Desperate and scared - please help

Desperate and scared - please help Robin Woods 2/16/22 7:54 AM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Chris M 2/16/22 8:13 AM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Robin Woods 2/16/22 8:22 AM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Chris M 2/16/22 8:36 AM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Adi Vader 2/16/22 10:21 AM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help J W 2/16/22 11:58 AM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Robin Woods 2/16/22 12:48 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Eudoxos . 2/19/22 2:34 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Griffin 2/16/22 12:29 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Robin Woods 2/16/22 12:57 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help J W 2/16/22 3:16 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Ni Nurta 2/16/22 1:24 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Robin Woods 2/16/22 2:15 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Chris M 2/17/22 6:37 AM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Ni Nurta 2/17/22 2:39 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Robin Woods 2/17/22 3:41 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Ni Nurta 2/17/22 5:20 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Papa Che Dusko 2/18/22 2:23 AM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Chris M 2/17/22 3:45 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Robin Woods 2/17/22 3:55 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Chris M 2/17/22 4:17 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Robin Woods 2/22/22 11:47 AM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help George S 2/22/22 12:18 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Dan Latner 2/22/22 10:45 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Robin Woods 2/22/22 12:28 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Eric Abrahamsen 2/22/22 2:41 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Robin Woods 2/23/22 11:36 AM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Martin 2/22/22 12:59 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Papa Che Dusko 2/22/22 2:10 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Robin Woods 2/22/22 3:30 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Papa Che Dusko 2/22/22 3:32 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Chris M 2/22/22 3:39 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Robin Woods 2/22/22 3:54 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Eudoxos . 2/23/22 2:06 AM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help George S 2/23/22 5:36 AM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Robin Woods 2/24/22 3:21 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help George S 2/24/22 6:43 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Ni Nurta 2/23/22 11:02 AM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Robin Woods 2/23/22 12:02 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Ni Nurta 2/24/22 3:12 PM
RE: Desperate and scared - please help Dolf An 3/20/22 2:55 PM
Robin Woods, modified 9 Months ago at 2/16/22 7:54 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 2/16/22 7:54 AM

Desperate and scared - please help

Posts: 189 Join Date: 5/28/12 Recent Posts
I have a long-term history of depression and anxiety (possibly bipolar disorder). 
I was introduced to meditation through an MBSR course in England, but was already fascinated by meditation because of a spiritual/‘manic?’ episode at 20. 
I really took to mindfulness and it gave me huge relief from my racing negative thoughts. My body then exploded into thousands of points of light and I ended up here. 
Stream entry was amazing and a huge sense of freedom and mental stilling. As was 2nd path and a few more cycles. I became a much less negative person and started a new relationship. 
Then COVID hit and I completely lost the plot because of the fear of being locked in a room for 10 days. I also think because my perception was non-dual at this point I was doubly scared because every surface which was ‘me’ could be infected. 
I’ve now been signed-off work for months and no medication is really helping. I’m severely depressed and anxious, and being really freaked out now because I don’t know where I end and the world begins. I’m also slightly paranoid and it feels like the people on the street who I walk past, who I’m slightly wary of, are inside ‘me’ . 
This sounds insane- but I almost can’t imagine going for a ‘mood-boosting’ run now because I can’t imagine running through ‘myself’. 
I also don’t understand the agencylessness here - do I have no control over whether to continue to suffer. 
I think I was in reobservation on the bus yesterday and had a huge panic attack because my identity kept shifting around the bus depending on what I was looking at in a really unnerving way. 
Is there anything I can do? Am I missing something here? 
Meditation was always my only refuge from negative intrusive thoughts so I’m really scared now. 
Are jhanas safe? 
I’m on the point of having ECT now….
And blaming myself for getting involved in meditation 
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Chris M, modified 9 Months ago at 2/16/22 8:13 AM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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I suggest you see a therapist/psychiatrist. Immediately.
Robin Woods, modified 9 Months ago at 2/16/22 8:22 AM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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I saw a psychiatrist yesterday and they don't really understand about meditation; nor does my therapist 
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Chris M, modified 9 Months ago at 2/16/22 8:36 AM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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The point isn't to have a doctor help you with meditation. It's to make sure you're not in serious trouble mentally or physically. When someone is panicked and afraid that they're losing their grip, or otherwise confused, concerned, looking for help, seeing a doctor is the first step. The meditation help can come later if it's needed.
Adi Vader, modified 9 Months ago at 2/16/22 10:21 AM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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Hi Robin

Reading your post and comments I get the impression that you are in touch with a psychiatrist and therapist and are receiving medical advice and intervention in the form of medication - which aren't helping you currently ... hopefully this will change. I hope my impression that you are under the care of a therapist/doctor is correct. The kind of acute anxiety, panic you are describing are certainly good reason for meeting and continuing to meet medical professionals atleast until this situation passes and becomes more manageable.

You mention Stream Entry and Sakrdagami attainments. You also mention cycling through various paths. This suggests to me that your practice is based on khannika samadhi or momentary concentration either in the Mahasi Sayadaw system of practice or something derived from it. While it is a powerful system of practice it is ideally supplemented with a larger toolkit. One of those tools that is a must have is basically the ability to trigger and abide in the relaxation response. The idea is to establish mindfulness using an anchor like the breath or a simple mentally created anchor like a mantra and then slowly relax the body and the mind centered around that anchor while being alert and awake to fully experience the relaxation. This is the deliberate cultivation of mindfulness, tranquility and energy or virya. 3 of the 7 factors of awakening.

