Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

Trevor Beach, modified 8 Months ago.

Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Hello, I am a student of Pemako Buddhism and I'd like to start a thread for pragmatic dharma practices in the vajrayana tradition.  My goal is to share what practices and insights my sangha and I have found useful for deepening and stabilizing the experience of selfless awareness.  All of us are lay people focused on attaining full and permanent liberation from self-based confusion in this life while living in modern Western society. The practice itself is tantra yoga with a focus on guru yoga and various types dynamic concentration. 

For more information on the Pemako view of tantra:
https://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2020/10/open-secrets-of-tantric-yoga.html?m=1&fbclid=IwAR3Xo4cZO3Fss3_0A_-oUeoKDk86NIrUkKDE6TJjzHSvEP-1QZj-gomQhYg

For more information on Dynamic Concentration:
https://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/search?q=dynamic+concentration

An example of Dynamic Concentration practice: 
https://youtu.be/-gTZdelf72w

Here are a couple examples of how we practice Guru Yoga: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vylRKE2UKLk

https://youtu.be/Xs-D39gi6BA
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Comments and questions for the purpose of constructive discussion are more than welcome, as is sharing of your own experience and practices!
Trevor Beach, modified 7 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Here's another few guided meditations on recognizing our own selfless buddha nature.

By Kim Rinpoche, pointers to the nature of mind: https://youtu.be/0c8S_UaGWDs

By Lama Karl, a presentation on Avalokiteshvara: https://youtu.be/-aEw3bZVLvo

By myself, recognizing bodhicitta in daily life: https://youtu.be/4mW3juQkpkA
Sam Gentile, modified 7 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Thank you Trevor! Is your topic restricted then to Pemako Buddhism?
Oskar Aas, modified 7 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Sam
 think this is meant as a thread about pragmatic Varjayana buddhism. Meaning, openness and transparacy about practice, and its fruit from a varjayana point of view. About pragmatism in Dharma check out this article: http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-core-features-of-pragmatic-dharma.html.

Traditionally there is more secrecy in Varjayana, thats why this emphasis on pragmatism, to open up a bit. So anything you feel is hitting the mark on this, please do share for everyones benefit. The only teacher  I know of though that seem to have a similar openness about his varjayana practice is Daniel Brown, so Pemako is in my view biggest on the scene in that regard. But I would personally be happy to hear of others as well and I think this is what Trevor meant emoticon 

- Oskar 
Oskar Aas, modified 7 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Lovely account of how insight into emptiness develop, by Garcehn Rinpoche and comment by Kim Thubten Lingpa:

https://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2021/06/garchen-rinpoche-about-bhumis.html?fbclid=IwAR3lAdsj1LjcZVDhLfUiktEUy75Y7y-Iwc7b4NrWiLpVcZjwknA11LQPc4E
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Not two, not one, modified 7 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Nice stuff.  Thanks Trevor and Oskar.  I have read some of Kim's work before and always enjoy it, and I appreciate the extra resources and links from a variety of teachers.  I would be interested to know the typical practice routine expected of western students in the tradition.  For example - a weekly class for an hour, and then 15 minutes a day at home, or what exactly?  And from this, what kind of progress is expected?  

Also, are there supplementary exercises to regulate the body and cultivate zest and happiness (first six stages of Anapanasati), or is this part of the transition from external tantra to internal tantra and bodhicitta?  And if it's not too many questions ...  do you think bodhicitta connects to formless realms ( compassion connecting to the base of boundless space, and rejoicing connecting to the base of boundless consciousness)?

Feel free to answer just one question.  Or to ignore them all.  emoticon
Oskar Aas, modified 7 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Hi!

 - I would be interested to know the typical practice routine expected of western students in the tradition.  For example - a weekly class for an hour, and then 15 minutes a day at home, or what exactly?  And from this, what kind of progress is expected?  

 You mean in Pemako especially? I think it varies, how you living situation, family and other responsibilites etc.. I can only speak for myself and then maybe other pitch in and tell about their practice which would be great emoticon Also feel free to check out this book, there are accounts on how progress happen in this tradition https://www.pemakobuddhism.com/35532, hopefully this will be updated as it is a bit old, and alot has happened since then. 

For me its usually always a morning and a evening sit. Usually Rainbow body yoga in the morning (a set of tantric exercices which requires empowerment) and some Guru yoga, boddhicitta, vipashyna, dynamic consentraion or deiti practice in the evening. Usually I fit in more sessions that that a day too, and there is of course in-between session work, like breaks, on the subway etc.. which for me is usually mantras or vizualisations, or contemplating boddhicitta, and not forget: spinning my prayer wheel when watching TV!

About progress, there is better accounts in the book than what I can give you. But basically you work first on purifying the whole central channel which has 13 knots, aka bhumi openings. Then purifying the surrounding layers of those knots or chacras, which is bhumi perfections. 
Everyknot opening/shift is irreversible, your mind litterarily changes permanently. There is less selfing, like the notion of self, me-ness and otherness get thinner and sometimes drops of completely. Also there is purifications of emotions. For me these two are inseperable, if the "I" knot pops, so does the emotional baggage connected to the knot, you wont have one and not the other I think, not to mention boddhicitta. 
So put easily, more and more clear mind, less and less heavy emotions. 
When 10 knot are opened and purified, you reach exhaustion of all phenomena, buddhahood. After that starts the practice of purifying 11-13th, which I think is strictly ati yoga/ Dzogchen. 

There is a lot to say about each shift too, but it also varies between people I think. I could write more about it but not today emoticon 

- Also, are there supplementary exercises to regulate the body and cultivate zest and happiness (first six stages of Anapanasati), or is this part of the transition from external tantra to internal tantra and bodhicitta?  

zest and Anapanasati are not something I am familiar with sorry, not sure if I understood this question etiher? 
About external tantra to internal tantra and boddhicitta you could check out this article on how we view external and internal: https://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2020/10/open-secrets-of-tantric-yoga.html?fbclid=IwAR0RVo_UDJgu3Q6mUxi_fegXWmES1KEDbEydNvJ72iMPaEk32k3Za5J6jus
We have some categorizations of levels of tantra in terms of generation and completion stage, but its not that explicit and I am not sure if there are sources of it outside the sangha. My experience is that the transittion from outer "building the deity" to becomming the deity, happens by itself naturally as you progress and purify the mind. But I have not read much about how this is done traditionally, so cant say too much about it for now..

Boddhicitta how I understand it can be practices relatively and absolutely. This is not separate from deity practice, but I guess clarifcations are necessary to help the student, essentially though they are the same. Also "absolute" boddhicitta has for me been pointed out, it requires some stable recognition and since I dont have that I rarely practice it/it rarely happnes, so mostly relative aspect. 

- And if it's not too many questions ...  do you think bodhicitta connects to formless realms ( compassion connecting to the base of boundless space, and rejoicing connecting to the base of boundless consciousness)?

Yes absolutely, heartmind that includes every sentient being means also other realms. My logic tells me that if emptiness is true, its true of any realm, needless to say if you realize emptiness of one realm, you realize emptiness of any realm, make sense? 

Hope this was helpfull, you have good questions so nothing here to ignore, cheers emoticon  

Oskar










 
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Stirling Campbell, modified 7 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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I had 25 years(ish) in Nyingma/Dzogchen (Dudjom Lineage) with some side-trips into Kagyu. A number of empowerments, Lojong, Ngondro, Trekchod, Visualization/Guru Yoga, etc., but ALWAYS Dzogchen 1st as training and emphasis. Training in the recognition of, and resting IN Rigpa as much as possible is paramount.

Typical practice was just a weekly dharma talk with sit, and 20-40 minutes a day. For a 100,000 repetitions (couple years) about 30 minutes of Ngondro. 

IMHO for the "pragmatic" practictioner, the most important practice is simply Dzogchen with the aid of a realized teacher to check in with. Good to try the other major teachings, but the depth depends on your obscurations. Those with complex (m)inds will find complex trainings and be given complex instruction.

There ARE no hidden instructions that matter. Most of what is hidden is in plain sight, but goes unnoticed. It's in even the most "basic" dharma books. It's everywhere! emoticon
Trevor Beach, modified 7 Months ago.

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Hi Sam, 

"...I would be interested to know the typical practice routine expected of western students in the tradition.  For example - a weekly class for an hour, and then 15 minutes a day at home, or what exactly?  And from this, what kind of progress is expected?"

The daily practice is generally Rainbow Body Yoga (RBY), which is a series of tantric exercises that usually takes me around 45 min - 1 hour.  There are sangha meetings available every week, which includes practice and discussion. There are also several weekend (and longer) retreats that take place throughout the year, as well as guided sessions here and there.  Current progress of the sangha indicates that the dedicated student can go from "awakened" (1st kensho / stream entry / 1st bhumi) to fully liberated (10 open and perfected bhumis / exhaustion of reactive karma) in under 10 years. Progress is discussed openly, soberly and analytically among sangha members.

"Also, are there supplementary exercises to regulate the body and cultivate zest and happiness (first six stages of Anapanasati), or is this part of the transition from external tantra to internal tantra and bodhicitta?"

The different exercises of RBY directly address the tensions held by the subconsious mind.  When those tensions are released, the body is allowed to regulate itself properly (without you in the way).  The result of correct practice in Pemako is natural joyfulness and vitality, but the sensations of joy or bliss are not used as a support for concentration as with anapanasati.  Instead, Pemako Buddhism teaches one to recognize that one's own wakeful awareness is already joyful and full of potential.  Emphasis is placed on cultivating relative and absolute bodhicitta during all stages of practice.

"And if it's not too many questions ...  do you think bodhicitta connects to formless realms ( compassion connecting to the base of boundless space, and rejoicing connecting to the base of boundless consciousness)?"

Bodhicitta supports our connection to all realms, as no realms are separate from it :-)  Progress in insight and purification of the subconcious mind results in the development of a naturally clear and quiet mind.  The formless realms are also on the wheel of samsara, and so we practice to purify those aspects of our minds as well.
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Not two, not one, modified 7 Months ago.

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Thank you for the helpful replies.  I can see Rainbow Body Yoga is an important exercise for this practice.  Is there more information available on that, or do you have to learn it with instruction/empowerment from Kim (noting his statement that no one will be turned away for lack of funds).

Please note, I am not asking this is any judgemental way.  Just interested from a comparative dharma point of view.  

Metta

Malcolm 
Trevor Beach, modified 7 Months ago.

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Malcolm,

I see I replied to the wrong person earlier. Sorry about that! 

Because it utilizes diety mantras, RBY must be learned with empowerment.  You can find more info about it here: https://www.pemakobuddhism.com/26656

The exercises themselves range from visualization, breath manipulation and dynamic mantra chanting to ati yoga.

Many of the exercises learned *can* be performed without empowerment or without deity mantras, but of course they are much more effective if learned and performed properly.
Trevor Beach, modified 7 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Stirling, 

"I had 25 years(ish) in Nyingma/Dzogchen (Dudjom Lineage) with some side-trips into Kagyu. A number of empowerments, Lojong, Ngondro, Trekchod, Visualization/Guru Yoga, etc., but ALWAYS Dzogchen 1st as training and emphasis. Training in the recognition of, and resting IN Rigpa as much as possible is paramount."

That's awesome.  Training in recognizing rigpa is #1 priority in our practice as well.  The whole purpose of RBY is to consistently establish recognition of our basic nature and then to stabilize that recognition.

"IMHO for the "pragmatic" practictioner, the most important practice is simply Dzogchen with the aid of a realized teacher to check in with. Good to try the other major teachings, but the depth depends on your obscurations. Those with complex (m)inds will find complex trainings and be given complex instruction."

Agreed.  Fortunately, we have a very effective practice on dealing with those obscurations once recognition is established as well as several senior students and teachers to offer guidance and support.

"There ARE no hidden instructions that matter. Most of what is hidden is in plain sight, but goes unnoticed. It's in even the most "basic" dharma books. It's everywhere! emoticon"

For sure!
Oskar Aas, modified 3 Months ago.

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Very good discussion on Boddhicitta, what it is and how it develops along the path, and why it is so important especially in relation to the subtle body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbqaZdGH9kE&t=12s
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Chris Marti, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Isn't that Kim Katami in the YouTube video?
Oskar Aas, modified 3 Months ago.

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Yes? He is the founder of Pemako lineage.
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Chris Marti, modified 3 Months ago.

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We get periodic visits from folks who are students or devotees of Kim Katami's, previously from Open Heart Sanga, now from Pemako. These visits usually come in waves and feature more than one person. It appears to me to be organized activity.

Just noticing.
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This very moment, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Happy little waves coming in sets to dance on the shore of the DhO.  And then they retreat to the vast ocean of the buddhaverse from whence they came... only to return a few months later with a message such as " Some of us our Buddha's now " or " More of us are moving to even higher levels of Bhumihood"  Let us rejoice!!   ;)
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Siavash ', modified 3 Months ago.

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I think it would be better if they could limit their advertisements into just one thread, and not take too much bandwidth from the forum.
Oskar Aas, modified 3 Months ago.

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This thread is for all "pragmatic" varjayana, so not meant to be limited to only Pemako. If you know of other varjyana teachers then go ahead and post and let discussion flow. Only teacher I know of is Daniel Brown Phd, who also talks openly about attanments, mentioning having two people in his sangha who have reached Sangye. 

Can check out Vincent Horn article on pragmatic dharma, also Daniel Ingram is an excellent example. Though we are not in varjayana anymore.

​​​​​​​http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-core-features-of-pragmatic-dharma.html
Oskar Aas, modified 3 Months ago.

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Loads of good stuff from the Autumn retreat emoticon 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSWuZqDdFdQ&list=PLqTm9fV9DGhu4AhG90DgKZh9yT1de7WNE
George S, modified 3 Months ago.

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Tree looks lonely without its leaves
Will be back again next year
Hopefully
Oskar Aas, modified 3 Months ago.

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Article I found on Garchen Rinpoches account of the grounds and bhumis with Kim Rinpoches commentary:

​​​​​​​http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2021/06/garchen-rinpoche-about-bhumis.html
Oskar Aas, modified 3 Months ago.

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Discussion on cessation/nirodha from last autumn retreat. Kim and Helena discuss how cessations are in the beginning and then how they change as one reach further and further on the path. I also come across Venerable Thubten Chodron teachings on cessiation, its much more traditional and intellectual but I think it pretty good parts of it. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k_61NIwJuk).

Discussion on cessation/nirodha, Kim Rinpoche 21.10.2021.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fzPdMb8Vs4&t=17s
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Chris Marti, modified 3 Months ago.

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Oskar, if you post the same comments and links to multiple topics then you're spamming DhO. Please engage in interactive discussions on DhO topics other than the one topic you are allowed to post your Pamako information on - this one:

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/23257227

Thank you,

Chris
DhO Moderator
Oskar Aas, modified 3 Months ago.

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Aha, I didn't know. My bad.
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Oskar
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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For those who are interested in Vajrayana-ish and non-dual practices that do not require empowerments, Michael Taft teaches it in a very pragmatic way. It's mixed up with other influences. A lot is from Dzogchen and Mahamudra but some is from Hindu tantra, among other things, and of course from Shinzen Young who is Michael's main teacher. Michael has an introductory course that I think isn't that expensive, and a more expensive course (Reversing the Stack) with fewer participants. I wouldn't be able to afford it, but luckily there are sometimes scholarships available. He also leads (free) guided meditations on youtube every week. In collaboration with San Fransisco Dharma Collective, there's a death sangha on zoom every month for which you can buy tickets online. The Halloween death sangha is coming up. 

My practice fits the heading of this thread pretty well, I'd say. I don't follow any specific system, though, like several of you seem to do. I'm in Michael Taft's Reversing the Stack course part 3 and I attend teachings with Lama Lena pretty regularly, and with Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche sometimes, but I'm strongly influenced by Daniel Ingram and Shinzen Young, and by this forum, and I pragmatically use any dharma that resonates with my path at the moment. I find that the awakening process knows its own way and that it communicates. My main teacher is therefore the process itself. 
Oskar Aas, modified 3 Months ago.

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Hi Linda. One cannot practice Varjayana without empowerments, how I understand it that is the only thing that seperates varjayana from other mahayana traditions. I think I have recieved about 20 transmissions from Kim for various practices and deities. That being said not all practices in varjayana or Pemako does need empowerment, like 2pf, guru yoga, dynamic consentration. This is a pretty cool example on that: http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2019/05/the-first-person-who-opened-all-bhumis.html
Also the bhumi model, the path map used can be investigated by anyone interested and willing to put in the time. 

I like Lama Lena and have attended one of her online retreats, I think she has alot of good stuff on youtube too. I havent read everything of Ingrams book (its so big), but parts of it and which I liked (though not agreeng with everything) but I think the work he has done in the world of pragmatic dharma is really outstanding. At this point though, I am not that impressed by most modern teachers. I think many are somewhere on the path, but its very few have completely finnished it and thats whats most interesting to me these days. Also it can end up being distorted what they teach when they have had a couple of breakthrough and then they start teaching Dzogchen and mahamudra. 

I would really recommend Daniel Brown though, as a pragmatic varjayana teacher, he has alot of good stuff and I think profound boddhicitta. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 3 Months ago.

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That's why I said Vajrayana-ish. Works just fine. Very pragmatic. Personally I wouldn't call it pragmatic if it requires empowerment, but it's okay to have different opinions about that. I'm totally fine with others calling it pragmatic. 

I'm reading Daniel Brown and using some of his free resources. I know people who go to Daniel Brown reatreats, but I can't afford it. Michael Taft goes to his retreats. 

Michael Taft has at least 40-50 years of experience, and I trust his judgement. Daniel has saved my ass when I really needed it, so I trust him too. There really aren't that many people around whom you can reach out to when shit hits the fan in a magickal way - people who would take you seriously, let alone know how to help you. 
Oskar Aas, modified 3 Months ago.

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Ah, ok. Yes I kind of agree with you there. But it still varies how much openes there is from varjayana lineages. Some seem to keep everything to themselves, while others share quite a bit like Pemako or Brown, thats why I think its pragmatic because they keep as much as they can open. Also writing on various topic that many teachers today dont dare ro touch (like the shitfaced monkey gurus out there being lineage holderd and everything) and most inportantly being crystal clear that the goal is full exhaustion or enlightenment is actially way more rare than one might think. 

I talked to a guy that join Pemako for a while that had reached 2 or 3 path, and Ingram had been of great help to him. Like called him when he worked on his SE,  so thats just lovely that a teacher does. And yes, someone to has the know how is gold to have around!
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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Yeah, I can relate to how you reason in calling it pragmatic. I wouldn't go so far as to give others crap for not sharing, though. That's the premises under which they have been empowered to teach, and it's also about risk management, according to what they have been taught.

When I took refuge I promised to go for full Buddhahood, so I'll do that or die trying (and continue after death if possible). I can't see myself ever proclaiming that I'm done, though, because I believe that as long as I'm alive, there's probably still stuff to work on. And I enjoy the practice anyway, so I have no problem with that. 

Yeah, that's awesome. 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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"give others crap for not sharing".. Sorry I should have been clearer here. with shitfaced monkey gurus I mean guys like Trungpa or Sogyal Rinpoche, which to me sounds like the perfect way of one person ruining a whole tradition and scaring loads of people in the process. People and lineages having their code of secrecy and stuff is no problem and completely up to them, so sorry about that. 
Oskar Aas, modified 3 Months ago.

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I think Brown has this scolarship you can apply for if you cant afford it. I saw those prices and its quite high yes. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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Yes, he has, but it's still over my budget. But that's okay. I have what I need at the moment. Thanks anyway for sharing. 
Oskar Aas, modified 3 Months ago.

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Also talking out load about ones attainment is very rare in modern varjayana, though traditionally its done all the time. 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Something Kim often talk about is how over time teachings of dharma gets weaker. Like there will be this wave in history when big figures like Hakuin or Padmasabhava came, and then over the years there will be less of a result from practice they introduced, and more and more dogma. I think this is how reaction like pragmatic dharma happens, because people dont longer find the teachings they are looking for because teachers themselves are not realized enough to sufficently help their students.  In varjayana this problem is taken head on with Tertons and termas, which are meant to be super fitting for this time or place, when other dharma in the population doesnt "work" as it used to. I think know the Aro Gter lineage, and Rantashree Rinpoche as well as Kim Katami, all teach their own mind termas, would be interesting to see if there are others as well. 
So I think its important to note that when it comes to dharma its all about realization of mind nature, and how to do that, and not get tangled up in too much other things, like culture, traditions, custums and o forth. 

http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2021/10/how-liberation-works.html
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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Lama Lena says something similar but also almost the opposite, depending on how you interpret it. Rather than talking about more and more dogma, she talks about how the transmission gets watered down because it's farther and farther from the original. She also says that there's at least ideally a sweetspot when the dharma is spread so much that it's easier to access it before it is watered down. Whether or not pragmatic teachings belong to the sweetspot or the watering down is not so easy to tell, I guess. She does warn about "dharma rumors" that are spread by people outside the original traditions. On the other hand, she doesn't look down on more experimental approaches. She just chooses to teach the traditional teachings because we are at risk of loosing the knowledge. Personally, I'm experimental at heart, so I don't think I would be able to pass on traditions the way she does. 

