Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Trevor Beach 5/13/21 9:45 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Trevor Beach 6/4/21 8:52 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Sam Gentile 6/4/21 12:32 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 6/5/21 2:20 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 6/5/21 2:24 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 6/5/21 3:04 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 6/5/21 4:00 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Stirling Campbell 6/5/21 6:55 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Trevor Beach 6/5/21 6:46 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 6/6/21 2:42 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Trevor Beach 6/6/21 9:23 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Trevor Beach 6/6/21 9:33 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/19/21 4:06 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 10/19/21 1:43 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/19/21 1:50 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 10/20/21 6:10 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice This very moment 10/20/21 5:21 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Siavash ' 10/20/21 5:25 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/22/21 11:28 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/21/21 11:28 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice George S 10/22/21 8:28 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/22/21 11:59 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/23/21 4:58 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 10/23/21 7:37 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/23/21 8:37 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 10/23/21 11:24 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/24/21 4:48 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 10/24/21 2:50 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/25/21 12:04 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 10/30/21 10:18 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/30/21 11:36 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/25/21 12:26 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 10/30/21 10:22 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/25/21 12:24 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/29/21 7:32 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 10/30/21 10:40 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/30/21 11:33 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/30/21 11:38 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 10/30/21 11:55 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/30/21 8:59 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 10/30/21 4:49 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 10/30/21 11:41 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/31/21 4:55 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 10/31/21 7:25 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/31/21 7:18 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 10/31/21 7:30 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/31/21 8:42 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 10/31/21 9:22 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/31/21 10:04 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 11/4/21 7:33 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/4/21 11:56 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 11/4/21 1:26 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/4/21 3:16 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 11/4/21 5:18 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/5/21 1:00 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/4/21 4:21 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 11/4/21 5:37 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/5/21 12:40 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/31/21 4:36 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 10/31/21 7:09 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 10/31/21 12:55 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice shargrol 10/31/21 4:58 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 10/31/21 9:09 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/31/21 10:17 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/31/21 9:48 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Ni Nurta 10/31/21 2:08 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/31/21 3:57 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Ni Nurta 11/1/21 7:13 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/1/21 12:20 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Siavash ' 10/31/21 10:35 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/31/21 11:11 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 10/31/21 11:28 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 10/31/21 11:50 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 10/31/21 12:05 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Trevor Beach 10/31/21 1:30 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 10/31/21 1:47 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Trevor Beach 10/31/21 2:33 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 10/31/21 3:06 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/31/21 3:34 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 10/31/21 3:39 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 10/31/21 2:54 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 10/31/21 2:49 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 10/31/21 2:53 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Trevor Beach 10/31/21 3:46 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 10/31/21 4:07 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 10/31/21 3:30 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/31/21 3:46 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 10/31/21 4:10 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Siavash ' 10/31/21 3:31 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 10/31/21 4:11 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 10/31/21 4:36 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/1/21 12:03 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/1/21 12:04 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 10/31/21 5:23 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Trevor Beach 11/1/21 7:19 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/1/21 11:23 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/1/21 1:20 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/2/21 3:27 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 11/4/21 7:51 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/4/21 12:57 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 11/4/21 2:57 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/4/21 2:52 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 11/1/21 3:52 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Adi Vader 11/2/21 1:38 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/2/21 3:30 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 11/2/21 4:02 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/2/21 3:31 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Adi Vader 11/10/21 2:48 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Ni Nurta 11/2/21 1:29 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/2/21 3:43 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/2/21 2:53 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 11/4/21 8:14 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Adi Vader 11/10/21 3:08 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/2/21 3:51 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/2/21 3:56 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/3/21 2:59 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/3/21 3:24 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 11/3/21 4:05 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/3/21 4:06 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/3/21 4:14 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 11/3/21 4:06 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/3/21 5:05 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 11/4/21 2:46 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/4/21 11:29 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/6/21 6:09 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/6/21 6:18 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/5/21 12:49 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/5/21 12:53 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/5/21 2:32 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/5/21 5:04 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/5/21 6:30 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/5/21 6:34 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/5/21 7:55 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/5/21 8:07 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/6/21 12:40 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/6/21 2:19 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/6/21 2:39 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/6/21 1:53 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/6/21 10:10 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Papa Che Dusko 11/7/21 2:02 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/7/21 8:41 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 11/7/21 8:16 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/7/21 9:05 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/7/21 9:18 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 11/7/21 9:42 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 11/7/21 9:54 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 11/7/21 10:01 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/7/21 11:43 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 11/7/21 3:49 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/8/21 5:57 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/8/21 6:28 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/7/21 12:24 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/8/21 6:22 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/7/21 12:58 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/7/21 1:17 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/7/21 1:38 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/7/21 4:05 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/7/21 5:38 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/7/21 5:42 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/7/21 5:51 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/7/21 6:14 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/7/21 7:10 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/8/21 7:01 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/8/21 2:23 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/9/21 3:27 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/7/21 9:35 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 11/8/21 2:54 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/8/21 6:32 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/8/21 12:26 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice George S 11/8/21 1:00 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/8/21 1:37 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/8/21 4:23 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/8/21 2:20 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/8/21 1:44 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/8/21 1:51 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/8/21 2:03 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/8/21 2:05 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/8/21 2:40 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/8/21 3:02 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/8/21 3:38 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/8/21 3:16 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/8/21 3:37 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/8/21 4:04 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/8/21 4:30 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/8/21 4:07 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/8/21 4:28 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/9/21 2:13 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/9/21 6:20 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/26/21 4:46 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/26/21 9:33 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 11/27/21 3:18 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/27/21 12:43 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 12/13/21 7:31 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 12/13/21 1:44 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 12/13/21 2:18 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 12/13/21 5:50 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 12/14/21 11:58 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 12/14/21 5:23 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 12/15/21 11:23 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 12/15/21 5:08 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 12/15/21 11:21 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/8/21 4:43 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Papa Che Dusko 11/9/21 10:31 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/9/21 1:29 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/9/21 6:23 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Chris Marti 11/9/21 6:34 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Siavash ' 11/9/21 8:19 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice George S 11/9/21 9:35 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Papa Che Dusko 11/9/21 10:33 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Not two, not one 11/9/21 12:08 PM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice terry 11/10/21 12:28 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Jacob Smith 12/17/21 2:07 AM
RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice Oskar M 12/17/21 9:43 AM
Trevor Beach, modified 1 Year ago at 5/13/21 9:45 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 5/13/21 9:42 AM

Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

Posts: 11 Join Date: 4/15/21 Recent Posts
Hello, I am a student of Pemako Buddhism and I'd like to start a thread for pragmatic dharma practices in the vajrayana tradition.  My goal is to share what practices and insights my sangha and I have found useful for deepening and stabilizing the experience of selfless awareness.  All of us are lay people focused on attaining full and permanent liberation from self-based confusion in this life while living in modern Western society. The practice itself is tantra yoga with a focus on guru yoga and various types dynamic concentration. 

For more information on the Pemako view of tantra:
https://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2020/10/open-secrets-of-tantric-yoga.html?m=1&fbclid=IwAR3Xo4cZO3Fss3_0A_-oUeoKDk86NIrUkKDE6TJjzHSvEP-1QZj-gomQhYg

For more information on Dynamic Concentration:
https://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/search?q=dynamic+concentration

An example of Dynamic Concentration practice: 
https://youtu.be/-gTZdelf72w

Here are a couple examples of how we practice Guru Yoga: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vylRKE2UKLk

https://youtu.be/Xs-D39gi6BA
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Comments and questions for the purpose of constructive discussion are more than welcome, as is sharing of your own experience and practices!
Trevor Beach, modified 1 Year ago at 6/4/21 8:52 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/4/21 8:52 AM

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

Posts: 11 Join Date: 4/15/21 Recent Posts
Here's another few guided meditations on recognizing our own selfless buddha nature.

By Kim Rinpoche, pointers to the nature of mind: https://youtu.be/0c8S_UaGWDs

By Lama Karl, a presentation on Avalokiteshvara: https://youtu.be/-aEw3bZVLvo

By myself, recognizing bodhicitta in daily life: https://youtu.be/4mW3juQkpkA
Sam Gentile, modified 1 Year ago at 6/4/21 12:32 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/4/21 12:32 PM

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

Posts: 1347 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Thank you Trevor! Is your topic restricted then to Pemako Buddhism?
Oskar M, modified 1 Year ago at 6/5/21 2:20 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/5/21 2:20 PM

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

Posts: 252 Join Date: 3/22/21 Recent Posts
Sam
 think this is meant as a thread about pragmatic Varjayana buddhism. Meaning, openness and transparacy about practice, and its fruit from a varjayana point of view. About pragmatism in Dharma check out this article: http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-core-features-of-pragmatic-dharma.html.

Traditionally there is more secrecy in Varjayana, thats why this emphasis on pragmatism, to open up a bit. So anything you feel is hitting the mark on this, please do share for everyones benefit. The only teacher  I know of though that seem to have a similar openness about his varjayana practice is Daniel Brown, so Pemako is in my view biggest on the scene in that regard. But I would personally be happy to hear of others as well and I think this is what Trevor meant emoticon 

- Oskar 
Oskar M, modified 1 Year ago at 6/5/21 2:24 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/5/21 2:24 PM

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

Posts: 252 Join Date: 3/22/21 Recent Posts
Lovely account of how insight into emptiness develop, by Garcehn Rinpoche and comment by Kim Thubten Lingpa:

https://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2021/06/garchen-rinpoche-about-bhumis.html?fbclid=IwAR3lAdsj1LjcZVDhLfUiktEUy75Y7y-Iwc7b4NrWiLpVcZjwknA11LQPc4E
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Not two, not one, modified 1 Year ago at 6/5/21 3:04 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/5/21 3:00 PM

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

Posts: 984 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Nice stuff.  Thanks Trevor and Oskar.  I have read some of Kim's work before and always enjoy it, and I appreciate the extra resources and links from a variety of teachers.  I would be interested to know the typical practice routine expected of western students in the tradition.  For example - a weekly class for an hour, and then 15 minutes a day at home, or what exactly?  And from this, what kind of progress is expected?  

Also, are there supplementary exercises to regulate the body and cultivate zest and happiness (first six stages of Anapanasati), or is this part of the transition from external tantra to internal tantra and bodhicitta?  And if it's not too many questions ...  do you think bodhicitta connects to formless realms ( compassion connecting to the base of boundless space, and rejoicing connecting to the base of boundless consciousness)?

Feel free to answer just one question.  Or to ignore them all.  emoticon
Oskar M, modified 1 Year ago at 6/5/21 4:00 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/5/21 4:00 PM

RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

Posts: 252 Join Date: 3/22/21 Recent Posts
Hi!

 - I would be interested to know the typical practice routine expected of western students in the tradition.  For example - a weekly class for an hour, and then 15 minutes a day at home, or what exactly?  And from this, what kind of progress is expected?  

 You mean in Pemako especially? I think it varies, how you living situation, family and other responsibilites etc.. I can only speak for myself and then maybe other pitch in and tell about their practice which would be great emoticon Also feel free to check out this book, there are accounts on how progress happen in this tradition https://www.pemakobuddhism.com/35532, hopefully this will be updated as it is a bit old, and alot has happened since then. 

For me its usually always a morning and a evening sit. Usually Rainbow body yoga in the morning (a set of tantric exercices which requires empowerment) and some Guru yoga, boddhicitta, vipashyna, dynamic consentraion or deiti practice in the evening. Usually I fit in more sessions that that a day too, and there is of course in-between session work, like breaks, on the subway etc.. which for me is usually mantras or vizualisations, or contemplating boddhicitta, and not forget: spinning my prayer wheel when watching TV!

About progress, there is better accounts in the book than what I can give you. But basically you work first on purifying the whole central channel which has 13 knots, aka bhumi openings. Then purifying the surrounding layers of those knots or chacras, which is bhumi perfections. 
Everyknot opening/shift is irreversible, your mind litterarily changes permanently. There is less selfing, like the notion of self, me-ness and otherness get thinner and sometimes drops of completely. Also there is purifications of emotions. For me these two are inseperable, if the "I" knot pops, so does the emotional baggage connected to the knot, you wont have one and not the other I think, not to mention boddhicitta. 
So put easily, more and more clear mind, less and less heavy emotions. 
When 10 knot are opened and purified, you reach exhaustion of all phenomena, buddhahood. After that starts the practice of purifying 11-13th, which I think is strictly ati yoga/ Dzogchen. 

There is a lot to say about each shift too, but it also varies between people I think. I could write more about it but not today emoticon 

- Also, are there supplementary exercises to regulate the body and cultivate zest and happiness (first six stages of Anapanasati), or is this part of the transition from external tantra to internal tantra and bodhicitta?  

zest and Anapanasati are not something I am familiar with sorry, not sure if I understood this question etiher? 
About external tantra to internal tantra and boddhicitta you could check out this article on how we view external and internal: https://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2020/10/open-secrets-of-tantric-yoga.html?fbclid=IwAR0RVo_UDJgu3Q6mUxi_fegXWmES1KEDbEydNvJ72iMPaEk32k3Za5J6jus
We have some categorizations of levels of tantra in terms of generation and completion stage, but its not that explicit and I am not sure if there are sources of it outside the sangha. My experience is that the transittion from outer "building the deity" to becomming the deity, happens by itself naturally as you progress and purify the mind. But I have not read much about how this is done traditionally, so cant say too much about it for now..

Boddhicitta how I understand it can be practices relatively and absolutely. This is not separate from deity practice, but I guess clarifcations are necessary to help the student, essentially though they are the same. Also "absolute" boddhicitta has for me been pointed out, it requires some stable recognition and since I dont have that I rarely practice it/it rarely happnes, so mostly relative aspect. 

- And if it's not too many questions ...  do you think bodhicitta connects to formless realms ( compassion connecting to the base of boundless space, and rejoicing connecting to the base of boundless consciousness)?

