RE: striking out

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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
striking out


   Since so far I can’t follow current discussions, perhaps I will strike out on my own and initiate a thread I can follow. 

   I’ve been thinking about my project. A first, actually, not usually finding any need to project outcomes. Still, the perennial questions for any endeavor is why am I doing this and what am I doing. Question mark.

   We have the mindset, the weltanschuung, of an industrial culture. We are conquering nature,  and being fruitful and multiplying. A philosophy of production and consumption, and the more the better. But we live in a world which simply will not sustain our current trajectory as a “successful” species.

   If the planet and its living being(s) is considered as an entity, an organism, it has become unhealthy. Global warming, proliferating zoonoses, pollution, depletion of resources, catastrophic declines in biodiversity… It seems that total collapse of the web of life (and incidentally the food chain) are not only inevitable but imminent.

   Any facing up to and dealing with this Situation requires a step back from everydayness and the development of a sense of what is needed to restore the world organism to health.

   Every generation is born perfectly ignorant and needs to be educated. As the proverb goes: “learn one, do one, teach one.” In this manner each generation is brought up to speed and then cycles down. There is always “progress” in the sense of forward movement but it is not always toward positive goals. Now we speak of overpopulation and obesity where once we scrabbled for calories and struggled to keep our young alive.

   Now we need to be concerned, all of us, with the survival of our world, the continued existence of our race and our relations.

   My project involves tweaking the mindset, I perceive. (Let them eat tweaks. Or, tweakies.)

 We’re pretty much stuck in the 1600s with descartes, in whom the baby truly left the bathwater and went down the plughole. Formerly most people considered scientific progress secondary to spiritual progress. Cartesian radical doubt eliminated spiritual imagination and diverted attention into to the ego and its ability to impose its will on matter. Anything immaterial is set asides doubtful, and eventually fades from vision altogether. Now we mostly see a world only of physical objects, and imagination is hazy at best. Where once it was as vivid as daytime.

   Many of can agree now that spiritual progress may be the only solution to a sustainable relationship with our world. Many still think science will bail us out. Certainly the current administration imagines we can green energy our way to sustaining current levels of energy use, which is so obviously absurd one wonders how they can so delude themselves, or if it is all just cynicism and exploitation. Radical conservation would be the cornerstone of any effective strategy to reduce global warming and there is not a moment to lose. When it gets bad enough people will acknowledge the problems and burn to solve them. Millennials are due their wake up call, if they are not oversleeping already.


   Our culture as we transmit it to our young is historical. Our best ideas go back to the buddha, to lao/chuang taoism, to the prophets and the greeks. All our spiritual traditions teach transcendence of the ego and taking responsibility for the health of everything under the sun. In genesis god’s original task for adam was to take care of the garden and to be satisfied in this humble capacity. Instead, mankind found themselves naked and ashamed.

   I want to change the way we see everything. This is a lengthy project and I have to bring this post to some sort of resting point some time, so I’ll try to briefly indicate what I want to talk about.

   In the beginning was the void, and god said “let there be light.” In other words, “in the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god.”

   A question I have returned to again and again in my contemplations is “what is light?” in the spiritual, imaginal, intellectual sense. What is clarity? What, indeed, is existence?

   “Light” is consciousness, awareness. Insight. By shining into the dark, it brings things into the light, into existence. Without light no things appear, and it is due to the appearance of actual things that we can project that all we don’t see nonetheless exists. Pittsburg, the eiffel tower, the atlantic ocean - I can’t see them but I presume they exist, along with stars and dandelions.

  The old world-view tells you that things exist in themselves. (Even kant knew better, let alone heraclitus, the buddha, lao tzu, etc.) We (our culture, in general - the “they-self”)  imagine our selves to be internal to our bodies and that we are walking about in a world chock full of real objects which exist of themselves. The new world view involves seeing that the only objects which exist do so in relation to a human subject.

   We take existence to be reality. We take our consciousness to hold the entire universe, and imagine it includes everything. So, first off there is the idea that existence is only what we know as very limited sentient (that is, conscious) beings, and that reality is vastly, vastly greater. Dogen likens our plight to that of a man on a raft in the middle of the ocean, knowing nothing of cities and continents and myriad living beings, and absorbed in his infinitely varied little stretch of ocean.

   Our true being is not just that of another object. We come into existence full blown, aware of ourselves as a historical being with a past and a future, and that we exist, here and now. We endow other beings, animate and inanimate, with being as well. In each of us the light of consciousness creates the world of existence. We attune our world to that of “others” and constantly make it more consistent with the “they.”

   We invent a past consistent with our world as we understand it, to suit our desires, and we project a future of fulfilled desires, towards which we strive. Absorbed in this striving, in everydayness, consciousness contracts. We develop routines, habits, and save ourselves the effort of thinking or confronting new things or learning new tasks.

   Or maybe we feel a conscience, some anxiety, and we wonder “who am I” and “what is there worthwhile to do?” In this manner consciousness expands.

   I’m going to taper off here with the idea I hope I have conveyed that reality is a great void and that consciousness is a tiny light in a dark little corner, and it is in danger. We need a collective consciousness that can help us cope with the demise of our planetary environment.

   And we need it tout suit (and the tooter, the sweeter.)


terry



augustine

CONFESSIONS - BOOK ELEVEN
CHAPTER XIV

17. There was no time, therefore, when thou hadst not made anything, because thou hadst made time itself. And there are no times that are coeternal with thee, because thou dost abide forever; but if times should abide, they would not be times.

For what is time? Who can easily and briefly explain it? Who can even comprehend it in thought or put the answer into words? Yet is it not true that in conversation we refer to nothing more familiarly or knowingly than time? And surely we understand it when we speak of it; we understand it also when we hear another speak of it.

What, then, is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks me, I do not know. Yet I say with confidence that I know that if nothing passed away, there would be no past time; and if nothing were still coming, there would be no future time; and if there were nothing at all, there would be no present time.

But, then, how is it that there are the two times, past and future, when even the past is now no longer and the future is now not yet? But if the present were always present, and did not pass into past time, it obviously would not be time but eternity. If, then, time present--if it be time--comes into existence only because it passes into time past, how can we say that even this is, since the cause of its being is that it will cease to be? Thus, can we not truly say that time is only as it tends toward nonbeing?



   Since so far I can’t follow current discussions, perhaps I will strike out on my own and initiate a thread I can follow. 
   I’ve been thinking about my project. A first, actually, not usually finding any need to project outcomes. Still, the perennial questions for any endeavor is why am I doing this and what am I doing. Question mark.
   We have the mindset, the weltanschuung, of an industrial culture. We are conquering nature,  and being fruitful and multiplying. A philosophy of production and consumption, and the more the better. But we live in a world which simply will not sustain our current trajectory as a “successful” species.
   If the planet and its living being(s) is considered as an entity, an organism, it has become unhealthy. Global warming, proliferating zoonoses, pollution, depletion of resources, catastrophic declines in biodiversity… It seems that total collapse of the web of life (and incidentally the food chain) are not only inevitable but imminent.
   Any facing up to and dealing with this Situation requires a step back from everydayness and the development of a sense of what is needed to restore the world organism to health.
   Every generation is born perfectly ignorant and needs to be educated. As the proverb goes: “learn one, do one, teach one.” In this manner each generation is brought up to speed and then cycles down. There is always “progress” in the sense of forward movement but it is not always toward positive goals. Now we speak of overpopulation and obesity where once we scrabbled for calories and struggled to keep our young alive.
   Now we need to be concerned, all of us, with the survival of our world, the continued existence of our race and our relations.
   My project involves tweaking the mindset, I perceive. (Let them eat tweaks. Or, tweakies.)
 We’re pretty much stuck in the 1600s with descartes, in whom the baby truly left the bathwater and went down the plughole. Formerly most people considered scientific progress secondary to spiritual progress. Cartesian radical doubt eliminated spiritual imagination and diverted attention into to the ego and its ability to impose its will on matter. Anything immaterial is set asides doubtful, and eventually fades from vision altogether. Now we mostly see a world only of physical objects, and imagination is hazy at best. Where once it was as vivid as daytime.
   Many of can agree now that spiritual progress may be the only solution to a sustainable relationship with our world. Many still think science will bail us out. Certainly the current administration imagines we can green energy our way to sustaining current levels of energy use, which is so obviously absurd one wonders how they can so delude themselves, or if it is all cynicism and exploitation. Radical conservation would be the cornerstone of any effective strategy to reduce global warming and there is not a moment to lose. When it gets bad enough people will acknowledge the problems and burn to solve them. Millennials are due their wake up call, if they are not oversleeping.