She also says that when the dharma has been forgotten, a new Buddha will eventually show up and turn the wheel. 

Personally, I think the dharma will always be available in some form for those who are sufficiently tuned in. 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Yeah, one can feel this when attending different teaching how strong the blessings are. I think this depends on 1) the teacher in questions realization, meaning how complete of a transmission he/she can give and 2) how "fresh" it is. I guess if the lineage is unbroken, it should not be a problem though, but it does feel quite different when it has been handed down for generations compared to terma teachings from this decade.  

Similar to being "watered down" is the notion of how it used to be taught when it was fresh and how it is taught say 500 years later. A friend in mine in the sangha said that traditionally the teacher would give teaching from the top and then go dowm finding out this way where the student was, like starting with pointing out instructions, if the student didnt get it, guru yoga, if not that worked, prostration or fournoble truths or something along those lines, maybe others know more about this than I do. I am not sure if it always was like that but its something to think about, but anyway, now its completely the other way around which is curious.
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Or not always the other way around, I guess this also depends on the teacher, as you mentioned Lama Lena she is clearly an exception and there are others too.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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I would love it if teachings were more often given with the most advanced pointers first. 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Article on meaning of enlightenment and shortcommings that can come about in secular buddhism.

http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2021/10/full-enlightenment-vs-delusions-of.html
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Months ago.

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Jeepers Oskar, I read that link. Sometimes it seems as if being a member of Pemako involves a lot of clinging, and not so much sympathetic joy.  Where does this desire to proselytize and run down other teachers come from?  

I said before vive la difference - but the stuff that you linked to (reproduced below) is not different.  It is just bog standard cult-like behaviour.

A word of advice - the noble eightfold path is a fabrication.  If you get absorbed in a fabrication of any kind as a final 'truth', there is the risk of spiritual bypassing and the effects that typically result.  The material below reads just like somebody who is clinging to some of the formless realms. 

​​​​​​​Wake up! 

With love, believe it or not.   - Malcolm
 

"I didn't have the patience to listen all of it but it did catch my ear Shinzen Young saying that he doesn't think doneness, i.e. buddhahood is possible. Sigh... another secular buddhist who lots of people look up to who is so unripe in his realisations that he directly contradicts himself with mahayana and vajrayana masters, while claiming to be a proponent of both. Stephen Batchelor, Culadasa Yates, Young... all singing the same tune. Two-three years before his passing Culadasa even admitted that sutrayana "doesn't go far enough", after 50 years of practicing it.

"It is (much) better than nothing that there are teachers out there who have had one or few awakenings but compared to any nonphysical (or physical) mahasiddha, all these people are incredibly unripe. Then they in their "wisdom" of "many decades" of meditation with all the "top" teachers who themselves were unripe draw these genious conclusions... I remember Batchelor state, after his 8 years of being a gelugpa scholar monk, that guru yoga is bogus! See Why I Didn't Quit Guru Yoga.

"It gets mindbogglingly stoopid when folks who didn't learn to practice well throw away the baby with the bath water, just like that. And that's another reason why tantric guru yoga is so precious because these silly conclusions end right there in the presence of someone who *is* done, a mahasiddha.

"People of the world should really learn about the correct practice of tantric guru yoga and call masters - mahasiddhas - to them. Buddha, Jesus, Guru Rinpoche, Milarepa etc, any will do. It is easiest and simplest practice with no need for empowerment or any type of preparation other than being open to receive. It is easier than shamatha, quicker to learn than jhanas, no need to learn long prayers or mantras in foreign languages, and most importantly presence of a guru reveals our basic state or buddhanature, everytime without exception which is what jhanas or shamatha meditation can never accomplish. This is the gift of tantra that anyone anywhere anytime can make use of and receive. And importantly, this is also a way to get beyond unripe stages, where people who don't hang around with mahasiddhas get stuck. This is a way to raise the bar of dharma in the world.

"People need to know that it is indeed possible to get "done", fully purified, entirely sinless, fully enlightened, to become a living buddha, just like generations of mahayana and vajrayana masters have said!"
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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I was hoping he would have worked through at least some of that by now. 

​​​​​​​This is exactly why I'll never say I'm done. 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Linda, people used to say they are done emoticon&nbsp; Among people of this time, I think Garchen Rinpoche says so explicitly that he has finnished his purification, will see if I can find the video for you.<br /><br />http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2021/04/claims-of-enlightenment-made-by-ancient.html
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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Sure, but it just seems safer not to jump to any conclusions, as those who do tend to get awfully unskillful. If I ever get there, I hope it will be reflected in my behavior. 

Edited to clarify: I don't have any issues with Garchen Rinpoche saying that he has completed his purification. My point is rather that I deeply respect that he doesn't need to boast about it or badmouth other teachers in order to market himself. 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Of course, you should not say stuff like this if you are not sure, I think then its quite obvious you are not there! This is a quote by Padmasambhava on what it means to be certain: 

“Gain certainty in the fact that since the very beginning your own mind is the awakened state of buddhahood. Gain certainty in the fact that all phenomena are the magical display of your mind. Gain certainty in the fact that the fruition is present in yourself and is not to be sought elsewhere. Gain certainty in the fact that your master is the buddha in person. Gain certainty in the fact that the nature of view and meditation is the realization of the buddhas. To gain such confidence you must practice!”

And here is the video with Garchen Rinpoche, I havent seen the whole video but a friend from the sangha posted this part some months ago, maby will see it later, I think his precense is some of the most astonishing I have seen, and if I get the chance to see him I will: 

"Now I am completely purified, ready to die..." at 49 minuts. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcfEJwQflJI
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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Have you ever seen Garchen Rinpoche spew his contempt over other teachers? I haven't. Garchen Rinpoche isn't questioned here. 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Sorry Linda, I mentioned  Garchen Lama because he is an example of someone who talks about his attainments as you mentioned this, but many subject and things get entangeled.
He doesnt talk bad about people no, but I remember him saying that when he came out of prison no lamas dared giving refuge vows to people in Tibet because of fear of the Chinese, which is a way of saying something about current situation, and a way of "putting down" some people (in this case other lamas) if you chose to read it like that.

I dont read Kim article the way you and Malcom does. Its not a matter of getting others down to pull yourself up. Longchenpa have a poem that is called something like  "why I am depressed" where he talks about the present situation of Dharma in his time, and as I mentioned many others have done this too. Do you think that was badmouthing or constructive from his point of view?
​​​​​​​
If its too the point, like: you lack realization and your view is incorrect, and what you say; that enlightnment is not possible(!) then to me it is very constructive to point out that that is a problem.  If I had been the student of Shinzen Young there would be a  chance that I didnt believe it was possible to end my suffering, thats pretty serious mistake from a dharma teacher if you ask me. And him being a big figure in the world of dharma I can imagine that others adopt the same view. So no, I dont think this is problematic at all to point this out. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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It's obvious that you aren't a student of Shinzen Young, because if you were, you would know that he is very optimistic about ending suffering. 

Please don't uncritically buy second-hand information taken out of context. 

Also, do you really think that Garchen Rinpoche commenting on the sociopolitical circumstances is the same thing as Kim's polemics? I could think of a few differences... Just be careful, okay?
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Right, no I am not emoticon I think he said this in a guru viking podcast and that is where the respond came from. If he usually have a different view, then good.

Kim is more loud when it comes to his opinions, no doubt about that, but again I see this very differently than you as mentioned.

Thank you for your concern, I am not worried at all, I have known Kim for a long time and have no problem with his "eagerness". Again this is not really that special, and I would not even call it polemics, in that case many other teacher should be given the same verdict, as those I have menioned to you. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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I have had good conversations with Kim, so I'm not as worried as some people here are. I certainly agree with you that implying that he has forgotten to take his antipsychotic medicines was a personal attack that does not promote a fair discussion (I suspect that it was a case of paranoia on Ni Nurta's part, actually). I have seen lots of reactivity on all sides in earlier discussions, both from Kim and from people debating with him. There's a lot of baggage from discussions even further back in time. I don't have much of a problem per se with people being reactive.* I do find it problematic when people are unable to acknowledge their own reactivity. That seems to happen on all sides as well. If lack of reactivity becomes a matter of prestige, it seems to happen more often, so please be careful with that.

People use words very differently. You can't pick up a few sentence from someone and think you know what they mean. (Well, obviously one can, but one would be wrong. emoticon )


*) Edited to clarify: I find that clearing out habitual reactivity** is a major part of the practice, so of course remaining reactivity means that there is something to work on. I just don't think that's such a big deal, or at least I find it much more helpful not to make it a big deal. For most practicioners, even highly praised Rinpoches, some limit remains with regard to how much torture one can endure without at least some amount of deeply buried habitual reactivity arises. 

**) This does not at all mean that there can't be human feelings or even fierce responses. I'd say that there's an increase in the register available rather than the other way around. It's a freedom from limiting reactive patterns, a freedom to respond with more richness, nuance, spontaneity and presence. 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Linda. Thanks for clarifying, you make good points I think.
i have no problem with people being sceptic, asking question and so forth, I have been so myself many many times, and I know for sure that Kim has too, he has said so himself.
I have not spent much time on forums like these though I am aware of this history you mention, so posting an article I think makes several good points and then be met by saint and psychopath questioning and that med thing, is a bit shocking.
​​​​​Its a problem because even though they are off the chart and makes no sense, it still creates alot of fear in people, which entail that people reading can loose judment too and might chose to avoid the discussion, which could have helped them.

​​​​​​​About reaction, yeah its a big one.. is habitual fear reaction good ground for sober judment? Or is it something that distort it?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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I agree with you here. I have made the very same point. The heated discussions reproduce themselves because of mutual suspicion and defensiveness. It's sad that new members here find themselves in the crossfire just because they want to share what they have found helpful. I really hope that you will stay and that we will all manage to break the patterns that limit us. When you think about it, threads like this one are a goldmine in pointing out to all of us what habitual reactivity still limits our register of expression. 

I also think that some of the impression that people get from Kim has to do with cultural differences. Being a Scandinavian myself, I can see that he expresses himself in very Finnish ways. I suspect that Americans and Fins typically aren't exactly a match made in heaven when it comes to taken-for-granted norms of the nuances in social interaction, for instance. The contrast to oriental cultures is probably even greater. I checked him out on youtube during an earlier heated debate and I did not get psychopath vibes (I'm usually rather skilled in detecting them, if I do say so myself). He seemed like a rather typical Finnish dude to me, perhaps with some degree of neuro-atypicality as well (like me, so that's not meant as an insult; normality is overrated if you ask me). 

I have seen statements that he has made several years ago, though, that quite frankly had me bounce in my chair, because even though I'm really not often surprised by any human expression, that kind of (what appeared as) blunt arrogance did surprise me. I can see why people would get suspicious, having seen a lot of that, especially together with advertising transmissions for sale online, reportedly quality-tested by a homecooked method that can only be mastered by his own students. On the other hand, he is definitely neither the first nor the last one going through a phase of obnoxious cockiness on this forum or other dharma forums, and I like to think that we all continue to mature and shouldn't forever have to wear a cross for old mishaps. 

Personally I have my own subjective versions of seeing energies and imbalances and openings, and I find that the gaze from advanced practicioners is often notably different (probably at least partly because of something as banal as the widened scope of their visual field), so I don't find it so strange that one can develop that seeing into something that catches something, or that it can be more or less usefulI do question the absolute objectivity of the findings, though, because I think all seeing is in a sense visualization. I think we subconsciously uphold the consensual world by way of strong collective magick. Perceiving is creating. What we see - even if realized - isn't entirely free, but dependent on karma (including evolution). Humans have lots of shared karma. Smaller groups have shared karma too. Eventually even bhumis or other aspects of dharma maps (and there certainly are lots of different ones) need to be seen through as empty. 

​​​​​​​As for the complaints of spamming, I myself have often posted links to teachings that I have found helpful, and I have often recommended Michael Taft who is incredibly expensive for paying students. I guess the difference is that I usually only do it in my own log, as part of my own notes, or when someone asks for such links. Commersializing the dharma can be a hot potato per se, even though lots of people here (probably the majority?) are okay with paying for teachings. Kim is certainly not the only one trying to make a living from his teachings. He might be the only one that I have seen actually advertising for his own not free teachings at this forum, though, or at least the one closest to doing it. But honestly, even Michael Taft - who is generally very well respected here - welcomes his students to spread the word when he has developed a new course for which he charges money. I know that first-hand. That's the reality we live in, whether or not we like it. 

So I think there's a conflation of several different conditions that make people wary, and it often grows out of proportion. I don't think habitual fear-based reactions are good for much else than survival of the animal in us in life-threatening situations. This is not it. 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Oh, I am here to stay for a while, I started my own log you can check out if you like.  

I am also scandianavian, Norway emoticon 

You know these statements can all be tested, I can feel all these bhumi plates quite easy know from practice, iI know they are "storrage units" for karmic stuff as well as deluded perception, from my own investigstion and shifts from purifiying some of them. I know what is meant by a "shift" as we call it, and I know that he can percieve my insight as good and sometimes better than me because he has proven it several times when I was off in my own judgment. It can seem very strange never having heard about it, but remember one can figure it out oneself, all the info you need is out there and you can also ask pemako sangha people and they will be happy to share to the best of their ability. It has never been secretive or hidden. This is one of the anyoing fear reactions consequenses, that people dont bother to check. So one can say these things are arrogant, that mens aying this stuff is arrogant, or one could challenge the view, ask question and figure out. If it proves to be right, then there is no arrogance, just telling the truth you know, or you can try to prove it wrong emoticon 
The learning of sensing these things has takem him years, and he is incredible accurat, like its ridiculus (its much harder seeing shifts in others than in one self I think) Many of us in the sangha are practicing this and its fucking difficult skill. Also he doesnt do it on us anymore, because he wants us to learn it ourselves, so this is not an income for him really. And i didnt mind when it was because again very precise and helpfull for me. 

Yeah, maps are good because its helpfull to know where you are and what to do, everyone should use a map haha! but you are supposed to finnish it emoticon

Yes, money. I know he tried for a while living on donation but that didnt work in the west at all so one need to get paid if providing for a family..that being said, if one does not have money just that is ok, retreats can be joined anyway, or payment discussed to adjust ones paycheck, this has always been the case. Also there are hundreds of free videos on youtube and books that are free,when I did 2pf the teacher helping me said money was noo problem at all, and thats how I do it as well, so to be honest I struggle to see the money problem here.. 

thanks again for your thoughts, good stuff Linda, let me know if you visit oslo one day and we can meet upemoticon 




​​​​​​
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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I can feel the chakras. I can feel both the Tibetan set of chakras and the modern version of yoga chakras, even though they are incompatible. They are both very helpful for me. Oh, and I have felt the dantiens from Qigong too. And none of them is in any way absolute.  The Bhumi system is but one of many similar systems. They are all constructions. Still helpful, but as I see it, it's important not to reify them, and they are certainly not the entire truth. But great if they help you in your practice! That's good stuff! Powerful magick! That is NOT meant in any pejorative way, just to be clear. I see Tantra as a magickal practice, and I have heard Lama Lena saying something similar. I think that aspect of it serves insight because it illustrates how reality is constructed. When we can actively create versions of reality, then, hopefully, we can also unhook ourselves from buying into our previously taken-for-granted reality. That's not the same thing as dismissing conditions that are very real to people, though; that lacks compassion and is also misunderstanding the whole thing.  

It was Kim himself who said that his reading of photos was a technique that could be verified by his students only, in one of our dialogues, because they were the only ones who had learned the technique (naturally, since he developed it). And further back in time, he publically diagnosed a large number of respected teachers with that specific technique, making a point of how they were all not realized enough, whereas he himself was. He stopped doing that, thankfully, and I think that was a wise decision. That kind of jargon really didn't reflect well on him. I suspect he is one of those people who gives a better impression face-to-face than in writing online. From what you are telling me, he sounds decent, and he has been nothing but kind to me. I'm not impressed by how he has handled earlier discussions here, but I'm not impressed by how others handled them either. Personally, I prefer my trusted teachers to at least admit it when they are being reactive, and sadly that seems to be a rare quality. If someone fails to admit his own reactivity, I don't care how many Bhumis he has opened or how many Theravadan paths he has attained; the teacher-student relationship wouldn't do it for me. That rules out a lot of people. I can still learn from them, but only selectively. 

I think it's important not to uncritically buy into methods of certifying levels of realization which cannot be independently verified or falsified. That does however not mean that all such methods are cultlike and signs of someone being a psychopath. If you all find it helpful, then very cool! Personally, I find it interesting. It's just not at the top of my priority list. 

Yeah, I'm not in any position to blame him for making a living. I would have to blame most Western dharma teachers in that case, and I find blaming people very tiresome. 

I was guessing from your name that you were Norwegian. emoticon Norrköping, Sweden, here. I also stay a lot in Stockholm (or will do again when the covid situation calms down). Let me know if you come here too! 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Hmm, cool. I also have practice with dan tien in qi gong, and yes different systems. 

​​​​​​OK. I dont see it as magic at anymore, guru yoga, chakras and so forth has no mystism in it. When too much mystic happens I get hesitant actually.

​​​​​​​About the technique i posted a link about a lady that opened the whole central channel on her own, and had excellent understanding of the bhumis, no empowerment and no guidance from teacher. That is 13 openeing, which is not the same as 10 perfections, like not done or enlightened, a common missunderstanding, but pretty awesome still. Maybe kim wrote you wrong or there was missunderstanings but everyone should be able to use it just to make that clear.

I never had the oppurtunity to see that famous discission hehe, to be clear again, he never claimed himself to be enlightened there either. maybe he said he had 13 opened and then confusion happened, i dont know? But it can appeaer as such because not good enough explanatiom of the bhumi model and strong reactions. But probably best not to go into that discussions again haha 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Being a Scandinavian myself, I can see that he expresses himself in very Finnish ways<br /><br />- hehe, I probably should not say this, but I know he has been taking shit for not being a tibetan. I think its very good with western teachers, and necessary, this forum is to me a western respons to some of the cultural bagage that is not needed for proper practice, pragmatism. Everyone have buddhanature, being a finn, african, chinese or monkey, no difference at all, very very important!<br /><br />&nbsp;I did not get psychopath vibes.<br /><br />- Its discusting people saying this. I have known him and talked to him so much, that is one of the reasons why I say these reactions are fear based, because it so far fetched.. Also he has changed in accordance with his insights, no anxiety anymore I can tell for sure, you can check out resent videos and see if you notice a difference.&nbsp;<br /><br />Personally I have my own subjective versions of seeing energies and imbalances and openings, and I find that the gaze from advanced practicioners is often notably differen<br /><br />- Cool, how? I wrote a bit about this in my log. In my experience there are channels surrounding the eyes, that when purified let the eyes relax more. That seems to me to be the main reason why insights change the outlook of a person, and especially eyes though also posture and other biological things can change.<br /><br /><em>&nbsp;</em>I do question the absolute objectivity of the findings, though, because I think&nbsp;<em>all</em>&nbsp;seeing is in a sense visualization.<br /><br />- Its a very good point, and something I also have pondered alot. I know some zen teachers evaluate the debth of realization of a teacher based on his calligraphy which is really cool and hits the same point. In my experience, since this has been so central the last years I have got really hung up on energies, and the energies of people and places. Practice and shifts has made me much more positive to the objectiveness of this, though I certanly symphatize with the view you present.<br />Also if you try do Guru yoga with Yeshe Tsogyal or milarepa for a while and then change to Eckhart Tolle or Osho you will see the difference in a moment, like two different worlds.&nbsp;<br /> 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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I find it very unfair and saddening when people badmouth Daniel, so I can definitely sympathize. And Daniel has said stuff too earlier on that taken out of context sure makes him sound completely differently from the person I have seen in conversations. (Heh, who hasn't? Ever, I mean?)

I'm really glad to hear that his anxiety is gone. I have much less anxiety too. Much less reactivity. There was an abundance to begin with, though, so still lots to work with, lol. Sometimes I forget how much has actually been released. It's good to remind myself of what I used to struggle with.

Lots of cool points. I appreciate our conversation. I would like to reply about how I see energies, but right now I'm very tired, and trying to put things into words is draining for me even when I'm not tired to begin with. Let's come back to it some other time. Sleep well! 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Mhm, yes. Like we are in this together, suffering, easy to forget and then we start run each other down, ruining it for everyone really. I do it and others do, so agree with you there.