Yes absolutely, heartmind that includes every sentient being means also other realms. My logic tells me that if emptiness is true, its true of any realm, needless to say if you realize emptiness of one realm, you realize emptiness of any realm, make sense? 

Hope this was helpfull, you have good questions so nothing here to ignore, cheers emoticon  

Oskar










 
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Stirling Campbell, modified 1 Year ago at 6/5/21 6:55 PM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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I had 25 years(ish) in Nyingma/Dzogchen (Dudjom Lineage) with some side-trips into Kagyu. A number of empowerments, Lojong, Ngondro, Trekchod, Visualization/Guru Yoga, etc., but ALWAYS Dzogchen 1st as training and emphasis. Training in the recognition of, and resting IN Rigpa as much as possible is paramount.

Typical practice was just a weekly dharma talk with sit, and 20-40 minutes a day. For a 100,000 repetitions (couple years) about 30 minutes of Ngondro. 

IMHO for the "pragmatic" practictioner, the most important practice is simply Dzogchen with the aid of a realized teacher to check in with. Good to try the other major teachings, but the depth depends on your obscurations. Those with complex (m)inds will find complex trainings and be given complex instruction.

There ARE no hidden instructions that matter. Most of what is hidden is in plain sight, but goes unnoticed. It's in even the most "basic" dharma books. It's everywhere! emoticon
Trevor Beach, modified 1 Year ago at 6/5/21 6:46 PM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Hi Sam, 

"...I would be interested to know the typical practice routine expected of western students in the tradition.  For example - a weekly class for an hour, and then 15 minutes a day at home, or what exactly?  And from this, what kind of progress is expected?"

The daily practice is generally Rainbow Body Yoga (RBY), which is a series of tantric exercises that usually takes me around 45 min - 1 hour.  There are sangha meetings available every week, which includes practice and discussion. There are also several weekend (and longer) retreats that take place throughout the year, as well as guided sessions here and there.  Current progress of the sangha indicates that the dedicated student can go from "awakened" (1st kensho / stream entry / 1st bhumi) to fully liberated (10 open and perfected bhumis / exhaustion of reactive karma) in under 10 years. Progress is discussed openly, soberly and analytically among sangha members.

"Also, are there supplementary exercises to regulate the body and cultivate zest and happiness (first six stages of Anapanasati), or is this part of the transition from external tantra to internal tantra and bodhicitta?"

The different exercises of RBY directly address the tensions held by the subconsious mind.  When those tensions are released, the body is allowed to regulate itself properly (without you in the way).  The result of correct practice in Pemako is natural joyfulness and vitality, but the sensations of joy or bliss are not used as a support for concentration as with anapanasati.  Instead, Pemako Buddhism teaches one to recognize that one's own wakeful awareness is already joyful and full of potential.  Emphasis is placed on cultivating relative and absolute bodhicitta during all stages of practice.

"And if it's not too many questions ...  do you think bodhicitta connects to formless realms ( compassion connecting to the base of boundless space, and rejoicing connecting to the base of boundless consciousness)?"

Bodhicitta supports our connection to all realms, as no realms are separate from it :-)  Progress in insight and purification of the subconcious mind results in the development of a naturally clear and quiet mind.  The formless realms are also on the wheel of samsara, and so we practice to purify those aspects of our minds as well.
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Not two, not one, modified 1 Year ago at 6/6/21 2:42 AM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Thank you for the helpful replies.  I can see Rainbow Body Yoga is an important exercise for this practice.  Is there more information available on that, or do you have to learn it with instruction/empowerment from Kim (noting his statement that no one will be turned away for lack of funds).

Please note, I am not asking this is any judgemental way.  Just interested from a comparative dharma point of view.  

Metta

Malcolm 
Trevor Beach, modified 1 Year ago at 6/6/21 9:23 AM
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Malcolm,

I see I replied to the wrong person earlier. Sorry about that! 

Because it utilizes diety mantras, RBY must be learned with empowerment.  You can find more info about it here: https://www.pemakobuddhism.com/26656

The exercises themselves range from visualization, breath manipulation and dynamic mantra chanting to ati yoga.

Many of the exercises learned *can* be performed without empowerment or without deity mantras, but of course they are much more effective if learned and performed properly.
Trevor Beach, modified 1 Year ago at 6/6/21 9:33 AM
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Stirling, 

"I had 25 years(ish) in Nyingma/Dzogchen (Dudjom Lineage) with some side-trips into Kagyu. A number of empowerments, Lojong, Ngondro, Trekchod, Visualization/Guru Yoga, etc., but ALWAYS Dzogchen 1st as training and emphasis. Training in the recognition of, and resting IN Rigpa as much as possible is paramount."

That's awesome.  Training in recognizing rigpa is #1 priority in our practice as well.  The whole purpose of RBY is to consistently establish recognition of our basic nature and then to stabilize that recognition.

"IMHO for the "pragmatic" practictioner, the most important practice is simply Dzogchen with the aid of a realized teacher to check in with. Good to try the other major teachings, but the depth depends on your obscurations. Those with complex (m)inds will find complex trainings and be given complex instruction."

Agreed.  Fortunately, we have a very effective practice on dealing with those obscurations once recognition is established as well as several senior students and teachers to offer guidance and support.

"There ARE no hidden instructions that matter. Most of what is hidden is in plain sight, but goes unnoticed. It's in even the most "basic" dharma books. It's everywhere! emoticon"

For sure!
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/19/21 4:06 AM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Very good discussion on Boddhicitta, what it is and how it develops along the path, and why it is so important especially in relation to the subtle body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbqaZdGH9kE&t=12s
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 10/19/21 1:43 PM
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Isn't that Kim Katami in the YouTube video?
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/19/21 1:50 PM
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Yes? He is the founder of Pemako lineage.
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 10/20/21 6:10 AM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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We get periodic visits from folks who are students or devotees of Kim Katami's, previously from Open Heart Sanga, now from Pemako. These visits usually come in waves and feature more than one person. It appears to me to be organized activity.

Just noticing.
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This very moment, modified 8 Months ago at 10/20/21 5:21 PM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Happy little waves coming in sets to dance on the shore of the DhO.  And then they retreat to the vast ocean of the buddhaverse from whence they came... only to return a few months later with a message such as " Some of us our Buddha's now " or " More of us are moving to even higher levels of Bhumihood"  Let us rejoice!!   ;)
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Siavash ', modified 8 Months ago at 10/20/21 5:25 PM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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I think it would be better if they could limit their advertisements into just one thread, and not take too much bandwidth from the forum.
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/21/21 11:28 PM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Loads of good stuff from the Autumn retreat emoticon 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSWuZqDdFdQ&list=PLqTm9fV9DGhu4AhG90DgKZh9yT1de7WNE
George S, modified 8 Months ago at 10/22/21 8:28 AM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Tree looks lonely without its leaves
Will be back again next year
Hopefully
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/22/21 11:28 AM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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This thread is for all "pragmatic" varjayana, so not meant to be limited to only Pemako. If you know of other varjyana teachers then go ahead and post and let discussion flow. Only teacher I know of is Daniel Brown Phd, who also talks openly about attanments, mentioning having two people in his sangha who have reached Sangye. 

Can check out Vincent Horn article on pragmatic dharma, also Daniel Ingram is an excellent example. Though we are not in varjayana anymore.

​​​​​​​http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-core-features-of-pragmatic-dharma.html
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/22/21 11:59 AM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Article I found on Garchen Rinpoches account of the grounds and bhumis with Kim Rinpoches commentary:

​​​​​​​http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2021/06/garchen-rinpoche-about-bhumis.html
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/23/21 4:58 AM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Discussion on cessation/nirodha from last autumn retreat. Kim and Helena discuss how cessations are in the beginning and then how they change as one reach further and further on the path. I also come across Venerable Thubten Chodron teachings on cessiation, its much more traditional and intellectual but I think it pretty good parts of it. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k_61NIwJuk).

Discussion on cessation/nirodha, Kim Rinpoche 21.10.2021.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fzPdMb8Vs4&t=17s
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 10/23/21 7:37 AM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Oskar, if you post the same comments and links to multiple topics then you're spamming DhO. Please engage in interactive discussions on DhO topics other than the one topic you are allowed to post your Pamako information on - this one:

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/23257227

Thank you,

Chris
DhO Moderator
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/23/21 8:37 AM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Aha, I didn't know. My bad.
​​​​​​​
Oskar
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 10/23/21 11:24 AM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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For those who are interested in Vajrayana-ish and non-dual practices that do not require empowerments, Michael Taft teaches it in a very pragmatic way. It's mixed up with other influences. A lot is from Dzogchen and Mahamudra but some is from Hindu tantra, among other things, and of course from Shinzen Young who is Michael's main teacher. Michael has an introductory course that I think isn't that expensive, and a more expensive course (Reversing the Stack) with fewer participants. I wouldn't be able to afford it, but luckily there are sometimes scholarships available. He also leads (free) guided meditations on youtube every week. In collaboration with San Fransisco Dharma Collective, there's a death sangha on zoom every month for which you can buy tickets online. The Halloween death sangha is coming up. 

My practice fits the heading of this thread pretty well, I'd say. I don't follow any specific system, though, like several of you seem to do. I'm in Michael Taft's Reversing the Stack course part 3 and I attend teachings with Lama Lena pretty regularly, and with Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche sometimes, but I'm strongly influenced by Daniel Ingram and Shinzen Young, and by this forum, and I pragmatically use any dharma that resonates with my path at the moment. I find that the awakening process knows its own way and that it communicates. My main teacher is therefore the process itself. 
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/24/21 4:48 AM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Hi Linda. One cannot practice Varjayana without empowerments, how I understand it that is the only thing that seperates varjayana from other mahayana traditions. I think I have recieved about 20 transmissions from Kim for various practices and deities. That being said not all practices in varjayana or Pemako does need empowerment, like 2pf, guru yoga, dynamic consentration. This is a pretty cool example on that: http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2019/05/the-first-person-who-opened-all-bhumis.html
Also the bhumi model, the path map used can be investigated by anyone interested and willing to put in the time. 

I like Lama Lena and have attended one of her online retreats, I think she has alot of good stuff on youtube too. I havent read everything of Ingrams book (its so big), but parts of it and which I liked (though not agreeng with everything) but I think the work he has done in the world of pragmatic dharma is really outstanding. At this point though, I am not that impressed by most modern teachers. I think many are somewhere on the path, but its very few have completely finnished it and thats whats most interesting to me these days. Also it can end up being distorted what they teach when they have had a couple of breakthrough and then they start teaching Dzogchen and mahamudra. 

I would really recommend Daniel Brown though, as a pragmatic varjayana teacher, he has alot of good stuff and I think profound boddhicitta. 
​​​​​​​ 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 10/24/21 2:50 PM
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That's why I said Vajrayana-ish. Works just fine. Very pragmatic. Personally I wouldn't call it pragmatic if it requires empowerment, but it's okay to have different opinions about that. I'm totally fine with others calling it pragmatic. 

I'm reading Daniel Brown and using some of his free resources. I know people who go to Daniel Brown reatreats, but I can't afford it. Michael Taft goes to his retreats. 

Michael Taft has at least 40-50 years of experience, and I trust his judgement. Daniel has saved my ass when I really needed it, so I trust him too. There really aren't that many people around whom you can reach out to when shit hits the fan in a magickal way - people who would take you seriously, let alone know how to help you. 
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/25/21 12:04 AM
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Ah, ok. Yes I kind of agree with you there. But it still varies how much openes there is from varjayana lineages. Some seem to keep everything to themselves, while others share quite a bit like Pemako or Brown, thats why I think its pragmatic because they keep as much as they can open. Also writing on various topic that many teachers today dont dare ro touch (like the shitfaced monkey gurus out there being lineage holderd and everything) and most inportantly being crystal clear that the goal is full exhaustion or enlightenment is actially way more rare than one might think. 

I talked to a guy that join Pemako for a while that had reached 2 or 3 path, and Ingram had been of great help to him. Like called him when he worked on his SE,  so thats just lovely that a teacher does. And yes, someone to has the know how is gold to have around!
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/25/21 12:24 AM
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Also talking out load about ones attainment is very rare in modern varjayana, though traditionally its done all the time. 
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/25/21 12:26 AM
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I think Brown has this scolarship you can apply for if you cant afford it. I saw those prices and its quite high yes. 
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/29/21 7:32 AM
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Something Kim often talk about is how over time teachings of dharma gets weaker. Like there will be this wave in history when big figures like Hakuin or Padmasabhava came, and then over the years there will be less of a result from practice they introduced, and more and more dogma. I think this is how reaction like pragmatic dharma happens, because people dont longer find the teachings they are looking for because teachers themselves are not realized enough to sufficently help their students.  In varjayana this problem is taken head on with Tertons and termas, which are meant to be super fitting for this time or place, when other dharma in the population doesnt "work" as it used to. I think know the Aro Gter lineage, and Rantashree Rinpoche as well as Kim Katami, all teach their own mind termas, would be interesting to see if there are others as well. 
So I think its important to note that when it comes to dharma its all about realization of mind nature, and how to do that, and not get tangled up in too much other things, like culture, traditions, custums and o forth. 

http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2021/10/how-liberation-works.html
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/30/21 8:59 AM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Article on meaning of enlightenment and shortcommings that can come about in secular buddhism.

http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2021/10/full-enlightenment-vs-delusions-of.html
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 10/30/21 10:18 AM
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Yeah, I can relate to how you reason in calling it pragmatic. I wouldn't go so far as to give others crap for not sharing, though. That's the premises under which they have been empowered to teach, and it's also about risk management, according to what they have been taught.

When I took refuge I promised to go for full Buddhahood, so I'll do that or die trying (and continue after death if possible). I can't see myself ever proclaiming that I'm done, though, because I believe that as long as I'm alive, there's probably still stuff to work on. And I enjoy the practice anyway, so I have no problem with that. 