   Our culture as we transmit it to our young is historical. Our best ideas go back to the buddha, to lao/chuang taoism, to the prophets and the greeks. All our spiritual traditions teach transcendence of the ego and taking responsibility for the health of everything under the sun. In genesis god’s original task for adam was to take care of the garden and to be satisfied in this humble capacity. Instead, mankind found themselves naked and ashamed.
   I want to change the way we see everything. This is a lengthy project and I have to bring this post to some sort of resting point some time, so I’ll try to briefly indicate what I want to talk about.
   In the beginning was the void, and god said “let there be light.” In other words, “in the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god.”
   A question I have returned to again and again in my contemplations is “what is light?” in the spiritual, imaginal, intellectual sense. What is clarity? What, indeed, is existence?
   “Light” is consciousness, awareness. Insight. By shining into the dark, it brings things into the light, into existence. Without light no things appear, and it is due to the appearance of actual things that we can project that all we don’t see exists. Pittsburg, the eiffel tower, the atlantic ocean - I can’t see them but I presume they exist, along with stars and dandelions.
  The old world-view tells you that things exist in themselves. (Even kant knew better, let alone heraclitus, the buddha, lao tzu, etc.) We (our culture, in general - the “they-self”)  imagine our selves to be internal to our bodies and that we are walking about in a world chock full of real objects which exist of themselves. The new world view involves seeing that the only objects which exist do so in relation to a human subject.
   We take existence to be reality. We take our consciousness to hold the entire universe, and imagine it includes everything. So, first off there is the idea that existence is only what we know as very limited sentient (that is, conscious) beings, and that reality is vastly, vastly greater. Dogen likens our plight to that of a man on a raft in the middle of the ocean, knowing nothing of cities and continents and myriad living beings, and absorbed in his infinitely varied little stretch of ocean.
   Our true being is not just that of another object. We come into existence full blown, aware of ourselves as a historical being with a past and a future, and that we exist, here and now. We endow other beings, animate and inanimate, with being as well. In each of us the light of consciousness creates the world of existence. We attune our world to that of “others” and constantly make it more consistent with “they.”
   We invent a past to suit our desires and project a future of fulfilled desires, towards which we strive. Absorbed in this striving, in everydayness, consciousness contracts. We develop routines, habits, and save ourselves the effort of thinking or confronting new things or learning new tasks.
   Or maybe we feel a conscience, some anxiety, and we wonder “who am I” and “what is there worthwhile to do?” In this manner consciousness expands.
   I’m going to taper off here with the idea I hope I have conveyed that reality is a great void and that consciousness is a tiny light in a dark little corner, and it is in danger. We need a consciousness that can help us cope with the demise of our planetary environment.
   And we need it tout suit (and the tooter, the sweeter.)

terry


CONFESSIONS - BOOK ELEVENCHAPTER XIV
17. There was no time, therefore, when thou hadst not made anything, because thou hadst made time itself. And there are no times that are coeternal with thee, because thou dost abide forever; but if times should abide, they would not be times.
For what is time? Who can easily and briefly explain it? Who can even comprehend it in thought or put the answer into words? Yet is it not true that in conversation we refer to nothing more familiarly or knowingly than time? And surely we understand it when we speak of it; we understand it also when we hear another speak of it.
What, then, is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks me, I do not know. Yet I say with confidence that I know that if nothing passed away, there would be no past time; and if nothing were still coming, there would be no future time; and if there were nothing at all, there would be no present time.
But, then, how is it that there are the two times, past and future, when even the past is now no longer and the future is now not yet? But if the present were always present, and did not pass into past time, it obviously would not be time but eternity. If, then, time present--if it be time--comes into existence only because it passes into time past, how can we say that even this is, since the cause of its being is that it will cease to be? Thus, can we not truly say that time is only as it tends toward nonbeing?


   
   
striking out

   Since so far I can’t follow current discussions, perhaps I will strike out on my own and initiate a thread I can follow. 
   I’ve been thinking about my project. A first, actually, not usually finding any need to project outcomes. Still, the perennial questions for any endeavor is why am I doing this and what am I doing. Question mark.
   We have the mindset, the weltanschuung, of an industrial culture. We are conquering nature,  and being fruitful and multiplying. A philosophy of production and consumption, and the more the better. But we live in a world which simply will not sustain our current trajectory as a “successful” species.
   If the planet and its living being(s) is considered as an entity, an organism, it has become unhealthy. Global warming, proliferating zoonoses, pollution, depletion of resources, catastrophic declines in biodiversity… It seems that total collapse of the web of life (and incidentally the food chain) are not only inevitable but imminent.
   Any facing up to and dealing with this Situation requires a step back from everydayness and the development of a sense of what is needed to restore the world organism to health.
   Every generation is born perfectly ignorant and needs to be educated. As the proverb goes: “learn one, do one, teach one.” In this manner each generation is brought up to speed and then cycles down. There is always “progress” in the sense of forward movement but it is not always toward positive goals. Now we speak of overpopulation and obesity where once we scrabbled for calories and struggled to keep our young alive.
   Now we need to be concerned, all of us, with the survival of our world, the continued existence of our race and our relations.
   My project involves tweaking the mindset, I perceive. (Let them eat tweaks. Or, tweakies.)
 We’re pretty much stuck in the 1600s with descartes, in whom the baby truly left the bathwater and went down the plughole. Formerly most people considered scientific progress secondary to spiritual progress. Cartesian radical doubt eliminated spiritual imagination and diverted attention into to the ego and its ability to impose its will on matter. Anything immaterial is set asides doubtful, and eventually fades from vision altogether. Now we mostly see a world only of physical objects, and imagination is hazy at best. Where once it was as vivid as daytime.
   Many of can agree now that spiritual progress may be the only solution to a sustainable relationship with our world. Many still think science will bail us out. Certainly the current administration imagines we can green energy our way to sustaining current levels of energy use, which is so obviously absurd one wonders how they can so delude themselves, or if it is all cynicism and exploitation. Radical conservation would be the cornerstone of any effective strategy to reduce global warming and there is not a moment to lose. When it gets bad enough people will acknowledge the problems and burn to solve them. Millennials are due their wake up call, if they are not oversleeping.

   Our culture as we transmit it to our young is historical. Our best ideas go back to the buddha, to lao/chuang taoism, to the prophets and the greeks. All our spiritual traditions teach transcendence of the ego and taking responsibility for the health of everything under the sun. In genesis god’s original task for adam was to take care of the garden and to be satisfied in this humble capacity. Instead, mankind found themselves naked and ashamed.
   I want to change the way we see everything. This is a lengthy project and I have to bring this post to some sort of resting point some time, so I’ll try to briefly indicate what I want to talk about.
   In the beginning was the void, and god said “let there be light.” In other words, “in the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god.”
   A question I have returned to again and again in my contemplations is “what is light?” in the spiritual, imaginal, intellectual sense. What is clarity? What, indeed, is existence?
   “Light” is consciousness, awareness. Insight. By shining into the dark, it brings things into the light, into existence. Without light no things appear, and it is due to the appearance of actual things that we can project that all we don’t see exists. Pittsburg, the eiffel tower, the atlantic ocean - I can’t see them but I presume they exist, along with stars and dandelions.
  The old world-view tells you that things exist in themselves. (Even kant knew better, let alone heraclitus, the buddha, lao tzu, etc.) We (our culture, in general - the “they-self”)  imagine our selves to be internal to our bodies and that we are walking about in a world chock full of real objects which exist of themselves. The new world view involves seeing that the only objects which exist do so in relation to a human subject.
   We take existence to be reality. We take our consciousness to hold the entire universe, and imagine it includes everything. So, first off there is the idea that existence is only what we know as very limited sentient (that is, conscious) beings, and that reality is vastly, vastly greater. Dogen likens our plight to that of a man on a raft in the middle of the ocean, knowing nothing of cities and continents and myriad living beings, and absorbed in his infinitely varied little stretch of ocean.
   Our true being is not just that of another object. We come into existence full blown, aware of ourselves as a historical being with a past and a future, and that we exist, here and now. We endow other beings, animate and inanimate, with being as well. In each of us the light of consciousness creates the world of existence. We attune our world to that of “others” and constantly make it more consistent with “they.”
   We invent a past to suit our desires and project a future of fulfilled desires, towards which we strive. Absorbed in this striving, in everydayness, consciousness contracts. We develop routines, habits, and save ourselves the effort of thinking or confronting new things or learning new tasks.
   Or maybe we feel a conscience, some anxiety, and we wonder “who am I” and “what is there worthwhile to do?” In this manner consciousness expands.
   I’m going to taper off here with the idea I hope I have conveyed that reality is a great void and that consciousness is a tiny light in a dark little corner, and it is in danger. We need a consciousness that can help us cope with the demise of our planetary environment.
   And we need it tout suit (and the tooter, the sweeter.)