Awesome Linda, gogogo emoticon

Sure, energies are super intersting and important. If you like I have written some in myblog, and intend to do more there if you wanna reply there? Then I have an excuse to remember to write about it there. I also have written some about how I have worked with my anxiety, and I think something that would be cool to explore with others as well as it seems to be common for people in this time. This thread was supposed to be about pragmatic varjayana and then it exploded lol
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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 Where does this desire to proselytize and run down other teachers come from?

- Its not a matter of running down other teachers, its a respond to teachers proponing half-way dharma, teachniques that doesnt go all the way and then saying it doesnt exist, this is super contradictory to dharma teachings isnt it? Its not uncommon how I see it that teachers point out shortcomming like this in the world of dharma, like Hakuin is one of the first that comes to mind. So I dont see a problem really, but the floor is open to discuss this.  

It is just bog standard cult-like behaviour. 

- Gosh, well Culadasa Yates is the one that was busted for takin in prostitutes, not Kim... same goes for a couple of others he has been harsh too, like Sogyal Rinpoche or Trungpa. I think one should be careful tossing out the cult name-calling in this context.    

-  The material below reads just like somebody who is clinging to some of the formless realms. 

Curious, how does you read a text and see that its a matter of clinging to a formless realm?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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Onesidedly pointing out other people's failings - and/or what sounds like failings when decontectualized - to aggressively promote One True Path while endulging in wrong speech and conceit... well, that's not the awakening I'm going for. 
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Months ago.

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Yeah, life is an ever unfolding complex and interdependent process.  Or indeed, like a box of chocolates!  You never know what you are oing to get ...

But, lots to admire there as well.  I love his little book Awake, and the sequel has some very interesting stuff in it too, and he seems to be helping many people all of which is great.  

May all beings be free from binding.

Malcolm 
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Yeah, warning flags for sure. 

First comes the ideal, the perfection model: "People need to know that it is indeed possible to get "done", fully purified, entirely sinless..." 

Next comes the inevitable imperfections and sins.

Then there is the choice: honesty? or denial?

Here's the checklist in case anybody needs it:

SAINTS
SAY MEAN DO consistency
Adhere to own moral standards
Pay debts
Keep promises
Truth is highest standard
Insists close associates tell the truth
Un-aggressive philosophy
Attractive but not drawing
Waits for you to seek help
Good reputation endures & improves
Projects & organization grow & improve
In the long run things turn out well
People have long term benefit from association
Have concern for effect of actions on self and others
Will immediately apologize for errors
Look for their own mistakes & will apologize
If trapped will not renounce principles
Typically have good health
Typically have few accidents & injuries
Felt loved when a child
Can sit very still
Encourage associates to be self reliant
Refrains from using mind-dulling substances
Are comfortable being in the background
May adopt a spiritual name one time
PSYCHOPATHS
SAY MEAN DO disparity
Breaks own rules
Many bad debts, writes bad checks
Break promises
No true regard for truth
Tell close associates to lie
Push philosophy aggressively
Attractive and drawing
Comes on with unsolicited advice
Cood reputation fades in time
Projects & organization degenerate
In the long run things turn out badly
People are damaged by long term association
Are unconcerned for effect of actions on self and others
Apologize as last resort
Ignore their own mistakes and apologizes only if cornered
If trapped will do or say anything to escape
Typically have variable exotic health problems
Typically have many accidents and injuries
Felt unloved when a child
Can sit still only when center of attention
Enslave people around them
Substance abuse common
Compulsion to become the center of attention
Adopt many aliases

Anyone psychopath or saint is unlikely to have all of the characteristics listed. Just because someone has some of these characteristics does not mean he or she is a psychopath or saint.


(Thanks to Dreamwalker for typing it in!)






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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Oskar --


If its too the point, like: you lack realization and your view is incorrect, and what you say; that enlightnment is not possible(!) then to me it is very constructive to point out that that is a problem.  If I had been the student of Shinzen Young there would be a  chance that I didnt believe it was possible to end my suffering, thats pretty serious mistake from a dharma teacher if you ask me. And him being a big figure in the world of dharma I can imagine that others adopt the same view. So no, I dont think this is problematic at all to point this out. 

Oskar, how do you know someone is fully enlightened according to Pemako? Does that person retain all the traits human beings have, or do they transcend being human?
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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how do you know someone is fully enlightened according to Pemako?

- should also mention there are stages before enlightenment, but I guess this you already know, and that then the teachings from such a person could be less "firm", like partial. Like if you read Dilgo khyentse Rinpoche his explanation is clean to the spot, compared to say someone who has not finnished his purification.. if I read someone saying: "I had this enlightenment but then after that realization, these feelings started surfacing again, its very different now, but still I am enlightened" Then I would say this is an attainment, insight, but not enlightenment by a long shot. Though still good of course. 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Chris

Final stage in Pemako is exhaustion of all phenomena, so fully realizing emptiness, and exhaution of all negative mind states, also the definition for Mahayana enlightenment as I understands it.

How do you know? To me parts of that sounds simple really and you can see them talk about this in the video on cessation I posted, like there should be absolutely no anger, jealusy, depression or any other negatiev mind states whatsoever 24/7. Thats one way, if something comes up then you are not done. And of course, it should not be an artifical mind state like samadhi in which stuff is still there dormant.
The other is inquiry into the view of that person, which I guess depend on the teacher having same or higher realization in this case Kim, I am not sure if Kim does this or not but thought I should mention it since this is the way its traditionally done?
Third is energy reading, which I am a bit hesitate to mention because I know many find bhumi reading done in Pemako to be nonsense, but this is a way,  a skill that is learned and takes time to master. 
By the latter method Kim has put forth a handfull of people of this time that have reached that stage outside the sangha, like Garchen Lama and Rana Rinpoche and Amma. Among recently deceased master there is also Chatral Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. 

Does that person retain all the traits human beings have, or do they transcend being human?

- Hmm, depends on definition I guess, if there is no negative mind states 24/7, are you a human then? To me these people seem very ordinary, though I have not had the chance to meet them in the flesh yet. But happy, content and sincerly compassionate. Also the vibe of this person changes completely, like they are not solid anymore. Since this year the feel inside the sangha is very very different from how it was a year ago when no people had come to this point. Like huuuge difference emoticon 
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Ni Nurta, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Oskar Aas
Third is energy reading, which I am a bit hesitate to mention because I know many find bhumi reading done in Pemako to be nonsense, but this is a way,  a skill that is learned and takes time to master.

Personally I have no issue with energy reading but your bhumis are nonsense.
Not because they when visualized do not do anything but because of significance you put to simple visualizations. And then use fact them being easy as proof that your tradition works because people can easily do it.

Sure, simple things that help should be taught if they help. This can however be said about cessations and jhanas among other stuff, some which people do not even know can be done because no one tried. The moment knowledge like this is made in to being core teaching of 'tradition' it becomes bloated and stops really evolving. Stop being useful for insight and starts being reason a lot of nonsense is invented and called insight. Then it is described as very hard so that people have something to work for for longer periods of time and for there to be some basis for giving positions in the organisation. Of course insight being basically locked all attention falls on behavior and being perfect emotion-less being. So people go around and pretend nothing bothers them and surprise surprise if you do not immediately give in to emotions they do not have hold on you. No enlightenment of any sort needed to do it.

BTW. Didn't you guys consider that your image might improve if you actually post less URL's and talk about your circle of self-adoration and start real discussions and when applicable giving people actual advices? Not "go to our website, it has it all" but case-specific advices, things which might help someone in their specific situation. Discussions about stuff, like if something you think is not how it is being portrayed then in your own words say what you really think. So far all you guys do is what Kim did and it was absolutely terrible. Are you even different people or Kim forgot to take his anti-psychotic meds?
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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significance you put to simple visualizations. 

- Sorry Ni Nurta but I think you missunderstand, this is not how it works energy reading, it has nothing to do with vizualisation.

perfect emotion-less being. 

- Again, this is not what purification is about.. the description Daniel Brown uses for this stage is, elimination of all negative state and flourishing of 70-75 positive states I think, so joy, compassion, care etc... 

discussions and when applicable giving people actual advices? 

- as I said to Chris, I try to give answers here, and I am all up for discussion, but when you say: "kim forgot to take his anti-psychotic meds"!. 

This is not ok. Its disrespective and completely misses the mark about what is the premise for having a discussion. 
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Ni Nurta, modified 2 Months ago.

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- Sorry Ni Nurta but I think you missunderstand, this is not how it works energy reading, it has nothing to do with vizualisation.

Of course it is not.
You would need visualization to actually be able to experience minds of people different than you. What you do is just check if constructs you have resonate with someone else. It is pretty low level stuff.

It is bhumis you speak of that are visualizations.
And do not get me wrong, visualization can very powerful. Most people cannot however do visualization. They usually need to believe they are discovering something, then and only their minds can visualize.

- Again, this is not what purification is about.. the description Daniel Brown uses for this stage is, elimination of all negative state and flourishing of 70-75 positive states I think, so joy, compassion, care etc...

Details do not matter. What I refered to is trend communities like yours always follow. Once there is nothing else to discover the only thing left is something to do with morality, purification of emotions, etc. Any tradition which claims being already done stops developing anything new. Also any person who claims being done stops developing.

This is not ok. Its disrespective and completely misses the mark about what is the premise for having a discussion.

Kim's outburst looked always like this: Kim comes to DhO, starts topics pretending he invites people to discussion about something. People at first start discussing and Kim apparently not being very patient man quickly says that all teachers are wrong, all techings are wrong, only he and his crew (also some Tibetans from who these teachings come from) know the truth and everyone else is deluded and unripe + he posts a lot of URL's along the way. People call Kim for his BS. Kim makes more topics like these and even if people immediately start calling him out instead of falling in to this trap he still continues his "discussion" about unripeness of other people and posting links. Thing about these URLs is that they were supposed to explain what he is talking about but are mostly about other teachers being unripe and his teachings being superior to everyone's because of how many people he got enlightened.

It looks very similar to what you guys do. It is remarkably similar.
For hundreds of enligthened people surely there must be someone who can rise above and behave like actual human being and not clone of Kim's mental state.
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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You would need visualization to actually be able to experience minds of people different than you. What you do is just check if constructs you have resonate with someone else. It is pretty low level stuff.

- would like to know what you are refering to, and how these vizualisation works? I know that in Yuthok Nyithig, they might teach stuff like this, but here its justified because used in medicine context, being the lineage of tibetan medicine. 
What is refered to as energy reading here is what they do in Zen caligraphy, reiki and similar stuff. I have seen one other teacher apart from Kims teacher talking about a zen caligraphy master skill to see if a zen calligraphy painting is made of a realized person or not, its interesting and something to look into if you ask me.

Any tradition which claims being already done stops developing anything new. Also any person who claims being done stops developing.

- hmm, kind of agree with you. Lineages usually stick to their stuff nd dont develop further because they have stuff that work or used to work. There are many different lineages though and styles of practices. A person who claims to be done stops develop. depends on how you see it again, some do in the negative sense you talk about here. But others, like an fully enlightened master or mahasiddhas does loads of stuff in my opinion. Like starting lineages, helping people. Thinking of how much work Dilgo khyentse Rinpoche did for survival of tibetan buddhism and so on, in my view their development is more headed outwards though as compassion. 

About your last reply, we simply have different view on this. I dont see it as you do but thats fine. He has not talked about all the people he got enlightened before this year. The stages of enlightenment, from 2pf and onwards are not the same as what we call enlightenment but stages. Though I have seen many people mistake his statistics of 200 people "waking up", as 200 being done practicing which is incorrect. It means they had a taste and a shift. Other teachers are open about this as well, like Daizan skinner has a 3 day retreat I think to get such an insight, and same with Daniel Brown. You see the difference I am making here?

Again, I am not enlightened. And there are not a hundred enlightened people in the sangha, to be precice I think we are just about 80 people. That being said 5 of those have completed their path, and this happened this year, not from the time I think you are refering to. does these distinctions make sense you think?

Oskar
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Siavash ', modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Oskar Aas
there should be absolutely no anger, jealusy, depression or any other negatiev mind states whatsoever 24/7.

And absolutely there is no anger and jealousy in pemako people! Specially in KK's writings emoticon
Funny! emoticon
I guess that's why you people keep spamming the forum!
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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I have all of those things Siavash, for sure, so not done yet this one. I started a log in this forum and will try to be consistent, you can check that out if you like. 
As I have said many times now, old masters (and probably new ones too) uses harsh words and dynamism in their speak to make a point. You decide for yourself if thats the case with Kim or not. And its not spam is it, seriously? People have had very good experiences, and want to share it to others.. thats not spamming like I get in my e-mail inbox. Also this thread in particular is for all varjayana stuff, so feel free to post any pragmatic varjayana things that you think is good.
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

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Beware perfection. It does not exist in this universe.

​​​​​​​emoticon
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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One more question, Oskar:

Do you see what's happening here? You're spending a lot of your time promoting and defending Pemako. You're subjecting yourself to a "death by a thousand cuts" because the folks you're arguing with are long-term, experienced meditation practitioners. They have more experience than you. They're smart, savvy and they've seen this phenomenon here before, from Kim Katami and others. 

You might want to rethink what you're doing.
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

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Oskar --

Also this thread in particular is for all varjayana stuff, so feel free to post any pragmatic varjayana things that you think is good.

​​​​​​​No, this topic was started by a Pemako practitioner and it was meant to push Pemako Buddhism. Did you read the first post? Here it is:  

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/22769652

Note that it very clearly states the poster's intended purpose:

"My goal is to share what practices and insights my sangha and I have found useful for deepening and stabilizing the experience of selfless awareness."


​​​​​​​
Trevor Beach, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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I guess the last line of my orignal post was conveniently overlooked?

I agree that it is a waste of time to argue online with "long-term, experienced meditation practitioners" that will see what they wish to see when it validates a narrative. 

The OP was meant to showcase some of our practices in Pemako and to invite others to do the same with their own pragmatic vajrayana. It's an invitation for anyone and everyone to to show what is working for them. It is also an invitation to look at things freshly, without searching for confirmation.
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

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Trevor, the last thing this most recent foray to DhO from Kim and Company is new, or fresh, or anything like that. It's old and worn. It's "here we go again."

Meant to showcase Pemako indeed.
Trevor Beach, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Chris Marti
Trevor, the last thing this most recent foray to DhO from Kim and Company is new, or fresh, or anything like that. It's old and worn. It's "here we go again."

Meant to showcase Pemako indeed.

"Here we go again" is the expectation that must be validated, yes? The invitation is to view it freshly, not to try and see if it is new.
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

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Trevor, a good way to avoid expectations of repeated behavior is to change the behavior. You and your friends lecture. You don't converse. Your responses tend to be pointers and links back to the Pemako website and Kim's material.

Just a thought.
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Chris

- You're subjecting yourself to a "death by a thousand cuts" because the folks you're arguing with are long-term, experienced meditation practitioners.

I have very good experience with Kim and Pemako, so I dont have a problem promiting it. Experienced meditators, that depends on what you mean by that, to me it depends on insight and thats it really. 

- Did you read the first post?

No I read the headline, or the post a long time ago, I thought the same as Trevor said above.

- You dont converse.

Chris, I have tried answering to the best of my abilities here. My answer are actually pretty long. 
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

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Chris, I have tried answering to the best of my abilities here. My answer are actually pretty long. 

Oskar, post length isn't the issue. Anyone can post lengthy replies that contain lots of links and dogma. What needs to happen is conversation. Going back and forth with the others here without resorting to posting a lot of links back to the Pemako website or Kim Katami's videos on YouTube. I've seen you do conversation - just stick to it.
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Months ago.

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Oskar - prizing the "exhuastion of all negative mind states" is a straighforward denial of emptiness. It involves passion resistance and clinging to a human created ideal of 'non-negativity'.

Also, from a technical (sutta) point of view, all these 'positive' mind states, such as pamojja (gladness) passadhi (tranquility), sukkha (happiness) and viraga (dispassion) are stages in transcendental dependent origination, that precede vimutti (liberation) and asava-khaye-nana (review).  Similarly, on clinging to the formless realms, you discussed some of this with Trevor earlier, but to draw further on the suttas, karuna (compassion) connects to the base of infinite space, mudita (rejoicing) to the base of infinite consciousness, and upekkha (equanimity) to the base of nothinginess.  Uncle Sid made it quite clear that while other religions also pursue compassion, rejoicing and equanimity, the difference in his teaching was using them to gain access to these formless absorptions. He also went on repeatedly about the danger of clinging to formless absoprtions in the longer term. So binding to states such as compassion, rejoicing and equanimity involves absorption, and while the sensations of the body may still be present this nonethless connects to some key jhana factors of the formless realms. This is of course present in many religions, pretty much exactly as Uncles SId described, as it is quite easy to bind to compassion (for example) as an absorption to change your relationship to 'reality'. Such absorptions sounds great and in many ways are  great until you see the aggression and abuse that pops out from those religions, presumably as a result of spiritual bypassing. Uncle Sid issued his warnings about binding to formless realms for good reason - he knew what he was about.

Nonetheless, I think we have a difference in approach that is quite interesting. I see the purpose of purification as being to enable insight.  I think Pemako proposes that the purpose of insight is to enable purification. However, in my view, emotions are fundamentally biological in origin, and so cannot be purified, only unbound from through insight, or suppressed through spiritual bypassing.  You are as likely to abolish 'negative' emotions are you are to abolish hunger or thirst. They are the first arrow, not the second.  Of course if you plan it right, you can ensure you don't get hungry often - perhaps at the risk of over-eating and getting a bit fat (although there is nothing inherently wrong with being fat!)

So in my view absorption in compassion, or rejoicing or equanimity is a stage rather than the end of the path of insight.  But if that is what you prefer to do - great!  Enjoy it!  Vive la difference!  But be aware that if you over-indulge in these absorptions, and then try to claim that you don't get hungry, or thirsty, or emotional, or need to breathe or drink, then that psychic energy is going to pop up in other ways such as coming here to pick arguments about your inherent dharmic superiority. 

So beware of overindulgence in the jhana factors of the formless realms - it can lead to spiritual bloating.

[Edit - I wrote spiritual obesity, but that has slight overtones of fat hatred. Ni Nurta's observation of bloat is a much more accurate metaphor. Thanks Ni!]
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

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 ... prizing the "exhuastion of all negative mind states" is a straighforward denial of emptiness. It involves passion resistance and clinging to a human created ideal of 'non-negativity'.

Yes. This is a huge issue and the reason I'm curious about how Pemako deals with what is and is not human nature - what "must" be disposed of in order to gain the chimera of perfection, and what then remains.
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

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"Here we go again" is the expectation that must be validated, yes? The invitation is to view it freshly, not to try and see if it is new.

Repeated behavior tends to generate expectations. I'll try to rise above.
Trevor Beach, modified 2 Months ago.

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Thanks for this, Malcolm.

I'd like to address Oskar's statement: "Final stage in Pemako is exhaustion of all phenomena, so fully realizing emptiness, and exhaution of all negative mind states, also the definition for Mahayana enlightenment as I understands it."

Fully realizing emptiness is about exhaustion of karmic identification with phenomena. I appreciate the word "unbound" for this. Negative mind states are fair game for experience, but 100% lucidly experienced. The difference is that there is no confusion about "who" is experiencing them or why.

I can tell you that our practice is not based on formless absorption in any way.&nbsp; In fact, shattering the opportunity for absorption via shouting mantras or other dynamic physical practices is stressed often to avoid this very trap. Compassion, gratitude, equanimity are expressed as they arise naturally.

"Nonetheless, I think we have a difference in approach that is quite interesting. I see the purpose of purification as being to enable insight. I think Pemako proposes that the purpose of insight is to enable purification. However, in my view, emotions are fundamentally biological in origin, and so cannot be purified, only unbound from through insight, or suppressed through spiritual bypassing."

I also think that this is quite interesting! As you put it, Pemako puts insight first to establish the correct context (emptiness, of course) for experiencing phenomena, including emotions. The empty context allows the unbinding. In my opinion, that is simply the more reliable way to go about it. Not everyone in the sangha develops the same way, though. Some folks progress the way that you describe, where purification leads to insight by default.

For other folks, Pemako students do not come here to pick arguements, but arguements do find us pretty quickly. It is frustrating to catch shit for sharing what feels to be genuine, but it is what it is.
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Months ago.

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Thanks Trevor I enjoyed those comments and have nothing to argue with there.  I like the shouting tech to disrupt absoprtion!

Not sure that your last sentence was addressed to me, but I guess folks (myself included) are perceiving other views to be stated or implied by the apparent clinging to certain specialised vajrayana dharmas and the apparent desire to assert superiority.  Honestly, running down teachers who have benefitted many is likely to provoke a reaction, and also does also seem like a direct disconfirmation of the claims being made.  Of course, any sangha will be diverse (hopefully).  So if you want to elicit a different reaction, maybe use different stimuli?  :-) 
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

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... so fully realizing emptiness, and exhaution of all negative mind states, also the definition for Mahayana enlightenment as I understands it.