Yeah, that's awesome. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 10/30/21 10:22 AM
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Yes, he has, but it's still over my budget. But that's okay. I have what I need at the moment. Thanks anyway for sharing. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 10/30/21 10:40 AM
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Lama Lena says something similar but also almost the opposite, depending on how you interpret it. Rather than talking about more and more dogma, she talks about how the transmission gets watered down because it's farther and farther from the original. She also says that there's at least ideally a sweetspot when the dharma is spread so much that it's easier to access it before it is watered down. Whether or not pragmatic teachings belong to the sweetspot or the watering down is not so easy to tell, I guess. She does warn about "dharma rumors" that are spread by people outside the original traditions. On the other hand, she doesn't look down on more experimental approaches. She just chooses to teach the traditional teachings because we are at risk of loosing the knowledge. Personally, I'm experimental at heart, so I don't think I would be able to pass on traditions the way she does. 

She also says that when the dharma has been forgotten, a new Buddha will eventually show up and turn the wheel. 

Personally, I think the dharma will always be available in some form for those who are sufficiently tuned in. 
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/30/21 11:33 AM
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Yeah, one can feel this when attending different teaching how strong the blessings are. I think this depends on 1) the teacher in questions realization, meaning how complete of a transmission he/she can give and 2) how "fresh" it is. I guess if the lineage is unbroken, it should not be a problem though, but it does feel quite different when it has been handed down for generations compared to terma teachings from this decade.  

Similar to being "watered down" is the notion of how it used to be taught when it was fresh and how it is taught say 500 years later. A friend in mine in the sangha said that traditionally the teacher would give teaching from the top and then go dowm finding out this way where the student was, like starting with pointing out instructions, if the student didnt get it, guru yoga, if not that worked, prostration or fournoble truths or something along those lines, maybe others know more about this than I do. I am not sure if it always was like that but its something to think about, but anyway, now its completely the other way around which is curious.
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/30/21 11:36 AM
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"give others crap for not sharing".. Sorry I should have been clearer here. with shitfaced monkey gurus I mean guys like Trungpa or Sogyal Rinpoche, which to me sounds like the perfect way of one person ruining a whole tradition and scaring loads of people in the process. People and lineages having their code of secrecy and stuff is no problem and completely up to them, so sorry about that. 
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/30/21 11:38 AM
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Or not always the other way around, I guess this also depends on the teacher, as you mentioned Lama Lena she is clearly an exception and there are others too.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 10/30/21 11:55 AM
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I would love it if teachings were more often given with the most advanced pointers first. 
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Not two, not one, modified 8 Months ago at 10/30/21 4:49 PM
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Jeepers Oskar, I read that link. Sometimes it seems as if being a member of Pemako involves a lot of clinging, and not so much sympathetic joy.  Where does this desire to proselytize and run down other teachers come from?  

I said before vive la difference - but the stuff that you linked to (reproduced below) is not different.  It is just bog standard cult-like behaviour.

A word of advice - the noble eightfold path is a fabrication.  If you get absorbed in a fabrication of any kind as a final 'truth', there is the risk of spiritual bypassing and the effects that typically result.  The material below reads just like somebody who is clinging to some of the formless realms. 

​​​​​​​Wake up! 

With love, believe it or not.   - Malcolm
 

"I didn't have the patience to listen all of it but it did catch my ear Shinzen Young saying that he doesn't think doneness, i.e. buddhahood is possible. Sigh... another secular buddhist who lots of people look up to who is so unripe in his realisations that he directly contradicts himself with mahayana and vajrayana masters, while claiming to be a proponent of both. Stephen Batchelor, Culadasa Yates, Young... all singing the same tune. Two-three years before his passing Culadasa even admitted that sutrayana "doesn't go far enough", after 50 years of practicing it.

"It is (much) better than nothing that there are teachers out there who have had one or few awakenings but compared to any nonphysical (or physical) mahasiddha, all these people are incredibly unripe. Then they in their "wisdom" of "many decades" of meditation with all the "top" teachers who themselves were unripe draw these genious conclusions... I remember Batchelor state, after his 8 years of being a gelugpa scholar monk, that guru yoga is bogus! See Why I Didn't Quit Guru Yoga.

"It gets mindbogglingly stoopid when folks who didn't learn to practice well throw away the baby with the bath water, just like that. And that's another reason why tantric guru yoga is so precious because these silly conclusions end right there in the presence of someone who *is* done, a mahasiddha.

"People of the world should really learn about the correct practice of tantric guru yoga and call masters - mahasiddhas - to them. Buddha, Jesus, Guru Rinpoche, Milarepa etc, any will do. It is easiest and simplest practice with no need for empowerment or any type of preparation other than being open to receive. It is easier than shamatha, quicker to learn than jhanas, no need to learn long prayers or mantras in foreign languages, and most importantly presence of a guru reveals our basic state or buddhanature, everytime without exception which is what jhanas or shamatha meditation can never accomplish. This is the gift of tantra that anyone anywhere anytime can make use of and receive. And importantly, this is also a way to get beyond unripe stages, where people who don't hang around with mahasiddhas get stuck. This is a way to raise the bar of dharma in the world.

"People need to know that it is indeed possible to get "done", fully purified, entirely sinless, fully enlightened, to become a living buddha, just like generations of mahayana and vajrayana masters have said!"
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 10/30/21 11:41 PM
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I was hoping he would have worked through at least some of that by now. 

​​​​​​​This is exactly why I'll never say I'm done. 
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Not two, not one, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 12:55 AM
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Yeah, life is an ever unfolding complex and interdependent process.  Or indeed, like a box of chocolates!  You never know what you are oing to get ...

But, lots to admire there as well.  I love his little book Awake, and the sequel has some very interesting stuff in it too, and he seems to be helping many people all of which is great.  

May all beings be free from binding.

Malcolm 
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 4:36 AM
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 Where does this desire to proselytize and run down other teachers come from?

- Its not a matter of running down other teachers, its a respond to teachers proponing half-way dharma, teachniques that doesnt go all the way and then saying it doesnt exist, this is super contradictory to dharma teachings isnt it? Its not uncommon how I see it that teachers point out shortcomming like this in the world of dharma, like Hakuin is one of the first that comes to mind. So I dont see a problem really, but the floor is open to discuss this.  

It is just bog standard cult-like behaviour. 

- Gosh, well Culadasa Yates is the one that was busted for takin in prostitutes, not Kim... same goes for a couple of others he has been harsh too, like Sogyal Rinpoche or Trungpa. I think one should be careful tossing out the cult name-calling in this context.    

-  The material below reads just like somebody who is clinging to some of the formless realms. 

Curious, how does you read a text and see that its a matter of clinging to a formless realm?
shargrol, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 4:58 AM
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Yeah, warning flags for sure. 

First comes the ideal, the perfection model: "People need to know that it is indeed possible to get "done", fully purified, entirely sinless..." 

Next comes the inevitable imperfections and sins.

Then there is the choice: honesty? or denial?

Here's the checklist in case anybody needs it:

SAINTS
SAY MEAN DO consistency
Adhere to own moral standards
Pay debts
Keep promises
Truth is highest standard
Insists close associates tell the truth
Un-aggressive philosophy
Attractive but not drawing
Waits for you to seek help
Good reputation endures & improves
Projects & organization grow & improve
In the long run things turn out well
People have long term benefit from association
Have concern for effect of actions on self and others
Will immediately apologize for errors
Look for their own mistakes & will apologize
If trapped will not renounce principles
Typically have good health
Typically have few accidents & injuries
Felt loved when a child
Can sit very still
Encourage associates to be self reliant
Refrains from using mind-dulling substances
Are comfortable being in the background
May adopt a spiritual name one time
PSYCHOPATHS
SAY MEAN DO disparity
Breaks own rules
Many bad debts, writes bad checks
Break promises
No true regard for truth
Tell close associates to lie
Push philosophy aggressively
Attractive and drawing
Comes on with unsolicited advice
Cood reputation fades in time
Projects & organization degenerate
In the long run things turn out badly
People are damaged by long term association
Are unconcerned for effect of actions on self and others
Apologize as last resort
Ignore their own mistakes and apologizes only if cornered
If trapped will do or say anything to escape
Typically have variable exotic health problems
Typically have many accidents and injuries
Felt unloved when a child
Can sit still only when center of attention
Enslave people around them
Substance abuse common
Compulsion to become the center of attention
Adopt many aliases

Anyone psychopath or saint is unlikely to have all of the characteristics listed. Just because someone has some of these characteristics does not mean he or she is a psychopath or saint.


(Thanks to Dreamwalker for typing it in!)






Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 4:55 AM
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Linda, people used to say they are done emoticon&nbsp; Among people of this time, I think Garchen Rinpoche says so explicitly that he has finnished his purification, will see if I can find the video for you.<br /><br />http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2021/04/claims-of-enlightenment-made-by-ancient.html
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 7:25 AM
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Sure, but it just seems safer not to jump to any conclusions, as those who do tend to get awfully unskillful. If I ever get there, I hope it will be reflected in my behavior. 

Edited to clarify: I don't have any issues with Garchen Rinpoche saying that he has completed his purification. My point is rather that I deeply respect that he doesn't need to boast about it or badmouth other teachers in order to market himself. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 7:09 AM
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Onesidedly pointing out other people's failings - and/or what sounds like failings when decontectualized - to aggressively promote One True Path while endulging in wrong speech and conceit... well, that's not the awakening I'm going for. 
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 7:18 AM
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Of course, you should not say stuff like this if you are not sure, I think then its quite obvious you are not there! This is a quote by Padmasambhava on what it means to be certain: 

“Gain certainty in the fact that since the very beginning your own mind is the awakened state of buddhahood. Gain certainty in the fact that all phenomena are the magical display of your mind. Gain certainty in the fact that the fruition is present in yourself and is not to be sought elsewhere. Gain certainty in the fact that your master is the buddha in person. Gain certainty in the fact that the nature of view and meditation is the realization of the buddhas. To gain such confidence you must practice!”

And here is the video with Garchen Rinpoche, I havent seen the whole video but a friend from the sangha posted this part some months ago, maby will see it later, I think his precense is some of the most astonishing I have seen, and if I get the chance to see him I will: 

"Now I am completely purified, ready to die..." at 49 minuts. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcfEJwQflJI
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 7:30 AM
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Have you ever seen Garchen Rinpoche spew his contempt over other teachers? I haven't. Garchen Rinpoche isn't questioned here. 
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 8:42 AM
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Sorry Linda, I mentioned  Garchen Lama because he is an example of someone who talks about his attainments as you mentioned this, but many subject and things get entangeled.
He doesnt talk bad about people no, but I remember him saying that when he came out of prison no lamas dared giving refuge vows to people in Tibet because of fear of the Chinese, which is a way of saying something about current situation, and a way of "putting down" some people (in this case other lamas) if you chose to read it like that.

I dont read Kim article the way you and Malcom does. Its not a matter of getting others down to pull yourself up. Longchenpa have a poem that is called something like  "why I am depressed" where he talks about the present situation of Dharma in his time, and as I mentioned many others have done this too. Do you think that was badmouthing or constructive from his point of view?
​​​​​​​
If its too the point, like: you lack realization and your view is incorrect, and what you say; that enlightnment is not possible(!) then to me it is very constructive to point out that that is a problem.  If I had been the student of Shinzen Young there would be a  chance that I didnt believe it was possible to end my suffering, thats pretty serious mistake from a dharma teacher if you ask me. And him being a big figure in the world of dharma I can imagine that others adopt the same view. So no, I dont think this is problematic at all to point this out. 
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 9:09 AM
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Oskar --


If its too the point, like: you lack realization and your view is incorrect, and what you say; that enlightnment is not possible(!) then to me it is very constructive to point out that that is a problem.  If I had been the student of Shinzen Young there would be a  chance that I didnt believe it was possible to end my suffering, thats pretty serious mistake from a dharma teacher if you ask me. And him being a big figure in the world of dharma I can imagine that others adopt the same view. So no, I dont think this is problematic at all to point this out. 

Oskar, how do you know someone is fully enlightened according to Pemako? Does that person retain all the traits human beings have, or do they transcend being human?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 9:22 AM
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It's obvious that you aren't a student of Shinzen Young, because if you were, you would know that he is very optimistic about ending suffering. 

Please don't uncritically buy second-hand information taken out of context. 

Also, do you really think that Garchen Rinpoche commenting on the sociopolitical circumstances is the same thing as Kim's polemics? I could think of a few differences... Just be careful, okay?
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 9:48 AM
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Chris

Final stage in Pemako is exhaustion of all phenomena, so fully realizing emptiness, and exhaution of all negative mind states, also the definition for Mahayana enlightenment as I understands it.

How do you know? To me parts of that sounds simple really and you can see them talk about this in the video on cessation I posted, like there should be absolutely no anger, jealusy, depression or any other negatiev mind states whatsoever 24/7. Thats one way, if something comes up then you are not done. And of course, it should not be an artifical mind state like samadhi in which stuff is still there dormant.
The other is inquiry into the view of that person, which I guess depend on the teacher having same or higher realization in this case Kim, I am not sure if Kim does this or not but thought I should mention it since this is the way its traditionally done?
Third is energy reading, which I am a bit hesitate to mention because I know many find bhumi reading done in Pemako to be nonsense, but this is a way,  a skill that is learned and takes time to master. 
By the latter method Kim has put forth a handfull of people of this time that have reached that stage outside the sangha, like Garchen Lama and Rana Rinpoche and Amma. Among recently deceased master there is also Chatral Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. 

Does that person retain all the traits human beings have, or do they transcend being human?

- Hmm, depends on definition I guess, if there is no negative mind states 24/7, are you a human then? To me these people seem very ordinary, though I have not had the chance to meet them in the flesh yet. But happy, content and sincerly compassionate. Also the vibe of this person changes completely, like they are not solid anymore. Since this year the feel inside the sangha is very very different from how it was a year ago when no people had come to this point. Like huuuge difference emoticon 
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 10:04 AM
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Right, no I am not emoticon I think he said this in a guru viking podcast and that is where the respond came from. If he usually have a different view, then good.

Kim is more loud when it comes to his opinions, no doubt about that, but again I see this very differently than you as mentioned.

