhaps this will help. Could you tell your story? How did you achieve AF, what is it like and how is it different from before?
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Hi Simon,

It's a long story of which one can read about here:

http://nickdowntherabbithole.blogspot.com/

Nick
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Nikolai .:
Hi Simon,

It's a long story of which one can read about here:

http://nickdowntherabbithole.blogspot.com/

Nick


Thanks Nick, I'll check it out.
ed c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Simon L:


I see no evidence in the PCE's I guess. As long as I don't see that, I don't want to progress. Things have gotten too unclear already.



Hi Simon -
Have you considered that what you are exeperiencing and labeling as "PCE's" are not PCE's? I ask this because it's been noted by many people who have become AF, including Nick, that full, solid, PCE's are very rare with 1,2 or at most 3 happening before an actual freedom. You seem to report having them weekly.

Please note, I'm not suggesting something isn't happening to you. PCE's are a confusing concept and given how vital they are to an Actual Freedom, it's worth investigating this possiblity a bit more. If it were me, I would be considering the odds that I seem to be experiencing PCE's at a rate vastly greater than those who actually became AF.

Take care,
Ed
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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ed c:
Simon L:


I see no evidence in the PCE's I guess. As long as I don't see that, I don't want to progress. Things have gotten too unclear already.



Hi Simon -
Have you considered that what you are exeperiencing and labeling as "PCE's" are not PCE's? I ask this because it's been noted by many people who have become AF, including Nick, that full, solid, PCE's are very rare with 1,2 or at most 3 happening before an actual freedom. You seem to report having them weekly.

Please note, I'm not suggesting something isn't happening to you. PCE's are a confusing concept and given how vital they are to an Actual Freedom, it's worth investigating this possiblity a bit more. If it were me, I would be considering the odds that I seem to be experiencing PCE's at a rate vastly greater than those who actually became AF.

Take care,
Ed


Hi Ed,

I've always had the tendency of going into experiences that I now know are called PCE's When I was younger, and was unaware of AF, I had them often. This is 12-15 years ago that it first started, before Richard talked about it. There wasn't even internet yet. emoticon

I know they are PCE's. I've read all the descriptions and they make sense since it's something I recognize. I exactly experience them as described and beyond the words there is an understanding of what it's like.

Since I started my practice, there came a place where I could trigger them at will.

I really know what they are like. I'm in one this very moment since I decided to do so. Yet, I see no evidence, no clear conclusions like the ones Richard and others have drawn.

Ok, had to shake it off. It's like Vineeto's insight on God, which is clearly flawed. In a PCE you can see this, but the part of your mind that can clearly see other options is shut down.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Simon L:
Ok, had to shake it off. It's like Vineeto's insight on God, which is clearly flawed. In a PCE you can see this, but the part of your mind that can clearly see other options is shut down.

can you describe this more? in my experience, in a PCE the mind is anything but prevented from seeing clearly.

do you realize that whether your mind thinks there is a God doesn't change whether there is actually a God? if you have a line of reasoning that results in the thought: "There might be a God," what happens if you look at that same line of reasoning from within what you're calling a PCE?
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Paul S., modified 9 Years ago.

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I think he means that Vineeto, Peter and Richard draws a lot of conclusions about the nature of reality based solely on their own experience. For example in AF there is no affect, does that mean affect no longer exist anywhere in the universe?
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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I'll come back later with more detailed replies, don't have much time now. But there is something that I would like to share that illustrates my point perfectly:

"7. When ‘I’ as ego and ‘me’ as soul psychologically and psychically self-immolate – which is the end of ‘being’ itself – then the answer to the ‘Mystery Of Life’ becomes evident as an on-going existential experiencing; I am this physical universe experiencing itself as a reflective, sensate human being; as me, the universe is intelligent (there is no anthropomorphic ‘Intelligence’ that is creating or running existence)."

http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/articles/aprecisofactualfreedom.htm

This quote from Richard is something that I simply cannot agree with. What I did see happening in my own experience is this:

I have a full blown PCE. In that experience it all makes sense, so it seems. Like it is so obvious that this is all there is.

This can be a clear realization that seems to make sense and when one comes out of the PCE, one can take this on as a true realization. If unexamined that is.

