Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayana, )

Sam Gentile, modified 3 Months ago.

Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayana, )

Posts: 1344 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Hi,

I have been practining Vipassana here and with my teacher until I reached SE. I then added a Dzogchen Immersion course taught by Mingyur Rinpoche after gettinng pointiing out instruction. So I am doing both. I was wondering if others here are practing primarly Tibetan methods (and I nowhere listed all of them) and would like to share your experiences.
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This very moment, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 55 Join Date: 7/6/17 Recent Posts
Yep.  

Primarily through Wake up to your Life with Ken Mcleod.  I am taking a Panoramic awareness course,  in addition,  with Lama Justin Wall.  
There are several practitioners here and on  https://awakenetwork.org/   with good practice logs up.  

How did you " qualify " for the Dzogchen course?   and curious to how you got pointing out instructions.  
Sam Gentile, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 1344 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
This very moment
Yep.  

Primarily through Wake up to your Life with Ken Mcleod.  I am taking a Panoramic awareness course,  in addition,  with Lama Justin Wall.  
There are several practitioners here and on  https://awakenetwork.org/   with good practice logs up.  

How did you " qualify " for the Dzogchen course?   and curious to how you got pointing out instructions.  

I qualified  by 8 years of meditation in Mi ngyur Rinpoche's system and was given the pointing out instructions by Lama Lena in a retreat. How did you qualify?
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This very moment, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 55 Join Date: 7/6/17 Recent Posts
That is great that you have a strong background with Mingyur, I thought most of your practice was based on MCTB.  I have enjoyed several of Lama Lena's talks on Dzogchen.  Not sure I have the time or inclination to jump through all the hoops necessary to get to his Dzogchen course. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 5869 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I guess I could say that I am, although I consider myself mainly eclectic. I have taken several retreats with Lama Lena who teaches both Dzogchen and Mahamudra. I'm trying to qualify for her secret rushen retreat that will supposedly sort out the doing once and for all. I'm also on Michael Taft's Reversing the Stack part 2 which builds on Dzogchen, Mahamudra and Mahayana. 
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö
I guess I could say that I am, although I consider myself mainly eclectic. I have taken several retreats with Lama Lena who teaches both Dzogchen and Mahamudra. I'm trying to qualify for her secret rushen retreat that will supposedly sort out the doing once and for all. I'm also on Michael Taft's Reversing the Stack part 2 which builds on Dzogchen, Mahamudra and Mahayana. 
Interesting that she places rushen as restricted access.  Do you know if rushen is then considered a necessary access for togal teachings with LL?
Sam Gentile, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 1344 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö
I guess I could say that I am, although I consider myself mainly eclectic. I have taken several retreats with Lama Lena who teaches both Dzogchen and Mahamudra. I'm trying to qualify for her secret rushen retreat that will supposedly sort out the doing once and for all. I'm also on Michael Taft's Reversing the Stack part 2 which builds on Dzogchen, Mahamudra and Mahayana. 

Hi Linda!
Did you see Micheal Taft's new course Vast Sky Mind: Fundamentals of Nondual Meditation and Awakening by Micheal Taft.

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Thanks for th epointer to Lama Lena months ago where I finally got me pointing out instructions.
I'm not on here too often (in part because I don't see many people posting about Dzogchen/Mahamudra), but I do appreciate that this community exists. I practice with Dan Brown's Pointing Out the Way Community. He teaches Mahamudra and Dzogchen (Bon). His tradition has been mentioned here several times so I won't go into depth. I would say that what I think is unique about his approach is that he's been a practicing clinical psychologist for four decades or so and so he's bringing that tradition into the teaching along with a similar depth of experience in the Indo-Tibetan Buddhist traditions as well. His approach is based on providing very clear and detailed instructions as well as addressing certain psychological (attachment, mood, etc.) concerns along the way. If you're interested in checking it out there is Wednesday night community meditation online about twice a month on the Pointingoutway.org.
Oskar Aas, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 6 Join Date: 3/22/21 Recent Posts
Hi, I have been practicing with Kim Katami (Kim Thubten Lingpa) for soon three years. He teaches his own mind termas, and I would say have a very westernized style, sort of similar to Dan Brown in the sense of transparacy and openness about the method which I think is good for this time and age we are living in.