More curiosity arises from reading this comment. What is "exhaustion of all negative mind states?" Does it mean that they are permanently disposed of, never to return? My experience has been that it's not literally banishing negative feelings and emotions that matters, but fully experiencing them, investigating their nature, and realizing they are as empty as all other phenomena.

Yes?

​​​​​​​No?

​​​​​​​
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Does it mean that they are permanently disposed of, never to return? 

Yes. I have had complete emotional release many times, so I dont have a issue with this point. Its common topic in our sangha, and that it goes hand in hand with emptiness realization. Like if you have cessation, complete drop of self then this means emotions drops too. Its actually one of the definition given of cessation here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k_61NIwJuk&t=3s 

b​​​​​​ut fully experiencing them. 
hmm, well, if you fully experience them and see their empty nature, there is no one holding them right and so disposing naturally happens, thats how its been for me. 
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Months ago.

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Oskar, this might be a language issue, but I guess many people here will see a contradcition between saying yes you have permanently disposed of emotions never to return, and what's more you have done so many times.  Doesn't the first preclude the second?  If you have done this once, then surely the need to do it again will never arise.

No doubt I am imperfectly understanding what you are trying to say, but perhaps you can see why we might be puzzled to try to reconcile your views with the dharma as we know it?

With goodwill

Malcolm
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Siavash ', modified 2 Months ago.

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Trevor Beach
Pemako students do not come here to pick arguements, but arguements do find us pretty quickly. It is frustrating to catch shit for sharing what feels to be genuine, but it is what it is.

Purification!
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

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... if you fully experience them and see their empty nature, there is no one holding them right and so disposing naturally happens, thats how its been for me. 

Oskar, can you please be more precise - are you suggesting the total elimination of the rising of negative thoughts and emotions, or are you suggesting they arise still but are seen as empty and thus not clung to? This is a very important distinction.
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Thats a good question, yes I see your point Malcolm.

In my experience, when I did 2pf, self was seen through for a moment, or several moments, like a small cessation. This enabled emotions related to that "part" of the self to dissolve. If you see the video I posted, not by kim but by Venerable Thubten Chodron, she says exactly this about small cessations.

But selfing happens again after an awakening, right? If you read about Eckhart Tolles awakening or Dalai Lamas awakening, they both say that same thing. That the "honeymoon" didnt last.
Like one doesnt stay in that wakefull precense from that point on, so you keep practicing. Some then goes on to different practices than the first one that enabled that initial insight. Like in Pemako, as that is my point of reference, you never touch 2pf again after this, no point, it doesnt "work" anymore. In Zen I guess you head on to another Koan. 
You could say that the self is patched back together again, but in my experience this is not right either, its very different after one such shift, thoughts and "selfing" becomes much lighter and transparent, but fixation still happens so emotions stick. So you keep having these small cessations, and self is demolished piece by piece, this is my experience. 
So this is in relation to selfing how I see it, same but different thing is tantra where you transform emotions, but I need to go to bed now so can answer that tomorrow if interest emoticon

Essentially though you could say as I think Malcolm meant, that its only one awakening, and all the other hallmarks are just there on the way. But in my experience, some of the things that say you are moving in the right direction is the release of negative emotions or trauma if you like. And to have this milestones is really helpfull too. 

Hope this answered your question. 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Chris Marti
... if you fully experience them and see their empty nature, there is no one holding them right and so disposing naturally happens, thats how its been for me. 

Oskar, can you please be more precise - are you suggesting the total elimination of the rising of negative thoughts and emotions, or are you suggesting they arise still but are seen as empty and thus not clung to? This is a very important distinction.

Did my former answer work on this latter question Chris? I will try again for my own sake, because this is a tricky question and maybe you or others will join in, I would be interested to hear.

I am saying total elimination of rising emotions. When I have had smaller or longer dropping of self, emotions that arise dissolve, thats my experience, so thats why I stick to it. Still stuff is left, this is the question Malcom posted earlier, meaning there is still selfing going on, fixation but subtler. But a buddha have no rising of disturbing emotions how I see it. 
Also, this has to be distinguished from say compassion or kindness, which isnt an emotion in the same way.

So when you put it: "arise still but are seen as empty and thus not clung to".  I would say f.ex anger do not arise, but the expressing of anger, like dynamic expression can and should happen. So from the outside, an enlightened person can look angry, though peaceful on the inside, which to me makes all the difference because the pain is gone, as well as the need to harm others. This is how I understands it, and how I understand that Guru Rinpoche and a diciple planning to assasin some dharma enemy, like wrath but compassionate if that makes sense. Or Drukpa Kunley sleeping around but still have exhausting desire.
So, if you change the sentence to "arise as dynamic energy, which is empty" then I am all in. The reason for needing this distinction, is that I have sometimes read that people have this awakening, and then they say emotions are still arising but not clung to. In my experience as I said, if self ceases completely, emotions have nothing to stick to, and they will dissolve as long as cessation lasts. 
when its over, you might have "less" emotions, and they might be  much subtler, so not that painful anymore. But if they keep arising, however subtle, then fixation is still happening. That is why "arise but are seen as empty" is not good enough/can be missleading. Sorry for lenghty reply, hope it makes sense.
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Lol, I see I have not figured out how to make thise boxes right emoticon 
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

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Oksar, have a good night.

When you come back to DhO let's keep this as simple as we can. I'm asking if negative thoughts and emotions can be totally eliminated at some point, according to Pemako. Answering with a simple "yes" or "no" would be great. "Yes" for the total elimination of all negative thoughts and emotions, "no" for negative thoughts and emotions continuing to arise as long as were are alive and conscious.

Edit: Trevor, please feel free to jump in on this discussion.
Trevor Beach, modified 2 Months ago.

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""Yes" for the total elimination of all negative thoughts and emotions, "no" for negative thoughts and emotions continuing to arise as long as were are alive and conscious."

- To fit the options given: No.

My understanding is that the full range of thoughts and emotions are present and available but one is not bound by them. Because of that, they are experienced as what they are instead of objectively negative things. 

This has been a point of confused frustration for me in the past, actually, as I had hoped dearly that what we might call negative aspects of experience would stop happening. Instead, everything has kept happening as it always has, but it sometimes occurs as a part of awareness instead of "happening to me." Same old ordinary emotions, but experienced without the subject-object duality.
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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I was going to say yes, but Trevors explanation is better, though I would add that that the range of a human beings emotion is there, though the pain is gone. So a buddha, like Guru Rinpoche, would express wrath to benefit others, though he himself feels no pain. A phrase I have read several times when it comes to last realization is that there is no hope or fear anymore. So I guess a buddha do not experience fear. 

I think yes no dicothomy does disservice to the question and dialogue Chris, sorry.
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Months ago.

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Oskar, Trevor, thank you for your generous replies and descriptions of some of your own experiences.  I would make a couple of observations from my own perspective, using my own metaphaors.  Please make use of these or discard them as you see fit.

With large insight moments, there are several things going on. The body-mind system is often (but not always) prepared and 'charged up' or 'focussed' through preparatory practice. The insight itself can generate a huge emotional or psychic charge as well. The moment of insight makes the brain plastic and results in some significant rewiring. And the new perspectives are absoluately fascinating (absorbing) for a while. It can be easy to mistake the effects of the pre and post-charges, or the fascination of the new ways of seeing, as being part of the insight itself. Then people may think they will be permanently in those charged and absorbed states. That doesn't happen, partly because the mind-body oscillates down to a new equilibrium, and partly because you lose the fascination of the new over time, and partly because the causes and conditions are no longer present (e.g. through the preparatory pratice). Also, as you observe Oskar, the remaining non-empty parts of the self can encourage some kind of growing back into that space before the path of insight is complete. So the insights have significant and wonderful effects, but mistaking the associated cool phenomena for the unbinding can lead to clinging and thus suffering. Once the path of insight is complete, you easily can get back to those phenomena with appropriate preparation (or in some cases no preparation), but that is more in the nature of a hobby than the way of being, because those phenomena are not clung to. Just like emotions, as you both observe, they may arise but are not clung to.

Also, in terms of the self, there are many components to it. The simplest way to think about it is form, feeling, perception, voliltion and consciousness, each of which needs to be seen through. But actually as practice advances I find that it is more useful to expand this into the 12 nidanas to give a better explanation of what is going on.  All 12 nidanas are part of the selfing process, so it is common to make progress in one nidana, get some aspect of not-self, but then feel puzzlement or confusion about how it doesn't seem to accord with what others are saying.  So, at one stage you might need to observe how feelings are fabricated from contact, feeling tone, craving and attachment. At another, you might want to dissolve the subject object boundary by ditching divided knowing (consciousness) in favour of non-duality. Then you might suspend conceptual recognition (namarupa) to achieve emptiness. Or you might suspend and reprogramme the normal processes of sensory observation (salayatana) to gain access to the ground of being. These three are somewhat interdependent of course, but in a complex relationship. For example, it is common to have non-empty non-duality and this in particular seems to lead to religious proselytizing ("We all live in the mind of god and the world is filled with the Holy Spirit - stand aside heretic!!). Or you might unwind most of your sankharas to achieve tranquility or equanimity. And so on (there is more). As Chris kindly pointed out to me at an important juncture, there might be glimpses ahead but aren't any short cuts.

The danger is always achieving some part of not-self, and thinking that is 'it' when it just a stage on the journey, as this mistake can lead to rationalistion and emotional suppression. Rationalisations are easier than practice right?  "Surely I've done enough, and anyone who says otherwise must be a bad teacher ... ".  Nope, keep going.  Lightly, with joy and curiosity, happiness for yourself and others, in a spirit of kindness, and with knowledge of the love and support reaching out to you from the many others on the journey.

emoticon

Malcolm
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Thanks Malcom, this is cool reading emoticon If I may share my own experience with what you write?

The body-mind system is often (but not always) prepared and 'charged up'
- I know some whos experience has been like this, though not necessary due to their preperation practices (if you could spesify what you mean by this, like are you aiming at one spesific insight and then does preparation before that, like two separate practices?). I think its because body goes into preparing, it "knows" somthing is about to change. I have periods when some practice is "on" all the time, like from I wake up, untill it flips. 

some significant rewiring. And the new perspectives are absoluately fascinating (absorbing) for a while

- significant rewiring yes, though for me these has always been very normal, so not this facination or absorbtion, but the rewiring for sure. Since we have so much focus on the energy system in Pemako, I usually am able to feel which chakras and channels and where are about to change (though not in the same way in the beginning). So this rewiring is almost predicted. In the beginning it was some shocks though.

causes and conditions are no longer present (e.g. through the preparatory pratice.

- yes to the cause and conditions, still curious about preparatory practice and how this works.


The simplest way to think about it is form, feeling, perception, voliltion and consciousness, each of which needs to be seen through. 

- Yes but different lineages and teachers goes about this differently right?

12 nidans.

- This dependent origination right. In my logic and experience, self happens as a result of ignorance/deluded perception. And then due to this, this and that (the causes in the link) happens, in at some point you get to emotions (which is somewhere in that link). So if one regress, and completely penetrate the ignorance part, then should not the emotions also "completely" dissolve? What is your thought on that? 

 For example, it is common to have non-empty non-duality and this in particular seems to lead to religious proselytizing

- think you nailed this one.

"Surely I've done enough, and anyone who says otherwise must be a bad teacher ... ". 

- I totally agree with the fact that one can think you are done and then not be, and thats a problem. But I think this sometimes overshadow the fact that there is a "done" right, like you here people say practice has no end and that is wrong too.. Now what is done we could (and should) discuss. So, is there a "done" the way you see it Malcolm?

Thanks for lenghty reply
Oskar
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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Not two, not one:

So, at one stage you might need to observe how feelings are fabricated from contact, feeling tone, craving and attachment. At another, you might want to dissolve the subject object boundary by ditching divided knowing (consciousness) in favour of non-duality. Then you might suspend conceptual recognition (namarupa) to achieve emptiness. Or you might suspend and reprogramme the normal processes of sensory observation (salayatana) to gain access to the ground of being. These three are somewhat interdependent of course, but in a complex relationship.


Could we pretty please have a video chat about this some time?
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Months ago.

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö
Not two, not one So, at one stage you might need to observe how feelings are fabricated from contact, feeling tone, craving and attachment. At another, you might want to dissolve the subject object boundary by ditching divided knowing (consciousness) in favour of non-duality. Then you might suspend conceptual recognition (namarupa) to achieve emptiness. Or you might suspend and reprogramme the normal processes of sensory observation (salayatana) to gain access to the ground of being. These three are somewhat interdependent of course, but in a complex relationship.
Could we pretty please have a video chat about this some time?

Most certainly!  I guess you can find my email? Or if not I can probably find yours?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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Oh yay! emoticon

Honestly, I have no idea how to find your email address, and I suck at checking my four different email accounts. How about you contact me at [removed] and then let me know in my log that you have done so? 

And let me know here when you have jotted down my email address. Then I'll remove it. Thanks! 
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Months ago.

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Got it! 
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

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I think yes no dicothomy does disservice to the question and dialogue Chris, sorry.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, Oskar. Not surprisingly, I think the question presents a clarifying distinction.
Adi Vader, modified 2 Months ago.

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I have no connection whatsoever with Pemako Sangha.
My experience of awakening in terms of 'affect' is of moving from a permanent low grade fight or flight response (with sometimes increasing strength) to a permanent low grade relaxation response ( which sometimes deepens)

Negative emotions absent, positive emotions present.

No global love, affection, compassion, ecstatic bliss. Nothing fancy like that!

Purely out curiosity (no drama, no challenges), in case you are willing to share, may I know your own direct experience. 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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I started a log here you could check out, but has more to write there so not very far You could ask spesifically there if  something catches you interest, and probably I will have more stuff there by some weeks to check out. I have also written some of it here, but then you need to look around a bit emoticon 

Oskar
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Thanks Chris.
Adi Vader, modified 2 Months ago.

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Thanks Chris
I will check out your logs and come back to you in case of any queries. My question though was very focused regarding negative emotions and mental states and your on-going lived experience. Perhaps I will find it in your log as and when I get around to reading it. Thanks again. Take care.

Edit: I find the user interface unfamiliar and difficult to use and it takes time for me to realize that somebody has written something to me emoticon. Sorry about my delayed response.
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Ni Nurta, modified 2 Months ago.

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Description of reduced affect are in line with everything else, including what is expected from "pragmatic dharma" approach and also match results from my own mostly training of perception based practices.

The baseline emotional responses change from constant low level agitation and seeking emotions to relieve stress of boredom to baseline relaxation and feeling fine. Stronger emotional responses do not arise or arise very muted and usually very short lived. Without the anchor of sense of self to which these emotions refer to they are not reigniting themselves and there is also more methods/actions to reach equilibrium faster than through emotions which are themselves pretty taxing for nervous system.

There are 'actions' which nervous system can learn which can trigger switch of parts of nervous system in use, or force momentary inactivity, even actions which can force change in ways neurons react to activity forcing activity elsewhere. Concentraing in specific ways on something which seems like nothing but is actually concentrating on part of mind does also work to spread activity nicely across nervous system and make us feel good. These actions can be learned to do in quite direct fashion but can also be induced to happen in mind through visualizations. Certain visualizations are more likely to trigger some activity in mind which does something beneficial for nervous system and these my understanding is were discovered by some people and passed down in traditions like Vajrayana. Of course they think these things they learned to do which they do not know how they even work are the pinnacle of enlightenment emoticon 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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The baseline emotional responses change from constant low level agitation and seeking emotions to relieve stress of boredom to baseline relaxation and feeling fine. Stronger emotional responses do not arise or arise very muted and usually very short lived. 

- cool. Though I struggled abit to understand some of the other stuff in that paragraph, english is not my native language. 

Certain visualizations are more likely to trigger some activity in mind which does something beneficial for nervous system and these my understanding is were discovered by some people and passed down in traditions like Vajrayana. Of course they think these things they learned to do which they do not know how they even work are the pinnacle of enlightenment emoticon

- again not sure if I got all of it. But to use an example if I got it right, are you saying that if I vizualise this x (spesific vizualisation), then I would be able to percieve something in your mind or my mind. and is this due to some reaction or non-reaction in this mind? sorry hard to grasp this.

vizualisation as I see it, and my experience can be different things. Felt like sharing, maybe people can join in on this, its just taken out of my head. It can be 1) an image of nature of mind, like guru rinpoche or a deity from an empowerment. Like through the guru, we learn to percieve our own nature. 2) vizualising say colors or objects at certain location to move energy around. Like I see my feet being black, will send energy down into the body. I have heard some people vizualise themselves as say a mountain (inn martial art) and they become very heavy, maybe thats a step up in terms of skills or maybe its not all that true. Cant come up with other types.
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Months ago.

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Adi, not sure if this was just meant for Chris, but here is my answer.

There is no longer an “own direct experience”.  There is just experience of an ever-recreated processing of perceptions into temporary conceptual frameworks, This process is non-separate, non-centred, non-directed. It feels very human and engaged.

Baseline experience is equanimous, happy, compassionate, joyous. Other mind states come and go to push ‘above’ and ‘below’ this baseline depending on temporary frames of reference, and retained worldly engagement. But these are neither resisted nor clung to.

One interesting feature is that, with increased mind-body efficiency and the removal of limiting factors, there is a tendency towards extraordinary hard work and stupid overachievement, together with some impact of this on tranquility. I have noticed this with at least five others who seem to have a similar mind-body state but don’t live in monasteries - work work work work work.
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Anyway, for me poetry captures a lot of it.
… While still I may, I write for you
The love I lived, the dream I knew.
From our birthday, until we die,
Is but the winking of an eye;
And we, our singing and our love,
What measurer Time has lit above,
And all benighted things that go
About my table to and fro,
Are passing on to where may be,
In truth's consuming ecstasy,
No place for love and dream at all;
For God goes by with white footfall.
I cast my heart into my rhymes,
That you, in the dim coming times,
May know how my heart went with them
​​​​​​​After the red-rose-bordered hem.
(WB Yeats)
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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Not two, not one:

There is no longer an “own direct experience”.  There is just experience of an ever-recreated processing of perceptions into temporary conceptual frameworks, This process is non-separate, non-centred, non-directed. It feels very human and engaged.

Baseline experience is equanimous, happy, compassionate, joyous. Other mind states come and go to push ‘above’ and ‘below’ this baseline depending on temporary frames of reference, and retained worldly engagement. But these are neither resisted nor clung to.

I feel like this is what is very gradually developing, with lot of backlashes. I recognize the glimpses and they get more common and last longer. I also recognize when I’m not there, and I find that being able to appreciate that recognition rather than getting involved in disappointment is very helpful where I’m at right now. Paradoxically, in recognizing that I’m not there, I sort of discover that the there is still there.


One interesting feature is that, with increased mind-body efficiency and the removal of limiting factors, there is a tendency towards extraordinary hard work and stupid overachievement, together with some impact of this on tranquility. I have noticed this with at least five others who seem to have a similar mind-body state but don’t live in monasteries - work work work work work.

I find that this is relatable on many scales. The issue can arise already with minor increases in efficiency and and minor removals of limiting factors. Also, it isn’t always a case of remarkable capacities for work or remarkable overachievements. It can be pretty ordinary stuff, from an observer’s perspective, and yet indeed be stupid over-achievement. Living with an atypical neurologic wiring, a society mainly catering to typical wiring poses some touch challenges for me. I have had so many cases of some aspect of liberation occurring, and then spending all the released energy and some more on overcompensating (because now I can), leading to fatigue and affecting my practice later on. This happens both in longer cycles and in shorter cycles. I suspect it is related to the PoI cycling.
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Adi Vader, modified 2 Months ago.

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Hi thanks for writing to me and sorry about my delayed response.

Your experience which you have shared with me is very interesting. I find similarities which I can identify with. In case you are curious:

1. I have a very clear sense of self. But it is seen as a construct and does not carry any 'weight'
2. I was always very ambitious and still am
3. I dont experience disappointment, anger, irritation but a very very stable ability to get behind an agenda of my choice and push towards success while not having any expectations of success or failure
4. I have a strong preference for combining ideas, people, agendas but can walk away when I realise that combining is not possible - no regret, no remorse
5. I have no compulsions to get into arguments or fights but absolutely nothing stops me from doing it. There is no cognitive barrier except the limits that I choose for myself
6. I almost never look down upon anything anymore - not people, ideas, philosophies, but am very clear about what is valuable within a defined context and not valuable. The loss of mana (the compulsion to compare) has absolutely no connection with the ability to judge value basis context
7. The relative is world is empty and therefore is an opportunity to engage with and fill it with meaning

In the middle of all of the above which seems very dry and clinical, there is a constant spirit of friendliness and a desire to help people - people includes 'me' emoticon

The most powerful change is what I wrote about before - a continuous relaxation response

My theory, the way I frame this for myself is that I have done a lot of perceptual exercises which in turn has changed my mental models. It is this change in mental models that is lasting and permanent and is what causes the affective shift towards relaxation. My guess is the perceptual abilities - mindfulness, energy, investigation and concentration are temporary and will simply fade away over the years. Joy will come and go. Relaxation and equanimity are here to stay.