Thank you for your concern, I am not worried at all, I have known Kim for a long time and have no problem with his "eagerness". Again this is not really that special, and I would not even call it polemics, in that case many other teacher should be given the same verdict, as those I have menioned to you. 
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 10:17 AM
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how do you know someone is fully enlightened according to Pemako?

- should also mention there are stages before enlightenment, but I guess this you already know, and that then the teachings from such a person could be less "firm", like partial. Like if you read Dilgo khyentse Rinpoche his explanation is clean to the spot, compared to say someone who has not finnished his purification.. if I read someone saying: "I had this enlightenment but then after that realization, these feelings started surfacing again, its very different now, but still I am enlightened" Then I would say this is an attainment, insight, but not enlightenment by a long shot. Though still good of course. 
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Siavash ', modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 10:35 AM
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Oskar Aas
there should be absolutely no anger, jealusy, depression or any other negatiev mind states whatsoever 24/7.

And absolutely there is no anger and jealousy in pemako people! Specially in KK's writings emoticon
Funny! emoticon
I guess that's why you people keep spamming the forum!
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 11:11 AM
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I have all of those things Siavash, for sure, so not done yet this one. I started a log in this forum and will try to be consistent, you can check that out if you like. 
As I have said many times now, old masters (and probably new ones too) uses harsh words and dynamism in their speak to make a point. You decide for yourself if thats the case with Kim or not. And its not spam is it, seriously? People have had very good experiences, and want to share it to others.. thats not spamming like I get in my e-mail inbox. Also this thread in particular is for all varjayana stuff, so feel free to post any pragmatic varjayana things that you think is good.
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 11:28 AM
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Beware perfection. It does not exist in this universe.

​​​​​​​emoticon
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 11:50 AM
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One more question, Oskar:

Do you see what's happening here? You're spending a lot of your time promoting and defending Pemako. You're subjecting yourself to a "death by a thousand cuts" because the folks you're arguing with are long-term, experienced meditation practitioners. They have more experience than you. They're smart, savvy and they've seen this phenomenon here before, from Kim Katami and others. 

You might want to rethink what you're doing.
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 12:05 PM
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Oskar --

Also this thread in particular is for all varjayana stuff, so feel free to post any pragmatic varjayana things that you think is good.

​​​​​​​No, this topic was started by a Pemako practitioner and it was meant to push Pemako Buddhism. Did you read the first post? Here it is:  

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/22769652

Note that it very clearly states the poster's intended purpose:

"My goal is to share what practices and insights my sangha and I have found useful for deepening and stabilizing the experience of selfless awareness."


​​​​​​​
Trevor Beach, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 1:30 PM
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I guess the last line of my orignal post was conveniently overlooked?

I agree that it is a waste of time to argue online with "long-term, experienced meditation practitioners" that will see what they wish to see when it validates a narrative. 

The OP was meant to showcase some of our practices in Pemako and to invite others to do the same with their own pragmatic vajrayana. It's an invitation for anyone and everyone to to show what is working for them. It is also an invitation to look at things freshly, without searching for confirmation.
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 1:47 PM
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Trevor, the last thing this most recent foray to DhO from Kim and Company is new, or fresh, or anything like that. It's old and worn. It's "here we go again."

Meant to showcase Pemako indeed.
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Not two, not one, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 2:54 PM
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Oskar - prizing the "exhuastion of all negative mind states" is a straighforward denial of emptiness. It involves passion resistance and clinging to a human created ideal of 'non-negativity'.

Also, from a technical (sutta) point of view, all these 'positive' mind states, such as pamojja (gladness) passadhi (tranquility), sukkha (happiness) and viraga (dispassion) are stages in transcendental dependent origination, that precede vimutti (liberation) and asava-khaye-nana (review).  Similarly, on clinging to the formless realms, you discussed some of this with Trevor earlier, but to draw further on the suttas, karuna (compassion) connects to the base of infinite space, mudita (rejoicing) to the base of infinite consciousness, and upekkha (equanimity) to the base of nothinginess.  Uncle Sid made it quite clear that while other religions also pursue compassion, rejoicing and equanimity, the difference in his teaching was using them to gain access to these formless absorptions. He also went on repeatedly about the danger of clinging to formless absoprtions in the longer term. So binding to states such as compassion, rejoicing and equanimity involves absorption, and while the sensations of the body may still be present this nonethless connects to some key jhana factors of the formless realms. This is of course present in many religions, pretty much exactly as Uncles SId described, as it is quite easy to bind to compassion (for example) as an absorption to change your relationship to 'reality'. Such absorptions sounds great and in many ways are  great until you see the aggression and abuse that pops out from those religions, presumably as a result of spiritual bypassing. Uncle Sid issued his warnings about binding to formless realms for good reason - he knew what he was about.

Nonetheless, I think we have a difference in approach that is quite interesting. I see the purpose of purification as being to enable insight.  I think Pemako proposes that the purpose of insight is to enable purification. However, in my view, emotions are fundamentally biological in origin, and so cannot be purified, only unbound from through insight, or suppressed through spiritual bypassing.  You are as likely to abolish 'negative' emotions are you are to abolish hunger or thirst. They are the first arrow, not the second.  Of course if you plan it right, you can ensure you don't get hungry often - perhaps at the risk of over-eating and getting a bit fat (although there is nothing inherently wrong with being fat!)

So in my view absorption in compassion, or rejoicing or equanimity is a stage rather than the end of the path of insight.  But if that is what you prefer to do - great!  Enjoy it!  Vive la difference!  But be aware that if you over-indulge in these absorptions, and then try to claim that you don't get hungry, or thirsty, or emotional, or need to breathe or drink, then that psychic energy is going to pop up in other ways such as coming here to pick arguments about your inherent dharmic superiority. 

So beware of overindulgence in the jhana factors of the formless realms - it can lead to spiritual bloating.

[Edit - I wrote spiritual obesity, but that has slight overtones of fat hatred. Ni Nurta's observation of bloat is a much more accurate metaphor. Thanks Ni!]
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Ni Nurta, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 2:08 PM
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Oskar Aas
Third is energy reading, which I am a bit hesitate to mention because I know many find bhumi reading done in Pemako to be nonsense, but this is a way,  a skill that is learned and takes time to master.

Personally I have no issue with energy reading but your bhumis are nonsense.
Not because they when visualized do not do anything but because of significance you put to simple visualizations. And then use fact them being easy as proof that your tradition works because people can easily do it.

Sure, simple things that help should be taught if they help. This can however be said about cessations and jhanas among other stuff, some which people do not even know can be done because no one tried. The moment knowledge like this is made in to being core teaching of 'tradition' it becomes bloated and stops really evolving. Stop being useful for insight and starts being reason a lot of nonsense is invented and called insight. Then it is described as very hard so that people have something to work for for longer periods of time and for there to be some basis for giving positions in the organisation. Of course insight being basically locked all attention falls on behavior and being perfect emotion-less being. So people go around and pretend nothing bothers them and surprise surprise if you do not immediately give in to emotions they do not have hold on you. No enlightenment of any sort needed to do it.

BTW. Didn't you guys consider that your image might improve if you actually post less URL's and talk about your circle of self-adoration and start real discussions and when applicable giving people actual advices? Not "go to our website, it has it all" but case-specific advices, things which might help someone in their specific situation. Discussions about stuff, like if something you think is not how it is being portrayed then in your own words say what you really think. So far all you guys do is what Kim did and it was absolutely terrible. Are you even different people or Kim forgot to take his anti-psychotic meds?
Trevor Beach, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 2:33 PM
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Chris Marti
Trevor, the last thing this most recent foray to DhO from Kim and Company is new, or fresh, or anything like that. It's old and worn. It's "here we go again."

Meant to showcase Pemako indeed.

"Here we go again" is the expectation that must be validated, yes? The invitation is to view it freshly, not to try and see if it is new.
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 2:49 PM
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 ... prizing the "exhuastion of all negative mind states" is a straighforward denial of emptiness. It involves passion resistance and clinging to a human created ideal of 'non-negativity'.

Yes. This is a huge issue and the reason I'm curious about how Pemako deals with what is and is not human nature - what "must" be disposed of in order to gain the chimera of perfection, and what then remains.
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 2:53 PM
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"Here we go again" is the expectation that must be validated, yes? The invitation is to view it freshly, not to try and see if it is new.

Repeated behavior tends to generate expectations. I'll try to rise above.
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 3:06 PM
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Trevor, a good way to avoid expectations of repeated behavior is to change the behavior. You and your friends lecture. You don't converse. Your responses tend to be pointers and links back to the Pemako website and Kim's material.

Just a thought.
Trevor Beach, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 3:46 PM
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Thanks for this, Malcolm.

I'd like to address Oskar's statement: "Final stage in Pemako is exhaustion of all phenomena, so fully realizing emptiness, and exhaution of all negative mind states, also the definition for Mahayana enlightenment as I understands it."

Fully realizing emptiness is about exhaustion of karmic identification with phenomena. I appreciate the word "unbound" for this. Negative mind states are fair game for experience, but 100% lucidly experienced. The difference is that there is no confusion about "who" is experiencing them or why.

I can tell you that our practice is not based on formless absorption in any way.&nbsp; In fact, shattering the opportunity for absorption via shouting mantras or other dynamic physical practices is stressed often to avoid this very trap. Compassion, gratitude, equanimity are expressed as they arise naturally.

"Nonetheless, I think we have a difference in approach that is quite interesting. I see the purpose of purification as being to enable insight. I think Pemako proposes that the purpose of insight is to enable purification. However, in my view, emotions are fundamentally biological in origin, and so cannot be purified, only unbound from through insight, or suppressed through spiritual bypassing."

I also think that this is quite interesting! As you put it, Pemako puts insight first to establish the correct context (emptiness, of course) for experiencing phenomena, including emotions. The empty context allows the unbinding. In my opinion, that is simply the more reliable way to go about it. Not everyone in the sangha develops the same way, though. Some folks progress the way that you describe, where purification leads to insight by default.

For other folks, Pemako students do not come here to pick arguements, but arguements do find us pretty quickly. It is frustrating to catch shit for sharing what feels to be genuine, but it is what it is.
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 3:30 PM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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... so fully realizing emptiness, and exhaution of all negative mind states, also the definition for Mahayana enlightenment as I understands it.

More curiosity arises from reading this comment. What is "exhaustion of all negative mind states?" Does it mean that they are permanently disposed of, never to return? My experience has been that it's not literally banishing negative feelings and emotions that matters, but fully experiencing them, investigating their nature, and realizing they are as empty as all other phenomena.

Yes?

​​​​​​​No?

​​​​​​​
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Siavash ', modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 3:31 PM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Trevor Beach
Pemako students do not come here to pick arguements, but arguements do find us pretty quickly. It is frustrating to catch shit for sharing what feels to be genuine, but it is what it is.

Purification!
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 3:34 PM
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Chris

- You're subjecting yourself to a "death by a thousand cuts" because the folks you're arguing with are long-term, experienced meditation practitioners.

I have very good experience with Kim and Pemako, so I dont have a problem promiting it. Experienced meditators, that depends on what you mean by that, to me it depends on insight and thats it really. 

- Did you read the first post?

No I read the headline, or the post a long time ago, I thought the same as Trevor said above.

- You dont converse.

Chris, I have tried answering to the best of my abilities here. My answer are actually pretty long. 
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 3:39 PM
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Chris, I have tried answering to the best of my abilities here. My answer are actually pretty long. 

Oskar, post length isn't the issue. Anyone can post lengthy replies that contain lots of links and dogma. What needs to happen is conversation. Going back and forth with the others here without resorting to posting a lot of links back to the Pemako website or Kim Katami's videos on YouTube. I've seen you do conversation - just stick to it.
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 3:46 PM
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Does it mean that they are permanently disposed of, never to return? 

Yes. I have had complete emotional release many times, so I dont have a issue with this point. Its common topic in our sangha, and that it goes hand in hand with emptiness realization. Like if you have cessation, complete drop of self then this means emotions drops too. Its actually one of the definition given of cessation here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k_61NIwJuk&t=3s 

b​​​​​​ut fully experiencing them. 
hmm, well, if you fully experience them and see their empty nature, there is no one holding them right and so disposing naturally happens, thats how its been for me. 
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 3:57 PM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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significance you put to simple visualizations. 

- Sorry Ni Nurta but I think you missunderstand, this is not how it works energy reading, it has nothing to do with vizualisation.

perfect emotion-less being. 

- Again, this is not what purification is about.. the description Daniel Brown uses for this stage is, elimination of all negative state and flourishing of 70-75 positive states I think, so joy, compassion, care etc... 

discussions and when applicable giving people actual advices? 

- as I said to Chris, I try to give answers here, and I am all up for discussion, but when you say: "kim forgot to take his anti-psychotic meds"!. 

This is not ok. Its disrespective and completely misses the mark about what is the premise for having a discussion. 
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Not two, not one, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 4:07 PM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Thanks Trevor I enjoyed those comments and have nothing to argue with there.  I like the shouting tech to disrupt absoprtion!

Not sure that your last sentence was addressed to me, but I guess folks (myself included) are perceiving other views to be stated or implied by the apparent clinging to certain specialised vajrayana dharmas and the apparent desire to assert superiority.  Honestly, running down teachers who have benefitted many is likely to provoke a reaction, and also does also seem like a direct disconfirmation of the claims being made.  Of course, any sangha will be diverse (hopefully).  So if you want to elicit a different reaction, maybe use different stimuli?  :-) 
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Not two, not one, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 4:10 PM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Oskar, this might be a language issue, but I guess many people here will see a contradcition between saying yes you have permanently disposed of emotions never to return, and what's more you have done so many times.  Doesn't the first preclude the second?  If you have done this once, then surely the need to do it again will never arise.

No doubt I am imperfectly understanding what you are trying to say, but perhaps you can see why we might be puzzled to try to reconcile your views with the dharma as we know it?

With goodwill

Malcolm
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 4:11 PM
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... if you fully experience them and see their empty nature, there is no one holding them right and so disposing naturally happens, thats how its been for me. 