Examined, it does not pass the logic tests though.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Paul S.:
I think he means that Vineeto, Peter and Richard draws a lot of conclusions about the nature of reality based solely on their own experience. For example in AF there is no affect, does that mean affect no longer exist anywhere in the universe?


Affect would still exist in others.

The problem I have is that Richard states a lot of things as facts, claiming that the evidence for those facts lies in PCE's and being actually free. I cannot agree with those conclusions even though having had full PCE's.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Simon L:
Ok, had to shake it off. It's like Vineeto's insight on God, which is clearly flawed. In a PCE you can see this, but the part of your mind that can clearly see other options is shut down.

can you describe this more? in my experience, in a PCE the mind is anything but prevented from seeing clearly.

do you realize that whether your mind thinks there is a God doesn't change whether there is actually a God? if you have a line of reasoning that results in the thought: "There might be a God," what happens if you look at that same line of reasoning from within what you're calling a PCE?


In the PCE it seems like this existence is all there is and the idea of there being a God seems false. It seems obvious that this physical universe is all that exists.

But outside the PCE, one can create many viable ideas about how a God could exist. There is no proof for that, but it does not seem impossible.
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Simon L:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Simon L:
Ok, had to shake it off. It's like Vineeto's insight on God, which is clearly flawed. In a PCE you can see this, but the part of your mind that can clearly see other options is shut down.

can you describe this more? in my experience, in a PCE the mind is anything but prevented from seeing clearly.

do you realize that whether your mind thinks there is a God doesn't change whether there is actually a God? if you have a line of reasoning that results in the thought: "There might be a God," what happens if you look at that same line of reasoning from within what you're calling a PCE?


In the PCE it seems like this existence is all there is and the idea of there being a God seems false. It seems obvious that this physical universe is all that exists.

But outside the PCE, one can create many viable ideas about how a God could exist. There is no proof for that, but it does not seem impossible.


So go with what makes you happier, Simon. Do you want to be convinced? Or have you decided? If the latter, refine that chosen viewpoint and get happier.

Nick
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Nikolai .:
Simon L:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Simon L:
Ok, had to shake it off. It's like Vineeto's insight on God, which is clearly flawed. In a PCE you can see this, but the part of your mind that can clearly see other options is shut down.

can you describe this more? in my experience, in a PCE the mind is anything but prevented from seeing clearly.

do you realize that whether your mind thinks there is a God doesn't change whether there is actually a God? if you have a line of reasoning that results in the thought: "There might be a God," what happens if you look at that same line of reasoning from within what you're calling a PCE?


In the PCE it seems like this existence is all there is and the idea of there being a God seems false. It seems obvious that this physical universe is all that exists.

But outside the PCE, one can create many viable ideas about how a God could exist. There is no proof for that, but it does not seem impossible.


So go with what makes you happier, Simon. Do you want to be convinced? Or have you decided? If the latter, refine that chosen viewpoint and get happier.

Nick


I find it important to examine the message someone brings and to see if there are flaws in it. And if there are, they need to be discussed. I am not looking to be convinced, I am looking for a clear examination of the material at hand and drawing conclusion from that, without being emotionally invested.
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

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Simon L:


I find it important to examine the message someone brings and to see if there are flaws in it. And if there are, they need to be discussed. I am not looking to be convinced, I am looking for a clear examination of the material at hand and drawing conclusion from that, without being emotionally invested.


And is there any emotional investment in the loss of something if this path is to be followed? Exactly what is there concern for losing?
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Nikolai .:
Simon L:


I find it important to examine the message someone brings and to see if there are flaws in it. And if there are, they need to be discussed. I am not looking to be convinced, I am looking for a clear examination of the material at hand and drawing conclusion from that, without being emotionally invested.


And is there any emotional investment in the loss of something if this path is to be followed? Exactly what is there concern for losing?


Sure. If it does turn out that actual freedom is not the right end point, and it is irrevocable, then it would be a disaster.
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

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Please elaborate on exactly what you are afraid of losing. Exactly. In minute detail. You haven't done that yet. Please do.

Nick
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

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Nikolai .:
Please elaborate on exactly what you are afraid of losing. Exactly. In minute detail. You haven't done that yet. Please do.