The poem'If' by Rudyard Kipling is the work of poetry that best represents my lived experience.
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Malcolm. I had to look emoticon Do you share more of your insights anywhere?
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And why the working? Is it boddhicitta going on?
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Months ago.

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Hey Oskar, just to respond

- By preparatory practice I mean a strong dose of meditation. There are of course different meditation practices that have different effects.

- I do blather on here and there in the DhO, but don't systematically share insights. You are welcome to ask questions but I can't gaurantee the quality of the answers. emoticon 

- Not sure about the cause of the endless working - but it is only a single observation from me so I wouldn't read too much into it unless others confirm. Looking within, I can see non-resistance and a tendency towards crystallising chaotic potential into skilful processes. But I can't quite pin down the origin of this tendency, or the feedback mechanism that sustains it. It seems unrelated to the five aggregates. So don't know, sorry.

- Five aggregates and DO. Yes different people approach this in different ways. But dissolving ignorance does not get rid of emotions, any more than it gets rid of sense organs or contact. To dissolve ignorance you need to calm down, see through, and reprogram most of the nidanas in some way, including seeing through Jati (rebirth or the sense of self).  But the Jati is not the totality of selfing process.  Ultimately, it is the craving accompanied by passion and delight -  the wallowing in your impulses and feelings - that leads to binding to concepts. The wallowing means you are out of control, and the craving (tanha) and binding to the objects (upadana) leads to unskillful reprogramming or new karma (bhava - the process of forming new sankharas). From this process the sene of self arises and somehow ties the whole system together (jati).  So the aim is to get the process of DO under control, instead of it having you under control. That's how I see it anyway, I'm sure others will have different views.

- Is there a done? Yes, pari-nibbana. You're done when you're dead and the sense organs and nervous system shut down and get eaten by worms.  emoticonBefore that, there is an end to the path of insight as described the suttas, and this is when you see through the last thing supporting the subtle sense of self - what Therevadan's would call fourth path - reality shimmers and you are unbound from 'objects' and freed from clinging.  But whether you regard that as 'done' is up to you. That event will run on for a while in various ways until it reaches an equilibrium (a bit like the computer game of life, where initial conditions play out in complex patterns over time). You can also keep developing concentration skills, powers, morality and so on after reaching the end of the path of insight. The most striking evidence here is that there two classes of arahants in the suttas, those with access to formless realms and those without access to the formless realms - so there is quite a lot of variation. And remember the aphorism that morality is the first training, and morality is the last training - that is, morality is still an important training for arahant, for example through the four right exertions and mindfulness of the snares of mara. Why else stick around in a monastery when you are done?  It's much easier!  (Although to be fair, there is also no particular reason to change at that point - one place is as good as another, except some have nicer views). Also, the emotional system may temporarily shut down after the final insight moment, and take some time to reboot, but this is reflective of the massive charges that have been going through the mind-body system to effect the change. That emotional system is not to be clung too, and not to be resisted.  So how you live and feel when you reach the end of the path of insight will still depend on causes and conditions in your history and environment, as well the subtle intentions you allow to flourish. And of course the residue remaining - the sankhara that haven't been purified during the process, and the sense organs that have not yet been eaten by worms.  
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Right Malcolm emoticon 

Cool thanks for sharing!! I feel I want to dig more as this is quite currious and its a long time since I have read dharma books or checked out other things really, which I did more before (too much actually). For example could you say something more about "ever-created processing"?
And yes we have different approaches and I dont see all these things the same way as you describe, though really enjoy reading it. But then my training is Mahayana and Varjayana and not Therevada which makes a difference in a couple of ways.

I have never had this extraordinary work thing going on at all, but saw that Frank yang guy, and he is off the chart and pretty sure you guys have that in common emoticon Have a nice evening. 

Oskar 
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

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... could you say something more about "ever-created processing"?

Oskar, if you Google the term "dependent origination" you'll get lots of information on this.
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Chris, yes haha, I am familiar with it. I mean I want to hear Malcolm decribe it. 
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I mean, do you percieve how these events originate one following the other, 12 nidanas? Like seeing ignorance, becomming and these things one by one.. cant remember which comes when but you see the point. Might be a stupid question but thats how it sounds like to me. 
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

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+1

Very nice summary, Malcolm!
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Months ago.

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Thanks Chris!  emoticon

Oskar - you can't describe it easily as the concepts involved have multiple contextual meanings, levels of aggregation, interactions and feedback loops. So any one description can be erroneously taken for a literal and complete explanation when it is really just an example. Hence doctrinal disputes arise from the erroneous reification of different examples into the totality of DO.  Better to soak in lots of different descriptions to try to build an intuitive understanding, 

Nonetheless, although not easy, it is possible to give a western logical explanation of the whole process, but it would take deep undestanding and some thousands of words of careful writing with a skilled team. Working on it!  You'll just have to wait ... emoticon
Malcolm
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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I certainly look forward to reading that!
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Aight emoticon 
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Malcolm and Chris, I have thought about the discussion regarding emotions arising after enlightenment vs not arising anymore at all. I said that when self ceases, for longer or shorter moments, there is nothing for emotions to hold on to and so they fade, diminish and stop existing, and there is neither any cause- a self- so they dont arise either. Point is to exhaust all parts of the self, so there is no longer any cause for new disturbing emotions to arise.

I looked around a bit, and its pretty clear from mahayana perspective that disturbing emotions are to be eliminated and not arise, and so your view Malcolm that this is not in accordance with buddhism, I think is wrong.
"Oskar - prizing the "exhuastion of all negative mind states" is a straighforward denial of emptiness. It involves passion resistance and clinging to a human created ideal of 'non-negativity'." 
Its not a denial of emptiness, its what naturally happens when self is seen through as empty. I understand this causes the confusions like 1) the "apathetic person that supresses emptions but says he is liberated", or  2) is the buddha "emotionless"? Maybe people like to share thoughts on this? I have already given it a go a couple of times emoticon Should also mention that Kim talks about much better than I in the video on cessation I posted in this log some time ago. 

I looked around a bit and found two qotes that shows this pretty clearly, and in general its not hard to find if you check any book by a Mahayana master and type in "emotions" or "exhaustion" hehe, that the aim is to fully purify them and exhaust them and their cause. If you find other Mahayana sources please let me know. Also keen to hear your or other peoples thoughts on this, its kind of a sensitive topic I think in several ways,  but also very central. 

1.

What is the purpose of teaching dependent arising?
The master Nagarjuna, whose very nature is compassion, saw that living beings are beset by various sufferings and assumed the task of teaching the reality of things just as it is so that they might be free.
He therefore began teaching dependent arising.
For, it is said: "Seeing what is not real, you are bound; Seeing the real, you are free."
What is the reality of things just as it is?
It is the absence of essence.
Unskilled persons whose eye of intelligence is obscured by the darkness of delusion conceive of an essence in things and then generate attachment and hostility with regard to them.
When the illumination of the knowledge of dependent arising clears away the darkness of delusion and the eye of wisdom sees the absence of essence in things, then there is no foundation for the other afflictions, and attachment and hostility do not develop.
---
Buddhapalita
[From the book "The Great Treatise On The Stages Of The Path To Enlightenment]

2. 
From the book Crystal Clear On vipashyana and shamata 
Please put it into practice; for by doing so your mind will grow more steady and peaceful, and you will feel an increasing sense of ease. This pleasurable feeling may provide the solid foundation from which the clear insight of vipashyana will develop. Generating a state of calm causes negative emotions to subside to some extent, but does not eliminate them totally. Therefore, regard shamatha as the foundation for training in vipashyana.
...
What then is vipashyana in the context of Mahamudra? First of all, we have "bewildered ourselves" into sarnsara. During this confused state, we do not see clearly the true nature of things, what reality is. The practice of vipashyana develops the ability to see clearly the actual state of affairs. This is the meaning of vipashyana: to see the basic condition of what is. Training in vipashyana eliminates negative emo[1]tions and clarifies our lack of knowing, our ignorance.
It also deepens our insight and wisdom.
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Malcolm, I just re-read one of your post and felt I needed to comment on this. 

"This is of course present in many religions, pretty much exactly as Uncles SId described, as it is quite easy to bind to compassion (for example) as an absorption to change your relationship to 'reality'."

- I think Malcolm there is a difference in our approaches, as you talk from sutta point of view. In Mahayana compassion is seen differently, not as an absorbtion (though I guess thats one way it can be practices). Also its two ways to look at it, relative and absolute bodhicitta. So its loads of emphasis on generating compassion (relative), motivation and so forth, and then more and more intergrating it with the view of emptiness (absolute), that emptiness and compassion is the same thing. 
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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I thought this quite funny and insightful, as a quintessential western vajrayana pragmatic buddhist practice:

spinning my prayer wheel when watching TV!

more truth in jokes than anywhere else

t


​​​​​​​nice to see stirling and malcolm again...
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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the sufis tell of man lost in the desert, dying of thirst, who stumbled upon a flask...

he was bitterly disappointed when he opened the cap to find that the flask contained only

​​​​​​​pearls...
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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akoha trevor,

   You said:

  Training in recognizing rigpa is #1 priority in our practice as well.  The whole purpose of RBY is to consistently establish recognition of our basic nature and then to stabilize that recognition.

   
This western buddhism, as bhikkhu thanissaro might point out, bears a striking resemblance to good old fashioned christian methodism. The methodists spoke of conversion and sanctification in much the same way.

   Not necessarily bad if recognized, but one might want to examine whether by "basic nature" one refers to some sort of existent, living, active "god" of whom one might impute qualities, robes and garments, and so on and on creating new webs to ensnare ourselves in.

   The final snares are pleasure and amusement in spiritual things. Trungpa used to call it, "spiritual materialism."

terry


from "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism" by chogyam trungpa 

https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-WB1Fzh_m8LjpIk16/Cutting%20Through%20Spiritual%20Materialism_djvu.txt

Ego is able to convert everything to its own use, even spiri- 
tuality. For example, if you have learned of a particularly 
beneficial meditation technique of spiritual practice, then 
ego's attitude is, first to regard it as an object of fascination 
and, second to examine it. Finally, since ego is seeming solid 
and cannot really absorb anything, it can only mimic. Thus 
ego tries to examine and imitate the practice of meditation 
and the meditative way of life. When we have learned all the 
tricks and answers of the spiritual game, we automatically try 
to imitate spirituality, since real involvement would require 
the complete elimination of ego, and actually the last thing 
we want to do is to give up the ego completely. However, we 
cannot experience that which we are trying to imitate; we can 
only find some area within the bounds of ego that seems to 
be the same thing. Ego translates everything in terms of its 
own state of health, its own inherent qualities. It feels a sense 
of great accomplishment and excitement at having been able 
to create such a pattern. At last it has created a tangible ac- 
complishment, a confirmation of its own individuality. 

If we become successful at maintaining our self-conscious- 
ness through spiritual techniques, then genuine spiritual de- 
velopment is highly unlikely. Our mental habits become so 
strong as to be hard to penetrate. We may even go so far as 
to achieve the totally demonic state of complete "Egohood." 
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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watering down water...

​​​​​​​lol...
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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oskar posted this:


And here is the video with Garchen Rinpoche, I havent seen the whole video but a friend from the sangha posted this part some months ago, maby will see it later, I think his precense is some of the most astonishing I have seen, and if I get the chance to see him I will: 

"Now I am completely purified, ready to die..." at 49 minuts. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcfEJwQflJI



my comment:

and at 50 mins he was presumably proven to be a liar...
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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this is really sweet, linda...these are the posts that stay in my heart...


(linda said)


Sure, but it just seems safer not to jump to any conclusions, as those who do tend to get awfully unskillful. If I ever get there, I hope it will be reflected in my behavior. 

Edited to clarify: I don't have any issues with Garchen Rinpoche saying that he has completed his purification. My point is rather that I deeply respect that he doesn't need to boast about it or badmouth other teachers in order to market himself. 
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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linda said:

Commersializing the dharma can be a hot potato per se, even though lots of people here (probably the majority?) are okay with paying for teachings. 

-------------


Really?

Wow....

This being itself a noncommercial site, it's not just another brick in the wall.

I'd give people here a little more credit.

​​​​​​​t
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Aloha terry - I see you!  Or Kia Ora, as we say in my country.

And for the analytically minded (which is of course not compulsory) I would just note that the objects of these discussions can be turned into practice, if you want. They are dharmas, or mind objects, or the fourth frame of reference, from the satipatthana sutta. They can be subject to mindful investigation in the way specified in that sutta for that frame of reference. They are also related to stage 9 of anapansati - experiencing the mind - but then they have to be let go in stages (I would provisionally say stage 10 for sankharas, 12 for cravings, 14 for duality, 15 for concepts, 16 for the dharma itself). And this process can be supported by deeper TMI-style concentration (11) and vipassana (13).

Although frankly, now that I know that spinning a prayer wheel while watching Love Island is a viable alternative, I'm starting to regret my choices. emoticon 

​​​​​​​Malcolm
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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I can say with complete confidence that garchen rinpoche, whoever this person is, completed purification before their parents were born...
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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oskar said:


Yes, money. I know he tried for a while living on donation but that didnt work in the west at all so one need to get paid if providing for a family..that being said, if one does not have money just that is ok, retreats can be joined anyway, or payment discussed to adjust ones paycheck, this has always been the case. Also there are hundreds of free videos on youtube and books that are free,when I did 2pf the teacher helping me said money was noo problem at all, and thats how I do it as well, so to be honest I struggle to see the money problem here.. 


   
I wonder if his students have gotten him 93 rolls royce's yet.

   Enlightened people fully grasp that all a person really needs is a handful of grains per day. If one works for the dharma all that is needful appears on its own.

   Selling water by the riverside is a hustle no matter whether the fool can afford it or not, so saying the victims are willing is not exculpatory.

   Buddhism is the solution, late capitalism is the problem. Selling the dharma "to support my family" is only the latest sign of the apocalypse.

   I mean, what would the buddha think? What would he say to Fetter? "Here's some walking around money, son, take a girl out."

   I'm sure these guys are selling something, but it's not the dharma. Caveat emptor.

​​​​​​​t
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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my family is all sentient being...

​​​​​​​if you would like to donate, take care of your self and your ohana...
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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from the rubaiyat of omar khayyam, trans fitzgerald:


​​​​​​​LXXI.

 And much as Wine has play'd the Infidel,
 And robb'd me of my Robe of Honour—well,
   I often wonder what the Vintners buy
 One half so precious as the Goods they sell.
  
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Oskar - just replying in the general line of the thread, as otherwise I find the discussion gets a bit lost in the sub-threads. 

"Malcolm and Chris, I have thought about the discussion regarding emotions arising after enlightenment vs not arising anymore at all. I said that when self ceases, for longer or shorter moments, there is nothing for emotions to hold on to and so they fade, diminish and stop existing, and there is neither any cause- a self- so they dont arise either. Point is to exhaust all parts of the self, so there is no longer any cause for new disturbing emotions to arise."

Then, can you explain why you still have a body and need to eat and drink, breathe and wear clothes? Whatever arguments you use to justify these remaining parts of the self, I can then apply to each of the other five aggregates. So the position you put forward is non-sensical. 

"In Mahayana compassion is seen differently, not as an absorbtion (though I guess thats one way it can be practices). Also its two ways to look at it, relative and absolute bodhicitta. So its loads of emphasis on generating compassion (relative), motivation and so forth, and then more and more intergrating it with the view of emptiness (absolute), that emptiness and compassion is the same thing."

Yes, compassion can be attached to many things.  But accordinng to the suttas, Karuna (compassion) is a practice that gives access to the ground of infinite space.  So it is easy to feel expanded and slightly non-dual as a result of compassionate practices.  But that is not emptiness.  Instead compassion is empty too - I'm not saying compassion is thereofore absent. No, I agree it tends to be a default state of awakening, as the natural corollary of overcoming ignorance. But it arises and passes away like everything else, and is empty of enduring separate essence like anything else.  It is just an overlay of a concept onto sense-data like everything else. Emptiness is not compassion; instead emptiness is none other than form. Not to be clung to.  It should be clearly seen as impermanent, not-self, and a potential source of unsatisfactroriness.  If you cannot clearly see the three characteristics of compassion, then you have a task ahead of you.

Nagarjuna quote - yes this is all material that accords with my understanding.  There is a passing comment that Nagarjuna's very nature is compassion, but that reads more like hagiography of the invidual than dharma about DO. 

Crystal Clear quote - couldn't see the source of this so unable to assess accuracy, or tranlsation. But the somewhat offhand comment that vipassana eliminates negative emotions is wrong.  

Now if you want to get rid of almost all negative emotions, you can get close by purifying almost all sankharas and living among acolytes who gently tend to your every whim.  But even then you still experience the occasional arising.  Osho is a great example - you can see in the video of Wild Wild Country how pissed off he was when he found out what Sheela had been doing!  However, if you are awakened these arisings do not stick, and you can choose how to react to them, and you can enjoy them (positive and negative emotions) without creating new karma/sahkhara/programming. You can maybe carry on and erase almost all social programming and biological drives if you really want to, in theory, but the people who do this are usually pretty humble and are prone to dropping dead (likely by choice) - e.g. Paramahansa Yogananda. If general, you are not done until you die and the worms eat your nervous system and there is no particular need to accelerate that process. It comes soon enough and you don't want to miss out on experience (including compassion)!  But I think it is a very common error across many versions of buddhism to confuse awakening during the lifetime with the characteristics of pari-nibbana.

So you may ask, what evidence would I accept?  Well that is a reasonable question, and I will tell you.  If somebody wants to say negative emotions no longer arise, then I expect they should be able to explain how they arose in the first place. They should also have direct experience of packets of sense data arising and passing away, solidifying into an overarching sensation within the body, that then interacts with biological drives or subconsious sankharas to create a broader feelling, with the feeling being observed in terms of pressure, location, movement, energy, followed by recognition of the overlaying of a concept on that feeling to become the emotion, and then seeing how a positive or negative evaluation is attached to that emotion, and how that leads to a momentary urge that in turn triggers some higher level sankhara, how that matures into a wallowing in desire, and then how the act of wallowing creates attachment that refinforces the subject/object distinction, leading to recreation of karma and becoming of the sensation of self, followed by pain, suffering, old age, misery and death. I would expect somebody to have direct knowlege of every part of that process (vipassana), and then to have observed how each part could be changed or renounced, and then what happens as a result. After that, I think they would have valuable evidence about the changes to emotion upon awakening. (P.S. don't go thinking you have to die at the last stage - rather you have to clearly see the fabrication of the concept of death).

Then I would want to them to say what part or parts of that process still operates, how the organism can continue to learn operate in daily life without emotion, and how it is they still experience pain from a hot element, adrelain from being chased by a dog, and enjoyment in sex or jhana.  And whether positive emotions endure and if so exactly how these differ from negative emotions, given the common practices of reversing vedana (e.g. cemetary contemplations or contemplations on the repulsiveness of the body) demonstrate that the distinction between negative and positive emotion is somewhat arbitrary.

You know, when Buddha became awakened he almost kept it all to himself.  At first he couldn't face the thought of teaching because it would just be too much trouble. How many open bhumis is that?  Doesn't sound like too many!  emoticon

May all beings be free from clinging, and to quote Linji Yixuan "If you see the Buddha on the road, Kill Him!"  But I repeat myself ... 

Hope you enjoyed the answer. I enjoyed the visit to the azuric realm!

Love 

Malcolm
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Check mate! Love this post! 

I copy pasted this last post of yours to Awake Network as I would like to use it so to discuss something else Kenneth Folk said to me and on one podcast. It's about his "Cosmic Joke". 

You describe the Mastery of Awakening so well in this post and Kenneth thinks it's not needed to "just awaken". 

You can join us there if you want. Btw, it has nothing to do with this thread. 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Malcolm. Thank you for your answer, will try my best to reply how I see it emoticon

About remaining body. Three things comes to mind. One is that the final stage when the body goes is rainbow body, meaning the five aggregates in fact is dissolved in sambogakaya, though the person/buddha lives on "non-physically". 

Now I will explain the full approach as the path of seeing. After you have realized that your residual body is a mental body, your defilements are exhausted and you attain the changeless vidyadhara level of life mastery beyond birth and death, without even leaving your physical body behind.

- Dakini Teachings

this attainment does happen while alive, but becomes evident for others at the time of death. So there is an appearing of the body while alive, though not solid or real. So is it a remaining body? The appearance of a body at least.

Also came to think of the Heart sutra, no eyes, nose, tounge and so forth.. to me sounds like this realization have exhausted the aggregates, or I dont understand what else it should mean? 