About experiences, you can read here: https://www.pemakobuddhism.com/35532, this includes many personal accounts from people in my sangha. Its a bit old, and since alot have happened in the sangha since then, there probably will come an updated version later this year. For myself I would shortly summarize; much less disturbing emotions, and a quite open and naturally clear mind. Still much work to do though, so have a look in the book emoticon 
I do practice various methods described within Tibetan Buddhism.  Some of my experiences are described here, particularly in entries from the past couple years.

​​​​​​​https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5873597 
Sam Gentile, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 1344 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Noah D
I do practice various methods described within Tibetan Buddhism.  Some of my experiences are described here, particularly in entries from the past couple years.

​​​​​​​https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5873597 


Thank You! I'll look.
Trevor Beach, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 7 Join Date: 4/15/21 Recent Posts
Hi, Sam,

I started a thread here about this very subject:  https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/22769652

I hope you take a look and like what you see :-)
Sam Gentile, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 1344 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Trevor Beach
Hi, Sam,

I started a thread here about this very subject:  https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/22769652

I hope you take a look and like what you see :-)

Thanks for doing this but this is not what I am studying and practing. I am studying Pure Dzogchen in the lineage of Mingyur Rinpoche and now I have started a non-dual class called Vast  Sky Mind.
Sam Gentile, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 1344 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Thank you everyone. I'll be sure to look at your logs. As I said, I practice Dzogchen, and I oublish a little about in my log and my teacher has just given me permission to take Micheal Taft's Vast Sky Mind: Fundamentals of Nondual Meditation and Awakening by Micheal Taft.
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Stirling Campbell, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 602 Join Date: 3/13/16 Recent Posts
I started with pointing out instructions with Ngakpa Chogyam Rinpoche. I took refuge with Gyatrul Rinpoche in the 90's, and Lojong/Treckchod, etc., Ngondro in 2002 with Tharchin Rinpoche (Dudjom Tersar). Lojong training and Trekchod training still crop up occasionally, but resting in Rigpa as often as possible is my practice at this point. Even though I work with a Soto Zen teacher now, I still love these teachings and teach them. Dzogchen absolutely has some past connection to Zen, as they are very similar.

I really love "Waking Up to Your Life"!

Ken McLeod's Lojong training book was my training manual... just fabulous:

https://www.amazon.com/Great-Path-Awakening-Cultivating-Compassion/dp/1590302141
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Norman Fischer (my Soto lineage) does a great job with his own version of this mind training:

https://www.amazon.com/Training-Compassion-Teachings-Practice-Lojong/dp/1611800404
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I also really like Daniel Brown's book  "Pith Instructions...". Real Dzogchen is always simple and clear.  
Sam Gentile, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 1344 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
To those who are Dzogchen practioners.
I have a concern. I did my work to "qualify" for Mingyur Rinpoche's Dzogchen with meditation experience and pointing out instructions. 

Now, I'm in Micheal Taft's Vast Open Sky class and my meditation pod with members only having 2 years of experience and NO pointing out instructions is trying to read and practice Dzogchen. Micheals class is on non-dual and not really Dzogchen. This is not correct right? They need pointing out instructions right?
Sam Gentile, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 1344 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
To answer my own question, I asked Tim Olmsted aSenior Teacher of Mingyur Rinpoche:
There are many texts that anyone can read about Dzogchen.  These days there are many  who think that their approach, whatever that may be, is the equivalent of Dzogchen.  But, pointing out is the entrance to the practice path of Dzogchen.
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Michael Taft is not teaching Dzogchen by any means. I appreciate him and his perspective. He brings a lot of experience practicing in different traditions to the table. However, his meta-modern approach doesn't really emphasize or adhere to tradition. From a podcast I listened to recently, I get the sense that he has worked in a tradition and followed everything with a lot of trust and faith and ultimately that didn't work for him. Meanwhile Dzogchen very much does adhere to tradition and requires transmission from an authorized teacher to practice appropriately, at least according to all the teachers and experts that I trust on this subject. I don't know what he requires for his courses. I wonder why you're concerned about the other students?
Do his instructions resonate with you?
For you, does he seem like someone with wisdom and understanding that you would like to learn from?