Nick


Sanity. Honestly that's it. I am not trying to offend anyone, but at this point the basis of AF seems flawed and it seems like a one way ticket into insanity.
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

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What is sanity and insanity? Please give detailed answers to this question. Make a list.
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

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Nikolai .:
What is sanity and insanity? Please give detailed answers to this question. Make a list.


Sanity

- Accurate perceptions
- In touch with reality
- Having all one's functions properly functioning

Insanity

- Delusions/psychosis
- Functions impaired in their functioning
- Being out of touch with reality
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

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Simon L:

Sanity

- Accurate perceptions
- In touch with reality
- Having all one's functions properly functioning


This sound exactly like my current ongoing mode of living (af) if by 'reality' you mean actuality.

Insanity

- Delusions/psychosis
- Functions impaired in their functioning
- Being out of touch with reality


This sounds like how it was before af if by 'reality' you mean actuality. What is reality mean here, Simon?

Nick
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Nikolai .:
Simon L:

Sanity

- Accurate perceptions
- In touch with reality
- Having all one's functions properly functioning


This sound exactly like my current ongoing mode of living (af) if by 'reality' you mean actuality.

Insanity

- Delusions/psychosis
- Functions impaired in their functioning
- Being out of touch with reality


This sounds like how it was before af if by 'reality' you mean actuality. What is reality mean here, Simon?

Nick


Reality being the existing world.

Ok, I'm game. Keeping an open mind is one of the most important things I approach these type of things with. I am willing to be wrong.

One side note btw, psychosis is a whole other experience altogether, I cannot imagine that that would sound like the way it was before af.

But ok, now that you have read my posts and have an idea of my current perceptions, could you show me where and how I'm wrong? I would appreciate it.
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

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Hi Simon,

First of all, let's define the following terms so we are on the same page. How do you define the following terms? We'll discuss my take on it from there. Let's clear up any different ways of interpreting such things first.

According to your way of thinking (give examples to help convey what you mean)

What is/are

- Accurate perceptions
- In touch with reality
- Having all one's functions properly functioning

What is/are

- Delusions/psychosis
- Functions impaired in their functioning
- Being out of touch with reality

Nick
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Nikolai .:
Hi Simon,

First of all, let's define the following terms so we are on the same page. How do you define the following terms? We'll discuss my take on it from there. Let's clear up any different ways of interpreting such things first.

According to your way of thinking (give examples to help convey what you mean)

What is/are

- Accurate perceptions
- In touch with reality
- Having all one's functions properly functioning

What is/are

- Delusions/psychosis
- Functions impaired in their functioning
- Being out of touch with reality

Nick


Alright, cool.

- Accurate perceptions: seeing things for what they are. For example, a trashcan is a trashcan, not a car. Nor a portal into another dimension. More on this at the delusions part.
- In touch with reality: knowing what is going on around you.
- Functions: all the elements of one's being are undamaged. The whole system works so to speak.

- Delusions: believing things that aren't true. Like for example believing that everyone in the world is pure evil and out to get you.
- Psychosis: includes delusions. Also other things, like hearing voices, hallucinating.
- Functions impaired: being damaged in some way. Like a car with a flat tire. Functioning without all elements in place doing their job.
- Out of touch with reality: reality not getting through to you. Not being able to recognize things for what they are.
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

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Simon L:
- Accurate perceptions: seeing things for what they are. For example, a trashcan is a trashcan, not a car. Nor a portal into another dimension. More on this at the delusions part.


Ok. I agree. This is the case at af more so than before as there is no filter of affective judgement to warp the perception of anything. I see things perfectly for what they are. No warping of any kind involved.

- In touch with reality: knowing what is going on around you.


I now perfectly what is going on around me. More so than pre-af. My senses have heightened due to the lack of the dulling affect of the veil of affective judgement and the attention bounce which would often distort subtly the way I understood things. This is not the case anymore. Without that perceptually dulling attention bounce there is a heightened awareness of what is going on around me. My wife has benefited from this as I no longer filter what she says through affective judging, and have become more attentive to her needs because of it. Sight and sound have become much easier to pick out due to the lack of attention bounce. This means I am much more aware of what is happening around me. I do not experience mental images as I once did. There is thus no mental projection overlaying, warping and dilluting experience like before. I am very much in touch with actuality.