terry


CONFESSIONS - BOOK ELEVENCHAPTER XIV
17. There was no time, therefore, when thou hadst not made anything, because thou hadst made time itself. And there are no times that are coeternal with thee, because thou dost abide forever; but if times should abide, they would not be times.
For what is time? Who can easily and briefly explain it? Who can even comprehend it in thought or put the answer into words? Yet is it not true that in conversation we refer to nothing more familiarly or knowingly than time? And surely we understand it when we speak of it; we understand it also when we hear another speak of it.
What, then, is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks me, I do not know. Yet I say with confidence that I know that if nothing passed away, there would be no past time; and if nothing were still coming, there would be no future time; and if there were nothing at all, there would be no present time.
But, then, how is it that there are the two times, past and future, when even the past is now no longer and the future is now not yet? But if the present were always present, and did not pass into past time, it obviously would not be time but eternity. If, then, time present--if it be time--comes into existence only because it passes into time past, how can we say that even this is, since the cause of its being is that it will cease to be? Thus, can we not truly say that time is only as it tends toward nonbeing?


   
   




   




   
   

   





   
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
wow, that was fast! way faster than my short replies...
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
sorry for all the dupes, it's deathray's fault...
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 5303 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Well, it was worth repeating. 
genaro, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 60 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
terry i'm intrigued, you have a thread!

you say a lot and I'm confused.

Two questions:

1) this project - is it a terry project or does it involve other people ie are you about to become a blogger/influencer/guru/pundit/politician/mercenary/prosletiszer/marketing executive/author? [1]

2) you mention time a bit and also the deep past eg the greeks. do you have any particular emphasis on Kronos or Kairos? [2]

3) are you about to declaim some of your own verses perhaps? [3]

Stay cool and enjoy!



--
footnotes
[1] in other words are you looking to influence people or looking for followers?
[2] hey I'm not particulary clever or educated, there just happened to be a column in the FT weekend about time, it was too good to waste lol. yet it's a question.
[3] would be good to see what you can come up with, given that you have a history of quoting a lot of other peeps.

And no I didn't expect the third question here (no-one did), but I'm sure you know the script
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
(thanks, linda)



genaro posted and I pasted:

(quote)

terry i'm intrigued, you have a thread!

you say a lot and I'm confused.

Two questions:

1) this project - is it a terry project or does it involve other people ie are you about to become a blogger/influencer/guru/pundit/politician/mercenary/prosletiszer/marketing executive/author? [1]

2) you mention time a bit and also the deep past eg the greeks. do you have any particular emphasis on Kronos or Kairos? [2]

3) are you about to declaim some of your own verses perhaps? [3]

Stay cool and enjoy!



--
footnotes
[1] in other words are you looking to influence people or looking for followers?
[2] hey I'm not particulary clever or educated, there just happened to be a column in the FT weekend about time, it was too good to waste lol. yet it's a question.
[3] would be good to see what you can come up with, given that you have a history of quoting a lot of other peeps.

And no I didn't expect the third question here (no-one did), but I'm sure you know the script
(unquote)


aloha genaro,

   Yeah, I rarely post a thread, in the past they have often not been well attended. It's ony because I have so far not figured out how to participate otherwise and yet retain some semblance of a familiar style. You know, you and me, and all the other special persons on a similar quest of self-discovery.

   I haven't said much so far and intend to say even less, one of the significances of "striking out." 

   The project is mine and ours, me and you, dialectic or dia-logos. I can foreshadow an explication of our oneness once having established our nothingness. Our significance and its basis of insignificance. Order and chaos. Heaven and earth. Yang and yin. Alpha and omega. (It's all one.)

   The question of labels (words) is amusing because I intend to undermine and establish those as well. Strike them out and reveal what they conceal.

   I beat followers off with a stick. I warn them against being influenced. (Not that I'm unapproachable; bodhidharma accepted eka. After all.) As dante read when entering the underworld: "all hope abandon ye who enter here." As I said, I want to change the way we see everything. If you don't have room in your house for a elephant, don't make friends with a elephant keeper. If anything, I'm fishing without a net or line for the great golden fish which leaps into the boat of its own accord. Seeking the harvest of the third year's fields without having sown or cultivated to that end. The dealer looking for a joker so high and wild he'll never have to deal another. If anything.

   I often burst into poetry, and the line between discursive and poetic can be hard to draw. Perhaps one day I will write verse. Maybe when my bodhisattva becomes a real girl. Could happen anyday. I'm a miner for a heart of gold, and, uh...umm.

   As for quoting peeps, so often they say what I am trying to convey in words of such grandeur and significance that reading them more than conveys an idea, it conveys the history of human thought and the potentials of being human. The clarity of heidegger's "what is metaphysics"  maked me simply want to recommend reading it, and I could quote lots of it if I wanted to scissor it up, but the whole of it is uniformly brilliant, the high water mark of western philosophy.

(not the best translation, but ready to hand)
https://www.stephenhicks.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/heideggerm-what-is-metaphysics.pdf

   Even so, heidegger was writing mostly for other philosophers (especially carnap and the logical positivists) and my audience, if any, is my fellow meditators who in my view are far more qualified for knowledge than students of thought using discursive methods.

   Is my project then for you and not me, or me and not you?  If I can make the great matter clear to me, I can make it clear to anyone. I am some one.

   Kronos and kairos are a wonderful way to take a dip into the freshness of greek thought on these subjects we so boringly and stupefyingly take for granted. We imagine an objective world but it has become anything but due to the very blindness we have to our own subjectivity, individuality and imaginations.

   Kronos is clock time, kairos is timing. The external and internal senses of time were (at least) equal to the greeks and now we know nothing of timing, unless we are professional comics or some kind of artist. (Watch lucille ball always pick the perfect moment for a retort. Or leave it to beaver's jerry mathers when he was in single digits.) This is peripherally related to my project in that I'm going to look at the phenomenology of nothing, which is  primordially entirely subjective, since there is only one of us, at most. Thus timing is everything. Time illuminates all of metaphysics. Space, similarly illuminating, is a matter of spacing, of placing near and far, close and distant. Physical space is as concealing as clock time and as superfical, unoriginal and inauthentic. And as heidegger quintessentially says, "nothing nothings." 

   Anyhows, bra, thanks for the encouragement and I will proceed to strike two, wherein nothing is indeed not something, yet something is truly nothing.

terry


angst or "dread" is the chaos which overwhelms order or reason, a mood we nearly always hold at bay by falling into everydayness, generally through idle chatter... it is "the gateway to all mystery' (tao te ching)...


