MCTB2: Stream Entry on low doses of concentration.

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Jim Smith, modified 2 Months ago.

MCTB2: Stream Entry on low doses of concentration.

Posts: 1089 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
In MCTB2 Daniel writes:
https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/33-review/
These days, as I meet people who may have attained stream entry and yet done it on relatively low doses of concentration, I often find it difficult to be sure what they have accomplished. If you find yourself having similar questions about your own practice, I strongly encourage you to go on a meditation retreat, get your momentary concentration strong, and then test out what you are capable of with that stronger level of concentration.

How do people attain stream entry on low doses of concentration? What practices do they use?

Does anyone know if there are any schools of Buddhism or teachers who either specialize in or recognize and teach practices involving low doses of concentration?


Thanks in advance.
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Dream Walker, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: MCTB2: Stream Entry on low doses of concentration.

Posts: 1396 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Jim Smith
In MCTB2 Daniel writes:
https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/33-review/
These days, as I meet people who MAY have attained stream entry and yet done it on relatively low doses of concentration, I often find it difficult to be sure what they have accomplished. If you find yourself having similar questions about your own practice, I strongly encourage you to go on a meditation retreat, get your momentary concentration strong, and then test out what you are capable of with that stronger level of concentration.

How do people attain stream entry on low doses of concentration? What practices do they use?

Does anyone know if there are any schools of Buddhism or teachers who either specialize in or recognize and teach practices involving low doses of concentration?


Thanks in advance.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Basiclly , To put words into Daniels mouth, It is bullshit.
Reread his stuff. Concentration does not usually get you Path, Insite usually does.
Having said that, there are many wonderful crazy strange outliers in the meditation experience, including me. I had whatever karma to get 1st path without much of anything. To get 2nd path I had to knucke down and do a lot of noting insite practise.
If you find anyone promising low doses of concentration to get 1st path, I would run the other way.
Just my opinion,
Good luck,
~D
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Zero, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: MCTB2: Stream Entry on low doses of concentration.

Posts: 68 Join Date: 2/21/18 Recent Posts
I think Jim meant low doses of concentration w/ doing insight practice. Like getting access concentration before doing noting. Does that make sense? 
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Kaloyan Stefanov, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: MCTB2: Stream Entry on low doses of concentration.

Posts: 74 Join Date: 2/18/21 Recent Posts
"Low" is of course a matter of definition.

I never really spent much time in e.g. deep formless jhanas and got 1st and subsequent paths incl. 4th. Of course I spent significant time on various insights practices, and access to jhanas 2-4 on subsequent paths was an important part of said insights practices for me - e.g. 3Cs Vipassana whilst in 3rd or 4th. I never spent much time on deliberately cultivating jhanas. Some people would probably say that qualifies as "low concentration".

I believe you can get 1st path with only Access Concentration and 1st jhana - I don't see a reason why not. You most likely can get subsequent paths on that + just the concentration that naturally comes from the "vipassana jhanas" as you are in e.g. DN and EQ. I.e. without deliberately trying to cultivate jhanas.

Can it definetely work like that for everyone? I have no clue. Please treat my opinion as one dude on an online forum said emoticon
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: MCTB2: Stream Entry on low doses of concentration.

Posts: 6060 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
The way I read that passage, I think it refers to concentration as a quality rather than as a type of practice. I suppose that it is possible to sort of bump into enough insight without much of that quality, if that's how one's life unfolds. You really just need to be totally present to one moment. Statistically, with more moments of good attention or awareness, chanses increase for one such moment to occur, and concentration helps with that, but one moment is enough.

I would say that vipassana jhanas involve good concentration. It seems like some people refer to all recognizable ñanas as vipassana jhanas, but that's not my experience. The vipassana jhanas have a very different flavour than the regular cycling. Ayya Khema went as far as to say that the vipassana jhanas are the highest jhanas. I don't know about that, but for me personally, stream entry was preceded by lots of vipassana jhanas happening on their own. That's how it was possible for me to be present enough. Fourth vipassana jhana made details of how the mind operates stand out with almost unbelievable clarity. It was such a grace. With that presentation, it was easy to be fully present.

It seems to me that repeat fruitions (from a previous path) require much less subjectively perceived clarity than new path moments do, but I really don't have more than anecdotal data to base that very tentative observation on. I have noticed that repeat fruitions can occur extremely suddenly right after some haziness. That is, unless I misdiagnose those moments. It makes sense, though, because there are no path moments for them.
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Zero, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: MCTB2: Stream Entry on low doses of concentration.

Posts: 68 Join Date: 2/21/18 Recent Posts
Reminds me of the "Just One Look" method:
https://www.justonelook.org/jolmethod.php
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: MCTB2: Stream Entry on low doses of concentration.

Posts: 2279 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
"You really just need to be totally present to one moment. Statistically, with more moments of good attention or awareness, chanses increase for one such moment to occur, and concentration helps with that, but one moment is enough.

I would say that vipassana jhanas involve good concentration."

Nicely put! 

Once mind is in high EQ Nana then there is no need for any special concentration as all is included. Now it's just to relax the last tidbits of aversion to "not much happening". 

Allowing mind to be "one-pointed" on the mind stream is very much producing strong concentration. 

issue is when folks try to sell "Jhana Proper" as described by the monks to be THE right way etc ... 

I say "why is all the toilet paper gone!" emoticon emoticon 

Best wishes and may all beings awaken and take themselves with a grain of salt! emoticon 
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Zero, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: MCTB2: Stream Entry on low doses of concentration.

Posts: 68 Join Date: 2/21/18 Recent Posts
We get it Papa, Mahasi worked really well for you and you have a grudge against jhanas being propped up. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: MCTB2: Stream Entry on low doses of concentration.

Posts: 2279 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Nope. emoticon Jhana and Shamatha are where my journey started 2009-2012. 

Jhana stuff still arises. 

Jhana ain't an issue. Ignorance is. Clinging is. Not looking at causality is 

Also an issue is saying that Khanika Samadhi is not good enough to lead all the way to cessation. It's more than good and mind gets gladness once it buys into the noted mind stream emoticon Once gladdened the mind is still, seeing all this flickering experience with ease etc .., This reminds me a lot of the Anapanasatti Sutta emoticon 

Low dose of concentration (Khanika Samadhi) is enough for Insight to ripen. 

You prefer Jhana. Fine. 
Some prefer Khanika Samadhi in Noting. Fine. 
However saying that it's impossible to get anywhere with insight on low doses of concentration is false. 

Go Jhana go! emoticon 

Its no problem
wanting to awaken to the God Realm
first. Human/Hungry Ghost/Hell/Animal/Azura Realms are waiting for their turn emoticon emoticon 

As Kenneth Folk say "no panic! we only need to awaken to Everything" 

Best of wishes mate! No hard feelings? emoticon 
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Zero, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: MCTB2: Stream Entry on low doses of concentration.

Posts: 68 Join Date: 2/21/18 Recent Posts
Thanks Papa, quite inspiring!

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