- Functions: all the elements of one's being are undamaged. The whole system works so to speak.


What is the whole system? intelligence, consciousness, memory, discernment, intention, motor function, controlling the faculties, attentiveness, physical sensations? If so none of these are 'I' nor 'mine'. When 'I' has been expunged, these are all seen to work perfectly well, even clearer than before. 'I' has nothing to do with these things. 'I', the flow of 'being', is an illusory veil of affect, of craving and aversion, that covers up this fact. The whole system works perfectly fine without 'me' there.

- Delusions: believing things that aren't true. Like for example believing that everyone in the world is pure evil and out to get you.


Like believing in a separate 'self'? That a flow of 'being' was the be all and end all? That one exists on some level other than this flesh blood body? Believing that feelings are not 'me'? Believing that the end of suffering was not possible? That affect had to flow to 'be a human being'? That all of this intelligence, consciousness, memory, discernment, intention, motor function, controlling the faculties, attentiveness, physical sensations, was 'I', 'me', 'mine'? THIS is delusional.

Beliefs are locked in thoughts loops that condition our 'reality'. The entanglement of views. 'I' am a belief. Delusion. Beliefs keep us locked on a route that for good or bad is conditioned by those thought loops. This was all true for me pre-af. Beliefs:

As far as I see it, 'I' was inherently delusional. Now that 'I' is no more, there is now a lack of that delusional mental projection and actuality is my guide. What is experienced in the actual world is tangibly true. I do not need to speculate, although that can arise as a thought. There is preference for actual tangible truth over 'belief' based on speculation and mental projection.

- Psychosis: includes delusions. Also other things, like hearing voices, hallucinating.


I have never heard voices nor hallucinated. I have not experienced psychosis. Not before af nor after it.

- Functions impaired: being damaged in some way. Like a car with a flat tire. Functioning without all elements in place doing their job.


What is a 'function'? If you are referring to the 'whole system' again, then again I say none of it was 'me' to begin with. Nor is it 'you'. Everything physical and mental functions perfectly fine, just without the push and pull of affect.

- Out of touch with reality: reality not getting through to you. Not being able to recognize things for what they are.


What is 'reality' to you, Simon?

If it is 'actuality' then I am certainly not 'out of touch' with it. I experience the 5 physical sense doors in perfect working order. I am able to think and reason perfectly fine and intelligence is now able to flow unhindered by the warping affective attention bounce/sense of being/ sense of inner world/sense of presence/sense of location in the world/sense of me-ness. There is nothing that warps perception like before. I am able to recognize things 'for what they are' more so than pre-af. The delusion of 'I', as it is a delusion, is a clustering or compounding of the aggregates to give rise to a misread illusory flow of felt existing as a subject to all the objects. This attachment to an illusion is delusion and 'out of touch with things as they are'.


Nick
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

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Nikolai .:
Simon L:
- Accurate perceptions: seeing things for what they are. For example, a trashcan is a trashcan, not a car. Nor a portal into another dimension. More on this at the delusions part.


Ok. I agree. This is the case at af more so than before as there is no filter of affective judgement to warp the perception of anything. I see things perfectly for what they are. No warping of any kind involved.

- In touch with reality: knowing what is going on around you.


I now perfectly what is going on around me. More so than pre-af. My senses have heightened due to the lack of the dulling affect of the veil of affective judgement and the attention bounce which would often distort subtly the way I understood things. This is not the case anymore. Without that perceptually dulling attention bounce there is a heightened awareness of what is going on around me. My wife has benefited from this as I no longer filter what she says through affective judging, and have become more attentive to her needs because of it. Sight and sound have become much easier to pick out due to the lack of attention bounce. This means I am much more aware of what is happening around me. I do not experience mental images as I once did. There is thus no mental projection overlaying, warping and dilluting experience like before. I am very much in touch with actuality.

- Functions: all the elements of one's being are undamaged. The whole system works so to speak.


What is the whole system? intelligence, consciousness, memory, discernment, intention, motor function, controlling the faculties, attentiveness, physical sensations? If so none of these are 'I' nor 'mine'. When 'I' has been expunged, these are all seen to work perfectly well, even clearer than before. 'I' has nothing to do with these things. 'I', the flow of 'being', is an illusory veil of affect, of craving and aversion, that covers up this fact. The whole system works perfectly fine without 'me' there.