“Negation is not the most original experience of the nothing. Whether expressed or implied, the act of negation does permeate all our thinking in so many ways, and yet it is not the best evidence of the revelation of the nothing essential to openness. Negation should not be seen as the only (much less the primary) activity in which openness relates to and is shaken by the action of the nothing. Cruel hostility and the sting of hatred go deeper than the formalities of mental negations. Painful denial and ruthless refusal are closer to – and bitter privation is a greater burden of – the nothing. These more primary possibilities of relating to the nothing - powerful ways in which openness puts up with but never masters its thrownness - are not sub-sets of the genus “negation.” However, that does not prevent them from expressing themselves in the “not” and “negation.” In fact they first reveal the depth and breadth of negation.

Dread is there but dormant. Openness is thus saturated with its relation to the nothing - evidence that the nothing is always, if obscurely, revealed even though dread is required to disclose it in an originary way. But this also implies that originary dread is mostly suppressed in our openness. Dread is there, but dormant. Its breathing ever stirs within our openness, not very much in the nervous, hardly at all in the yeas and nays of the busy bourgeoisie. It is most astir in the reserved, and most surely in the openness of those who take the basic risk. This happens by spending oneself on the essential so as to preserve the greatness of the open that we are.

This dread born of risk is not the opposite of joy, or even of quiet activity and calm enjoyment. It transcends such oppositions and lives in secret communion with the serene and gentle yearnings of creativity.

Originary dread can awaken in openness at any moment; no exceptional event is needed to rouse it. Its power is as deep as its possible occasions are unexceptional. It is always on the verge of springing forth but seldom does. But when it does, it seizes us and leaves us hanging.”

Excerpt From: Martin Heidegger. “What is Metaphysics?.” 
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
genaro, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 60 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
well that's completely over my head.

so consider me beaten off with a stick

but somehow I've got tom waits' 'the ocean doesn't want me to day ' as an earworm, it's a song about the ultimate negation, that will be strike three i guess. 

​​​​​​​https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/tomwaits/theoceandoesntwantme.html

(didn't watch the videos BTW i tend to skip most of those as i get chased by google demanding permission to steal all my data).
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terry, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
believe me, genaro, google already has all your data...
genaro, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 60 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
believe me, genaro, google already has all your data...


terry: thanks for the nudge, I took the opportunity to select 'delete all after 3 months' and they said 'there's nothing to delete'.

FWIW i looked at my 'google account' which exists only because i have an android phone and they claim to have nothing on me at all except the few apps  downloaded and a very small number of emails they might have sent me. I downloaded 'all my data' and that was a 4.8Mb zip file which was almost all empty reports. 1.6Mb of that was a 'getting started' file on google drive. They claim they don't know where i've been!

There's basically nothing there they admit to having that i could ask them to delete, even the email they have is dead.

Try using Brave as a browser and DuckDuckGo for search.

Yes I don't believe google don't have data related to me, it's all filed under the mac addresses of every device i've ever used, and without an account linked to it it's all secret knowledge. Most of the pages on the web use google anaytics but theoretically i get to avoid that, and smartphone apps talk to each other so pass on data that should be not available, but i avoid them.  What i really want is a mac address obfuscator.


So yes maybe I could view you-tube (i have history and search turned off) but I take the view that minimum contact with the digital vampires is best. The last time i used you-tube direct i did it via tor, and after excerpt no 2 it started to complain re security issues :-)

Paranoid? Moi?  I've not yet met anyone with a smart speaker, but being me if i do I'll start talking about toilet seats a lot to prime the advert recommendations.  It's worth trying to lob a spanner into their machines.




Unrelated to all that:  your OP entitled 'striking out' i managed to misinterpret completely.  I grokked 'stepping forth' not 'striking out
as in erasing things' and completely missed the baseball metaphore, not being a goddam yankee.


best of luck with the project.
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terry, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
thanks, buddy...


I'm going slowly as it is easy to explain but hard to really change. I have to change myself.

Samsara is easy to propagate but actually getting out of the water is another thing entirely.

Communicating isn't enough.


I actually wrote a big chunk the other day but somehow deathray ate my data. Just as well. 


Anyhow, here is a contribution to the idea of followers. One doesn't help anyone by associating with selfseekers, and they are frequently met with. There needs to be a sense of mutual help or nothing fecundates.


from 'learning how to learn' by idries shah:


​​​​​​​
ATTITUDES OF DISCIPLES


People tend to think first and mostly of themselves. This can mean that when they hear of our work, they passionately desire to take part in it, to learn more, to benefit themselves personally. When they do this it always means that they are feeding their ownselfishness, and have become fixated on personal advantage.

On the other hand, when people come into contact with our ideas and spread them to others in the right kind of way (that is, not cultishly or by setting themselves up as teachers) they are sharing as well as taking something in.

Such people never clamour first of all to be received, seen, taught, and so on. They cultivate a group of people, spread this knowledge as best they can, and then they ask whether they should come or whether someone might visit them. They are, in fact, in a condition to learn and to serve as well as to be served. This estab­lishes the continuum of serving and being served.

Others, on the other hand, spend large amounts of money to travel, collecting it sometimes from others, and think only of themselves, even if they do not realise it. If they do not see this behaviour in themselves it is for us to point it out to them, so that they can profit from so doing, and learn to readjust their greed by establishing the serve and be served continuum. This is what my teacher taught me. He used to say: 'Many people think I am only testing them when I send them messages to this effect or if I do not answer them, giving them an opportunity to change their approach from "Give me" to "What can I do?" but you will see, in this very place, how the people who come here under such conditions turn out to be unreachable, mere metaphysical tourists.'

He was completely right. So, by refusing to teach, he gave them an opportunity of learning this behaviour of their own through self­ observation. Some of them, although only a minority, actually learned this. Of course, we have been able to cut down very much on this difficulty by publishing anecdotes where it has been shown by classical and other teachers how anxiety to learn is sometimes a mask for self-interest. This has enabled quite large numbers of people to adopt a correct posture towards the Teaching.

Learning how to learn is well illustrated by this kind of ap­proach, and this does show how one and the same person can be unable to profit from the Teaching while he or she insists on ex­tending this greed side of the personality towards it, and how the same person may be able to learn when applying the better and more promising side towards it.

But do not forget that there are just as many who do not know how to teach as there are who cannot, in their present state, learn. There is even the circumstance that people who think that they can teach, are unconcerned about the learning side.
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terry, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
genaro:
well that's completely over my head. so consider me beaten off with a stick but somehow I've got tom waits' 'the ocean doesn't want me to day ' as an earworm, it's a song about the ultimate negation, that will be strike three i guess.  https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/tomwaits/theoceandoesntwantme.html (didn't watch the videos BTW i tend to skip most of those as i get chased by google demanding permission to steal all my data).
<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />I found the "reply with quote" button but haven't yet figured out how to use it like you did...<br /><br /><br /><br />anyhows, here's one about influence...<br /><br /><br />from the way of chuang tzu trans merton...<br /><br /><br /><br />​​​​​​​<br /><br />THE EMPTY BOAT&nbsp;<br /><br /><br />He who rules men lives in confusion;<br />&nbsp;He who is ruled by men lives in sorrow.&nbsp;<br />Yao therefore desired&nbsp;<br />Neither to influence others&nbsp;<br />Nor to be influenced by them.&nbsp;<br />The way to get clear of confusion&nbsp;<br />And free of sorrow Is to live with&nbsp;<br />Tao In the land of the great Void.<br /><br />&nbsp;If a man is crossing a river&nbsp;<br />And an empty boat collides with his own skiff,&nbsp;<br />Even though he be a bad-tempered man&nbsp;<br />He will not become very angry.&nbsp;<br />But if he sees a man in the boat,&nbsp;<br />He will shout at him to steer clear.&nbsp;<br />If the shout is not heard, he will shout again,&nbsp;<br />And yet again, and begin cursing.&nbsp;<br />And all because there is somebody in the boat.&nbsp;<br />Yet if the boat were empty,&nbsp;<br />He would not be shouting, and not angry.<br /><br />&nbsp;If you can empty your own boat&nbsp;<br />Crossing the river of the world,&nbsp;<br />No one will oppose you,&nbsp;<br />No one will seek to harm you.<br /><br /><br /> 
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terry, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

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see?


from 'the way of chuang tzu,' trans merton
​​​​​​​


THE EMPTY BOAT 


He who rules men lives in confusion;
 He who is ruled by men lives in sorrow. 
Yao therefore desired 
Neither to influence others 
Nor to be influenced by them. 
The way to get clear of confusion 
And free of sorrow Is to live with 
Tao In the land of the great Void.

