Different practices, different enlightenment?

Jake Frankfurt Middenhall, modified 3 Months ago.

Different practices, different enlightenment?

Posts: 94 Join Date: 9/12/18 Recent Posts
Let´s say there are two practitioners, X and Y.
X reached enlightenment thru Vipassana.
Y reached enlightenment thru Fire Kasina practice.
We know both of those practice are conducive to enlightenment when practiced digilently, my question is: ¿Could there be a different  "taste" in the quality of the enlightenment of both practitioners?
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

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Better question. What is enlightment? 
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

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MCTB first path.
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Tommy M, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

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Jake Frankfurt Middenhall:
Let´s say there are two practitioners, X and Y. X reached enlightenment thru Vipassana. Y reached enlightenment thru Fire Kasina practice. We know both of those practice are conducive to enlightenment when practiced digilently, my question is: ¿Could there be a different  "taste" in the quality of the enlightenment of both practitioners?


Firstly, "enlightenment" is a big word that's loaded with different meanings for different people, so it's useful to define your usage here.

There are myriad entrances to, and forms of "enlightenment" so it's not helpful to think of it as one 'thing'.

The techniques themselves are more like 'keys'. Not all keys will fit in all doors. Some keys will fit in a door, but won't unlock it. Some keys even work for some people, but don't work for others! Probably not the best analogy, I know, but hopefully it points to something useful.
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

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Hi Tommy, thank you for your input. My definition of enlightenment? As we are in the dharmaoverground forum, i would define enlightenment as MCTB first path.

"Some keys even work for some people, but don't work for others!"

I´m not sure about that.

My interest in this question arises from Daniel Ingram claims of vipassana and fire kasina practitioners having different characteristics while on retreat. Vipassana practitioners described as being more "edgy", and fire kasina practitioners "weirder but more fun". So i wonder if those differences hold after enlightenment.
George S, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

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There's only one way to find out ...
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

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Thanks for the suggestion George!. Yes i plan to double my practice, so i get at least 6 hours of fire kasina a day, and maybe i involve some noting along with it.
However i wonder if even if i get 1st path soon (i hope), i won´t have an answer to my question. O well, it´s fine i guess.
George S, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

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I'm guessing that if your experience is weird and fun before enlightenment then it will be weird and fun after enlightenment :-)
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

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I would think that as well.
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Tommy M, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

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Jake Frankfurt MiddenhallMy interest in this question arises from Daniel Ingram claims of vipassana and fire kasina practitioners having different characteristics while on retreat. Vipassana practitioners described as being more "edgy", and fire kasina practitioners "weirder but more fun". So i wonder if those differences hold after enlightenment.

The simple answer: No, those characteristics are directly related to the practices themselves and the way in which attention is trained by them. They don't "hold after enlightenment", because they don't even "hold" after a few days or weeks of leaving the retreat.
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Jake Frankfurt Middenhall, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

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In mctb, Daniel wrote: "However, if they plunge into the fast and harsh vibratory experiences of insight practice without the soothing effects of concentration practice to help them stay somewhat grounded, the student can be a bit like someone who has taken a small dose (or a big dose in the worst cases) of LSD or drunk way too much coffee. I spent the first five years of my practice giving only a moderate amount of attention to the samatha jhanas and I now realize that this was probably an error."

This is interesting, because that "red bull" quality is still present in some dry insight workers even after 4th path, Daniel and Frank Yang coming to my mind.

  
Martin, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

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Jake Frankfurt Middenhall
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"Some keys even work for some people, but don't work for others!"

​​​​​​​ I´m not sure about that.


I'm pretty sure Tommy is right here. My confidence is partially based on my own experience and partially based on hearing many experienced teachers say the same thing. It's a good thing to know, as it can save fiddling around at the door with the wrong key for years and years.
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

Posts: 94 Join Date: 9/12/18 Recent Posts
My personal opinion is that there are practices conducive to enlightenment and others that don´t. Some of the practices conducive to enlightenment are Kasina and Vipassana practice (seal of approval from the visuddimagga). I would think everybody that practices any of those practices with enought intensity over certain period of time would get enlightened. Daniel described how in retreat, practitioners of both types of meditation ( kasina and vipassana) went thru the insight stages in a mechanical and predictable fashion, independent of their talent or meditative experience. There may be exceptions of course.

This doesn´t mean that some practices aren´t better fit for certain characters. Even in the visuddhimagga you can find different kasina objects, according to different temperaments.
George S, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

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In my not so humble opinion, the fastest path to enlightenment is to figure out what enlightenment could possibly be ... it's a matter of exhausting the mind's capacity to search for seemingly better alternatives XD
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

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"In my not so humble opinion, the fastest path to enlightenment is to figure out what enlightenment could possibly be ... it's a matter of exhausting the mind's capacity to search for seemingly better alternatives " - Bob Marley 

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George S, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

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"Easy skanking" - Ludwig Wittgenstein
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

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I still haven't heard a workable definition of what is being referred to as enlightenment.  Since reference is made to MCTB, I will quote from MCTB2:
Rather, I define awakening as permanently eliminating the basic perceptions that either duality or unity is the answer, and thus attaining to permanent realizations that are unshakable within the limits of biology. Awakening has nothing whatsoever to do with how things manifest and everything to do with basic understanding of those things.” (Pg. 62)
With the simple exception of clearly perceiving sensations occurring now and seeing through the illusion of a separate, continuous individual, nearly all remaining dreams relating to awakening, however beautiful, are problematic to some degree. This basic principle of this is it is essential to practice, as it focuses attention on the here and now, and happens to be true.” (pg. 315 )
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Understanding and seeing through are the operant conditions in my view. Any practice that can produce them is fine. In the end, there is no difference. Life won't let you fake these conditions.
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Noah D, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

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Just responding to the original post with a couple thoughts.  I think its more relevant what each person's prior conditioning/situation is.  This will determine what they "get" out of the initial cessation.  Some people have a deeper & broader benefit than others. 

I also think that their paradigm/concepts/language will effect their interpretation of the benefit they get.  Like some people are more into "my emotions don't change but my relationship-with/grasping-at them does"; others say "my grasping actually IS my anger/desire & that reduced"; others say "it's more about bare perception changes than it is about the contents of experience or the personality"; other say "it's more about my *sense* of self even if it's hard to point to something in direct experience."  These various descriptions might relate to different teachers they studied with or books they've read or whatever.  

So this will all combine - different people, with different frameworks, interpreting legitimately different depths of realization (even if all occur through the gateway of the 1st cessation).
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Ni Nurta, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Different practices, different enlightenment?

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From kasina practices I only did sun(set) kasina.
Not sure if it gives enlightenment but definitely a lot of light got to my eyes XD

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