If the answer is yes, then why not try to drop the doubt for the course and get the most out of the experience. If, on the other hand, it's simply not resonating with you and you are really compelled to follow a lineage in the Dzogchen tradition then you should do that.

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Sam Gentile, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 1344 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Stephen
Michael Taft is not teaching Dzogchen by any means. I appreciate him and his perspective. He brings a lot of experience practicing in different traditions to the table. However, his meta-modern approach doesn't really emphasize or adhere to tradition. From a podcast I listened to recently, I get the sense that he has worked in a tradition and followed everything with a lot of trust and faith and ultimately that didn't work for him. Meanwhile Dzogchen very much does adhere to tradition and requires transmission from an authorized teacher to practice appropriately, at least according to all the teachers and experts that I trust on this subject. I don't know what he requires for his courses. I wonder why you're concerned about the other students?

Hi Stephen 
I totally agree with you. I am taking his class on non dual because I find his teachings on that and his meditations speak to me. For my Dzogchecn studies, I did get transmission from  and study in the lineage of Mingyur Rinpoche. I am concerned about these other students because I wanted to protect the lineage. I got this answer from Tim Olmsted one of Mingyur Rinpoche's Senior teachers on this:
There are many texts that anyone can read about Dzogchen.  These days there are many  who think that their approach, whatever that may be, is the equivalent of Dzogchen.  But, pointing out is the entrance to the practice path of Dzogchen.
​​​​​​​
Do his instructions resonate with you?
For you, does he seem like someone with wisdom and understanding that you would like to learn from?

If the answer is yes, then why not try to drop the doubt for the course and get the most out of the experience. If, on the other hand, it's simply not resonating with you and you are really compelled to follow a lineage in the Dzogchen tradition then you should do that.
​​​​​​​
Sam Gentile, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 1344 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Sam Gentile
Stephen
Michael Taft is not teaching Dzogchen by any means. I appreciate him and his perspective. He brings a lot of experience practicing in different traditions to the table. However, his meta-modern approach doesn't really emphasize or adhere to tradition. From a podcast I listened to recently, I get the sense that he has worked in a tradition and followed everything with a lot of trust and faith and ultimately that didn't work for him. Meanwhile Dzogchen very much does adhere to tradition and requires transmission from an authorized teacher to practice appropriately, at least according to all the teachers and experts that I trust on this subject. I don't know what he requires for his courses. I wonder why you're concerned about the other students?

Hi Stephen 
I totally agree with you. I am taking his class on non dual because I find his teachings on that and his meditations speak to me. For my Dzogchecn studies, I did get transmission from  and study in the lineage of Mingyur Rinpoche. I am concerned about these other students because I wanted to protect the lineage. I got this answer from Tim Olmsted one of Mingyur Rinpoche's Senior teachers on this:
There are many texts that anyone can read about Dzogchen.  These days there are many  who think that their approach, whatever that may be, is the equivalent of Dzogchen.  But, pointing out is the entrance to the practice path of Dzogchen.
​​​​​​​
Do his instructions resonate with you?
For you, does he seem like someone with wisdom and understanding that you would like to learn from?

If the answer is yes, then why not try to drop the doubt for the course and get the most out of the experience. If, on the other hand, it's simply not resonating with you and you are really compelled to follow a lineage in the Dzogchen tradition then you should do that.
​​​​​​​
Stephen,

The couse starts tonight and while I am excited about the awareness and nondual stuff, it looks like he is going to try to teach some Dzogchen without rquiring the students to have pointing out instrutions. I found out one of the rrequired books for the class is "Actuality of Being: Dzogchen and Tantric Kyabgon, which is actually a pretty good dzogchen book. I even learned some stuff that I seemed to miss in muy lineage based Dzogchen course with Mingyur Rinpoche.
Sam Gentile, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 1344 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Micheal Taft is running amuck. Stepehen and other serious practioners of Dzogchen and Tibetan he actually said this:

In the traditional format you do all this work under a guru, who you essentially worship as the embodiment of enlightenment. The ngondro is a useful and helpful preliminary to engaging with a guru on a deep level like that. In a non-traditional format, however, the ngondro doesn’t make much sense, and can be skipped.