 If a man is crossing a river 
And an empty boat collides with his own skiff, 
Even though he be a bad-tempered man 
He will not become very angry. 
But if he sees a man in the boat, 
He will shout at him to steer clear. 
If the shout is not heard, he will shout again, 
And yet again, and begin cursing. 
And all because there is somebody in the boat. 
Yet if the boat were empty, 
He would not be shouting, and not angry.

 If you can empty your own boat 
Crossing the river of the world, 
No one will oppose you, 
No one will seek to harm you.
genaro, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 60 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
terry ...

That's two or is it three posts that i interpret as replying/ directed to me, so i guess you want a response!  

I did like the quote from idres shah, very apt, i have deep respect for the sufi tradition, it seems based very much in practicalities. It seems familiar somehow.

Earlier when i said 'I'm confused' it was an allusion to the fact that you'd mentioned "Descartes, buddha, lao/chuang taoism, prophets, greeks, genesis, kant, heraclitus, the buddha, lao tzu, etc, Dogen, augustine", and many other things.

And heidegger was a bit depressing to read so i skipped that. (i bounced off it)


So I'll mention the boat thing.

You say "see ?", followed by a poem

I see something from this but I'm not clear about what point you're trying to pass on. There's a bit about the unskilfullness of anger (instead of evasive action for example), a bit about lack of personal responsibility (shouting rather than evasive action), and a bit about perhaps no-self (last verse), yet it's remarkably poor advice to someone crossing a busy road.  Yet seeking to not influence anyone (for example, 4th line in the poem) does not quite match with what you've said upstream.

If i said 'yes i see' what would you understand?
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terry, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
   “The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish, and when the fish are caught the trap is forgotten. The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits. When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten. The purpose of the word is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.”

~chuang tzu


  We are caught in a trap, in nets of words. The tao te ching tells us: "more words count less." And, "he who talks does not know; he who knows does not talk." Zen requires "no dependence on words and letters." How are we then to communicate? Of course, it is words and letters themselves which inform us of their own emptiness. Like the ego telling us to abandon the ego.

   A paradox only because words make it so. Words were once tools but now have become our very environment, a veil keeping us from the world. Everything we see and do is a simulation of what we once knew as real.

  When we say, "I think," we feel sure that this, at least, is "true." "Think" is a verb, and a verb requires actor, so we assume for the sake of conversation that we - that is, "I" - are doing thinking. This is the disease, the root of mental illness. Samsara. Universal suffering. Aka "identification" or "attachment."

   I can't talk philosophy with "philosophers," who are all what plato hated and opposed as "sophists." People lost in egotism "using" "philosophy" for personal gain. The love of truth has nothing to do with it, indeed is despised as naive.

   Who can I talk to? Those who have "forgotten words," meditators. People who have confronted what we call "monkey mind," the babble that reveals itself when we take it as  a "whole mass of suffering" and deal with it as a monolith, something to be overcome. We begin a process, what we call a practice, of detaching from our "voices."

   If we then consider these voices as phenomena, they begin to reveal "who" they are, and "where" they are coming from. Like, they are nobody and come from nowhere. A thought comes into our head and if we are identified we believe that there is some real self who really exists and is us. The real problem being: this self who we imagine is thinking is not our real self at all.

   Our thoughts spring from all manner of instinctual fears and desires. The more attention we give them, the more we take them seriously, the more strongly they seem to be who we are. None of them are who we really are, they are our "crowd of inferiors," a veritable mob of would be usurpers of our consciousness and intellect. 

   Carol anthony comments on hexagram 52 of the yi jing:


"Meditation is a route to attaining clarity. Through it we disconnect ourself from the ego's dominance. When we first attempt meditation, we encounter restlessnes in the form of pressuring thoughts. For example, we may wonder why we make the effort. This wondering is the ego's resisting loss of its dominance. If we resolutely resist such thoughts and persist in our effort, ego separation begins. A space develops between ourselves and our ego. Thoughts that seemed to be our own now seem to come from elsewhere and we are conscious only of hearing and considering them. If we continue listening in this objective way, we may even see that they come from dwarf sized people with childish impetuosity: fearful and urging us to look or to act when worried, or gleeful when pleased. They are not unlike Snow White's seven dwarfs, some grumpy, some complaining, some self-pitying, some generous, some timid and some bubbling with enthusiasm. Both good and bad, they are our "inferiors." The point at which we can see and hear them is important, because we become aware of our true self - the eye that sees and the ear that hears."


   When the mob rules, we have mental illness. People listen to their voices and the more fear is generated by these voices the more compelling they become. Eventually one's "chemistry" changes due to chronic states of anxiety and depression, and they become habitual tendencies.

   These "demons" are in fact a mob of unruly children requiring discipline and love. One may laugh at their chronic stupidities and predictable concerns, restrain the powerful urgings, and treat with contempt the evil impulses.

   Once the gang is put in their place and kept there, we can be the eye and ear of god, the knower. We cannot speak, but we can listen to the dharma.

   So, this is you who I am speaking to, the listener to the dharma, those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

   I know that disciplinng this crowd and ignoring them is difficult, and takes a lot of practice. People have doubts, fears, and mistrust, and listen to and identify with these concerns. We can identify with our inner napoleon, and give the crowd "a whiff of grapeshot." Having real self-confidence is having confidence in the integrity if this "non-self" who is unattached, and is the opposite of self esteem, or vanity.

   The people who can detach and see things clearly are the two per cent, the elite, the pacesetters, the charismatic people who the crowd follows. The ones who let themselves go and channel the zeitgeist. The herd does not want to lead, they have problems of their own and lack any sort of confidence, unless it is in being a donkey and being skilled in smelling donkey urine in the road.

   Rarely, a gazelle is caught and put in the stable with the donkeys. Or a royal falcon is put into a cage with crows. Rumi's images refer to our true self being caught up with these dwarfs, our crowd of inferiors all clamoring for attention and driving us mad, or to drink. Our relief? "I take refuge in the buddha, the dharma, and the sangha."

   It is really these self confident free spirits I need to speak with. Like nietzsche, I could be content to think that they'll show up sooner or later, in god's good time, but as I have indicated, our time on this planet may not be long if we don't wake up soon, so we might as well roll the dice.

   It isn't a matter of desire to lead and show people the way, again, that is the opposite of what is needed. Anyone who can free themselves of the crushing dominance of ego and begin to deal with the Situation is one of the two per cent. It is a matter of taking responsibility for the dim and blind because you can see. Moi? Oui, vraiment.

   Take your insistent voices to a therapist and they will take them seriously, exactly the wrong thing, and probably offer you drugs if you won't pretend you have changed, the next exact wrong thing. Incidently, this "treatment" ensures that they will have lots more business down the road.

   Ditch your voices and you find you are with us, facing the Situation.

   In my next installment I will trace the loss of the world back to the learning of language. Eventually we can perhaps unlearn language as a veil and a snare and regain it as a tool for communicating ideas.


terry



from "ode on intimations of immortality" by wordsworth:


Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting;
The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
         Hath had elsewhere its setting
              And cometh from afar;
         Not in entire forgetfulness,
         And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come 
              From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!
Shades of the prison-house begin to close
              Upon the growing Boy,
But he beholds the light, and whence it flows,
              He sees it in his joy;
The Youth, who daily farther from the east
    Must travel, still is Nature's priest,
         And by the vision splendid
         Is on his way attended;
At length the Man perceives it die away,
And fade into the light of common day.
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terry, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
aloha genaro,

   If you are going to skip the videos, you won't see.

   And the heidegger was the best part.

   Hopefully if you stick with it wome sort of insight will arise, probably something I didn't mean at all.

​​​​​​​   (winky smiley)

terry
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terry, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

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I know this is long, but I resisted posting wordsworth's whole ode, which I consider perhaps the best poem ever written in the english language...