Oskar, can you please be more precise - are you suggesting the total elimination of the rising of negative thoughts and emotions, or are you suggesting they arise still but are seen as empty and thus not clung to? This is a very important distinction.
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 4:36 PM
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Thats a good question, yes I see your point Malcolm.

In my experience, when I did 2pf, self was seen through for a moment, or several moments, like a small cessation. This enabled emotions related to that "part" of the self to dissolve. If you see the video I posted, not by kim but by Venerable Thubten Chodron, she says exactly this about small cessations.

But selfing happens again after an awakening, right? If you read about Eckhart Tolles awakening or Dalai Lamas awakening, they both say that same thing. That the "honeymoon" didnt last.
Like one doesnt stay in that wakefull precense from that point on, so you keep practicing. Some then goes on to different practices than the first one that enabled that initial insight. Like in Pemako, as that is my point of reference, you never touch 2pf again after this, no point, it doesnt "work" anymore. In Zen I guess you head on to another Koan. 
You could say that the self is patched back together again, but in my experience this is not right either, its very different after one such shift, thoughts and "selfing" becomes much lighter and transparent, but fixation still happens so emotions stick. So you keep having these small cessations, and self is demolished piece by piece, this is my experience. 
So this is in relation to selfing how I see it, same but different thing is tantra where you transform emotions, but I need to go to bed now so can answer that tomorrow if interest emoticon

Essentially though you could say as I think Malcolm meant, that its only one awakening, and all the other hallmarks are just there on the way. But in my experience, some of the things that say you are moving in the right direction is the release of negative emotions or trauma if you like. And to have this milestones is really helpfull too. 

Hope this answered your question. 
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 10/31/21 5:23 PM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Oksar, have a good night.

When you come back to DhO let's keep this as simple as we can. I'm asking if negative thoughts and emotions can be totally eliminated at some point, according to Pemako. Answering with a simple "yes" or "no" would be great. "Yes" for the total elimination of all negative thoughts and emotions, "no" for negative thoughts and emotions continuing to arise as long as were are alive and conscious.

Edit: Trevor, please feel free to jump in on this discussion.
Trevor Beach, modified 8 Months ago at 11/1/21 7:19 AM
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""Yes" for the total elimination of all negative thoughts and emotions, "no" for negative thoughts and emotions continuing to arise as long as were are alive and conscious."

- To fit the options given: No.

My understanding is that the full range of thoughts and emotions are present and available but one is not bound by them. Because of that, they are experienced as what they are instead of objectively negative things. 

This has been a point of confused frustration for me in the past, actually, as I had hoped dearly that what we might call negative aspects of experience would stop happening. Instead, everything has kept happening as it always has, but it sometimes occurs as a part of awareness instead of "happening to me." Same old ordinary emotions, but experienced without the subject-object duality.
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Ni Nurta, modified 8 Months ago at 11/1/21 7:13 AM
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- Sorry Ni Nurta but I think you missunderstand, this is not how it works energy reading, it has nothing to do with vizualisation.

Of course it is not.
You would need visualization to actually be able to experience minds of people different than you. What you do is just check if constructs you have resonate with someone else. It is pretty low level stuff.

It is bhumis you speak of that are visualizations.
And do not get me wrong, visualization can very powerful. Most people cannot however do visualization. They usually need to believe they are discovering something, then and only their minds can visualize.

- Again, this is not what purification is about.. the description Daniel Brown uses for this stage is, elimination of all negative state and flourishing of 70-75 positive states I think, so joy, compassion, care etc...

Details do not matter. What I refered to is trend communities like yours always follow. Once there is nothing else to discover the only thing left is something to do with morality, purification of emotions, etc. Any tradition which claims being already done stops developing anything new. Also any person who claims being done stops developing.

This is not ok. Its disrespective and completely misses the mark about what is the premise for having a discussion.

Kim's outburst looked always like this: Kim comes to DhO, starts topics pretending he invites people to discussion about something. People at first start discussing and Kim apparently not being very patient man quickly says that all teachers are wrong, all techings are wrong, only he and his crew (also some Tibetans from who these teachings come from) know the truth and everyone else is deluded and unripe + he posts a lot of URL's along the way. People call Kim for his BS. Kim makes more topics like these and even if people immediately start calling him out instead of falling in to this trap he still continues his "discussion" about unripeness of other people and posting links. Thing about these URLs is that they were supposed to explain what he is talking about but are mostly about other teachers being unripe and his teachings being superior to everyone's because of how many people he got enlightened.

It looks very similar to what you guys do. It is remarkably similar.
For hundreds of enligthened people surely there must be someone who can rise above and behave like actual human being and not clone of Kim's mental state.
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 11/1/21 11:23 AM
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I was going to say yes, but Trevors explanation is better, though I would add that that the range of a human beings emotion is there, though the pain is gone. So a buddha, like Guru Rinpoche, would express wrath to benefit others, though he himself feels no pain. A phrase I have read several times when it comes to last realization is that there is no hope or fear anymore. So I guess a buddha do not experience fear. 

I think yes no dicothomy does disservice to the question and dialogue Chris, sorry.
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 11/1/21 12:03 PM
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Chris Marti
... if you fully experience them and see their empty nature, there is no one holding them right and so disposing naturally happens, thats how its been for me. 

Oskar, can you please be more precise - are you suggesting the total elimination of the rising of negative thoughts and emotions, or are you suggesting they arise still but are seen as empty and thus not clung to? This is a very important distinction.

Did my former answer work on this latter question Chris? I will try again for my own sake, because this is a tricky question and maybe you or others will join in, I would be interested to hear.

I am saying total elimination of rising emotions. When I have had smaller or longer dropping of self, emotions that arise dissolve, thats my experience, so thats why I stick to it. Still stuff is left, this is the question Malcom posted earlier, meaning there is still selfing going on, fixation but subtler. But a buddha have no rising of disturbing emotions how I see it. 
Also, this has to be distinguished from say compassion or kindness, which isnt an emotion in the same way.

So when you put it: "arise still but are seen as empty and thus not clung to".  I would say f.ex anger do not arise, but the expressing of anger, like dynamic expression can and should happen. So from the outside, an enlightened person can look angry, though peaceful on the inside, which to me makes all the difference because the pain is gone, as well as the need to harm others. This is how I understands it, and how I understand that Guru Rinpoche and a diciple planning to assasin some dharma enemy, like wrath but compassionate if that makes sense. Or Drukpa Kunley sleeping around but still have exhausting desire.
So, if you change the sentence to "arise as dynamic energy, which is empty" then I am all in. The reason for needing this distinction, is that I have sometimes read that people have this awakening, and then they say emotions are still arising but not clung to. In my experience as I said, if self ceases completely, emotions have nothing to stick to, and they will dissolve as long as cessation lasts. 
when its over, you might have "less" emotions, and they might be  much subtler, so not that painful anymore. But if they keep arising, however subtle, then fixation is still happening. That is why "arise but are seen as empty" is not good enough/can be missleading. Sorry for lenghty reply, hope it makes sense.
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 11/1/21 12:04 PM
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Lol, I see I have not figured out how to make thise boxes right emoticon 
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 11/1/21 12:20 PM
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You would need visualization to actually be able to experience minds of people different than you. What you do is just check if constructs you have resonate with someone else. It is pretty low level stuff.

- would like to know what you are refering to, and how these vizualisation works? I know that in Yuthok Nyithig, they might teach stuff like this, but here its justified because used in medicine context, being the lineage of tibetan medicine. 
What is refered to as energy reading here is what they do in Zen caligraphy, reiki and similar stuff. I have seen one other teacher apart from Kims teacher talking about a zen caligraphy master skill to see if a zen calligraphy painting is made of a realized person or not, its interesting and something to look into if you ask me.

Any tradition which claims being already done stops developing anything new. Also any person who claims being done stops developing.

- hmm, kind of agree with you. Lineages usually stick to their stuff nd dont develop further because they have stuff that work or used to work. There are many different lineages though and styles of practices. A person who claims to be done stops develop. depends on how you see it again, some do in the negative sense you talk about here. But others, like an fully enlightened master or mahasiddhas does loads of stuff in my opinion. Like starting lineages, helping people. Thinking of how much work Dilgo khyentse Rinpoche did for survival of tibetan buddhism and so on, in my view their development is more headed outwards though as compassion. 

About your last reply, we simply have different view on this. I dont see it as you do but thats fine. He has not talked about all the people he got enlightened before this year. The stages of enlightenment, from 2pf and onwards are not the same as what we call enlightenment but stages. Though I have seen many people mistake his statistics of 200 people "waking up", as 200 being done practicing which is incorrect. It means they had a taste and a shift. Other teachers are open about this as well, like Daizan skinner has a 3 day retreat I think to get such an insight, and same with Daniel Brown. You see the difference I am making here?

Again, I am not enlightened. And there are not a hundred enlightened people in the sangha, to be precice I think we are just about 80 people. That being said 5 of those have completed their path, and this happened this year, not from the time I think you are refering to. does these distinctions make sense you think?

Oskar
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Not two, not one, modified 8 Months ago at 11/1/21 1:20 PM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Oskar, Trevor, thank you for your generous replies and descriptions of some of your own experiences.  I would make a couple of observations from my own perspective, using my own metaphaors.  Please make use of these or discard them as you see fit.

With large insight moments, there are several things going on. The body-mind system is often (but not always) prepared and 'charged up' or 'focussed' through preparatory practice. The insight itself can generate a huge emotional or psychic charge as well. The moment of insight makes the brain plastic and results in some significant rewiring. And the new perspectives are absoluately fascinating (absorbing) for a while. It can be easy to mistake the effects of the pre and post-charges, or the fascination of the new ways of seeing, as being part of the insight itself. Then people may think they will be permanently in those charged and absorbed states. That doesn't happen, partly because the mind-body oscillates down to a new equilibrium, and partly because you lose the fascination of the new over time, and partly because the causes and conditions are no longer present (e.g. through the preparatory pratice). Also, as you observe Oskar, the remaining non-empty parts of the self can encourage some kind of growing back into that space before the path of insight is complete. So the insights have significant and wonderful effects, but mistaking the associated cool phenomena for the unbinding can lead to clinging and thus suffering. Once the path of insight is complete, you easily can get back to those phenomena with appropriate preparation (or in some cases no preparation), but that is more in the nature of a hobby than the way of being, because those phenomena are not clung to. Just like emotions, as you both observe, they may arise but are not clung to.

Also, in terms of the self, there are many components to it. The simplest way to think about it is form, feeling, perception, voliltion and consciousness, each of which needs to be seen through. But actually as practice advances I find that it is more useful to expand this into the 12 nidanas to give a better explanation of what is going on.  All 12 nidanas are part of the selfing process, so it is common to make progress in one nidana, get some aspect of not-self, but then feel puzzlement or confusion about how it doesn't seem to accord with what others are saying.  So, at one stage you might need to observe how feelings are fabricated from contact, feeling tone, craving and attachment. At another, you might want to dissolve the subject object boundary by ditching divided knowing (consciousness) in favour of non-duality. Then you might suspend conceptual recognition (namarupa) to achieve emptiness. Or you might suspend and reprogramme the normal processes of sensory observation (salayatana) to gain access to the ground of being. These three are somewhat interdependent of course, but in a complex relationship. For example, it is common to have non-empty non-duality and this in particular seems to lead to religious proselytizing ("We all live in the mind of god and the world is filled with the Holy Spirit - stand aside heretic!!). Or you might unwind most of your sankharas to achieve tranquility or equanimity. And so on (there is more). As Chris kindly pointed out to me at an important juncture, there might be glimpses ahead but aren't any short cuts.

The danger is always achieving some part of not-self, and thinking that is 'it' when it just a stage on the journey, as this mistake can lead to rationalistion and emotional suppression. Rationalisations are easier than practice right?  "Surely I've done enough, and anyone who says otherwise must be a bad teacher ... ".  Nope, keep going.  Lightly, with joy and curiosity, happiness for yourself and others, in a spirit of kindness, and with knowledge of the love and support reaching out to you from the many others on the journey.

emoticon

Malcolm
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 11/1/21 3:52 PM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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I think yes no dicothomy does disservice to the question and dialogue Chris, sorry.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, Oskar. Not surprisingly, I think the question presents a clarifying distinction.
Adi Vader, modified 8 Months ago at 11/2/21 1:38 AM
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I have no connection whatsoever with Pemako Sangha.
My experience of awakening in terms of 'affect' is of moving from a permanent low grade fight or flight response (with sometimes increasing strength) to a permanent low grade relaxation response ( which sometimes deepens)

Negative emotions absent, positive emotions present.

No global love, affection, compassion, ecstatic bliss. Nothing fancy like that!

Purely out curiosity (no drama, no challenges), in case you are willing to share, may I know your own direct experience. 
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Ni Nurta, modified 8 Months ago at 11/2/21 1:29 PM
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Description of reduced affect are in line with everything else, including what is expected from "pragmatic dharma" approach and also match results from my own mostly training of perception based practices.

The baseline emotional responses change from constant low level agitation and seeking emotions to relieve stress of boredom to baseline relaxation and feeling fine. Stronger emotional responses do not arise or arise very muted and usually very short lived. Without the anchor of sense of self to which these emotions refer to they are not reigniting themselves and there is also more methods/actions to reach equilibrium faster than through emotions which are themselves pretty taxing for nervous system.

There are 'actions' which nervous system can learn which can trigger switch of parts of nervous system in use, or force momentary inactivity, even actions which can force change in ways neurons react to activity forcing activity elsewhere. Concentraing in specific ways on something which seems like nothing but is actually concentrating on part of mind does also work to spread activity nicely across nervous system and make us feel good. These actions can be learned to do in quite direct fashion but can also be induced to happen in mind through visualizations. Certain visualizations are more likely to trigger some activity in mind which does something beneficial for nervous system and these my understanding is were discovered by some people and passed down in traditions like Vajrayana. Of course they think these things they learned to do which they do not know how they even work are the pinnacle of enlightenment emoticon 
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Not two, not one, modified 8 Months ago at 11/2/21 2:53 PM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Adi, not sure if this was just meant for Chris, but here is my answer.

