EQ-esque solution for DN effects

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Ni Nurta, modified 2 Months ago.

EQ-esque solution for DN effects

Posts: 664 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Not sure if that is basic knowledge but the best way to deal with DN effects is to already go to EQ with one difference: anything which related to what transpired during A&P need to avoided by not experiencing it, not focusing on it, not focusing on not focusing on it, etc., it is just something which has to be naturally avoided when noticed otherwise no special attention should be given to it.

Focus in A&P is usually very centered, then on DN it moves to the sides and in EQ is everywhere.
In this EQ-esque mind state that helps with DN what is need is to induce general EQ vibe which has focus everywhere. With except where it feels like it has anything to do with A&P.

Normally due to how mind works what was in the center will eventually move to the sides of perception. DN pattern of perception happens exactly because we cling to A&P and we expect it in the middle of attention where it is. So we want center but do not want to find something else there thus we cannot experience it as it is. Also since we do cling to A&P we constantly move attention where it currently is (which is on the sides) through different means (we still hit the same parts of brain) than where it is in in attention and thus most focus is naturally brought to the sides where these tired A&P parts of brain are located in awareness.

Nothing prevents experiencing EQ-like state with clearly defined center and sides just after A&P happened. It won't be the same kind of center as it just was in A&P though and the part agitated and tired by A&P will over time move outwards and if that is to be avoided it will make these parts of perception on sides to be avoided as well... which is like absolutely no issue at all. If anything it makes such EQ-esque mind state feel completely normal with focus in the center getting most attention. Thinking might be harder than normally and during EQ, with kinda less working space with some of it feeling like what should be avoided. It is still much better than going through DN.

The whole sequence of these A&P parts going through whole attention might still take some time, especially since it tend to go through whole cycle few times (which correspond with dukkha nanas) but much quicker than doing it normally (just suffering XD). Also mind can be studied much better doing DN that way along with studying how things move around the awareness, the whole pattern. With clear seeing and already being disconnected from directly experiencing these hurting parts of mind better ideas might be born like how to do their cessation and this is already better place to be at to execute them and remove hurting part from awareness completely. Hitting it is still possible, so some discipline is needed but after this all is done then the nature of the issue is seen even more clearly. Otherwise experience is free from any DN effects and suffering.
George S, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: EQ-esque solution for DN effects

Posts: 1658 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
+1 That's how I learned to navigate the DN, accepting that the centre of attention has collapsed and pushed everything out to the periphery (Daniel's donut). From a psychological perspective as well, accepting that it's not a personal narrative with me at the centre. Just the first arrow, not the second. emoticon
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Pepe, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: EQ-esque solution for DN effects

Posts: 352 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
Don't know if you are talking about DN post-SE or pre-SE. In my pre-SE case, it was just as "simple" as observing which other parts of my body / thoughts had neutral or pleasant vibe. That's related to what Daniel mean by 'proportionality' in Some perceptual benefits of Full Enlightenment :

"The other thing is the proportionality, which is a hard thing to explain. 99% of this room – even if I’m in pain somewhere – has no pain. And this is the vast experience, so the whole room is the experience evenly in some kind of way. Let’s say I have a pain in my knee: it’s no bigger than it is. In comparison to the volume of the space, it’s still really small. And the mind is also not doing that contracted exaggerating thing it used to do, where it would take the pain and make this big thing out of it and ignore all the areas that were neutral or even pleasant, that it becomes the sort of fixation. Whereas (now) even when I have pain in one place, most other places are neutral and or might even feel nice".

"And so, also things that feel nice are much easier to perceive as I’m here. You can’t see me now because this is an audio, but I’m moving my hands around and like the coolness of the air on my fingers, it’s delightful. There’s something about the echo in the room that sounds kind of cool, like even that little click of your fingers, like it has a sort of nice little snap to it. There’s the glistening of the light on your hair, which is just naturally kind of cool when it’s just allowed to be itself, and that sort of childlike wondrous way of people perceiving things when they’re just in it, like you’re watching a beautiful sunset, you forget about the day and you’re just in the beautiful colors …"

"Well, everything has something of that to it in some way, because there’s the immediate sensate experience and it’s raw – well not raw, because we get everything kind of processed, but as raw as you can get with the human brain that receives everything kind of processed, and so there’s something really nice about that. The proportionality of thought also. So emotions are mostly thoughts and then you get contracted into the thought rather than having it just be this wispy thing in space. And then because when you contract into the thought it then becomes a huge part of your world and then that distorts how much of a reaction you have to it. And then that costs a much greater release of all the stress chemicals if you’re having some unpleasant thought, because the brain is now taking that as a total world or whatever, and you get lost in the anger or whatever and then that creates a whole much bigger stress response and all these chemicals".