It's ok to skip but you may find it rewarding and germane...

(rumi wrote in persian...)

I painstakingly typed this in for a friend because I couldn't find a digital copy...




this is from “feeling the shoulder of the lion,” rumi, trans barks…





THE GAZELLE


A hunter captures a gazelle and puts it
in the stable with the cows and the donkeys.

The gazelle runs about wild with fear and confusion.
Every night the man pours out chopped-up straw
for the barn animals. They love it,
but the gazelle shies quickly from side to side
in the big stall, trying to get away
from the smokey dust of the straw
and the animals milling to eat it.

Whoever has been left for a time
with those who are different
will know how forsaken
this gazelle feels.

Solomon loved the company of the hoopoe.
“Unless she has a valid excuse to be absent,
I will punish her for not being here 
with the worst punishment there is.”

And what might that be? What the gazelle
is going through: to be confined somewhere
apart from your own kind.

The soul is that way in the body,
a royal falcon put in with crows.
It sits here and endures what it must,
like a great saint, like an Abu Baker,
in the city of Sabzawar.

Once the great king Khwarizm
besieged Sabzawar. They gave up easily.
“Whatever you require in tribute we will give.”

“Bring me a holy person, someone who lives
united with God, or I will harvest
your inhabitants like corn.”

They brought sacks of gold. They knew that
no one is Sabzawar lived in that state.
“Do you think I am still a child
that I should be fascinated with coins?”

For three days and nights
they called through the town
looking for an Abu Baker.

Finally, they saw a traveler
lying in a ruined corner of a wall,
sick and exhausted.

Immediately, they recognized a True Person.
“Get up! The king wants to see you.
You can save our lives!”

“I’m not supposed to be here.
If I could walk, I would already have arrived
in the city where my friends are.”

They lifted him above their heads on a board
like corpses are carried on
and bore him to the king.

Sabzawar is this world,
where a True Person wastes away,
apparently worthless,

yet all the king wants from Sabzawar
is such a one. Nothing else would do.

Muhammed says, “God does not look at outward forms,
but at the love within your love.”

The Qalb, the inner heart, that space 
in which seven hundred universes 
are just a lost speck,

we’re looking for that in the small,
seedy town of Sabzawar! And sometimes,
we find it.

One who has that love is like a six-sided mirror
through which God can look at us, here.

The gifts come through such a one.
His palm opens without conditions.
That union cannot be said.

I leave this subject with you.

Wealthy people bring money.
God says, “Bring devotion to one
whose loving mixes with mine.”

That love is what God wants.
That love is a mother and father
to us and is the origin of every living creature.

You might say, “Lord,
I have brought this heart-love.”

“Qutu, an ordinary town in Turfan
is full of this kind of love. Instead,
bring the Qalb of the Qutb, the soul
of the soul of Adam.”
 
God waits for that.
One may wander days in Sabzawar
and not see such a being.

The noblest native in Sabzawar might come,
and God would say, “Why do you offer this
rotting corpse? Bring the inner love
of one who can save Sabzawar.”

Just the sight of them together,
a native of Sabzawar and a True Human Being,
who might be traveling through,
is painful. Yet sometimes they talk.

A townsperson may behave kindly
toward a Qalb-person, but it’s almost always
hypocrisy. He nods and says yes.
He acts sincere, but he’s really tricky,
and looking for an advantage.

If a saint accepts his hypocrisy,
he’s saved, and that often happens.
The holy ones love to buy damaged goods,
and turn lying into truth.

If someone’s trickery seems charming to you,
remember he’s only your saint, not a real one.
Someone who is like you will often sound prophetic.

Renounce sensuality so you can sharpen
your spiritual sense. Your olfactory nerve
has been deadened. You cannot catch the fragrance
of sweet musk or ambergris. It’s as though
they no longer exist for you.

All this time, our gazelle
has been running back and forth in the stable!

For many days this precious animal
wriggles like a fish thrown up on dry ground.
Like dung and rare incense closed
side by side in a box.

One donkey says sarcastically, “This guy is wild!
He must be somebody special!”

Another, “With all his ebb and flow, he must be
making a pearl. Probably a cheap one."

Another, “Why can’t he eat what we eat?”

Another donkey gets indigestion and offers 
the gazelle his fodder with a formal invitation.

“No thank you. I am unwell too.”

The donkey is offended. “Don’t be so aloof.
Are you afraid of what people will say
if you’re seen eating with me?”

The gazelle doesn’t answer, but he thinks, 
“Your food is for you. It revives your strength.
But I have known a pasture by a creek
where hyacinths and anemones and sweet basil grow.
My food is there. Some destiny put me here,
but I can’t forget the other. If my 
body gets old and sick, still my spirit 
can stay new.”

The donkey seems to know what the gazelle 
is thinking. “Yes, anyone dan brag
in strange country. Who’s to know?”

The gazelle, “This musk gland identifies me,
but no one here has a nose tuned to that scent.
Donkeys like to smell donkey urine on the road,
and that’s all.”

Muhammed says, “True surrender is odd
in this world. Even ‘Islamic’ relatives
avoid a perfect saint.”

He or she may look human, but there’s a lion nature
inside. If you’re happy being a cow, stay away.

Potiphar, the king of Egypt, in a dream once
saw with his spiritual eyes seven well-nourished cows
and seven lean cows that came and ate the fat cows.

Lean cows are lions inside,
like a True Person who can detach you completely
from the dregs of your cow-nature

and make you so pure and spacious
that your foot touches Orion’s belt.

How long will I keep caw-talking like a crow?

Husam, why did you kill your rooster?

“Because I began to hear
the friend’s voice
inside me.”

A rooster loves lust, and lust again,
and instant satisfaction of lust,
that poisonous, cheap wine.

If it weren’t necessary for procreation, Adam
would have castrated himself in shame
over his own lechery.

Satan comes to God and says,
“I need some powerful bait.”

God gives him gold and silver
and herds of beautiful horses.

“Bravo!” says Satan, but his lip drops,
and he screws up his lemon face.

God throws in the other precious metals 
and the gemstones.

“Oh thank you! And might there be anything else
around here that I could use?”

God gives the marbled meats,
and the tasty sherbets,
and the silk robes.

“But I need something that will hold and keep holding
like a rope woven of palm-fiber,
so that your holy people can show their holy strengths
by bursting something very powerful.
I want an even more cunning lure.”

God brings wine and a harp.
Satan smiles a crooked half-smile.
Those are not exactly what he had in mind.

The suddenly, as though a dry path appeared
through the Red Sea, Satan saw the beauty of women,
and he began to dance. “More! More!”

The hazy eyes, the fascination of a soft cheek,
a cheekbone, a reddening lip, the glance
that burns a man like a cumin seed
on a hot fire-brick!

A young woman’s light, coquettish half-walk, half-run
springs to Satan’s eyes like a revelation of divine glory,
and a lifting of the veil.

Some comment on the text, We created man  woman
in the best physical and mental proportion,
and then We reduced them to the lowest of the low
.

The garden beauty, to which the angels bowed down,
after a time, was dragged by the hair
by Gabriel and led out.

Why? Why was paradise lost?
Why does a date-palm lose its leaves in autumn?
Why does every beautiful face grow in old age
wrinkled like the back of a Libyan lizard?
Why does a full head of hair get bald?
Why is the tall, straight figure
that divided the ranks like a spear
now bent almost double?

The bright-red anemone grows saffron.
Lion strength weakens to nothing.
The wrestler who could hold anyone down
is led out with two people supporting him,
their shoulders under his arms.

These are all messages from the fall.
What fault was committed?

God answers,
                       “The crime is
that they put on borrowed robes
and pretended they were theirs.

I take the beautiful clothes back,
so that you will learn the robe
of appearance is only a loan.”

The sheaf-stack belongs to God.
Human beings are gleaners.
Rays from the sun.

The earth-colored glass
makes everything seem diverse,
but that glass eventually shatters.

Your lamp was lit from another lamp.
All God wants is your gratitude for that.

Lend, is the divine command.
Make God a loan from your existence,
and see what fortunes accumulate!