- Delusions: believing things that aren't true. Like for example believing that everyone in the world is pure evil and out to get you.


Like believing in a separate 'self'? That a flow of 'being' was the be all and end all? That one exists on some level other than this flesh blood body? Believing that feelings are not 'me'? Believing that the end of suffering was not possible? That affect had to flow to 'be a human being'? That all of this intelligence, consciousness, memory, discernment, intention, motor function, controlling the faculties, attentiveness, physical sensations, was 'I', 'me', 'mine'? THIS is delusional.

Beliefs are locked in thoughts loops that condition our 'reality'. The entanglement of views. 'I' am a belief. Delusion. Beliefs keep us locked on a route that for good or bad is conditioned by those thought loops. This was all true for me pre-af. Beliefs:

As far as I see it, 'I' was inherently delusional. Now that 'I' is no more, there is now a lack of that delusional mental projection and actuality is my guide. What is experienced in the actual world is tangibly true. I do not need to speculate, although that can arise as a thought. There is preference for actual tangible truth over 'belief' based on speculation and mental projection.

- Psychosis: includes delusions. Also other things, like hearing voices, hallucinating.


I have never heard voices nor hallucinated. I have not experienced psychosis. Not before af nor after it.

- Functions impaired: being damaged in some way. Like a car with a flat tire. Functioning without all elements in place doing their job.


What is a 'function'? If you are referring to the 'whole system' again, then again I say none of it was 'me' to begin with. Nor is it 'you'. Everything physical and mental functions perfectly fine, just without the push and pull of affect.

- Out of touch with reality: reality not getting through to you. Not being able to recognize things for what they are.


What is 'reality' to you, Simon?

If it is 'actuality' then I am certainly not 'out of touch' with it. I experience the 5 physical sense doors in perfect working order. I am able to think and reason perfectly fine and intelligence is now able to flow unhindered by the warping affective attention bounce/sense of being/ sense of inner world/sense of presence/sense of location in the world/sense of me-ness. There is nothing that warps perception like before. I am able to recognize things 'for what they are' more so than pre-af. The delusion of 'I', as it is a delusion, is a clustering or compounding of the aggregates to give rise to a misread illusory flow of felt existing as a subject to all the objects. This attachment to an illusion is delusion and 'out of touch with things as they are'.


Nick


This makes sense. I have a disagreement with you about the exact nature of what is the illusion of self, but that is not important here anyway.

This puzzles me: are you saying that you have no feelings at all? It is about being happy and harmless, but there is no feeling of happiness for instance. Or, to give a couple examples that Richard mentions:

Naivete: there is no feeling associated to that?

Fascination: generally speaking, fascination is based on the feeling of fascination.

Just subtle senses of well being, delighting, etc., are those not there? How can you experience the world as being delightful, magical and fairy-tale like if you have no feelings of delight, a feeling generating the perception of it being fairy-tale like or a feeling that says "this is fairy-tale like".

Just some examples.
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

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Simon L:


This puzzles me: are you saying that you have no feelings at all? It is about being happy and harmless, but there is no feeling of happiness for instance. Or, to give a couple examples that Richard mentions:

Naivete: there is no feeling associated to that?

Fascination: generally speaking, fascination is based on the feeling of fascination.

Just subtle senses of well being, delighting, etc., are those not there? How can you experience the world as being delightful, magical and fairy-tale like if you have no feelings of delight, a feeling generating the perception of it being fairy-tale like or a feeling that says "this is fairy-tale like".

Just some examples.


Hi Simon,

A full blown real deal non-scripted actual long lasting PCE will show this. To try and describe what is affectless to someone who judges everything via feelings is hard to do. Words can be interpreted as affective or can represent an affectless quality. As I have said before, happy and harmless is a means to an end; the end of being ('me"). "Being' is the arising of any affect, thus the notion that 'I' am my feelings and my feelings are 'me'. All those descriptive words you mentioned can be interpreted as affectless or affective.

To cultivate being happy and harmless is to thin out the 'me' to eventually eliminate it, to in af speak, self-immolate. AF does entail a very continuous positive affectless mode of living and can be interpreted as 'happiness', a non-affective kind. Harmless is the quality of not harming. Is this affective?