"Well now it’s not that there aren’t stressors and things, but the thought arises in the room, is proportional, and in terms of experience the thoughts are really small wispy things most of the time. And then the stress chemicals that result from that, even if it’s a really unpleasant thought, are vastly less because the experience of it wasn’t contracted into and the brain didn’t freak out that now this is a total world cut off from most of the room, which again is fine, and in fact pretty nice. So, it’s not that it made all bad emotions go away, but the relationship to it and the physiology of it is really different".
George S, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: EQ-esque solution for DN effects

Posts: 1658 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Wow your experience sounds really smooth. emoticon

I imagine that DN severity is strongly related to how much emotional and psychological baggage one is carrying when one starts meditating. emoticon
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Pepe, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: EQ-esque solution for DN effects

Posts: 352 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
Actually, that was just how I finally got out of DN, but not my first experiencies in DN emoticon . I looped A&P-DN for several years before getting to know MCTB1, due to qigong practices, poor sleeping, and striving. What helped me with DN symptoms in first place was practicing Shinzen Young's "gone noting". But perhaps what helped me more was rising a child, learning to be a grown up father and husband, plus dealing with my parents illness and death, and so I had to deal with a lot of the emotional baggage I have been carrying for ages. So what you say about DN severity and emotional and psychological baggage is totally true in my case too. I restarted a meditation practice nearly a year ago, when my child started school and most of my parents' health drama had been already walked through. 
George S, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: EQ-esque solution for DN effects

Posts: 1658 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Inspirational, thanks for sharing emoticon​​​​​​​
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Ni Nurta, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: EQ-esque solution for DN effects

Posts: 664 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Don't know if you are talking about DN post-SE or pre-SE. In my pre-SE case, it's just was as "simple" as observing which other parts of my body / thoughts had neutral or pleasant vibe.

Good question.
Post-SE awareness is naturally wider and show more awareness at once and obviously person who got there has more skills and knowledge of EQ so I would say rather post-SE for seeing things from perspectives I am referring to, if not higher as these kind of methods I myself started really developing at 2nd path and for the effect I really have in mind it would be 3rd path. Apparently for people this whole cycling can get pretty crazy at 3rd path and idea of stopping DN in its tracks is not very popular and seen as some kind of pointless struggling. It is in a sense but transforming objects in mind/awareness allows to find causes much faster and this ends DN in the end. Keeping more distance from this stuff, even if at first it feels a little artificially caused helps see these things in right context while being inside this vortex of dukkha makes anything, even if right thing to do, feel painful thus in this situation there is much less probability it will be done. Besides it is closely related to general vibe of anatta, seeing that these things are not really what we are.

I heard Daniel's proportionality in one of his interviews. He talked about it when asked question about enlightenment. When the question was asked I like "oh, so here we go to the best part emoticon" and when Daniel started talking about it I was at first a bit confused but then I liked it. In some sense enlightenment is like it, though perspective is even wider than room and immediate surrounding. Dare me to say it is like whole universe was object of awareness.
George S, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: EQ-esque solution for DN effects

Posts: 1658 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
So enlightenment is a special state of mind? emoticon
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Ni Nurta, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: EQ-esque solution for DN effects

Posts: 664 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
George S
So enlightenment is a special state of mind? emoticon

Enlightenment is lighting up of Enlightenment status LED in your mind. It is quite bright so can help with finding your keys in the dark.
When you have keys you can open special door.
Behind the door there is special chest with item which seems to radiate strange light.
If you find which key open the chest you will find out that inside the chest is your status LED.
You can then go for a quest of finding replacement for something nicer like eg. these old school incandescent lamps. Uses more power but give more pleasant golden light and give more warmth than cold blue LED did. Or you can put Class 1 lasers inside, your choice really.

Hope this answered your question emoticon
George S, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: EQ-esque solution for DN effects

Posts: 1658 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Bloody perfect! emoticon