There is no longer an “own direct experience”.  There is just experience of an ever-recreated processing of perceptions into temporary conceptual frameworks, This process is non-separate, non-centred, non-directed. It feels very human and engaged.

Baseline experience is equanimous, happy, compassionate, joyous. Other mind states come and go to push ‘above’ and ‘below’ this baseline depending on temporary frames of reference, and retained worldly engagement. But these are neither resisted nor clung to.

One interesting feature is that, with increased mind-body efficiency and the removal of limiting factors, there is a tendency towards extraordinary hard work and stupid overachievement, together with some impact of this on tranquility. I have noticed this with at least five others who seem to have a similar mind-body state but don’t live in monasteries - work work work work work.
​​​​​​​
Anyway, for me poetry captures a lot of it.
… While still I may, I write for you
The love I lived, the dream I knew.
From our birthday, until we die,
Is but the winking of an eye;
And we, our singing and our love,
What measurer Time has lit above,
And all benighted things that go
About my table to and fro,
Are passing on to where may be,
In truth's consuming ecstasy,
No place for love and dream at all;
For God goes by with white footfall.
I cast my heart into my rhymes,
That you, in the dim coming times,
May know how my heart went with them
​​​​​​​After the red-rose-bordered hem.
(WB Yeats)
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 11/2/21 3:27 PM
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RE: Pragmatic Vajrayana and Non-Dual Practice

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Thanks Malcom, this is cool reading emoticon If I may share my own experience with what you write?

The body-mind system is often (but not always) prepared and 'charged up'
- I know some whos experience has been like this, though not necessary due to their preperation practices (if you could spesify what you mean by this, like are you aiming at one spesific insight and then does preparation before that, like two separate practices?). I think its because body goes into preparing, it "knows" somthing is about to change. I have periods when some practice is "on" all the time, like from I wake up, untill it flips. 

some significant rewiring. And the new perspectives are absoluately fascinating (absorbing) for a while

- significant rewiring yes, though for me these has always been very normal, so not this facination or absorbtion, but the rewiring for sure. Since we have so much focus on the energy system in Pemako, I usually am able to feel which chakras and channels and where are about to change (though not in the same way in the beginning). So this rewiring is almost predicted. In the beginning it was some shocks though.

causes and conditions are no longer present (e.g. through the preparatory pratice.

- yes to the cause and conditions, still curious about preparatory practice and how this works.


The simplest way to think about it is form, feeling, perception, voliltion and consciousness, each of which needs to be seen through. 

- Yes but different lineages and teachers goes about this differently right?

12 nidans.

- This dependent origination right. In my logic and experience, self happens as a result of ignorance/deluded perception. And then due to this, this and that (the causes in the link) happens, in at some point you get to emotions (which is somewhere in that link). So if one regress, and completely penetrate the ignorance part, then should not the emotions also "completely" dissolve? What is your thought on that? 

 For example, it is common to have non-empty non-duality and this in particular seems to lead to religious proselytizing

- think you nailed this one.

"Surely I've done enough, and anyone who says otherwise must be a bad teacher ... ". 

- I totally agree with the fact that one can think you are done and then not be, and thats a problem. But I think this sometimes overshadow the fact that there is a "done" right, like you here people say practice has no end and that is wrong too.. Now what is done we could (and should) discuss. So, is there a "done" the way you see it Malcolm?

Thanks for lenghty reply
Oskar
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 11/2/21 3:30 PM
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I started a log here you could check out, but has more to write there so not very far You could ask spesifically there if  something catches you interest, and probably I will have more stuff there by some weeks to check out. I have also written some of it here, but then you need to look around a bit emoticon 

Oskar
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 11/2/21 3:31 PM
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Thanks Chris.
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The baseline emotional responses change from constant low level agitation and seeking emotions to relieve stress of boredom to baseline relaxation and feeling fine. Stronger emotional responses do not arise or arise very muted and usually very short lived. 

- cool. Though I struggled abit to understand some of the other stuff in that paragraph, english is not my native language. 

Certain visualizations are more likely to trigger some activity in mind which does something beneficial for nervous system and these my understanding is were discovered by some people and passed down in traditions like Vajrayana. Of course they think these things they learned to do which they do not know how they even work are the pinnacle of enlightenment emoticon

- again not sure if I got all of it. But to use an example if I got it right, are you saying that if I vizualise this x (spesific vizualisation), then I would be able to percieve something in your mind or my mind. and is this due to some reaction or non-reaction in this mind? sorry hard to grasp this.

vizualisation as I see it, and my experience can be different things. Felt like sharing, maybe people can join in on this, its just taken out of my head. It can be 1) an image of nature of mind, like guru rinpoche or a deity from an empowerment. Like through the guru, we learn to percieve our own nature. 2) vizualising say colors or objects at certain location to move energy around. Like I see my feet being black, will send energy down into the body. I have heard some people vizualise themselves as say a mountain (inn martial art) and they become very heavy, maybe thats a step up in terms of skills or maybe its not all that true. Cant come up with other types.
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 11/2/21 3:51 PM
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Malcolm. I had to look emoticon Do you share more of your insights anywhere?
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And why the working? Is it boddhicitta going on?
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Not two, not one, modified 8 Months ago at 11/3/21 2:59 PM
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Hey Oskar, just to respond

- By preparatory practice I mean a strong dose of meditation. There are of course different meditation practices that have different effects.

- I do blather on here and there in the DhO, but don't systematically share insights. You are welcome to ask questions but I can't gaurantee the quality of the answers. emoticon 

- Not sure about the cause of the endless working - but it is only a single observation from me so I wouldn't read too much into it unless others confirm. Looking within, I can see non-resistance and a tendency towards crystallising chaotic potential into skilful processes. But I can't quite pin down the origin of this tendency, or the feedback mechanism that sustains it. It seems unrelated to the five aggregates. So don't know, sorry.

- Five aggregates and DO. Yes different people approach this in different ways. But dissolving ignorance does not get rid of emotions, any more than it gets rid of sense organs or contact. To dissolve ignorance you need to calm down, see through, and reprogram most of the nidanas in some way, including seeing through Jati (rebirth or the sense of self).  But the Jati is not the totality of selfing process.  Ultimately, it is the craving accompanied by passion and delight -  the wallowing in your impulses and feelings - that leads to binding to concepts. The wallowing means you are out of control, and the craving (tanha) and binding to the objects (upadana) leads to unskillful reprogramming or new karma (bhava - the process of forming new sankharas). From this process the sene of self arises and somehow ties the whole system together (jati).  So the aim is to get the process of DO under control, instead of it having you under control. That's how I see it anyway, I'm sure others will have different views.

- Is there a done? Yes, pari-nibbana. You're done when you're dead and the sense organs and nervous system shut down and get eaten by worms.  emoticonBefore that, there is an end to the path of insight as described the suttas, and this is when you see through the last thing supporting the subtle sense of self - what Therevadan's would call fourth path - reality shimmers and you are unbound from 'objects' and freed from clinging.  But whether you regard that as 'done' is up to you. That event will run on for a while in various ways until it reaches an equilibrium (a bit like the computer game of life, where initial conditions play out in complex patterns over time). You can also keep developing concentration skills, powers, morality and so on after reaching the end of the path of insight. The most striking evidence here is that there two classes of arahants in the suttas, those with access to formless realms and those without access to the formless realms - so there is quite a lot of variation. And remember the aphorism that morality is the first training, and morality is the last training - that is, morality is still an important training for arahant, for example through the four right exertions and mindfulness of the snares of mara. Why else stick around in a monastery when you are done?  It's much easier!  (Although to be fair, there is also no particular reason to change at that point - one place is as good as another, except some have nicer views). Also, the emotional system may temporarily shut down after the final insight moment, and take some time to reboot, but this is reflective of the massive charges that have been going through the mind-body system to effect the change. That emotional system is not to be clung too, and not to be resisted.  So how you live and feel when you reach the end of the path of insight will still depend on causes and conditions in your history and environment, as well the subtle intentions you allow to flourish. And of course the residue remaining - the sankhara that haven't been purified during the process, and the sense organs that have not yet been eaten by worms.  
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 11/3/21 4:06 PM
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+1

Very nice summary, Malcolm!
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 11/3/21 3:24 PM
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Right Malcolm emoticon 

Cool thanks for sharing!! I feel I want to dig more as this is quite currious and its a long time since I have read dharma books or checked out other things really, which I did more before (too much actually). For example could you say something more about "ever-created processing"?
And yes we have different approaches and I dont see all these things the same way as you describe, though really enjoy reading it. But then my training is Mahayana and Varjayana and not Therevada which makes a difference in a couple of ways.

I have never had this extraordinary work thing going on at all, but saw that Frank yang guy, and he is off the chart and pretty sure you guys have that in common emoticon Have a nice evening. 

Oskar 
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago at 11/3/21 4:05 PM
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... could you say something more about "ever-created processing"?

Oskar, if you Google the term "dependent origination" you'll get lots of information on this.
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 11/3/21 4:06 PM
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Chris, yes haha, I am familiar with it. I mean I want to hear Malcolm decribe it. 
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 11/3/21 4:14 PM
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I mean, do you percieve how these events originate one following the other, 12 nidanas? Like seeing ignorance, becomming and these things one by one.. cant remember which comes when but you see the point. Might be a stupid question but thats how it sounds like to me. 
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Not two, not one, modified 8 Months ago at 11/3/21 5:05 PM
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Thanks Chris!  emoticon

Oskar - you can't describe it easily as the concepts involved have multiple contextual meanings, levels of aggregation, interactions and feedback loops. So any one description can be erroneously taken for a literal and complete explanation when it is really just an example. Hence doctrinal disputes arise from the erroneous reification of different examples into the totality of DO.  Better to soak in lots of different descriptions to try to build an intuitive understanding, 

Nonetheless, although not easy, it is possible to give a western logical explanation of the whole process, but it would take deep undestanding and some thousands of words of careful writing with a skilled team. Working on it!  You'll just have to wait ... emoticon
Malcolm
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 11/4/21 2:46 AM
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I certainly look forward to reading that!
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 11/4/21 7:33 AM
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I have had good conversations with Kim, so I'm not as worried as some people here are. I certainly agree with you that implying that he has forgotten to take his antipsychotic medicines was a personal attack that does not promote a fair discussion (I suspect that it was a case of paranoia on Ni Nurta's part, actually). I have seen lots of reactivity on all sides in earlier discussions, both from Kim and from people debating with him. There's a lot of baggage from discussions even further back in time. I don't have much of a problem per se with people being reactive.* I do find it problematic when people are unable to acknowledge their own reactivity. That seems to happen on all sides as well. If lack of reactivity becomes a matter of prestige, it seems to happen more often, so please be careful with that.

People use words very differently. You can't pick up a few sentence from someone and think you know what they mean. (Well, obviously one can, but one would be wrong. emoticon )


*) Edited to clarify: I find that clearing out habitual reactivity** is a major part of the practice, so of course remaining reactivity means that there is something to work on. I just don't think that's such a big deal, or at least I find it much more helpful not to make it a big deal. For most practicioners, even highly praised Rinpoches, some limit remains with regard to how much torture one can endure without at least some amount of deeply buried habitual reactivity arises. 

**) This does not at all mean that there can't be human feelings or even fierce responses. I'd say that there's an increase in the register available rather than the other way around. It's a freedom from limiting reactive patterns, a freedom to respond with more richness, nuance, spontaneity and presence. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 11/4/21 7:51 AM
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Not two, not one:

So, at one stage you might need to observe how feelings are fabricated from contact, feeling tone, craving and attachment. At another, you might want to dissolve the subject object boundary by ditching divided knowing (consciousness) in favour of non-duality. Then you might suspend conceptual recognition (namarupa) to achieve emptiness. Or you might suspend and reprogramme the normal processes of sensory observation (salayatana) to gain access to the ground of being. These three are somewhat interdependent of course, but in a complex relationship.


Could we pretty please have a video chat about this some time?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 11/4/21 8:14 AM
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Not two, not one:

There is no longer an “own direct experience”.  There is just experience of an ever-recreated processing of perceptions into temporary conceptual frameworks, This process is non-separate, non-centred, non-directed. It feels very human and engaged.

Baseline experience is equanimous, happy, compassionate, joyous. Other mind states come and go to push ‘above’ and ‘below’ this baseline depending on temporary frames of reference, and retained worldly engagement. But these are neither resisted nor clung to.

I feel like this is what is very gradually developing, with lot of backlashes. I recognize the glimpses and they get more common and last longer. I also recognize when I’m not there, and I find that being able to appreciate that recognition rather than getting involved in disappointment is very helpful where I’m at right now. Paradoxically, in recognizing that I’m not there, I sort of discover that the there is still there.


One interesting feature is that, with increased mind-body efficiency and the removal of limiting factors, there is a tendency towards extraordinary hard work and stupid overachievement, together with some impact of this on tranquility. I have noticed this with at least five others who seem to have a similar mind-body state but don’t live in monasteries - work work work work work.

I find that this is relatable on many scales. The issue can arise already with minor increases in efficiency and and minor removals of limiting factors. Also, it isn’t always a case of remarkable capacities for work or remarkable overachievements. It can be pretty ordinary stuff, from an observer’s perspective, and yet indeed be stupid over-achievement. Living with an atypical neurologic wiring, a society mainly catering to typical wiring poses some touch challenges for me. I have had so many cases of some aspect of liberation occurring, and then spending all the released energy and some more on overcompensating (because now I can), leading to fatigue and affecting my practice later on. This happens both in longer cycles and in shorter cycles. I suspect it is related to the PoI cycling.
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Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 11/4/21 11:29 AM
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Aight emoticon 
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 11/4/21 11:56 AM
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Linda. Thanks for clarifying, you make good points I think.
i have no problem with people being sceptic, asking question and so forth, I have been so myself many many times, and I know for sure that Kim has too, he has said so himself.
I have not spent much time on forums like these though I am aware of this history you mention, so posting an article I think makes several good points and then be met by saint and psychopath questioning and that med thing, is a bit shocking.
​​​​​Its a problem because even though they are off the chart and makes no sense, it still creates alot of fear in people, which entail that people reading can loose judment too and might chose to avoid the discussion, which could have helped them.