Third thing which I really think is the same as this latter one, can be seen here by Longchenpas passage. I think what has not been mentioned in this thread but should have is the difference between therevada and Mahayana enlightenment, so anatta vs emptiness of all phenomena. If you check out Daniel Brown and Ratnashree Rinpoche, they both put anatta before full exhaution. Kim does this too. Longchenpa, from book basic space of Phenomana (longchenpa_treasury-of-the-basic-space-of-phenomena.pdf): 

Awareness expresses itself through its dynamic energy as consciousness that involves conceptual elaboration, marked by the myriad dualistic habitual patterns that such consciousness generates. Since what are not objects are misconstrued as objects, there are the five kinds of sense objects, and since what has no identity is invested with identity, there are the five afflictive emotions. These constitute all possible confused perception-of the universe and the beings within it. Even what manifests as sa~sara arises due to that dynamic energy, but when this is not realized, the manifestation itself is one of erroneous perception

- since what are not objects are msconstrued as objects, so purification of appearances as "external" things, though it still this happens in the mind is part of the practice of seeing all phenomena as empty.

But how do I explain that needing to drink, eat and so forth? I have no idea. Sorry. In terms of rainbowbody attainment, it would work but that means just after death there is full enlightenment. Another approach are siddhis, which usually isnt emphasised as a part of emptiness realization, though I think there is a sutta talking about DO gives controll over the elements. You probably know this better than I. Maybe some texts answer these question, I think its a good question. Another answer is that to reach this stage, doesnt in fact anilihate the need to drink, sleep and so forth, like biological things stay the same at least some of them. 

Emptiness is not compassion; instead emptiness is none other than form. Not to be clung to.  It should be clearly seen as impermanent, not-self, and a potential source of unsatisfactroriness.  If you cannot clearly see the three characteristics of compassion, then you have a task ahead of you.

- Again from Mahayana perspective compassion and emptiness are seen as the same thing, at a latter stage (in beginning you separete them, from generating to absolute). This is always made very clear, also the main thing separating therevada and mahayana from each other. That beings said, its also said not to cling to it as you say, which means either: 1) its a mean to and end or something to help you on the way you need to generat/relative boddhicitta which is "done"/clung to for a while and/or 2) its the expression of emptiness that there is compassionate activity. 1 and 2 being relative and absolute forms of emtiness.
From Dakini Teachings on how Bodhicitta is seen:

The difference between the greater and lesser vehicles is the arousing of bodhicitta. The difference is created not by the view but by compassion. Therefore keeping the view of the natural state, train yourself in great compassion.

Master Padma said: If you train your mind in love, compassion, and bodhicitta, you will not take rebirth in the three lower realms. Moreover, from this very moment you will never fall back. This alone is my oral instruction. Wherever you go, keep bodhicitta in mind, never departing from its company. Whatever action you engage in, train in doing it for the benefit of sentient beings. Train in regarding others as more important than yourself. You will attain numerous qualities as a result of this training, such as having unimpaired samayas and vows. Unless you cultivate bodhicitta, you will not attain enlightenment, even though you may gain mastery of mantra and be very powerful. All the supreme and common accomplishments will result from bodhicitta arising in your being. That alone is my oral instruction.

Not only nagarjuna, but any Mahayana master is always emphased as being compasionate. I dont think this is a matter of pathos, but what happens when reality is seen as it is.  So full realization of emptiness, is inspereable from compassion.

Here is the book crystal clear, you will find the qotes there. 

Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche - Crystal Clear - Practical Advice for Meditators.pdf


However, if you are awakened these arisings do not stick, and you can choose how to react to them, and you can enjoy them (positive and negative emotions) without creating new karma/sahkhara/programming

- how do you enjoy anger or jealusy if they arise? What is that like? 

You can maybe carry on and erase almost all social programming and biological drives if you really want to, in theory, but the people who do this are usually pretty humble and are prone to dropping dead (likely by choice) - e.g. Paramahansa Yogananda

- because you are humble you decide to die, not sure if I get your point here? Also though I would not talk about erasing social programming and biological drives, thats not the poitn I am trying* to make. But in your view, how would one go about erasing disturbing emotions if not by emptiness insights? 

But I think it is a very common error across many versions of buddhism to confuse awakening during the lifetime with the characteristics of pari-nibbana.

Paranirvanha? I have some shortcommings sorry, I know this is realization after death, but could you elaborate what you mean here? 

 If somebody wants to say negative emotions no longer arise, then I expect they should be able to explain how they arose in the first place. 

I would expect somebody to have direct knowlege of every part of that process (vipassana), and then to have observed how each part could be changed or renounced, and then what happens as a result. After that, I think they would have valuable evidence about the changes to emotion upon awakening.

- Sorry I have not.. my experience is as mentioned earler, when self is seen to have no solidity, then emotions that have arisen due to that deluded perception/ignorance, no longer have a cause to arise. You see others cling to this illusion, and so suffering happens because clinging to an illusion, though you have seen the reality of this so ones own emotions are seen through and dissolve. One is not talking of removing a self, as that would entail that the self is in fact there, but we are talking about the confusion/ignorance of this perception. 
So there is not to say there is no suffering and no confusion, there is, but also there isnt from absolute point of view and never was. When one sees this compassion becomes natural. 
Not all mahayana schools emphasis DO, but it is included in the view that is pointed out,as Mahayana more often take the absolute perspective as the path like in Mahamudra, so some person who has fully realized mahamudra or great perfection should be able to answer this question. There is a handful of them in Pemako sangha, so you could see if they can give an answer this. Also Ratnashree rinpoche goes into DO more than Brown and Kim, very traditional, so you can check out his stuff as it looks more similar to how you practice, I think his books are free on his website

demonstrate that the distinction between negative and positive emotion is somewhat arbitrary.

- Some emotions are obviously just bad if you ask me. Then there are blizz states, intoxications etc.. that are more difficult, but certainly can be something we cling to, and this creates karma and more suffering. About the dog, if a buddha is chased by a dog what would happen, would he have adrenaline, and then fly away? I think if one sees there is no me or other, that no one dies and no one lives, and one see this is the reality of others as well, meaning the dog having actual wakefulness as its core nature, as well as it suffering are scared because of delusion, then reactions will be very very different, compared to someone who thinks the dog is real and you are real, and you die and are separate and all that. What would the buddha do? I dont know, maybe he would run, maybe he would kill the dog, or maybe the dog would notice this person doesnt want to harm him so he backs of and they become friends? Maybe it depends on context, and what is of most benefit for the dog.

Ok, tired now. The first I wrote got deleted so had to write this twice, should be auto save here. But I think these questions are really good, I dont meant this as a competition, and its excellent for me to ponder these things, so hope it doesnt come across that way, looking forward to your reply. 

Cheers.
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Oskar --

Malcolm and Chris, I have thought about the discussion regarding emotions arising after enlightenment vs not arising anymore at all. I said that when self ceases, for longer or shorter moments, there is nothing for emotions to hold on to and so they fade, diminish and stop existing, and there is neither any cause- a self- so they dont arise either. Point is to exhaust all parts of the self, so there is no longer any cause for new disturbing emotions to arise.

I'm not going to revisit the wonderful material posted by Malcomb, but I will say that you should re-think the notion that the self and anything else is annihilated at any point in our practice, however advanced it might be. Practice is not about annihilation. It is about exploration, discovery, and understanding (insight) at many levels. It's about learning and knowing deeply how the mind operates. In doing that, we drop the attachment and clinging we have to all of our reactions - the "good" and the "bad."

You seem to be holding onto an ideal - a belief. Is that how the Buddha suggested we proceed on the path?
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Chris, the ideal is that I have been saying, that full exhaustion is possible and that this means emotions will dissolve, not to supress emotions but thay they will release naturally as one have emtiness insights in many levels as you put it. So in a sense you are right I have this ideal, but so does all Mahayana buddhists, I think its necessary to have some clue about what we are doing and where we are going. But of course "clinging" to it would be a problem. I have put some references in the link, that correspond to what I have written, to me its quite clear this is the view Mahayana holds, not only me. It is in accordance with my own experience, but also it is stated clearly by the video on cessation I posted by thubten chodron, and also the qoutes on mahamudra vipashyana. So I dont see any point in re-thinking it I am afraid, its pretty straight forward. 

How the mind operates. Sure, to me there are two types of mind, enlightened mind (rigpa) and deluded mind (marigpa) meaning ego-clinging and ignorance about rigpa, dukkha. My english and language skills are not good,  but I have tried to communicate this in the latter passage, also emphasising that to have full comprehension of this one needs to fully realize mahamudra or great perfection, which is in accordance with DO, and which I have not realized. 

Oskar
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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I forgot to write. That when one starts out with the view that all dharma/phenomena is empty, this is how one can go about practicing pure perception. With pure perception the teacher points this out to you, so this is how you go about purfying phenomena, or purifying ones deluded perception of external phenomena. 

I meant to write this in the comment about seeing other have perfect wakefullness, buddha nature, as well as accepting the suffering is no contradiction.   
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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I'n no scholar, but I thought the notion that Nirvana is no other than Samsara - and vice versa - came from Mahayana Buddhism? What does that mean to you?
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Oskar, I'm not going to change your mind, nor should I try. You should practice as you see fit. Go where your heart leads you.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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Yes, follow your heart! You seem to have a good one, so you'll be fine. 

I just can't help myself from arguing that it's not true that all Mahayana Buddhists will say that the ideal is to dissolve all bad emotions. Unless of course they all define emotions as the limiting habitual reactive patterns that make feelings sticky, and thereby make a distinction betweeen feelings as something that precedes the stickiness and emotions as the sticky entanglements. 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Linda, haha thanks, thats nice to say, you seem nice and openminded as well <3 emoticon

To answer your question, yes its a "problem" in the sense that this doesnt fit well with most people, we cling strongly to emotions, and the view on reality this pose is so different its scary. I have full symphaty with that, and its not uncommon that one lift a eyebrow or two when someone says stuff like this. No doctors or psychologist teaches this, so it doesnt fit with a western world view either. But let me ask you this, katarsis happens right? In psychology, big emotional release, why does it happen?Also, two people can be in the same accident, one ending up having massive trauma, another doesnt or have smaller traumas. Why is that? Doesnt this suggest that emotions are created by us and our clinging? Thus if clinging drops, meaning seen as empty, so should traumas or? You can define traumas as typical trauma is defined, but to take it a step further, if its created by mind, any situation in which you percieve a self, me and others, there is clinging and accumulation of karma. So your relationship with you parents store trauma, school, and any other situation you might come up with, thats alot of stuff! Or does a buddha have still have issues with his parents?


So again, I am refering to my own experience and what I read, so this is not stuff I come up with to convince others, as Chris say, everyone has to follow their heart, and please do so you too. But if you see any videos with Daniel Brown, he actually states that this pretty clearly, that one of the things that is meant by sangye/full enlightenment, is anilihation of all negative mind states, and flourishing of tons of positive mind states (which might answer your other question about emotions). AND he says he has two of those guys in his sangha, which is pretty cool! Right?! But if my view is wrong, if you find sources saying otherwice, please let me now. I can come of a bit harsh when I want to be right in, and I dont want to say these things if they does not fit with dharma, but as far as I see it, it does.

About your respons, thats its not true at all. Emotions as what I talk about here, I mean sticky stuff created by selfing/deluded perception. So depression, anxiety, anger, fear, jealusy and so forth.. I would say that love, kindness, compassion, joy are rays of minds nature, so I let you keep those emotions, but then I would not call them emotions in the same way because they are not created as due to deluded percieving an ego that does not exist, quite the contrary so this difference is important.

- I'n no scholar, but I thought the notion that Nirvana is no other than Samsara - and vice versa - came from Mahayana Buddhism? What does that mean to you?

Yes, agree with you there. Hmm, sameness of samsara and nirvana. It means as far my knowledge goes these days, what I tried to write in the above text to Malcolm. That a buddha will percieve both the suffering of samsara, as well as seeing that any being however deluded has perfect buddhahood, and that these two statements are not contradictory. And its only a matter of seeing it or not seeing it, or the grasping to the non-existitent mind "creates whole of samsara and nirvana" which you probably have read somewhere.. One have small glimpses of this on the way which gives you some confidence, also when these short glimpses happens, one cannot not feel compassion, so that is why compassion and emptiness goes hand in hand. Also having a teacher that convey this with confidence helps your own practice.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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Just remember that "good" emotions have their own attachments etc entangled. It's the entanglements that are to be exhausted, not the feelings in their pure form. It is possible to enjoy the energy of what we name anger when we see it for what it is, free from all entanglements. It can be tempting to refrain from seeing through the entanglements of emotions that we think of as positive, but that's a trap. And hey, I learned this from Mahayana teachings. 

I do think that some of the differences are due to different use of language, but I get the hunch that there might still be some nuances there for you to explore. 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Linda, "Feelings in their prure from", are they then solid?
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Also Linda, about what I wrote, yesterday, some quotes I found in Buddhahood without meditation that seems to confirm this, from Teachings of Mañjuśrī, the Lion of Speech page 34 (https://wisdomexperience.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Root-Text-Buddhahood-Without-Meditation.pdf): 

What is a buddha in regard to emotions. And seeing sameness of nirvana and samsara:

Since the afflictive and cognitive obscurations are cleansed in the absolute space of phenomena, [340] and the facets of primordial consciousness and sublime qualities are naturally brought to fulfillment, it is called Buddha; and since all phenomena of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa appear in the aspects of coming and going in the expanse of the space of great emptiness, it is called ḍākinī.
...
How seeing sameness of nirvana and samsara generates boddhicitta:
“Throughout the course of beginningless lifetimes, you have grasped at true existence and have fixated on objects, causing you to become very small minded. Now, having come to a decisive understanding of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa as continuous displays of the one pristine awareness, the scope of your mind is expanded. This is the most sublime of all methods for generating bodhicitta
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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It's nice to chat Oskar, and thank you for your good hearted engagement.  I won't repeat myself, but will try to say some things that you might find fresh and interesting.  If there is something specific you want me to address, please ask, but maybe stick to a couple of points so I can be sure to reply to the most important thing.

One the heart sutra, I see this as deep absorption in emptiness. This comes through the shutting down of namarupa with cascading effects on phassa, vedana, tanha, upadana.  I don't see it as the same as nonduality, or loss of ignorance or not-self, or reprogramming of salayatana to create the natural mind. But they are all connected. You might be able to achieve a certain level of emptiness without non-duality, but for the deeper levels you do need non-duality and also changed salayatana. And the reverse is true too.

And from that - emptiness is not the destination.  Pulling up ignorance by the roots is the destination.  Unless you have pulled up ignorance, emptiness will not be fully empty.  The metaphor for emptiness with residual ignorance is dwelling in the heavenly realms. But it is harder to finish waking up in the heavenly realms than in the human realms.

There is definitely an energetic component to emotions as well that I have not described above, as I don't have a reliable western metaphor system for this yet. But I would say that when very absorbed in daily life, and with most sankharas purified, emotions can arise with a kind of jhanic quality to them. This partly seems to be because they are not being pulled at by unskillful impulses. On the path I had marvellous cases of fear and disgust, with the emotions fully present and totally experienced but without any negative vedana at all.  Not a skerrick of negativity.  I also had an experience of celebratory joy that was unbelievably pure and consequently vastly 'superior' to the normal experience of that emotion. These all arose and passed away.  Having had these experiences, I can return to the human realm and see clearly what is happening when emotions arise, see them separately from the vedana, and take them for what they are without any passion obsession or binding. LIke a farmer in gumboots happily walking through a mud puddle without feeling the need to either wallow in it or walk around it - it is just part of the landscape.

It might be fruitful for you to contemplate what is and is not an emotion.  As Linda says, we may be talking about subtly different things.  And discrimination is key ... 

But also, nothing wrong with dwelling in the heavenly realm of semi-emptiness with a subtle selfing process.  It's a fine and wondeful place and much to be admired. The only problem comes when the gods decide they need to intervene in human affairs ... that never ends well, and worst of all for the gods, it's the humans who write the histories! 

The links didn't work for me, sorry. :-(

Malcolm
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Yes, good talk emoticon

One the heart sutra,I see this as deep absorption in emptiness.
You might be able to achieve a certain level of emptiness without non-duality, but for the deeper levels you do need non-duality and also changed salayatana. And the reverse is true too.

what is the difference between absorbtion in emptiness and realizing emptiness? To me the heart sutra describe the realization, and it looks like this means seeing the aggregates as not having real existence, being empty, which as Longchenpa writes comes about by dicerning "outer" phenomena.

Yeah, there are som language issues here. Also I have no clue about most of the pali terms you use f.ex, so cant follow that sorry. Agree that we are talking about levels of emptiness, and semi-emptiness. My point is the mega emptiness, buddhahood, and what that entails, especially in regard to emotions emoticon

And from that - emptiness is not the destination.  Pulling up ignorance by the roots is the destination.  Unless you have pulled up ignorance, emptiness will not be fully empty.  The metaphor for emptiness with residual ignorance is dwelling in the heavenly realms. But it is harder to finish waking up in the heavenly realms than in the human realms.

- hmm, this sounds to sides of the same coin if you ask me. If there is still ignorance, one has not realized emptiness and vice versa. 

On the path I had marvellous cases of fear and disgust, with the emotions fully present and totally experienced but without any negative vedana at all.  Not a skerrick of negativity

- this is quite interesting, and I understand more why you take that stanse. 

It might be fruitful for you to contemplate what is and is not an emotion.  As Linda says, we may be talking about subtly different things.  And discrimination is key ... 

- certainly, I gave some examples of that though, and also would like to hear your respond on the trauma example I posted to Linda? If emotions or traumas are created, how much of it is created? And if it is "all" created as due to deluded perception, should not all of it cease if also the deluded perception ceases/is seen through.
Also you refering to the heaven realm. In Pemako we talk about substrate mind, or this neutral negative, very subtle kind of ignorance. You find it elsewhere too, I am not afraid that is the case, but cool to hear your stories anyway. 

From Buddhahood without meditation: 

Without knowing this mode of being, many people take as their path a passive state of consciousness that does not distinguish between the mind and pristine awareness. They grasp at outer appearances as ethically neutral entities bearing their own intrinsic characteristics. [326] Inwardly, they are tightly bound by the chains of reifying their own bodies as ethically neutral and permanent. In between these two [the outer and inner], as it were, they gain stability in a mere unimpeded, luminous, and cognizant state of consciousness. However, while it is possible that this may constitute a virtue that propels them to the two higher realms of existence, they will not achieve the states of liberation and enlightenment. So this is a flawed approach

Oskar
  
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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the past grows out of the present as much as the future does...a zen master once said, "to go a mile east is to go a mile west"...

to go a mile high is to go a mile deep...
​​​​​​​


from trungpa, cutting through spiritual materialism...


It is important to see that the main point of any spiritual 
practice is to step out of the bureaucracy of ego. This means 
stepping out of ego's constant desire for a higher, more spiri- 
tual, more transcendental version of knowledge, religion, vir- 
tue, judgment, comfort or whatever it is that the particular 
ego is seeking. One must step out of spiritual materialism. If 
we do not step out of spiritual materialism, if we in fact prac- 
tice it, then we may eventually find ourselves possessed of a 
huge collection of spiritual paths. We may feel these spiritual 
collections to be very precious. We have studied so much. We 
may have studied Western philosophy or Oriental philosophy, 
practiced yoga or perhaps have studied under dozens of great 
masters. We have achieved and we have learned. We believe 
that we have accumulated a hoard of knowledge. And yet, 
having gone through all this, there is still something to give 
up. It is extremely mysterious! How could this happen? Im- 
possible! But unfortunately it is so. Our vast collections of 
knowledge and experience are just part of ego's display, part 
of the grandiose quality of ego. We display them to the world 
and, in so doing, reassure ourselves that we exist, safe and 
secure, as "spiritual" people. 
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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the only real achievement is to stop striving and let it happen

no interference, just let it be

only this state of mind can be permanent

only then can one be pure

accepting the mud, the dust, the dirt, the humility, the impermanence, the inconsequence, the inevitability

the mortality

accept suffering as unavoidable

control as unattainable

one finds the desert, at first bitter and sterile

slowly becoming paradise

t



as far as putting the final teachings up front, georges gurdjieff once wrote a book entitled, "Life is only Real, Then, When I Am." ... the title being sufficient, no need read the book...
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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comparing spiritual teachings with someone is like comparing scars...

​​​​​​​old people like to talk about their surgeries...
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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shargrol's checklist...


First comes the ideal, the perfection model: "People need to know that it is indeed possible to get "done", fully purified, entirely sinless..." 

Next comes the inevitable imperfections and sins.

Then there is the choice: honesty? or denial?