Its not Guru worship!
One of Mingyur Rinpoche's teachers replied:
​​​​​​​Of course, this is a free world. People can do, or not do, whatever they want. If a doctor prescribes medicine for a fatal disease, we’re free to take it or not. In the same way, if we aspire to attain the qualities of realization that our lineage mothers and fathers have, I would think that we would take their advice. Personally, all of my teachers have talked extensively about the power and profundity of ngondro as a method to remove the most subtle karmic stains that cover our essential nature. It wouldn’t make any sense to aspire to attain realization along the path, yet edit out some of the inconvenient methods that my teachers have suggested. I have no doubt that many have developed realization over the centuries without doing ngondro, but I’m not in that class (to say the least). Make sense?
Sam Gentile, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 1344 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
I just finished the first course/level of Dzogchen courses under Mingyur Rinpcoche in the Nyginga and Kagyu lineages of Talkuu Urygen Rinpoche. I am starting a new course Deepening Dzogchen in the same tradition and with some other teachers like Tsokyni Rinpoche. If you want to see my logs of this study, go to my log at RE: Sam's Practice Log 5 - Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org.
I get the sense that you resonate much more with a tradition anchored in a lineage and not so much the meta-modern approach where the rules or restrictions are minimal or absent. I think that's really helpful to know and to follow. I've heard good things about Tsokni Rinpoche so I'm glad you've connected with him and I really appreciate what I've read of Mingyur Rinpoche and his Tulku Urgyen of course. 

As far as Michael Taft's point about Guru yoga. He's coming from a Yoga Tantra background. I think you could defend his point about guru worship. I don't know exactly how it manifests in practice in Dzogchen. It is quite different than Yoga Tantra, but the roots are similar. The cultural context is important so when it comes to ngondro and guru yoga, the culture makes a difference in how these practices work on a practical level. Michael Taft is gearing his instructions to a Western audience and that will resonate with some more than the ngondro. I really appreciate the traditional preliminaries but I think it's also important to recognize that this won't resonate for all practitioners and it's important to offer some alternatives for access to the essence traditions. I also understand where you disagree with his particular point of view on the preliminaries. I think the preliminaries can come in different forms depending on context. Some form of preliminary is essential to get the most out of the essence traditions but perhaps it need not take the form of traditional preliminaries for all practitioners, especially for those coming from a different cultural context.
Sam Gentile, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Is Anyone here practicing Tibetan methods (Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Mahayan

Posts: 1344 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Stephen
I get the sense that you resonate much more with a tradition anchored in a lineage and not so much the meta-modern approach where the rules or restrictions are minimal or absent. I think that's really helpful to know and to follow. I've heard good things about Tsokni Rinpoche so I'm glad you've connected with him and I really appreciate what I've read of Mingyur Rinpoche and his Tulku Urgyen of course. 

Stephen I think you're right. For Dzogchen studies, it took many years to get in and now people are just having total access to the teachings. I resonate more with a lineage with Tibetan studies. But a big but is I totally resonate with the meta modern approach. Its all about Pragmatic Dharma and Daniel Ingram.

As far as Michael Taft's point about Guru yoga. He's coming from a Yoga Tantra background. I think you could defend his point about guru worship. I don't know exactly how it manifests in practice in Dzogchen. It is quite different than Yoga Tantra, but the roots are similar. The cultural context is important so when it comes to ngondro and guru yoga, the culture makes a difference in how these practices work on a practical level. Michael Taft is gearing his instructions to a Western audience and that will resonate with some more than the ngondro. I really appreciate the traditional preliminaries but I think it's also important to recognize that this won't resonate for all practitioners and it's important to offer some alternatives for access to the essence traditions. I also understand where you disagree with his particular point of view on the preliminaries. I think the preliminaries can come in different forms depending on context. Some form of preliminary is essential to get the most out of the essence traditions but perhaps it need not take the form of traditional preliminaries for all practitioners, especially for those coming from a different cultural context.

I have come to appreciate that viewpoint that ngodro will mot resonate with some people and in these modern times, things have to be adjusted. Thanks.

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