To know the difference for oneself, best to aim for a real deal full blown PCE of which I only had two before af, of which trent, tarin, jill and others here had only one or two full blown ones as well before getting af. The rest of what people call PCEs are either but fleeting glimpses or very highly refined EE's (excellent experience), which is as close as one can get to a PCE without the felt sense of 'being' going into full abeyance. Many mistake these for the PCE as they look awfully the same. The flow of 'being' can get so refined that it feels like it isn't arising. Does one sense a presence or location in the world no matter how subtle it gets? If so, not a PCE.

I learned all I needed to know and all my worries and concern were put to rest when a full blown PCE was triggered. I don't think any amount of someone telling me how it was would have convinced me otherwise like the full blown PCE that eventually did.

Up until now, no one has dared to attempt the elimination of not only the instinctual emotions of fear and aggression, but nurture and desire as well – the whole instinctual programming. Each and every human is capable, given sufficient will and intent, of weakening the stranglehold that feelings, emotions and instincts have on their thoughts and behaviour to such an extent that they can become virtually free of their influence.

Then, and only then, is it possible that their elimination will occur through a mutation causing a total and complete disconnection from their source in our primitive animal brain. Once one gets rid of the whole lot for something extraordinarily magical lies in the direct sensate , sensible experience of the purity and perfection of the physical universe.
http://actualfreedom.com.au/library/topics/feelings.htm


Nick
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Simon L:


This puzzles me: are you saying that you have no feelings at all? It is about being happy and harmless, but there is no feeling of happiness for instance. Or, to give a couple examples that Richard mentions:

Naivete: there is no feeling associated to that?

Fascination: generally speaking, fascination is based on the feeling of fascination.

Just subtle senses of well being, delighting, etc., are those not there? How can you experience the world as being delightful, magical and fairy-tale like if you have no feelings of delight, a feeling generating the perception of it being fairy-tale like or a feeling that says "this is fairy-tale like".

Just some examples.


Hi Simon,

A full blown real deal non-scripted actual long lasting PCE will show this. To try and describe what is affectless to someone who judges everything via feelings is hard to do. Words can be interpreted as affective or can represent an affectless quality. As I have said before, happy and harmless is a means to an end; the end of being ('me"). "Being' is the arising of any affect, thus the notion that 'I' am my feelings and my feelings are 'me'. All those descriptive words you mentioned can be interpreted as affectless or affective.

To cultivate being happy and harmless is to thin out the 'me' to eventually eliminate it, to in af speak, self-immolate. AF does entail a very continuous positive affectless mode of living and can be interpreted as 'happiness', a non-affective kind. Harmless is the quality of not harming. Is this affective?

To know the difference for oneself, best to aim for a real deal full blown PCE of which I only had two before af, of which trent, tarin, jill and others here had only one or two full blown ones as well before getting af. The rest of what people call PCEs are either but fleeting glimpses or very highly refined EE's (excellent experience), which is as close as one can get to a PCE without the felt sense of 'being' going into full abeyance. Many mistake these for the PCE as they look awfully the same. The flow of 'being' can get so refined that it feels like it isn't arising. Does one sense a presence or location in the world no matter how subtle it gets? If so, not a PCE.

I learned all I needed to know and all my worries and concern were put to rest when a full blown PCE was triggered. I don't think any amount of someone telling me how it was would have convinced me otherwise like the full blown PCE that eventually did.

Up until now, no one has dared to attempt the elimination of not only the instinctual emotions of fear and aggression, but nurture and desire as well – the whole instinctual programming. Each and every human is capable, given sufficient will and intent, of weakening the stranglehold that feelings, emotions and instincts have on their thoughts and behaviour to such an extent that they can become virtually free of their influence.

Then, and only then, is it possible that their elimination will occur through a mutation causing a total and complete disconnection from their source in our primitive animal brain. Once one gets rid of the whole lot for something extraordinarily magical lies in the direct sensate , sensible experience of the purity and perfection of the physical universe.
http://actualfreedom.com.au/library/topics/feelings.htm


Nick


Makes more sense.

Richard says that it all becomes clear in a real, or full-blown as you call it, PCE. I don't think I've had that now that I understand all this better. Or if I have, I don't remember. Richard says that he thinks that everyone has had one, typically at a young age, and that it is difficult to remember it since it is not feeling based.

