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Mindfulness or Attentiveness
mindfulness feelings
Answer
9/4/11 9:26 PM
Question:
What is the difference between a constant mindfulness of the body and it's experiences, emotional, physical, and intellectual, and attentiveness??
Is it just that attentiveness includes an investigation into affective feelings?

Thanks,
Brian.

RE: Mindfulness or Attentiveness
Answer
9/4/11 10:05 PM as a reply to Brian Eleven.
Counter question: What's it to you? What difference does it make? In other words, what's the point of the question?

Also, from whose perspective are you asking the question? That is, from a personal perspective, from a Buddhist perspective, some other perspective?

Such questions begin to boarder on the ridiculous, with all the implied hair-splitting. In other words: Define it how you will.

RE: Mindfulness or Attentiveness
Answer
9/5/11 7:28 AM as a reply to Ian And.
Attentiveness to Sensuousness

If you keep in mind that 'sensuousness' is the point of contact of a sense object (sight, sound, smell, taste, sensations, and thoughts) and its corresponding sense door (eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, mind), then you know what to be attentive to.

at·ten·tive (-tntv)
adj.

1. Giving care or attention; watchful: attentive to detail. (the definition to keep in mind)

And reread http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/articles/attentivenesssensuousnessapperceptiveness.htm

"Attentiveness gets not infatuated with the good feelings nor sidesteps the bad as attentiveness is a non-feeling awareness; a sensuous attention. Attentiveness is not sentimental susceptibility for it does not get involved with affection or empathy or get hung up on mercurial imaginations and capricious intuitions or ephemeral auguries. Attentiveness does not register feelings and compare the validity of experience according to it ‘feeling right’ or ‘feeling wrong’. Attentiveness is an aesthetic alertness that takes place with minimised reference to self. With attentiveness one sees the internal world with blameless references to concepts like ‘my’ or ‘mine’. Suppose there is a feeling of sadness. Ordinary consciousness would say, ‘I am sad’. Using attentiveness, one heedfully notices the feeling as a natural feeling – ‘There is human sadness’ – thus one does not tack on that possessive personal concept of ‘I’ or ‘me’ ... for one is already possessed. Attentiveness is the observance of the basic nature of each arising feeling**; it is observing all the inner world – emotional, passionate and calentural – which is whatever is presently taking place in the affective faculty. Attentiveness is seeing how any feeling makes ‘me’ tick – and how ‘I’ react to it – with the perspicacity of seeing how it affects others as well. In attentiveness, there is an unbiased observing of the constant showing-up of the ‘reality’ within and is examining the feelings arising one after the other ... and such attentiveness is the ending of its grip. Please note that last point: in attentiveness, there is an observance of the ‘reality’ within, and such attention is the end of its embrace ... finish.
Here lies apperception." Richard


** As far as I understand this highlighted sentence, it means to be attentive to the very 'basic nature' of one's experience in any given moment. And at any given moment a sense door is being hit with a sense object and out of ignorance and lack of apperceptive awareness, mental proliferation follows and gives rise to affective feelings and a sense of 'being'/me-ness/inner world/presence/location in the world. If you are attentive to the point of contact of a sense object and its corresponding sense door, the sequence that usually out of ignorance follows the point of contact onto the arising of an affective filter/sense of 'being' will be interrupted. Doing this continuously will then eventually lead to apperception (PCE: the temporary abeyance of mentioned sense of 'being' etc.). If it helps to equate 'mindfulness' to 'attentiveness' then do so.

RE: Mindfulness or Attentiveness
Answer
9/5/11 9:59 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
The original OP was asked from the Insight and Wisdom forum, which presumably is meant to be within a Buddhist context (hence my question to the OP about "perspective"), and from not the AF or Actual Freedom subforum. Had it been asked from the latter, I would not have responded, as in my view AF is an unnecessary, superfluous, and distracting practice. Although for those who feel they have benefited from it, I say good for you, I wish you the best with that.

Brian Eleven:
Question:
What is the difference between a constant mindfulness of the body and it's experiences, emotional, physical, and intellectual, and attentiveness??
Is it just that attentiveness includes an investigation into affective feelings?


Nikolai .:


Attentiveness is the observance of the basic nature of each arising feeling**; it is observing all the inner world – emotional, passionate and calentural – which is whatever is presently taking place in the affective faculty. Attentiveness is seeing how any feeling makes ‘me’ tick – and how ‘I’ react to it – with the perspicacity of seeing how it affects others as well. In attentiveness, there is an unbiased observing of the constant showing-up of the ‘reality’ within and is examining the feelings arising one after the other ... and such attentiveness is the ending of its grip. Please note that last point: in attentiveness, there is an observance of the ‘reality’ within, and such attention is the end of its embrace ... finish.
Here lies apperception." Richard


** As far as I understand this highlighted sentence, it means to be attentive to the very 'basic nature' of one's experience in any given moment. And at any given moment a sense door is being hit with a sense object and out of ignorance and lack of apperceptive awareness, mental proliferation follows and gives rise to affective feelings and a sense of 'being'/me-ness/inner world/presence/location in the world. If you are attentive to the point of contact of a sense object and its corresponding sense door, the sequence that usually out of ignorance follows the point of contact onto the arising of an affective filter/sense of 'being' will be interrupted. Doing this continuously will then eventually lead to apperception (PCE: the temporary abeyance of mentioned sense of 'being' etc.). If it helps to equate 'mindfulness' to 'attentiveness' then do so.

Although, Nikolai's response in the footnoted (**) paragraph above may be just what the OP was looking for clarification about. In which case I applaud his response.

RE: Mindfulness or Attentiveness
Answer
9/5/11 10:29 AM as a reply to Ian And.
Ian And:
The original OP was asked from the Insight and Wisdom forum, which presumably is meant to be within a Buddhist context (hence my question to the OP about "perspective"), and from not the AF or Actual Freedom subforum. Had it been asked from the latter, I would not have responded, as in my view AF is an unnecessary, superfluous, and distracting practice. Although for those who feel they have benefited from it, I say good for you, I wish you the best with that.


Hi Ian,

Yes, you are right. It was my mistake not to pay attention to the subforum this was posted in. I should have made a disclaimer or something.

However, in my view and experience, putting certain dogmas aside on both sides, the AF path to the ending of 'being' is awfully similar to the ending of 'becoming' often talked of by the Buddha in the pali canon.

Rev, from a Buddhist standpoint, if you take the following instructions by the Buddha to Bahiya and consider 'attentiveness to sensuousness' as the same practice (being attentive to the senses and their objects at the point of contact), it will lead to apperception (PCE) and the dropping away of any felt sense of 'you' and all mental 'stress' along with it. Keep doing this practice non-stop till it becomes 'out-from-control' and it will lead to 'you' vanishing for good, and along with it, all mental 'stress' associated with 'being' an illusory subject.

"Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html


Nick

RE: Mindfulness or Attentiveness
Answer
9/5/11 10:56 AM as a reply to Ian And.
Ian,
Firstly, sorry for posting in the "wrong" sub forum, my mistake. I wasn't paying enough attention(rushing), sorry it upset you, not my intention at all.
Second, I'm asking from a personal perspective. Someone who is willing to investigate and use those practices that help me reduce my own suffering, and the suffering of those around me. Perhaps you are correct and "AF is an unnecessary, superfluous, and distracting practice". I'll decide that when I know more about it. Thank you for your input.

Nikolai,
As always, thank you for the response. I suspect Ian is correct and I'm splitting hairs, but I'm just trying to understand the practices and how to use them to the best ends.