Here's the checklist in case anybody needs it:

SAINTS
SAY MEAN DO consistency
Adhere to own moral standards
Pay debts
Keep promises
Truth is highest standard
Insists close associates tell the truth
Un-aggressive philosophy
Attractive but not drawing
Waits for you to seek help
Good reputation endures & improves
Projects & organization grow & improve
In the long run things turn out well
People have long term benefit from association
Have concern for effect of actions on self and others
Will immediately apologize for errors
Look for their own mistakes & will apologize
If trapped will not renounce principles
Typically have good health
Typically have few accidents & injuries
Felt loved when a child
Can sit very still
Encourage associates to be self reliant
Refrains from using mind-dulling substances
Are comfortable being in the background
May adopt a spiritual name one time
PSYCHOPATHS
SAY MEAN DO disparity
Breaks own rules
Many bad debts, writes bad checks
Break promises
No true regard for truth
Tell close associates to lie
Push philosophy aggressively
Attractive and drawing
Comes on with unsolicited advice
Cood reputation fades in time
Projects & organization degenerate
In the long run things turn out badly
People are damaged by long term association
Are unconcerned for effect of actions on self and others
Apologize as last resort
Ignore their own mistakes and apologizes only if cornered
If trapped will do or say anything to escape
Typically have variable exotic health problems
Typically have many accidents and injuries
Felt unloved when a child
Can sit still only when center of attention
Enslave people around them
Substance abuse common
Compulsion to become the center of attention
Adopt many aliases


​​​​​​​makes me want to get a tattoo...
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

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Again, I am not enlightened. And there are not a hundred enlightened people in the sangha, to be precice I think we are just about 80 people. That being said 5 of those have completed their path, and this happened this year, not from the time I think you are refering to. does these distinctions make sense you think?

Oskar



   It takes one to know one. No enlightened person cam be seen by anyone who is not enlightened. Aka nonduality. So, you are taking their word for it, trusting your untrustworthy judgment, taking it on faith, or just bullshitting for fun and profit.

   To answer your question - you asked - no the distinctions do not make sense, as you could not possibly know what you are talking about, being not enlightened. By your own definitions.

   I strongly suspect that by next year you will have a whole new set of propositions which seem like truth to you. And you will retail them with every appearance of whole-heartedness.

   Were you loved as a child?

terry



my friend
​​​​​​​(steve miller band)

So you think you know just what goes on inside your head, my friend
There is so much more than you and I can comprehend
Things that make you laugh, things that make you cry
Let you love when you feel like you wanna die

There's no answer to the questions that we find inside, my friend
But when we start to wonder why, we wind up further behind, my friend
All we see has always been shown
But there's so many things that I've never known

So you think you know, my friend
But you don't know, my friend, my friend
You think you know
But you don't know

All for one and one for all
It's everything or nothing at all
Listen, my friend
You don't know
No, my friend
You don't know
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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how do you know I'm not enlightened?

​​​​​​​my lips are moving...
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

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I remember kim now, he expressed contempt for the poor benighted folk who adhere to the very much lesser vehicle...

you can't get pregnant from a small penis was his thesis...

went off in huff when his nonsense was easily refuted...

​​​​​​​aloha kim
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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oskar said:

I have very good experience with Kim and Pemako, so I dont have a problem promiting it. Experienced meditators, that depends on what you mean by that, to me it depends on insight and thats it really. 

   It should go without saying that some on this forum might have some insights that have yet to occur to you, but I agree that a fresh look by us jaded practicioners is not a bad idea. As seen by the participation and much carefully reasoned thought by people worth joining and listening to.

   You may not fully understand that insight and long term meditation skills are two very different things. The skills are dearly won by long practice, like playing an instrument or doing crafts or athletics at a high level. Insight, like words, is cheap and easily duplicated; even packaged and sold. Just cut and paste.

   Beware the attraction of turning spiritual things to account.

terry


dogen zenji once said, "A zen monastery is a place where you can be silent for ten years and not be thought dumb."

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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

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from zen mind, beginner's mind, shunryu suzuki:


In zazen what you are doing is not for the sake of anything. You may feel as if you are doing something special, but actually it is only the expression of your true nature; it is the activity which appeases your inmost desire. But as long as you think you are practicing zazen for the sake of something, that is not true practice.

If you continue this simple practice every day you will obtain a wonderful power. Before you attain it, it is something wonderful, but after you obtain it, it is nothing special. It is just you yourself, nothing special. As a Chinese poem says, "I went and I returned. It was nothing special. Rozan is famous for its misty mountains; Sekko for its water." People think it must be wonderful to see the famous range of mountains covered by mists, and the water said to cover all the earth. But if you go there you will just see water and mountains. Nothing special.

It is a kind of mystery that for people who have no experience of enlightenment, enlightenment is something wonderful. But if they attain it, it is nothing. But yet it is not nothing. Do you understand? For a mother with children, having children is nothing special. That is zazen. So, if you continue this practice, more and more you will acquire something— nothing special, but nevertheless something. You may say "universal nature" or "Buddhanature" or "enlightenment." You may call it by many names, but for the person who has it, it is nothing, and it is something.
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Terry. I dont see any point discussing with you as you seem to be  more keen on attacking me and you have some issues with Kim. If you want to discuss, ask question and share opinions be my guest, but the rambling, trungpa quotes and psychopath lists and "Were you loved as a child?", and continiously impliyng things instead of straightforward say what you mean, has little or nothing to do with the discussion and are disrespectful. If you want to syncronize your issues with my posts into a comprehensive post, I will answer as best I can, but not like this. If it continues moderator should do something. 

The following ground rules have been adopted:

  • No name-calling or ad hominem attacks
  • No on-and-on repetitious, angry rants that marshal no supporting evidence, target an interlocutor, and have the effect of intimidating the interlocutor.
  • No taunting, mocking, or intimidation of an individual or a group on the basis of race/ethnicity, sex, disability (including mental illness), sexual orientation, religious preference, or spiritual practice

Oskar
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

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I apologize for the way deathray puts wierd stuff into my posts.

Other than that, you appear to be a typical true believer in that you appear to have no sense of humor. Only a simulated one.

You obviously have no idea what negative emotions truly are, so mistake what I say for attacks on you personally. You wouldn't do that if you were enlightened, ask your buddhas.

The stage of spiritual growth that you represent is a transient one, fortunately for you, and others.

Same as you interpret your guru's negative emotions to be positive, you interpret my words to be negative. 

As long as you contnuously turn the truth on its head, you will find nonagreement or a lack of response. Typically true believers find in that a confirmation of their beliefs, and pride themselves on their ability to take ot, maybe even seek out vituperation to practice their "purity" and freedom from negative emotions.

In the end this is just the typical sort of time-filling exercises the spiritual leisure class engages in to exhaust their time as mortals.

Hey, a guy has to something. Beats working, eh?

I'm resigned to you just thinking this is more negative jazz at your expense. Someday you may realize we are trying to help you and your fellow sufferers in the cult.

Someday maybe you will turn around and try to help your poor buddhas escape egohood.

Relieve suffering.

(It's ironic that the attackers feel attacked, and seek accomdations they do not grant others)


(a little laughter might abjure the destructive violence of mindlessness)


terry
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Aight, gosh if thats how it is. You say stuff and you are kind of funny sometimes, but also I get annoyd. Never thought I was a truth seeker in the way you put it, but maybe I am? I have read the stuff Malcolm posts and they are good, really appreciate that, seriously. So I guess we will stay in touch then?
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

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at least the methodists didn't go around claiming they were christs...
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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Since compassion has been subject to debate in this thread, I'll add this, just in case the nuance makes a difference: The Tibetan word nin-jee (I frankly have no idea how to spell it, so bear with me) which is usually translated to compassion is not the same thing as compassion in the ordinary sense of the word. It's more of a complete openheartedness, not something that one individual can feel for another being in a subject-object benefactor relationship. 

It's a feeling not yet entangled with stuff. It's also sort of a stance that can be cultivated as more of a default. 
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Linda, yes good point!

Its different how therevadans practice Karuana, and how mahayana goes about compassion.
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Months ago.

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Oskar, you ask "what is the difference between absorbtion in emptiness and realizing emptiness?"

Realizing emptiness is being unbound from the autonomic default process of applying conceptual overlays to clusters of perceptions. It is a suspension of the conceptual component of experience. Being absorbed in emptiness is a jhanic-like state where you temporarily drive non-naming down to very detailed level of neurobiological pre-processing of sensations, occupying almost all of your attention. As you become unbound, or at different stages along the path, it is likely that you will be concentrated and absorbed enough experience absoprtion in emptiness . But this is a side effect. The main effect is to become unbound so you can just accept sensations as sensations, without having to categorise them as tables, chairs, elephants, people and so on. Emptiness is then simply a background feature of your life (realisation of emptiness), rather than being the focus of all your attention (absorption in emptiness).

.... And you were asking about trauma.  For these I use the metaphor sankharas. The path of awakening requires that you purify enough of them to become unbound, not that you purify all of them. So the person who reaches the end of the path of insight is not a blank sheet of paper. They are like the ashes of a fire or the stump of a banana tree; there is a residue remaining that they still have to deal with.  Here is a picture from the web so you can see what uncle Sid meant when he talked about arhats as the stump of a banana tree.  Why do you think he chose a banana tree for his metaphor? 

https://therootcause.com.au/wp-content/uploads/IMG_4987-scaled.jpg

So if you want to purify all sankharas, great. Everybody needs a hobby. But it is not what Uncle Sid taught, and it is not what is in the Suttas. You just need to see your sankharas clearly enough to unbind from them. The problem with seeking to purify all sankharas is very straightforward - it easily becomes a passion obsession (clinging) that prevents unbinding.  In fact, I think Hindus sometimes criticise Buddhism in eactly this way, that it is a system built to prevent people from waking up (of course Hindu progress faces exactly the same problems, with passionate absorption in the substrate mind, as you call it).

Also, to be clear, the examples I cited of fear, disgust and joy are not the reasons for my understanding on emotions. They are just observational examples to prove the point that emotions are separate from vedana.  

Now, a challange for you Oskar!  What are the differences and relationships between hormones, psychological affect, emotion, trauma and sankhara?  Can you observe these differences internally and describe them precisely on this forum?  Can you vipassanise and report back?  Can you make use of all our talk?

Malcolm
George S, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Holy shit that's a good explanation Malcolm! emoticon​​​​​​​
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Months ago.

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Thanks George!  After many years of pragmatic dharma I have now achieved realisation of, and sometimes absorption in, the skill of arguing with people on internet forums.  emoticon
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takes a lot of skill in means to work in muddy conditions and not get dirty...

​​​​​​​(gassho)
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Right. 

I think its clear that the description in the heart sutra states the realization, being unbound, and not an absorbtion. 

So the person who reaches the end of the path of insight is not a blank sheet of paper

- Right, we have different views on this. And I understand that my stressing the purification of negative mind states, sounds like holding the view that buddhism is about being blank, but this is not what I am trying to say. If its "blank" we are talking about just another kind of clinging to substrate f.ex.

Why do you think he chose a banana tree for his metaphor? 

- I think, because the arhats value anatta realization not emptiness of all phenomena as in Mahayana, so that we are talking about different realizations here, the stump necessarily will be there,  its very subtle and the arhat seems to have no problem navigating its seems, barely clinging to it. I dont have a problem with this notion of an arhat, and so you probably are right in what you are saying. 

So if you want to purify all sankharas, great. Everybody needs a hobby. But it is not what Uncle Sid taught, and it is not what is in the Suttas. You just need to see your sankharas clearly enough to unbind from them

- So my answered is seeing the emptiness of all phenomena, not a persistent one by one investigation, though some of that is required too, as you put it. But realization of no time, space, and external world, in short the aggregates as exemplefied in the Heart Sutra. I have been refering quite often to Daniel Brown, he goes 1, awakening (gate), 2 anatta (gate), 3, time and space (paragate) 4, all inner and outer appearances (parasamgate), bodhi svaha (his take on heart sutra mantra). 

Now, a challange for you Oskar!  What are the differences and relationships between hormones, psychological affect, emotion, trauma and sankhara?  Can you observe these differences internally and describe them precisely on this forum?  Can you vipassanise and report back?  Can you make use of all our talk?

- Ok, will try emoticon 
1. On traumas and sankhara, I think as a kid you cling to a self and others (and probably same in previous lifes), and again this differs in strength, which is the point I tried to make earlier. Clinging to the "I" and "you" makes you see this action as good and that action as bad, as they yield different outcome for the kids "I", craving and aversion. This as you know causes pain and suffering at some point. It differs among people, like two siblings can have different views on parents divorse. So traumas in this sense can be propper trauma, and milder things, like social anxiety, depression, though still binds you. So there is a very wide range of shankaras, and they accumulate as long as there are any type of beliefe in a self.
2. Emotions. Some emotions, I would just call shankaras/traumas, by the description I just gave. Any sort of habitual reaction that has been prgrammed from early age and still is going. 
Then you have examples like sometimes anger is necessary, one needs to use strength, force, wrath to make a point or even help someone. You can do yourself and others a disservice by not doing so. So essentially, its no problem this force or power. But if clung to, if say you take this to be the way you need to behave for surviving, to get to god or bad, and carries with you to situations where it doesnt make sense anymore, then it is no longer a "constructive" emotions, but a trauma, something that is stuck, and causes pain. And again, its held like this because there is still a beliefe in a self that though he/she needed it at some point. Though doesnt have to be like that an emotion,meaning just constructive.
3. Psychological affects, are we here talking about love, kindness and these things? if so, I think some are expression of ones natural state, like I think it happens that parents when getting a child, or people getting married and so forth, also being in nature, can cause moments of real selfless kindness. On the other hand love can get "blizzy" and intoxicating, so this is not the same clearity anymore, and it entails clinging again, which at some point can get out of hand. Like very close relations to other people often ends up being the biggest shankaras. Also we cling to acceptance from others, or trust, or safety, all of these can turn "dark" so to speak, getting one into wierd survival modes and relational problems, though essentially can be very good things too. So my answer here is that, some of it is good, and some of it becomes sankharas. 
4.  Hormones are getting horny aroused from others bodies, as well as puberty and changes in the body.
So again, I never meant to say that one anilihate biology how I put things, though I understand it can look that way. So if a kid realize anatta at age 6, he would not have a self and not reach puberty, that doesnt make sense, but it is intresting speculating it if it would make a difference ?emoticon So hormones are completely natural and should happen, nothing to say on that, but there are again traumas assosiated with this too, from big to small ones, right? Doesnt mean the problem is biology though. In the same way as a 6 year old not reaching puberty is a silly example, so is sterelizing all monks, problem solved right?!  Also there are practices like Karmamudra, which could yield things like, after finnishing practice, you cant get a boner. So obviously there are problems here, totally on board with you on that. 

You say that shankaras and emotions arise, but you can chose to act on them, which sounds good, I have nothing to add to this. Though I am saying if all ignorance is seen through, the causes for all shankaras are destroyd, and from what I wrote now, alot is in fact shankaras. So I am not trying to negate biology (maybe negate some psychology), but saying that when clinging happens due to fixation, many natural expressions, like anger or sex, becomes sticky  aka shankaras.
If there is no clinging, one can use wrath if needed and all the other things mentioned, and one is not held back by fear! This I think has immense benefit for people around you, and is also a big point. And what I tried to exemplify with the buddha chased by a dog, how much of a difference this would have. Also the non meditation stage/last realization often states there is no hope and no fear, which does say fear is "deleted", isnt that interesting? This doesnt yield the answer that one become a corpse unable to act, or careless, blank and so forth, as in the example I gave. Also that boddhicitta is inseperable from this state, and have posted a quote from Dudjom Lingpas book on this. To once again qote Daniel Brown, after reaching sangye there are tons of arising of positive qualities that is the nature of ones mind, buddhanatur.
So then there is the question, isnt that the same as what you said, that they still arise? I would not put it like that, becuase 1) about shankaras, they should all drop as a matter of emptiness realization, not anatta but all phenomena, non should be left, and 2) I dont think this has a anihilating effect on biolog, you should be able to have kids, get puberty and all those things. 
About vipassanise my own things and looking inside. Alot is still there, but it has happened so many times that they releases, and its always due to emptiness/vipashyana practice, that its clear to me that fear especially is still "overprogrammed" due to fixation that I have not cut through, and yes, I expect it to realise if I ever get to that realisation. Can I say what they are? I can percieve my energy body more than before, and see that constopated channels are "stuck" due to fixation, and the contraction of these channels causes anxiety and anger as in the sense of shankaras. This has had, and still have effect on my biology, like hormones, stress, and other things, which to some degree bridges these two things, though I cant say how much. 

This was said in one of the retreats I joined, and I think it puts it better than I can, as the question we are really arguing over. 

Activities that are graceful, heroic, terrifying, compassionate, furious, arrogant, possessive and envious all without exception are perfect forms of pure, self-illuminated wisdom.”
-Sahajayoginicinta, ancient female master of tantric buddhism, from Daniel Odiers book
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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one of them said:


I was going to say yes, but Trevors explanation is better, though I would add that that the range of a human beings emotion is there, though the pain is gone. So a buddha, like Guru Rinpoche, would express wrath to benefit others, though he himself feels no pain. A phrase I have read several times when it comes to last realization is that there is no hope or fear anymore. So I guess a buddha do not experience fear. 

I think yes no dicothomy does disservice to the question and dialogue Chris, sorry.



   I think this is where the bullshit begins to get really deep, when an enlightened being supposedly free of "negative" emotions can "express wrath" without identification for the benefot of other beings,

   If you believe a person to "be a buddha" then you can rationalize whatever they do and call it whatever you want. Their shit literally does not stink.

   Rinzai gave the best advice: "If you meet the buddha, kill the buddha."

   After all, they are ready to die.

terry
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

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you guys ought to bring around one of your buddhas to talk to us, we could have great fun with one of those...

​​​​​​​(feral grin)
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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malcolm said:<br /><br /><em>Nope, keep going.&nbsp; Lightly, with joy and curiosity, happiness for yourself and others, in a spirit of kindness, and with knowledge of the love and support reaching out to you from the many others on the journey.<br /><br /><img alt="emoticon" src="https://www.dharmaoverground.org/o/classic-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" /><br /><br />Malcolm<br /><br /><br />&nbsp; &nbsp;</em><br />&nbsp;I feel you, bra. Reminds me of the heavenly abodes.<br /><br />(and a little more light peeks out from behind the veil)<br /><br /><br />t
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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deathray strikes again<br />its a wonder I can post at all
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

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malcolm said:

One interesting feature is that, with increased mind-body efficiency and the removal of limiting factors, there is a tendency towards extraordinary hard work and stupid overachievement, together with some impact of this on tranquility. I have noticed this with at least five others who seem to have a similar mind-body state but don’t live in monasteries - work work work work work.


   Yah, me too. Workahol is addictive and socially acceptable so ends up by default as a drug of choice if not in a monastery or ashram.

   Keeps my mind off of my troubles, and makes recreation lots more fun when it follows lots of hard work.

   There is no end of work to do.

terry


the house at pooh corner
​​​​​​​(loggins and messina)

Christopher Robin and I walked along
Under branches lit up by the moon
Posing our questions to Owl and Eeyore
As our days disappeared all too soon
But I've wandered much further today than I should
And I can't seem to find my way back to the wood
So help me if you can, I've got to get
Back to the house at Pooh Corner by one
You'd be surprised, there's so much to be done
Count all the bees in the hive
Chase all the clouds from the sky
Back to the days of Christopher Robin and Pooh
Winnie the Pooh doesn't know what to do
Got a honey jar stuck on his nose
He came to me asking help and advise
And from here no one knows where he goes
So I sent him to ask of the owl if he's there
How to loosen the jar from the nose of a bear
So help me if you can, I've got to get
Back to the house at Pooh Corner by one
You'd be surprised, there's so much to be done
Count all the bees in the hive
Chase all the clouds from the sky
Back to the days of Christopher Robin and Pooh
It's hard to explain how a few precious things
Seem to follow throughout all our lives
After all's said and done I was watching my son
Sleeping there with my bear by his side
So I tucked him in, kissed him
And as I was going
I swear that old bear whispered
Boy, welcome home!
Believe me if you can, I've got to get
Back to the house at Pooh Corner by one
What do you know, there's so much to be done
Count all the bees in the hive
Chase all the clouds from the sky
Back to the days of Christopher Robin and Pooh
Back to the ways of Christopher Robin and Pooh
Back to the ways of Pooh




​​​​​​​
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Oskar 

1. "The aggregates as exemplified in the heart sutra" is new to me.  This seems like a palimpest, a new definition of the aggregates, but I am not sure what you mean without a precise description.

2. I see gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate cessation, cessation, unbinding of perceptions, final release.  Not quite the same, although not a million miles away.  A key problem is the lack of definitions of things like "inner and outer appearances" and "exhaustion of all phenomena".  You have been unable to provide an objective description of these.