So if the evidence lies in a full blown PCE, I would like to have one that proofs to me undeniably that AF is it. My fear is that I might work towards one and it will result in actual freedom right away since it is full-blown. I would like to have one, see the proof, if there is proof, and then come back first to evaluate the experience.

Then I will know for sure if it is something to pursue or walk away from.

I just don't want to get past the irreversible part right away.

Any suggestions?
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Simon L:


Makes more sense.

Richard says that it all becomes clear in a real, or full-blown as you call it, PCE. I don't think I've had that now that I understand all this better. Or if I have, I don't remember. Richard says that he thinks that everyone has had one, typically at a young age, and that it is difficult to remember it since it is not feeling based.

So if the evidence lies in a full blown PCE, I would like to have one that proofs to me undeniably that AF is it. My fear is that I might work towards one and it will result in actual freedom right away since it is full-blown. I would like to have one, see the proof, if there is proof, and then come back first to evaluate the experience.

Then I will know for sure if it is something to pursue or walk away from.

I just don't want to get past the irreversible part right away.

Any suggestions?


There is no need to worry about it occurring without wanting it to. If you do not want AF to occur, it wont. As the wanting it not to occur is the very sense of being arising as that desire. And what does that sense of being/existing want more than anything else?

Yes, that's right: to exist. So if 'you' as that felt sense of existing wish to exist, you will as that is how it works. 'I' have to be completely on board the whole self-immolation trip if 'I' am to walk into oblivion willingly. So triggering a full blown PCE is safe. You wont have to do anything 'you' don't 'want' to do. 'You' have to want to walk into oblivion for it to happen. If 'you' dont want to, 'you' wont. 'You' will arise again from abeyance of a full blown PCE if the wish is there to keep existing. And thus the flow of being/becoming continues unhindered.

And even if by freaky chance, you get af on the 1st go, then there wont be 'anyone' there to be upset about it, and the mind/body organism by the name of Simon L will live on affectlessly happily and harmlessly till his dieing day. Life would be grand indeed.

;-)

Nick
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Simon L:


Makes more sense.

Richard says that it all becomes clear in a real, or full-blown as you call it, PCE. I don't think I've had that now that I understand all this better. Or if I have, I don't remember. Richard says that he thinks that everyone has had one, typically at a young age, and that it is difficult to remember it since it is not feeling based.

So if the evidence lies in a full blown PCE, I would like to have one that proofs to me undeniably that AF is it. My fear is that I might work towards one and it will result in actual freedom right away since it is full-blown. I would like to have one, see the proof, if there is proof, and then come back first to evaluate the experience.

Then I will know for sure if it is something to pursue or walk away from.

I just don't want to get past the irreversible part right away.

Any suggestions?


There is no need to worry about it occurring without wanting it to. If you do not want AF to occur, it wont. As the wanting it not to occur is the very sense of being arising as that desire. And what does that sense of being/existing want more than anything else?

Yes, that's right: to exist. So if 'you' as that felt sense of existing wish to exist, you will as that is how it works. 'I' have to be completely on board the whole self-immolation trip if 'I' am to walk into oblivion willingly. So triggering a full blown PCE is safe. You wont have to do anything 'you' don't 'want' to do. 'You' have to want to walk into oblivion for it to happen. If 'you' dont want to, 'you' wont. 'You' will arise again from abeyance of a full blown PCE if the wish is there to keep existing. And thus the flow of being/becoming continues unhindered.

And even if by freaky chance, you get af on the 1st go, then there wont be 'anyone' there to be upset about it, and the mind/body organism by the name of Simon L will live on affectlessly happily and harmlessly till his dieing day. Life would be grand indeed.

;-)

Nick


Thanks Nick, you've helped a lot. At this point I will have to think about all this and see where to go next.

Again, thanks!
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Simon L:

Thanks Nick, you've helped a lot. At this point I will have to think about all this and see where to go next.

Again, thanks!


Not a problem. Take your time with this. Investigate all of those concerns. Experiment and feel safe with it.

Nick
Nad A., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 237 Join Date: 8/26/10 Recent Posts
Hi Nick,

Don't know if you got my reply to your last message. I was asking: do you experience the universe to be infinite?