Diminish a little, for your own sake,
all this eating and drinking, and watch
a new basin fill in front of you.

Then God may say, “Death, 
give back what you took.”

But you’ll turn away.
You won’t want those things.

Sufis throw away their wanting and their objects.
They abandon pieces of clothing in the dance,
and those articles are never returned.

They are given to the singer,
or divided among the dancers.

They arise from a briny, annihilating 
ocean into pure clarity.

They confront the world openly with its arrogance
and its hypocrisy. They are warriors 
for non-existence.

The planter works with the most joy
whose barn is completely empty,
the planter who works for that 
which has not appeared.

Second by second I know you’re expecting
some sure understanding, some spiritual perception,
some peace, but I am not allowed to say
more about this mystery,

or else I would create a Baghdad
in the wilds of the Georgia mountains,
and there would be no more doubting!
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terry, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
correction: I said, "might as well roll the dice" but I meant to say, "might as well go for broke"

​​​​​​​aloha
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terry, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

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​​​​​​​The Second Coming 
BY WILLIAM BUTLER YEATS

Turning and turning in the widening gyre   
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere   
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst   
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.   
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out   
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert   
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,   
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,   
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it   
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.   
The darkness drops again; but now I know   
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,   
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,   
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
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terry, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
trusting soul that I am, I don't back up my posts before posting them...

I just spent five hours on a long post and it totally disppeared when "published"...

I feel bad about that, not wanting to do it again...


heraclitus says all human effort is like a child at the sea shore, building up structures and then kicking them down again, all in play...


I have to say I feel defeated here by deathray, the destroyer, I can't be doing this any more...
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Josef Kyle Chan, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 43 Join Date: 6/16/20 Recent Posts
Hello !

I still hope that you post terry emoticon  This is sadly the three marks manifesting as always 
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terry, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
​​​​​​​strike three...
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 3862 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Noooooo!

I'll miss you, terry.
genaro, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 60 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
terry ...

five hours of no doubt intense thought, not to mention blisters on your fingers ... yes i'd be pee'd off.  I hope it rhymed!
but hey, come on, resilience .... what you do this stuff for?
man up, why make such a sissy fuss* about it?  

here's a kind suggestion:

1) beam into the DhO and look at the page that excites you
2) compose something in a text editor, occasionally clicking on the 'save' button
3) when it's just jim dandy, log in to the DhO, and cut and paste the words into deathray, adjust the formatting and click on 'Publish'

I still won't understand what you say, but hey I'm weird.


* apologies,  i cannot resist a pun, especially when i visit the autism spectrum disorder spectrum.  and apologies to anyone offended by hetero normative cis gender conversational gambits, it was kind of forced by the pun, i have no particular attachment to the words.  *-o

may terry find renewed vigour!  may the DhO be redeemed!
may i stop sending stupid posts!
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Siavash ِ, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1198 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
 I will miss you too terry.

I hope you continue to post, if possibe, please.
Thanks. 
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terry, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
sissy fuss, I like that...it's an uphill battle...

continuing to post is going to be difficult if the machine rejects "long" posts...


I do have more I would like to share, though...I'll try to be brief...I'm not good at backing up...


so, to zen buddhism as post modern philosophy...
​​​​​​​

time and narrative...ricouer, marcel, merleau-ponty, I love them dearly...


the narrative creates the narrator: we become who we are by telling stories about ourselves and others, the internalization of the child's continual pretending...the stories all feature "selves" and anchor them in past-present-future....

most psychologists encourage this process, a process of selfing, of enhancing the self, taking control and navigating your life, wanting you to have more "good" stories to enhance self-esteem, which they mistake for eudaimonia, the good life...

buddhism recommends the opposite, unselfing, giving up the narrative, giving up past and future, living presently and harmoniously without fuss, passive or active...


as nietzsche says in ten sentences what others can't say in whole books, simone weil condenses the work of the above philosophers into a few paragraphs...like poetry, it needs a bit of interpreting...


simone weil says in gravity and grace:


RENUNCIATION OF TIME

Time is an image of eternity, but it is also a substitute for eternity.

The miser whose treasure has been taken from him. It is some of the frozen past which he has lost. Past and future, man’s only riches.

The future is a filler of void places. Sometimes the past also plays this part (‘I used to be,’ ‘I once did this or that . . .’). But there are other cases when affliction makes the thought of happiness intolerable; then it robs the sufferer of his past (nessun maggior dolore . . .).

The past and the future hinder the wholesome effect of affliction by providing an unlimited field for imaginary elevation. That is why the renunciation of past and future is the first of all renunciations.

The present does not attain finality. Nor does the future, for it is only what will be present. We do not know this, however. If we apply to the present the point of that desire within us which corresponds to finality, it pierces right through to the eternal.

That is the use of despair which turns the attention away from the future.

When we are disappointed by a pleasure which we have been expecting and which comes, the disappointment is because we were expecting the future, and as soon as it is there it is present. We want the future to be there without ceasing to be future. This is an absurdity of which eternity alone is the cure.


Time and the cave. To come out of the cave, to be detached, means to cease to make the future our objective.

A method of purification: to pray to God, not only in secret as far as men are concerned, but with the thought that God does not exist.

Piety with regard to the dead: to do everything for what doe not exist.

The suffering caused by the death of others is due to this pain of a void and of lost equilibrium. Efforts henceforward follow without an object and therefore without a reward. If the imagination makes good this void—debasement. ‘Let the dead bury their dead.’ And as to our own death, is it not the same? The object and the reward are in the future. Deprivation of the future—void, loss of equilibrium. That is why ‘to philosophise is to learn to die’. That is why ‘to pray is like a death’.

When pain and weariness reach the point of causing a sense of perpetuity to be born in the soul, through contemplating this perpetuity with acceptance and love, we are snatched away into eternity.

end quote


and this is analyzed with a zen buddhist perspective in the following article:


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23312521.2019.1567296



(smile)
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1506 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
I like that - 'the internalization of the child's continual pretending' 

Sometimes I find it hard to tell the difference between giving up the narrative and suppressing the narrative ... it's just a narrative, after all emoticon
genaro, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 60 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
welcome back terry.

just write it all offline and then cut and paste , it's painless


that longish quote from simone made more sense to me that a lot of the previous stuff, & certainly a lot more fun than heidegger.
... but it will take a while to peruse the rest.
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terry, modified 27 Days ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
of course, heidegger was a nazi, but simone weil, aka "the red virgin" was never known as a "fun" person...

but yes, mysticism is more fun than philosophy...aeschylus used to make fun of socrates, a well known gadfly and bore, given to unseemly rages and personally ugly which was in itself offensive to greek sensibilities...but youth love to have their morals corrupted...

cutting and pasting is fine but not as spontaneous and throwing stuff you have worked hard at into the void is an habitual tendency....

the article linked is excellent,needless to say... linda might particularly find it interesting...

terry



"All joy is IDIOT JOY!
All wisdom is IDIOT WISDOM!"

r h blythe, from zen in english literature and oriental classics
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terry, modified 27 Days ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
the post that disappeared featured jean baudrillard and may have appeared (at first reading) as opaque and disturbing as the heidegger...

t



much of it was inspired by the following, which I used as a central text and expanded on a great deal; that part of my project involved exploring how as a culture we tend to mistake the sign for the real...the buddha recognized the sign world as one of karma, of cause and effect and the willing (sentience) which sees "things" that way, and expounded a dharma of the real involving the dependent coarising of phenomena, emphasizing direct perception without conceptual mediation or filtering (conditioning)...

you know, stuff like 'this is fun and that isn't'...

​​​​​​​anyhows:

quote:

Representation stems from the principle of the equivalence of the sign and of the real (even if this equivalence is Utopian, it is a fundamental axiom). Simulation, on the contrary, stems from the Utopia of the principle of equivalence, from the radical negation of the sign as value, from the sign as the reversion and death sentence of every reference. Whereas representation attempts to absorb simulation by interpreting it as a false representation, simulation envelops the whole edifice of representation itself as a simulacrum.