​​​​​​​About reaction, yeah its a big one.. is habitual fear reaction good ground for sober judment? Or is it something that distort it?
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Not two, not one, modified 8 Months ago at 11/4/21 12:57 PM
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö
Not two, not one So, at one stage you might need to observe how feelings are fabricated from contact, feeling tone, craving and attachment. At another, you might want to dissolve the subject object boundary by ditching divided knowing (consciousness) in favour of non-duality. Then you might suspend conceptual recognition (namarupa) to achieve emptiness. Or you might suspend and reprogramme the normal processes of sensory observation (salayatana) to gain access to the ground of being. These three are somewhat interdependent of course, but in a complex relationship.
Could we pretty please have a video chat about this some time?

Most certainly!  I guess you can find my email? Or if not I can probably find yours?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 11/4/21 1:26 PM
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I agree with you here. I have made the very same point. The heated discussions reproduce themselves because of mutual suspicion and defensiveness. It's sad that new members here find themselves in the crossfire just because they want to share what they have found helpful. I really hope that you will stay and that we will all manage to break the patterns that limit us. When you think about it, threads like this one are a goldmine in pointing out to all of us what habitual reactivity still limits our register of expression. 

I also think that some of the impression that people get from Kim has to do with cultural differences. Being a Scandinavian myself, I can see that he expresses himself in very Finnish ways. I suspect that Americans and Fins typically aren't exactly a match made in heaven when it comes to taken-for-granted norms of the nuances in social interaction, for instance. The contrast to oriental cultures is probably even greater. I checked him out on youtube during an earlier heated debate and I did not get psychopath vibes (I'm usually rather skilled in detecting them, if I do say so myself). He seemed like a rather typical Finnish dude to me, perhaps with some degree of neuro-atypicality as well (like me, so that's not meant as an insult; normality is overrated if you ask me). 

I have seen statements that he has made several years ago, though, that quite frankly had me bounce in my chair, because even though I'm really not often surprised by any human expression, that kind of (what appeared as) blunt arrogance did surprise me. I can see why people would get suspicious, having seen a lot of that, especially together with advertising transmissions for sale online, reportedly quality-tested by a homecooked method that can only be mastered by his own students. On the other hand, he is definitely neither the first nor the last one going through a phase of obnoxious cockiness on this forum or other dharma forums, and I like to think that we all continue to mature and shouldn't forever have to wear a cross for old mishaps. 

Personally I have my own subjective versions of seeing energies and imbalances and openings, and I find that the gaze from advanced practicioners is often notably different (probably at least partly because of something as banal as the widened scope of their visual field), so I don't find it so strange that one can develop that seeing into something that catches something, or that it can be more or less usefulI do question the absolute objectivity of the findings, though, because I think all seeing is in a sense visualization. I think we subconsciously uphold the consensual world by way of strong collective magick. Perceiving is creating. What we see - even if realized - isn't entirely free, but dependent on karma (including evolution). Humans have lots of shared karma. Smaller groups have shared karma too. Eventually even bhumis or other aspects of dharma maps (and there certainly are lots of different ones) need to be seen through as empty. 

​​​​​​​As for the complaints of spamming, I myself have often posted links to teachings that I have found helpful, and I have often recommended Michael Taft who is incredibly expensive for paying students. I guess the difference is that I usually only do it in my own log, as part of my own notes, or when someone asks for such links. Commersializing the dharma can be a hot potato per se, even though lots of people here (probably the majority?) are okay with paying for teachings. Kim is certainly not the only one trying to make a living from his teachings. He might be the only one that I have seen actually advertising for his own not free teachings at this forum, though, or at least the one closest to doing it. But honestly, even Michael Taft - who is generally very well respected here - welcomes his students to spread the word when he has developed a new course for which he charges money. I know that first-hand. That's the reality we live in, whether or not we like it. 

So I think there's a conflation of several different conditions that make people wary, and it often grows out of proportion. I don't think habitual fear-based reactions are good for much else than survival of the animal in us in life-threatening situations. This is not it. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 11/4/21 2:57 PM
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Oh yay! emoticon

Honestly, I have no idea how to find your email address, and I suck at checking my four different email accounts. How about you contact me at [removed] and then let me know in my log that you have done so? 

And let me know here when you have jotted down my email address. Then I'll remove it. Thanks! 
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Not two, not one, modified 8 Months ago at 11/4/21 2:52 PM
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Got it! 
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 11/4/21 3:16 PM
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Oh, I am here to stay for a while, I started my own log you can check out if you like.  

I am also scandianavian, Norway emoticon 

You know these statements can all be tested, I can feel all these bhumi plates quite easy know from practice, iI know they are "storrage units" for karmic stuff as well as deluded perception, from my own investigstion and shifts from purifiying some of them. I know what is meant by a "shift" as we call it, and I know that he can percieve my insight as good and sometimes better than me because he has proven it several times when I was off in my own judgment. It can seem very strange never having heard about it, but remember one can figure it out oneself, all the info you need is out there and you can also ask pemako sangha people and they will be happy to share to the best of their ability. It has never been secretive or hidden. This is one of the anyoing fear reactions consequenses, that people dont bother to check. So one can say these things are arrogant, that mens aying this stuff is arrogant, or one could challenge the view, ask question and figure out. If it proves to be right, then there is no arrogance, just telling the truth you know, or you can try to prove it wrong emoticon 
The learning of sensing these things has takem him years, and he is incredible accurat, like its ridiculus (its much harder seeing shifts in others than in one self I think) Many of us in the sangha are practicing this and its fucking difficult skill. Also he doesnt do it on us anymore, because he wants us to learn it ourselves, so this is not an income for him really. And i didnt mind when it was because again very precise and helpfull for me. 

Yeah, maps are good because its helpfull to know where you are and what to do, everyone should use a map haha! but you are supposed to finnish it emoticon

Yes, money. I know he tried for a while living on donation but that didnt work in the west at all so one need to get paid if providing for a family..that being said, if one does not have money just that is ok, retreats can be joined anyway, or payment discussed to adjust ones paycheck, this has always been the case. Also there are hundreds of free videos on youtube and books that are free,when I did 2pf the teacher helping me said money was noo problem at all, and thats how I do it as well, so to be honest I struggle to see the money problem here.. 

thanks again for your thoughts, good stuff Linda, let me know if you visit oslo one day and we can meet upemoticon 




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Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 11/4/21 4:21 PM
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Being a Scandinavian myself, I can see that he expresses himself in very Finnish ways<br /><br />- hehe, I probably should not say this, but I know he has been taking shit for not being a tibetan. I think its very good with western teachers, and necessary, this forum is to me a western respons to some of the cultural bagage that is not needed for proper practice, pragmatism. Everyone have buddhanature, being a finn, african, chinese or monkey, no difference at all, very very important!<br /><br />&nbsp;I did not get psychopath vibes.<br /><br />- Its discusting people saying this. I have known him and talked to him so much, that is one of the reasons why I say these reactions are fear based, because it so far fetched.. Also he has changed in accordance with his insights, no anxiety anymore I can tell for sure, you can check out resent videos and see if you notice a difference.&nbsp;<br /><br />Personally I have my own subjective versions of seeing energies and imbalances and openings, and I find that the gaze from advanced practicioners is often notably differen<br /><br />- Cool, how? I wrote a bit about this in my log. In my experience there are channels surrounding the eyes, that when purified let the eyes relax more. That seems to me to be the main reason why insights change the outlook of a person, and especially eyes though also posture and other biological things can change.<br /><br /><em>&nbsp;</em>I do question the absolute objectivity of the findings, though, because I think&nbsp;<em>all</em>&nbsp;seeing is in a sense visualization.<br /><br />- Its a very good point, and something I also have pondered alot. I know some zen teachers evaluate the debth of realization of a teacher based on his calligraphy which is really cool and hits the same point. In my experience, since this has been so central the last years I have got really hung up on energies, and the energies of people and places. Practice and shifts has made me much more positive to the objectiveness of this, though I certanly symphatize with the view you present.<br />Also if you try do Guru yoga with Yeshe Tsogyal or milarepa for a while and then change to Eckhart Tolle or Osho you will see the difference in a moment, like two different worlds.&nbsp;<br /> 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 11/4/21 5:18 PM
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I can feel the chakras. I can feel both the Tibetan set of chakras and the modern version of yoga chakras, even though they are incompatible. They are both very helpful for me. Oh, and I have felt the dantiens from Qigong too. And none of them is in any way absolute.  The Bhumi system is but one of many similar systems. They are all constructions. Still helpful, but as I see it, it's important not to reify them, and they are certainly not the entire truth. But great if they help you in your practice! That's good stuff! Powerful magick! That is NOT meant in any pejorative way, just to be clear. I see Tantra as a magickal practice, and I have heard Lama Lena saying something similar. I think that aspect of it serves insight because it illustrates how reality is constructed. When we can actively create versions of reality, then, hopefully, we can also unhook ourselves from buying into our previously taken-for-granted reality. That's not the same thing as dismissing conditions that are very real to people, though; that lacks compassion and is also misunderstanding the whole thing.  

It was Kim himself who said that his reading of photos was a technique that could be verified by his students only, in one of our dialogues, because they were the only ones who had learned the technique (naturally, since he developed it). And further back in time, he publically diagnosed a large number of respected teachers with that specific technique, making a point of how they were all not realized enough, whereas he himself was. He stopped doing that, thankfully, and I think that was a wise decision. That kind of jargon really didn't reflect well on him. I suspect he is one of those people who gives a better impression face-to-face than in writing online. From what you are telling me, he sounds decent, and he has been nothing but kind to me. I'm not impressed by how he has handled earlier discussions here, but I'm not impressed by how others handled them either. Personally, I prefer my trusted teachers to at least admit it when they are being reactive, and sadly that seems to be a rare quality. If someone fails to admit his own reactivity, I don't care how many Bhumis he has opened or how many Theravadan paths he has attained; the teacher-student relationship wouldn't do it for me. That rules out a lot of people. I can still learn from them, but only selectively. 

I think it's important not to uncritically buy into methods of certifying levels of realization which cannot be independently verified or falsified. That does however not mean that all such methods are cultlike and signs of someone being a psychopath. If you all find it helpful, then very cool! Personally, I find it interesting. It's just not at the top of my priority list. 

Yeah, I'm not in any position to blame him for making a living. I would have to blame most Western dharma teachers in that case, and I find blaming people very tiresome. 

I was guessing from your name that you were Norwegian. emoticon Norrköping, Sweden, here. I also stay a lot in Stockholm (or will do again when the covid situation calms down). Let me know if you come here too! 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 11/4/21 5:37 PM
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I find it very unfair and saddening when people badmouth Daniel, so I can definitely sympathize. And Daniel has said stuff too earlier on that taken out of context sure makes him sound completely differently from the person I have seen in conversations. (Heh, who hasn't? Ever, I mean?)

I'm really glad to hear that his anxiety is gone. I have much less anxiety too. Much less reactivity. There was an abundance to begin with, though, so still lots to work with, lol. Sometimes I forget how much has actually been released. It's good to remind myself of what I used to struggle with.

Lots of cool points. I appreciate our conversation. I would like to reply about how I see energies, but right now I'm very tired, and trying to put things into words is draining for me even when I'm not tired to begin with. Let's come back to it some other time. Sleep well! 
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Hmm, cool. I also have practice with dan tien in qi gong, and yes different systems. 

​​​​​​OK. I dont see it as magic at anymore, guru yoga, chakras and so forth has no mystism in it. When too much mystic happens I get hesitant actually.

​​​​​​​About the technique i posted a link about a lady that opened the whole central channel on her own, and had excellent understanding of the bhumis, no empowerment and no guidance from teacher. That is 13 openeing, which is not the same as 10 perfections, like not done or enlightened, a common missunderstanding, but pretty awesome still. Maybe kim wrote you wrong or there was missunderstanings but everyone should be able to use it just to make that clear.

I never had the oppurtunity to see that famous discission hehe, to be clear again, he never claimed himself to be enlightened there either. maybe he said he had 13 opened and then confusion happened, i dont know? But it can appeaer as such because not good enough explanatiom of the bhumi model and strong reactions. But probably best not to go into that discussions again haha 
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Mhm, yes. Like we are in this together, suffering, easy to forget and then we start run each other down, ruining it for everyone really. I do it and others do, so agree with you there.

Awesome Linda, gogogo emoticon

Sure, energies are super intersting and important. If you like I have written some in myblog, and intend to do more there if you wanna reply there? Then I have an excuse to remember to write about it there. I also have written some about how I have worked with my anxiety, and I think something that would be cool to explore with others as well as it seems to be common for people in this time. This thread was supposed to be about pragmatic varjayana and then it exploded lol
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terry, modified 8 Months ago at 11/5/21 12:49 PM
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I thought this quite funny and insightful, as a quintessential western vajrayana pragmatic buddhist practice:

spinning my prayer wheel when watching TV!

more truth in jokes than anywhere else

t


​​​​​​​nice to see stirling and malcolm again...
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terry, modified 8 Months ago at 11/5/21 12:53 PM
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the sufis tell of man lost in the desert, dying of thirst, who stumbled upon a flask...

he was bitterly disappointed when he opened the cap to find that the flask contained only

​​​​​​​pearls...
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terry, modified 8 Months ago at 11/5/21 2:32 PM
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akoha trevor,

   You said:

  Training in recognizing rigpa is #1 priority in our practice as well.  The whole purpose of RBY is to consistently establish recognition of our basic nature and then to stabilize that recognition.

   
This western buddhism, as bhikkhu thanissaro might point out, bears a striking resemblance to good old fashioned christian methodism. The methodists spoke of conversion and sanctification in much the same way.