Richard:
I am this universe experiencing itself as an apperceptive human being; as such this universe is stunningly aware of its own infinitude

http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/listafcorrespondence/listaf20.htm
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Early days nad. Glimpses only so far.

SUBSCRIBER NO. 19: Does universe is infinite a certainty now? And can you explain about how do you know it with so much certainty.
VINEETO: It has been a certainty for me for a long time, intellectually understood at first, that there can’t be a ‘something’ let alone a ‘nothing’ beyond the imagined borders of the universe and any such ideas were experientially confirmed in my PCEs as being nothing other than human imagination in operation. However, about a week ago, I clearly experienced this consciousness being without limits and the vast stillness of the infinite universe became fully apparent. I then experienced it as a fact that I am this infinite universe experiencing itself as a flesh-and-blood conscious human being. This experience occurred again today but is not yet an ongoing moment-to-moment experience. Richard reported that it took him several years to realize the full depth and purity of an actual freedom.
It’s still early days.
Cheers Vineeto
http://actualfreedom.com.au/directroute/19.htm#24Jan10
Nad A., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 237 Join Date: 8/26/10 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Early days nad. Glimpses only so far.


Okey dokey.
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Bruno Loff, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Simon L:
I'm really concerned. I think that AF is a path into insanity.


About a year and a half ago, when I first realized that my perception was becoming so clear that, if things were allowed to continue as they were, everything would turn perfect and "I" would disappear,

I was assaulted by a very powerful rush of panic, fear, dread, horror.

When considering its own extinction, the first reaction from the affective entity is usually fear. If you base your judgement of the appropriateness of AF on an emotional assessment, you won't be able to make a decision based on fact.

What are the facts of the matter? If AF is, as you say, a path into insanity, then how is it so? Whom do you know that is AF and insane? How are "good emotions" in any way a sign of sanity?

The definition might come handy:

Sanity
1. The quality or condition of being sane; soundness of mind.
2. Soundness of judgment or reason.

So, are actually free people lacking soundness of mind? Soundness of judgement or reason?

Find the facts, and base your assessment on that. If you don't, you might as well go to the old gypsy witch for a palm-reading, or get your guidance from the contents of your dreams... as some people do.

In my opinion: you got scared, and that's all. Assuming you read the AF site thoroughly enough, you were warned that this could happen, no?
Simon L, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: New, final and official practice thread :) - Simon

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Bruno Loff:
Simon L:
I'm really concerned. I think that AF is a path into insanity.


About a year and a half ago, when I first realized that my perception was becoming so clear that, if things were allowed to continue as they were, everything would turn perfect and "I" would disappear,

I was assaulted by a very powerful rush of panic, fear, dread, horror.

When considering its own extinction, the first reaction from the affective entity is usually fear. If you base your judgement of the appropriateness of AF on an emotional assessment, you won't be able to make a decision based on fact.

What are the facts of the matter? If AF is, as you say, a path into insanity, then how is it so? Whom do you know that is AF and insane? How are "good emotions" in any way a sign of sanity?

The definition might come handy:

Sanity
1. The quality or condition of being sane; soundness of mind.
2. Soundness of judgment or reason.

So, are actually free people lacking soundness of mind? Soundness of judgement or reason?

Find the facts, and base your assessment on that. If you don't, you might as well go to the old gypsy witch for a palm-reading, or get your guidance from the contents of your dreams... as some people do.

In my opinion: you got scared, and that's all. Assuming you read the AF site thoroughly enough, you were warned that this could happen, no?


Where did you get that definition from? Surely it wasn't the DSM, since Richard himself says that he was diagnosed with multiple psychiatric disorders based on his experience.

Some arbitrary definition of sane doesn't make it so. Plus the definition you gave is incredibly vague.

"The quality or condition of being sane."

Doesn't say much except saying the word sanity in a sentence.

"Soundness of mind"

What does this mean? Soundness? Mind? These things need to be defined before it actually means something.

"Soundness of judgement or reason."

Soundness? What is that specifically? Judgement? Who determines what is sound judgement. Reason? Who determines what is sound reason.

This is so vague as to be useless. I'm sorry but this just hasn't been thought through.

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