3. Your response does not vipassinise the things I mentioned, it just talks about them rather than reporting directly observered phenomenology from your own experience.  

Now if you want to pursue your own version of the five aggregates and cling to exhuastion of all phenomena then that is your choice. Good luck!  It is not the teaching of Uncle Sid, and I suspect you are missing the subtleties of the Tibetan masters who are using these things as metaphors for something, but that's fine you can do your own thing. However, it does look rather religious, and the practices look like programming of new sankharas. 

In short, it is apparent that you are having things added, not subtracted, through your dharma.

If you see this as somehow superior to what we are doing on this forum, that is your choice.  But the arguments don't seem very persuasive. When you prod them they continuously retreat to some ineffeable phenomena that is not clearly described and seems unfalsifiable.  So instead of "come and see for yourself" we have "this is what the authorities say and we are more holy than you."  I suspect talking to the original Tibetan masters would give quite a different view, as they know what their metaphors are referring to, and this is something you have yet to discover I think.

So if you would like to discuss this further, I need more precise descriptions of what you are referring to.  Hopefully I have fulfilled my end of the bargain on that.

Cheers

Malcolm
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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On aggregates from the heart sutra: The Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara,while practicing the profound prajnaparamita, clearly saw that all five skandhas are empty, thus overcoming all suffering.
Isnt this the aggregates we are talking about? Saw aggregates goes as form, connsiousness, realisation further is no eyes, nose tounge etc.. this comes about in Longchenpas qote I posted:
Since what are not objects are misconstrued as objects, there are the five kinds of sense objects, and since what has no identity is invested with identity, there are the five afflictive emotions.
This sounds to me to mirror exactly what the heart sutra says, poitning out that misconstrued (appearing) outer objects as the root of the five sense objects. Thus in truth there is no eyes, ears, nose... 

point I am making on vippassana, seeing them as they are, is that seeing there is no "I", liberates them. They appear as solid due to fixating, and causes suffering. They are not truly solid because the self is not. I dont know how I can go about this differently, so sorry about that. 

If you see this as somehow superior to what we are doing on this forum, that is your choice.
- If you refer to anatta vs full exhaution distincion I am making.  I have been refering to several others that makes this distincion, so its missleading saying its is something I have invented or its my own sort of dharma or religion, its there in the open. 

But the arguments don't seem very persuasive.

thats fine, it has been many good topics here, I appreciate you taking the time. So thanks for that.

Have a good night

Oskar
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terry, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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While it is pointless to argue with lawyers who defend their points at any cost with fallacies, misdirection, avoidance, and impeachment, (not to mention flattery and condemnation, to divde people) some assumptions should not be left unchallenged.

This whole thing about "negative emotions." The idea that there is some unbiased judge who can determine what is positive and what is negative so we know what to embrace and what to avoid is nonsense. We cannot depend on authorities to determine what is right for us. The buddha taught us in the parinibbana sutta to submit all propositions to our own reason.

One possesses a full palette of emotions, based on neurochemical transmitters and cascades. All of them find use in a healthy organism.

Where does religion usefully impact our emotional states? By encouraging love and truth as opposed to hate and ignorance.

One may engage in the full range of emotions and if they are motivated by love, they will benefit sentient beings, at least as much as we can. One can have only positive emotions and if they are motivated by hate and division, bad things will happen and people will suffer. Hitler was a vegetarian who loved his dog.

Love is all-inclusive.

terry
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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malcolm said


Aloha terry - I see you!  Or Kia Ora, as we say in my country.

And for the analytically minded (which is of course not compulsory) I would just note that the objects of these discussions can be turned into practice, if you want. They are dharmas, or mind objects, or the fourth frame of reference, from the satipatthana sutta. They can be subject to mindful investigation in the way specified in that sutta for that frame of reference. They are also related to stage 9 of anapansati - experiencing the mind - but then they have to be let go in stages (I would provisionally say stage 10 for sankharas, 12 for cravings, 14 for duality, 15 for concepts, 16 for the dharma itself). And this process can be supported by deeper TMI-style concentration (11) and vipassana (13).

Although frankly, now that I know that spinning a prayer wheel while watching Love Island is a viable alternative, I'm starting to regret my choices. emoticon 

​​​​​​​Malcolm



all these technical terms, especially numbered ones, make my glazed eyes shut altogether...

now that I know just sitting is a viable option, I don't concern myself with practices...

you sound really on top of your game, bra, happy for you...

​​​​​​​t
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Kia ora terry.  I have an analytical tendency, and sometimes I get a bit absorbed in it as some people seem find it helpful.  But that too will pass.  Ultimately it is all about letting go, right?  However you get there.   

Love, Malcolm
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we're here!

welcome home
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oskar:


To answer your question, yes its a "problem" in the sense that this doesnt fit well with most people, we cling strongly to emotions, and the view on reality this pose is so different its scary. I have full symphaty with that, and its not uncommon that one lift a eyebrow or two when someone says stuff like this. No doctors or psychologist teaches this, so it doesnt fit with a western world view either.


But people are ever willing to believe the impossible if it accords with their desires. It should be completely obvious that in nonduality there are no negative and positive. Countless mahayana texts could be adduced, patticularly from nagarjuna, but taking the completely spurious seriously only encourages more words until truth is just pushed aside by the torrent. The man is not listening.

I'm only responding again because I found oskar's comment pretentious and patronizing. 

Don't want to repeat myself without point. Most of us have hashed over all of this material many times. I try to have fun with it and emphasize the basics, always easy to lost touch with.

t

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Oskar, thanks.  Yes, no problem with the traditional five aggregates - I thought you meant something else.

Now, you are saying all this is in the open.  Then I think the issue here may arise from translating kleshas as afflictive emotions or negative emotions and thinking they are to be elimated.  This is a misreading - instead, they are to lose their ability to disturb the mind.  The problem is not the emotion, it is the defilement, or the fetter.  There is a passage in the maha satipatthana sutta that makes this quite clear.

"Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media? There is the case where he discerns the eye, he discerns forms, he discerns the fetter that arises dependent on both. He discerns how there is the arising of an unarisen fetter. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of a fetter once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of a fetter that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining sense media: ear, nose, tongue, body, & intellect.)"

So it is the fetter, not the form or the sense organ, that is to be abandoned.  Yes you can see through the form and the sense organ as empty, but that does not mean you erase them, just that you recognise them as an dependently arising process rather than a separate enduring thing - like the ocean, or a car, or a tree, or the wind, or the universe. Emotions are of course just more form, plus perception and feeling, and some sankharas, and some attention.  If you blame the emotion, you are blaming something else for your reaction to it, and in doing so solidifying a duality.  Might as well burn a witch to make yourself feel better.

So to say that afflictive emotions are to be elimated is a straight out error in interpretation of the original Tibetan or Sanskrit.  Even wikipedia has this more or less right.

"All Buddhist schools teach that through Tranquility (Samatha) meditation the kilesas are pacified, though not eradicated, and through Insight (Vipassana) the true nature of the kilesas and the mind itself is understood. When the empty nature of the Self and the Mind is fully understood, there is no longer a root for the disturbing emotions to be attached to, and the disturbing emotions lose their power to distract the mind"

And this is exactly what we have been saying to you.

So believing that negative emotions are to be eradicated never to arise again is wrong and likely to cause great harm.  Causing them to lose their power to disturb the mind is the correct path. You seem unable to see this, perhaps due to clinging to a teaching that has led you astray.  I don't know if this is Kim's teaching or your own interpretation, but please investigate the translation of Kleshas and what is to be done with them in the source Tibetan texts. Don't believe me, go back to the source.  See for yourself.  Find a Tibetan geshse or Rinpoche and ask them.  Don't settle for the dharma trotted out to pacify the peasants - you can understand the real thing. 

Good luck and much love. 

Malcolm
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Ok. I have understood the point of "emotions loose their ability to distract your mind", it just does not sound like the same realization as the people and qotes I have been reffering too. "Dependetly arising process"  hmm.. I will look into this some more as well as kleshas.

​​​​​​​I think we should let the topic rest a bit for now, will do some thinking untill next time emoticon 

Oskar 
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Oskar Aas:
Ok. I have understood the point of "emotions loose their ability to distract your mind", it just does not sound like the same realization as the people and qotes I have been reffering too. "Dependetly arising process"&nbsp; hmm.. I will look into this some more as well as kleshas. I think we should let the topic rest a bit for now, will do some thinking untill next time emoticon&nbsp; Oskar&nbsp;
<br /><br />Yes, we have given the topic a good thrashing!&nbsp; Thanks for your kind hearted engagement Oskar.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br /><br />Malcolm
Oskar Aas, modified 2 Months ago.

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Malcolm you there? emoticon

Saw this short article by Kim and thought I post it to you as it concerns our previous topic, not sure if it sits well with you or not but thought I should share it anyway. 
Hope youre doing well. 

Oskar

"Open Heart Blog: Emotions of the Enlightened Mind" http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2021/11/emotions-of-enlightened-mind.html?m=1
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Oskar Aas Malcolm you there? emoticon Saw this short article by Kim and thought I post it to you as it concerns our previous topic, not sure if it sits well with you or not but thought I should share it anyway.&nbsp; Hope youre doing well.&nbsp; Oskar "Open Heart Blog: Emotions of the Enlightened Mind" http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2021/11/emotions-of-enlightened-mind.html?m=1

Hi Oskar, yeah that looks like the right stuff; Kim has a different metaphor system from me but certainly seems to be saying something similar.

One tiny point is that in my experience emotions became self-liberating for a while, with a kind of shamantha-like evaporation of the psychic charge as soon as it was seen, but then eventually liberation became unnecessary, a form of clinging. Things just are. So there was a kind of two-stage process.

Also, to be clear in our previous discussion, tranquility is definitely much increased, but a perfection of tranquility is a temporary occurence on the path that falls away; Eventually, it is equanimity that is predominant; I believe this is what the Suttas say and there is also a nice quote from Jiddu Krishnamurthi:

“I don’t mind what happens. That is the essence of inner freedom. It is a timeless spiritual truth: release attachment to outcomes, deep inside yourself, you’ll feel good no matter what.”

And emotions are part of what happens.

Much love

Malcolm
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Right. Yes he is very keen on using his own language.

Have to say I read part of our discussion again and I totally ignored some of you points, so my apologiez for that, really did us both a disfavor. Still it was a good chat though, reading about depentent origination now emoticon
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Emotions are part of what happens. But eqanimity is stable.. looking forward to that. I never meant to hold a flat buddhist view, but to be honest I have struggled alot with this substrate shit in my own practice which leaves you just like that, flat and scared. Really want this shit to end, which I think has affected practice poorly in terms of too much aversion. so it kind of hit a nerve for me our discussion if I really did something wrong or what? like you end up with almost no expression, but then this complete spontaneity have happened a few times too recently so its seem to moving in the right direction though slowly, like centerless as you wrote here somewhere emoticon 
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Also asked another one in the sangha and she wrote beautifully I think: 

because there is no selfing left, and everything is expressed naturally all that comes out is a pure emotion. 

Sure I get angry, but without any friction or hooks. I feel love, bit not in a blissfull way. I want sex, in a not needy selfless way. I get sad and cry because I feel the pain of others. 

I have started having these spontaneous love fitts more and more, so much love to you too Malcolm emoticon 

Oskar
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Noticing the aversion is really good Oskar.  Seeing it, naming it, exploring it, accepting it, then letting it evaporate like the morning dew. - M.
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Hi Malcolm, just read through some of our discussion again, may I ask a question, and maybe we ponder this some more emoticon?&nbsp;<br /><br />"Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in &amp; of themselves with reference to the&nbsp;<em>sixfold internal &amp; external sense media.</em>&nbsp;And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in &amp; of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal &amp; external sense media? There is the case where he discerns the eye, he discerns forms,&nbsp;<em><strong>he discerns the fetter that arises dependent on both</strong></em>. He discerns how there is the arising of an unarisen fetter. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of a fetter once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of a fetter that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining sense media: ear, nose, tongue, body, &amp; intellect.)"<br /><br />- The fetter is the mental though/clinging right? I dont understand what it means that there is an "arising of an unarising fetter".. does it mean that the fetter/thought is dependent on sense object and sense organ for its arising? If there it all arise dependent on causes then there no arising (not being a first cause or anything like that)..? Or does it mean something else..?&nbsp;<br />Also had a quick look at wikipedia, and it says there are many kinds of fetter, does that mean many kinds of wrong notions/thought or believes one needs to get through, so basically translated thoughts/beliefes? Or am I wrong to translate it that way?<br />Many question marks, hope thats ok.&nbsp;<br /><br />Sincerly Oskar&nbsp;
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Hi Oskar, sure you are welcome to ask and I am happy to share my views.

The fetter arises from wallowing in passion for, or resistance to, the object. This wallowing creates reinforcement of that behaviour (sankhara/karma) and the object becomes attached to the delusional dualistic sense of self. "I exist because I want/hate that". Modern politics is a great example - I hate therefore I am, which becomes perversely reassuring if the subconcious realisation of not-self is too scary to contemplate.

So yes fetters are jointly dependent on the sense organs and the sense objects - hence the advice to guard the six sense doors.  But no fetters are not the mental thought or belief. Rather they are the binding to an object, leading to automatic urges when the object is seen. Because of the fetter the object pushes your buttons whenever it arises. So there are as many potential fetters as there are different types of objects. The ultimate source of fetters is not right or wrong action, but rather ignorance as to the true nature of the perceptual world. Right action can be just as much a fetter as wrong action - Uncle Sid called his son 'Fetter'!!!!

Right action does calm sankharas to allow more tranquility and equanimity (similar to mindfulness). It supports insight, just as concentration supports insight. If you want to dwell in right action, that's really cool and perfectly fine (although not the end of the path of insight). But there are examples in the Sutta's of right action that are horrible to us, such as completely ignoring your starving wife and child, who are pleading with you to support them, just so that you stay in Jhana. In the suttas, that particular yogi was praised as a true Brahmin while his wife was criticised for her appalling behaviour. So right action is contextual, and part of the path, but not the final answer.

And remember, it is not desire or emotion that is the fetter, it is the binding. Uncle Sid didn't mind fully awakened monks getting notiecably drunk, and Drukpa Kunley claimed to be a Buddha but converted Bhutan through a rampage of sex and drinking.

Hope this helps

Malcolm

(Edit: Next time I have to manually remove the "&nbsp;" I think I will replace them all with "fnord").
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Thank you Malcolm emoticon 

-  Rather they are the binding to an object, leading to automatic urges when the object is seen.

Two thoughts come to mind: if its not a wrong thought/belief what is "the binding" then, could you exemplefy this more in way spesifically? And object is seen I guess can mean both; actually see the bottle of wine as well as thinking of a bottle of wine?

- but rather ignorance as to the true nature of the perceptual world.

But how then pin this down? Like if ignorance is not a thought, not a feeling this ignorance, how is it defined? 

Also, is this how you go about dependent origination, like understanding how each link is a fetter of some kind, and investigate the truth of that fetter? so death or becomming or touch is investigated as a fetter, and then you go about it one by one (not sure if this is stupid question or not, but here we go emoticon)?

Lol, I dont know why this %/&%¤& happens with some posts, it does that sometimes and sometimes I fix the note, but other time I just dont wanna emoticon
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No worries [fnord] Oskar.

Binding arises from passionate engagement, and supports the dualistic illusion of a separate self by creating a relationship between the 'self' and the bound 'object'. Binding creates a fetter, and this triggers more passionate engagement on further contact, reinforcing the binding and turning the wheel of samara. It's like a donkey pursuing a carrot in front of its nose that it sees whenever it glances up. It is more of a process than a thing. So binding is not the object, or the sense organ, but the fetter that arises contingent on both. Think of it as a mild behavioural addiction to a non-existent object in the next room. Or a Kafkaesque futile striving to obtain some dimly perceived goal that is in fact unobtainable.

Ignorance has many definitions. For you today Oskar, I will define it as living with the subsconcious belief that world consists of separate things with independent enduring essences that can be possessed, instead of seeing clearly that the self and indeed all perceptual reality is merely an interdependent process with porous boundaries, existing in a field of sensations on which perceptual and conceptual processing is overlaid.  Ignorance is destroyed by knowing this clearly from direct experience, after having all required firmware and software upgrades to allow this knowledge to develop and persist without effort, for example by following the Noble Eightfold Path.

The problem with ignorance is that it leads us to pursue concepts that have no separate existence, so although we fetter ourselves to their pursuit and ownership, we can never obtain them (like the legend of Tantalus). Hence dukkha. The more the ignorant striving after non-existent things, the more the dukkha.

You are on the right track with dependent origination.  But it is not so much that each link is a fetter.  Rather each link is necessary part of the fetter-generating process.  So yes, calm down the process of DO, then deconstruct it link-by-link, until you fully understand the whole thing and bring it under your control, instead of you being under its control.  Then you can leave the raft behind and enjoy the other shore.  emoticon

Malcolm
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but the fetter that arises contingent on both. 
living with the subsconcious belief that world consists of separate things.

- Yes, so to me this translate as an "false beliefe" (like believe a snake is a snake when looked at it correctly its a snake, giving rise to fear and so on), though I understand that you emphasis the contigency on perciever and object and the "spasms" created due this belief which better defines the whole thing, though essentially to me it boils down to the false belief. Probably knowing this dependency though is necessary for getting it just right though in terms of how to practice correctly? 

But it is not so much that each link is a fetter.  Rather each link is necessary part of the fetter-generating process. 

- It just is what necessarily will happen when ignorance happens really, so DO is as natural as anything.

DO, then deconstruct it link-by-link.

- I think you mentioned this slightly in our longer discussion some months back, but to me (and due to how I have practiced) it sounds like you go about it the same way when "decontructing", meaning reach the appropriate jhana, have ethics and theory in order and then vippassana, or is this dependent on lineage/teacher/sutta how one go about this?

Just to add to the discussion, though my own practice is very much about tantra and energywork, its easily translated as say different levels of ignorance, so start by subject "I", then object "I", then concept of time and space, dream and substrate and then "me-and-others", and the practice is very much from beginning to end analyze these concepts from the point of view of nature of mind untill they are seen through and insight is stabelized/ one reach the default "shift". But also currious on this, and also (as mention) how people goes at it differently, like the gelupa school vs therevada for instant, first having some difference in terms of vehicle. 

Also, last question, the phrase "if this is, that is, and if this ceases that ceases". Is that meant as a metaphore encapsulating the whole link (if that "ignorance" is then this "birth and suffering" is, and vice versa), or does it mean something else? For some reason I have thought it means if that particular sense object is (say a door), this perciever is (as the-person-percieving-the-door), and if that sense object ceases so does that perciever, thus making them utterly dependent on each other, and no duality? Never read this anywhere, but just how my mind started working when first thinking about it, and before (not anymore) my mind would get waaast, like in seconds just get "big" and clear, in lack of better words... wierd and cool experience. 

​​​​​​​Thx
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Oskar, there are lots of pratices, and you don't have to know the theory to practice in many cases, as long as you have a teacher who guides you. Practice can be technical, or it can be sitting down in a forest and just letting go.  Whatever floats your boat. There is nothing special about one particular practice except in the sense they are all special, and some may be more suited to a person or have higher success rates. Whenver you think one pratice is THE ONE, clinging arises.

You are right on with this and that.  Technically, this-that conditionality is an alternative to linear causation, explaining that there are complex causes and conditions for any thing, and when they are present the thing is present, and when they cease the thing ceases.  But yes this-that conditionality is also used to explain dependent origination - or perhaps you could say that depedent origination is an detailed application of this-that conditionality.  But to go on, yes you have absolutely perceived the dharma on this that is hiding in plain sight.  To have an object, you must have a subject.  When the subject ceases, the object ceases (nonduality).  But as you note it works the other way around too - when the object ceases, the subject ceases.  In seeing through the computer I am typing on, I see through myself.  Thich Nhat Hanh brilliantly turned this around to say "When that ceases, this ceases" (instead of "When this ceases, that ceases") but few people seem to have noticed.  Not-self can lead to non-duality, but also non-duality can lead to not-self.
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Sure, but its interesting to compare emoticon 

depedent origination is an detailed application of this-that conditionality.

- right. It has been on my radar once in a while, interesting I see now that the application change after other insights (which is sort of why I am currious how different teachers goes about it). Its brilliant really, also I guess when truly penetrated you reach non-arising, which seemingly goes in the face of conditionality all together(or causlity), something to ponder.. emoticon
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Non-arising of fetters, non-arising of the delusional sense of self, non-arising of the delusional sense of duality.  But the biological needs and the emotional system still operate, even if more tranquilly than before. However, these very human arisings are met with equanimity, or non-stickiness, or self-liberation or whatever you want to call it. But you can still get drunk and crash your convertible into joke shop window while trying to impress a young woman (a real example from one of the most renowned teachers of the modern era).
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Yesyesyes, destroy all emotions!

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