   Not necessarily bad if recognized, but one might want to examine whether by "basic nature" one refers to some sort of existent, living, active "god" of whom one might impute qualities, robes and garments, and so on and on creating new webs to ensnare ourselves in.

   The final snares are pleasure and amusement in spiritual things. Trungpa used to call it, "spiritual materialism."

terry


from "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism" by chogyam trungpa 

https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-WB1Fzh_m8LjpIk16/Cutting%20Through%20Spiritual%20Materialism_djvu.txt

Ego is able to convert everything to its own use, even spiri- 
tuality. For example, if you have learned of a particularly 
beneficial meditation technique of spiritual practice, then 
ego's attitude is, first to regard it as an object of fascination 
and, second to examine it. Finally, since ego is seeming solid 
and cannot really absorb anything, it can only mimic. Thus 
ego tries to examine and imitate the practice of meditation 
and the meditative way of life. When we have learned all the 
tricks and answers of the spiritual game, we automatically try 
to imitate spirituality, since real involvement would require 
the complete elimination of ego, and actually the last thing 
we want to do is to give up the ego completely. However, we 
cannot experience that which we are trying to imitate; we can 
only find some area within the bounds of ego that seems to 
be the same thing. Ego translates everything in terms of its 
own state of health, its own inherent qualities. It feels a sense 
of great accomplishment and excitement at having been able 
to create such a pattern. At last it has created a tangible ac- 
complishment, a confirmation of its own individuality. 

If we become successful at maintaining our self-conscious- 
ness through spiritual techniques, then genuine spiritual de- 
velopment is highly unlikely. Our mental habits become so 
strong as to be hard to penetrate. We may even go so far as 
to achieve the totally demonic state of complete "Egohood." 
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watering down water...

​​​​​​​lol...
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oskar posted this:


And here is the video with Garchen Rinpoche, I havent seen the whole video but a friend from the sangha posted this part some months ago, maby will see it later, I think his precense is some of the most astonishing I have seen, and if I get the chance to see him I will: 

"Now I am completely purified, ready to die..." at 49 minuts. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcfEJwQflJI



my comment:

and at 50 mins he was presumably proven to be a liar...
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this is really sweet, linda...these are the posts that stay in my heart...


(linda said)


Sure, but it just seems safer not to jump to any conclusions, as those who do tend to get awfully unskillful. If I ever get there, I hope it will be reflected in my behavior. 

Edited to clarify: I don't have any issues with Garchen Rinpoche saying that he has completed his purification. My point is rather that I deeply respect that he doesn't need to boast about it or badmouth other teachers in order to market himself. 
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linda said:

Commersializing the dharma can be a hot potato per se, even though lots of people here (probably the majority?) are okay with paying for teachings. 

-------------


Really?

Wow....

This being itself a noncommercial site, it's not just another brick in the wall.

I'd give people here a little more credit.

​​​​​​​t
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Aloha terry - I see you!  Or Kia Ora, as we say in my country.

And for the analytically minded (which is of course not compulsory) I would just note that the objects of these discussions can be turned into practice, if you want. They are dharmas, or mind objects, or the fourth frame of reference, from the satipatthana sutta. They can be subject to mindful investigation in the way specified in that sutta for that frame of reference. They are also related to stage 9 of anapansati - experiencing the mind - but then they have to be let go in stages (I would provisionally say stage 10 for sankharas, 12 for cravings, 14 for duality, 15 for concepts, 16 for the dharma itself). And this process can be supported by deeper TMI-style concentration (11) and vipassana (13).

Although frankly, now that I know that spinning a prayer wheel while watching Love Island is a viable alternative, I'm starting to regret my choices. emoticon 

​​​​​​​Malcolm
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I can say with complete confidence that garchen rinpoche, whoever this person is, completed purification before their parents were born...
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oskar said:


Yes, money. I know he tried for a while living on donation but that didnt work in the west at all so one need to get paid if providing for a family..that being said, if one does not have money just that is ok, retreats can be joined anyway, or payment discussed to adjust ones paycheck, this has always been the case. Also there are hundreds of free videos on youtube and books that are free,when I did 2pf the teacher helping me said money was noo problem at all, and thats how I do it as well, so to be honest I struggle to see the money problem here.. 


   
I wonder if his students have gotten him 93 rolls royce's yet.

   Enlightened people fully grasp that all a person really needs is a handful of grains per day. If one works for the dharma all that is needful appears on its own.

   Selling water by the riverside is a hustle no matter whether the fool can afford it or not, so saying the victims are willing is not exculpatory.

   Buddhism is the solution, late capitalism is the problem. Selling the dharma "to support my family" is only the latest sign of the apocalypse.

   I mean, what would the buddha think? What would he say to Fetter? "Here's some walking around money, son, take a girl out."

   I'm sure these guys are selling something, but it's not the dharma. Caveat emptor.

​​​​​​​t
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my family is all sentient being...

​​​​​​​if you would like to donate, take care of your self and your ohana...
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terry, modified 8 Months ago at 11/6/21 1:53 PM
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from the rubaiyat of omar khayyam, trans fitzgerald:


​​​​​​​LXXI.

 And much as Wine has play'd the Infidel,
 And robb'd me of my Robe of Honour—well,
   I often wonder what the Vintners buy
 One half so precious as the Goods they sell.
  
Oskar M, modified 8 Months ago at 11/6/21 6:09 PM
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Malcolm and Chris, I have thought about the discussion regarding emotions arising after enlightenment vs not arising anymore at all. I said that when self ceases, for longer or shorter moments, there is nothing for emotions to hold on to and so they fade, diminish and stop existing, and there is neither any cause- a self- so they dont arise either. Point is to exhaust all parts of the self, so there is no longer any cause for new disturbing emotions to arise.

I looked around a bit, and its pretty clear from mahayana perspective that disturbing emotions are to be eliminated and not arise, and so your view Malcolm that this is not in accordance with buddhism, I think is wrong.
"Oskar - prizing the "exhuastion of all negative mind states" is a straighforward denial of emptiness. It involves passion resistance and clinging to a human created ideal of 'non-negativity'." 
Its not a denial of emptiness, its what naturally happens when self is seen through as empty. I understand this causes the confusions like 1) the "apathetic person that supresses emptions but says he is liberated", or  2) is the buddha "emotionless"? Maybe people like to share thoughts on this? I have already given it a go a couple of times emoticon Should also mention that Kim talks about much better than I in the video on cessation I posted in this log some time ago. 

I looked around a bit and found two qotes that shows this pretty clearly, and in general its not hard to find if you check any book by a Mahayana master and type in "emotions" or "exhaustion" hehe, that the aim is to fully purify them and exhaust them and their cause. If you find other Mahayana sources please let me know. Also keen to hear your or other peoples thoughts on this, its kind of a sensitive topic I think in several ways,  but also very central. 

1.

What is the purpose of teaching dependent arising?
The master Nagarjuna, whose very nature is compassion, saw that living beings are beset by various sufferings and assumed the task of teaching the reality of things just as it is so that they might be free.
He therefore began teaching dependent arising.
For, it is said: "Seeing what is not real, you are bound; Seeing the real, you are free."
What is the reality of things just as it is?
It is the absence of essence.
Unskilled persons whose eye of intelligence is obscured by the darkness of delusion conceive of an essence in things and then generate attachment and hostility with regard to them.
When the illumination of the knowledge of dependent arising clears away the darkness of delusion and the eye of wisdom sees the absence of essence in things, then there is no foundation for the other afflictions, and attachment and hostility do not develop.
---
Buddhapalita
[From the book "The Great Treatise On The Stages Of The Path To Enlightenment]

2. 
From the book Crystal Clear On vipashyana and shamata 
Please put it into practice; for by doing so your mind will grow more steady and peaceful, and you will feel an increasing sense of ease. This pleasurable feeling may provide the solid foundation from which the clear insight of vipashyana will develop. Generating a state of calm causes negative emotions to subside to some extent, but does not eliminate them totally. Therefore, regard shamatha as the foundation for training in vipashyana.
...
What then is vipashyana in the context of Mahamudra? First of all, we have "bewildered ourselves" into sarnsara. During this confused state, we do not see clearly the true nature of things, what reality is. The practice of vipashyana develops the ability to see clearly the actual state of affairs. This is the meaning of vipashyana: to see the basic condition of what is. Training in vipashyana eliminates negative emo[1]tions and clarifies our lack of knowing, our ignorance.
It also deepens our insight and wisdom.
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Malcolm, I just re-read one of your post and felt I needed to comment on this. 

"This is of course present in many religions, pretty much exactly as Uncles SId described, as it is quite easy to bind to compassion (for example) as an absorption to change your relationship to 'reality'."

- I think Malcolm there is a difference in our approaches, as you talk from sutta point of view. In Mahayana compassion is seen differently, not as an absorbtion (though I guess thats one way it can be practices). Also its two ways to look at it, relative and absolute bodhicitta. So its loads of emphasis on generating compassion (relative), motivation and so forth, and then more and more intergrating it with the view of emptiness (absolute), that emptiness and compassion is the same thing. 
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Oskar - just replying in the general line of the thread, as otherwise I find the discussion gets a bit lost in the sub-threads. 

"Malcolm and Chris, I have thought about the discussion regarding emotions arising after enlightenment vs not arising anymore at all. I said that when self ceases, for longer or shorter moments, there is nothing for emotions to hold on to and so they fade, diminish and stop existing, and there is neither any cause- a self- so they dont arise either. Point is to exhaust all parts of the self, so there is no longer any cause for new disturbing emotions to arise."

Then, can you explain why you still have a body and need to eat and drink, breathe and wear clothes? Whatever arguments you use to justify these remaining parts of the self, I can then apply to each of the other five aggregates. So the position you put forward is non-sensical. 

"In Mahayana compassion is seen differently, not as an absorbtion (though I guess thats one way it can be practices). Also its two ways to look at it, relative and absolute bodhicitta. So its loads of emphasis on generating compassion (relative), motivation and so forth, and then more and more intergrating it with the view of emptiness (absolute), that emptiness and compassion is the same thing."

Yes, compassion can be attached to many things.  But accordinng to the suttas, Karuna (compassion) is a practice that gives access to the ground of infinite space.  So it is easy to feel expanded and slightly non-dual as a result of compassionate practices.  But that is not emptiness.  Instead compassion is empty too - I'm not saying compassion is thereofore absent. No, I agree it tends to be a default state of awakening, as the natural corollary of overcoming ignorance. But it arises and passes away like everything else, and is empty of enduring separate essence like anything else.  It is just an overlay of a concept onto sense-data like everything else. Emptiness is not compassion; instead emptiness is none other than form. Not to be clung to.  It should be clearly seen as impermanent, not-self, and a potential source of unsatisfactroriness.  If you cannot clearly see the three characteristics of compassion, then you have a task ahead of you.

Nagarjuna quote - yes this is all material that accords with my understanding.  There is a passing comment that Nagarjuna's very nature is compassion, but that reads more like hagiography of the invidual than dharma about DO. 

Crystal Clear quote - couldn't see the source of this so unable to assess accuracy, or tranlsation. But the somewhat offhand comment that vipassana eliminates negative emotions is wrong.  

Now if you want to get rid of almost all negative emotions, you can get close by purifying almost all sankharas and living among acolytes who gently tend to your every whim.  But even then you still experience the occasional arising.  Osho is a great example - you can see in the video of Wild Wild Country how pissed off he was when he found out what Sheela had been doing!  However, if you are awakened these arisings do not stick, and you can choose how to react to them, and you can enjoy them (positive and negative emotions) without creating new karma/sahkhara/programming. You can maybe carry on and erase almost all social programming and biological drives if you really want to, in theory, but the people who do this are usually pretty humble and are prone to dropping dead (likely by choice) - e.g. Paramahansa Yogananda. If general, you are not done until you die and the worms eat your nervous system and there is no particular need to accelerate that process. It comes soon enough and you don't want to miss out on experience (including compassion)!  But I think it is a very common error across many versions of buddhism to confuse awakening during the lifetime with the characteristics of pari-nibbana.

So you may ask, what evidence would I accept?  Well that is a reasonable question, and I will tell you.  If somebody wants to say negative emotions no longer arise, then I expect they should be able to explain how they arose in the first place. They should also have direct experience of packets of sense data arising and passing away, solidifying into an overarching sensation within the body, that then interacts with biological drives or subconsious sankharas to create a broader feelling, with the feeling being observed in terms of pressure, location, movement, energy, followed by recognition of the overlaying of a concept on that feeling to become the emotion, and then seeing how a positive or negative evaluation is attached to that emotion, and how that leads to a momentary urge that in turn triggers some higher level sankhara, how that matures into a wallowing in desire, and then how the act of wallowing creates attachment that refinforces the subject/object distinction, leading to recreation of karma and becoming of the sensation of self, followed by pain, suffering, old age, misery and death. I would expect somebody to have direct knowlege of every part of that process (vipassana), and then to have observed how each part could be changed or renounced, and then what happens as a result. After that, I think they would have valuable evidence about the changes to emotion upon awakening. (P.S. don't go thinking you have to die at the last stage - rather you have to clearly see the fabrication of the concept of death).

Then I would want to them to say what part or parts of that process still operates, how the organism can continue to learn operate in daily life without emotion, and how it is they still experience pain from a hot element, adrelain from being chased by a dog, and enjoyment in sex or jhana.  And whether positive emotions endure and if so exactly how these differ from negative emotions, given the common practices of reversing vedana (e.g. cemetary contemplations or contemplations on the repulsiveness of the body) demonstrate that the distinction between negative and positive emotion is somewhat arbitrary.

You know, when Buddha became awakened he almost kept it all to himself.  At first he couldn't face the thought of teaching because it would just be too much trouble. How many open bhumis is that?  Doesn't sound like too many!  emoticon

May all beings be free from clinging, and to quote Linji Yixuan "If you see the Buddha on the road, Kill Him!"  But I repeat myself ... 

Hope you enjoyed the answer. I enjoyed the visit to the azuric realm!

Love 

Malcolm
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