Such would be the successive phases of the image:

it is the reflection of a profound reality;
it masks and denatures a profound reality;
it masks the absence of a profound reality;
it has no relation to any reality whatsoever;
it is its own pure simulacrum.

unquote

jean baudrillard, from simulacra and simulation
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terry, modified 27 Days ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
from the oxherding pictures, kakuan shien as interpreted by d t suzuki:


​​​​​​​VII

The Ox Forgotten, Leaving the Man Alone


graphics7
The dharmas are one and the ox is symbolic. When you know that what you need is not the snare or set-net but the hare or fish, it is like gold separated from the dross, it is like the moon rising out of the clouds. The one ray of light serene and penetrating shines even before days of creation.
Riding on the animal, he is at last back in his home,
Where lo! the ox is no more; the man alone sits serenely.
Though the red sun is high up in the sky, he is still quietly dreaming,
Under a straw-thatched roof are his whip and rope idly lying. 
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terry, modified 27 Days ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
for example, the fashion industry, not content with ever more distressed jeans that simulate the effects of hard use and penury far beyond anything actual poor people would consider wearing, is now introducing simulated dirt...
genaro, modified 27 Days ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 60 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
I struggle to untangle learning sign, grasping sign, conterpart sign and more besides. (ok that's a diff context) the problem being that we make ourr own meanings of other people words.

"as a culture we tend to mistake the sign for the real"

IMHO we mistake words for reality more often.  Never met heidegger myself. I know i filter stuff sometimes it's by choice.

Simulacra .... Please don't go all Matrix, pleasse....

Can't we just follow the great  to mega therion and say 'manifestation implies illiusion' and be done with it?

There's no direct perepction, 'first access' via a sense door is already processed, bigly.

genaro, modified 27 Days ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 60 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
i promise never to try using that quote button again.
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terry, modified 27 Days ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
(cut and paste, painless...)

see you and raise...

(once again, bra, our society is crumbling fast...the child playing at the seashore hasn't noticed the wave bearing down yet...semi-seriousness is indicated)


more baudrillard, op cit:


Ethnology brushed up against its paradoxical death in 1971, the day when the Philippine government decided to return the few dozen Tasaday who had just been discovered in the depths of the jungle, where they had lived for eight centuries without any contact with the rest of the species, to their primitive state, out of the reach of colonizers, tourists, and ethnologists. This at the suggestion of the anthropologists themselves, who were seeing the indigenous people disintegrate immediately upon contact, like mummies in the open air.
In order for ethnology to live, its object must die; by dying, the object takes its revenge for being "discovered" and with its death defies the science that wants to grasp it.

Doesn't all science live on this paradoxical slope to which it is doomed by the evanescence of its object in its very apprehension, and by the pitiless reversal that the dead object exerts on it? Like Orpheus, it always turns around too soon, and, like Eurydice, its object falls back into Hades.

It is against this hell of the paradox that the ethnologists wished to protect themselves by cordoning off the Tasaday with virgin forest. No one can touch them anymore: as in a mine the vein is closed down. Science loses precious capital there, but the object will be safe, lost to science, but intact in its "virginity." It is not a question of sacrifice (science never sacrifices itself, it is always murderous), but of the simulated sacrifice of its object in order to save its reality principle. The Tasaday, frozen in their natural element, will provide a perfect alibi, an eternal guarantee. Here begins an antiethnology that will never end and to which Jaulin, Castaneda, Clastres are various witnesses. In any case, the logical evolution of a science is to distance itself increasingly from its object, until it dispenses with it entirely: its autonomy is only rendered even more fantastic - it attains its pure form.

The Indian thus returned to the ghetto, in the glass coffin of the virgin forest, again becomes the model of simulation of all the possible Indians from before ethnology. This model thus grants itself the luxury to incarnate itself beyond itself in the "brute" reality of these Indians it has entirely reinvented - Savages who are indebted to ethnology for still being Savages: what a turn of events, what a triumph for this science that seemed dedicated to their destruction!

Of course, these savages are posthumous: frozen, cryogenized, sterilized, protected to death, they have become referential simulacra, and science itself has become pure simulation. The same holds true at Cruesot, at the level of the "open" museum where one museumified in situ, as "historical" witnesses of their period, entire working-class neighborhoods, living metallurgic zones, an entire culture, men, women, and children included - gestures, languages, customs fossilized alive as in a snapshot. The museum, instead of being circumscribed as a geometric site, is everywhere now, like a dimension of life. Thus ethnology, rather than circumscribing itself as an objective science, will today, liberated from its object, be applied to all living things and make itself invisible, like an omnipresent fourth dimension, that of the simulacrum. We are all Tasadays, Indians who have again become what they were - simulacral Indians who at last proclaim
the universal truth of ethnology.

We have all become living specimens in the spectral light of ethnology, or of antiethnology, which is nothing but the pure form of triumphal ethnology, under the sign of dead differences, and of the resurrection of differences. It is thus very naive to look for ethnology in the Savages or in some Third World - it is here, everywhere, in the metropolises, in the White community, in a world completely cataloged and analyzed, then artificially resurrected under the auspices of the real, in a world of simulation, of the hallucination of truth, of the blackmail of the real, of the murder of every symbolic form and of its hysterical, historical retrospection - a murder of which the Savages, noblesse oblige, were the first victims, but that for a long time has extended to all Western societies.

But in the same breath ethnology grants us its only and final lesson, the secret that kills it (and which the Savages knew better than it did): the vengeance of the dead.

The confinement of the scientific object is equal to the confinement of the mad and the dead. And just as all of society is irremediably contaminated by this mirror of madness that it has held up to itself, science can't help but die contaminated by the death of this object that is its inverse mirror. It is science that masters the objects, but it is the objects that invest it with depth, according to an unconscious reversion, which only gives a dead and circular response to a dead and circular interrogation.
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terry, modified 27 Days ago.

RE: striking out

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genaro said:

"There's no direct perepction, 'first access' via a sense door is already processed, bigly."



try consider the idea that sense-perception is actually quite direct, but that your attention is turned to simulacra so you are not aware of the world around you, at all...

in fact, you have been conditioned to believe that there is no real world of direct perception, that the senses are all pre-processed...so you are only aware of the "processing," the conditioning, the interpretation of events and not the events themselves...

this is the world of desire, of the will to power clouding the mind...one sees only tools and weapons on a background of struggling for advantage...


the other day I was on my way to ocean view from hawi going through kona and there happened to be an awesome sunset going down over kailua bay...I was thinking of pulling over just to glow with it when I noticed all along the road people had pulled over to watch the sunset...that made me glow all by itself...


​​​​​​​terry
genaro, modified 27 Days ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 60 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
"our society is crumbling fast..."  ... these are the end times! kali yuga in full play!  i blame the @internet.

Re JB:
have you read 'the lottery' by jorge luis borges (in the collection 'ficcionnes' translated into english as 'labyrinths') ?
JB in your quote also concocts 'the museum': a striking parallel with 'the library' from the same book (museum has all possible people, library all possible books)

BTW that prose is a bit overworked i'd like to opine, to the point of nearly obscuring the meaning.

if you like, knowledge is circular, or relative, and tainted by context. does anyone really have a problem with that?
is that startling in any way?

is anthropology racist? surely not? it's scientific after all ;-(  
didn't a lot of 'savages' (sic) just tell the ethnologists some stories to keep them happy/ get rid of them, making the studies relate to the perpertrators gullibility?

yes indeed science is not as much fun as mysticism, or alien conspiracy theories, but i have my tinfoil hat ready for when they come to ethnologise us lot. these are the end times. and that's fine.

had to check this:
​​​​​​​
simulacrum (ˌsɪmjʊˈleɪkrəm) or simulacrenpl -cra (-krə)
1. any image or representation of something
2. a slight, unreal, or vague semblance of something; superficial likeness
[C16: from Latin: likeness, from simulāre to imitate, from similis like]

yup that pretty much sums up anything i'm aware of.
genaro, modified 27 Days ago.

RE: striking out

Posts: 60 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
perception is 'quite direct'

​​​​​​​i rest my case m'lord

Breadcrumb