To very regularly induce physical and mental relaxation in conjunction with following the course of action prescribed by your doctor/therapist will help teach the mind that right now is 'safe'. The mind becomes very sensitive due to persistent mental training and investigation and experiences fear due to this hightened training and sensitivity. This may or may not have anything whatsoever to do with the Dukkha Nanas. Currently desensitize the mind, do not investigate anything. Anicca, dukkha, anatta can wait. Teach the mind that right now is safe. Relax the body, relax the mind. Again and again and again.

Looking at what you have written - you mention:

1. Fear of being locked in a room
2. Surfaces being 'you'
3. Not knowing where you end and the world begins
4. Slight paranoia that other people are also 'you' or inside you

Over and above this your writing gives me the impression that though in some way you are caught in these 'views' yet you can see the ridiculousness of these views. I think the mind is experiencing a lot of fear and is trying to make meaning of this fear, thats what the mind does, it is a meaning making machine. But all of these views are most probably not helping you. The hyperactive proliferating mind is driven by fear. Learn to merely trigger the relaxation response and stay in it. Stop doing any investigation. Let all the adrenaline and cortisol be drained out of the body, let all the fear be drained out of the mind. It will hopefully give you a lot of relief. And keep seeing your doctor/therapist.

Good luck.
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J W, modified 9 Months ago at 2/16/22 11:58 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 2/16/22 11:58 AM

RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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I am just adding on to and agreeing with everything that Adi is saying here - have you tried any sort of breathing exercises Robin?  Either through a therapist or on your own.  YMMV of course, but I've found sometimes breath work and/or other concentration/relaxation type exercises can be helpful when dealing with my own stressful or fearful mind states.
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Griffin, modified 9 Months ago at 2/16/22 12:29 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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If I was having some of the symptoms you mention, I would consult a mental health proffesional with experience in treating depersonalization-derealization disorder and inquire about whether I may have it.
Robin Woods, modified 9 Months ago at 2/16/22 12:48 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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Thanks for such a kind and considerate response. I can usually enter Jhana by focussing on the sound of a ticking clock - is this the same as the relaxation response ? 
Robin Woods, modified 9 Months ago at 2/16/22 12:57 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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Yeah - I am experiencing some of that. But for a fully 'enlightened' person - the world appears to be in 'them' right? They're 'are' what they are observing? 
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago at 2/16/22 1:24 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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As human beings (this fleshy animal thingy your camera viewport is attached to) we are complex devices with physical (body), mental (mind) and spiritual (woo woo) components that need to be all in working order for life to feel and be all nice and dandy

physical advice - eat better. Also store enough food for month so that you do not need to freak out on thought of being locked for 10 days...
mental advice - do not listen to big-dharma, they all lie to you for all sorts of nefarious reasons (actually most people are just idiots and are nowhere near anything one could call enlightenment). Best forgot any nonsense you have heard or read. And for the love of God, infection? What infection? Are you watching TV or something?
spiritual advice - do not keep this 'stuff' around you, this is not energy but waste products. It needs to be disposed of. Do it the human way: dump it to some remote location. I mean all of it. Its not energy because you cannot use it when all you have is the same stuff and you produce it all the time. There is literally no point in storing it. Ever.

Also drop any ideas of relief
You are not supposed to be relieved but keep your own internal homeostasis, this is your only job in all of this. If you feel relief when doing anything you are doing it wrong. When doing good job at keeping homeostasis you do not feel anything you would call as relief. If you do not understand this then it is no wonder you are depressed. And the so called big-dharma doesn't understand it either and yes, they are all depressed as fu... like you are. Less visible side-effects though. You have really screwed this up. Nothing that cannot be easily fixed. Do not however expect any easy fixes because you have no idea how to apply any fixes. Do not expect mindless 'investigating' will give you some magical relief and everything will be fine. Either you know what you are doing or you do not. Despite people not knowing anything they actually intuitively know how to do this thing called 'living', at least for the most part. When they start thinking they know better because certain things make them feel they can experience more and want more, they do not realize what trap this is and end up depressed, dreaming of relief. It is relief that drove them to this, relief from pain they caused themselves by experiencing relief. It always starts innocent, just doing wrong thing they felt they should not do until they forgot how it feels to be in homeostasis and all they thought about was relief. Self reinforcing cycle of suffering.

Anyways, this all probably sounds like bag of rubbish. You did however request help desperately so...

BTW. Rather than therapy and 'professionals' my suggestion would be observe people who are actually not depressed. Ask them in whichever way you think you would get best response "how do you do it?" and they will 'tell' you, even in silence. Not all but some people know. Normal people. People you do not consider enlightened. They will help you.
Robin Woods, modified 9 Months ago at 2/16/22 2:15 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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You have really screwed this up
Wow thanks - I really needed this tonight! 
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J W, modified 9 Months ago at 2/16/22 3:16 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 2/16/22 3:13 PM

RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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Robin,
Would you say that what you are experiencing matches at all, the 6th Jhana as it is described in MCTB?

"If the meditator wishes to go further into the formless realms, then they should continue to cultivate attention to boundless space and begin to notice that they are conscious of all of it, and thus space is filled with consciousness. As some point the mind will abandon boundless space and shift to perceiving boundless consciousness, the sixth jhana. This can feel outrageously unitive, as consciousness seems to fill the whole universe. Space becomes “luminous,” and this can be confused with descriptions of the fundamental luminosity of awareness and with non-duality, though this is definitely not the attainment of the understanding of those. Again, equanimity prevails. This state has a sense of presence to it that boundless space doesn't. It is also a great staging ground for exploration of the “psychic powers.” 


To give you specific advice here would be something way beyond what I feel that I'm qualified to do, but it could be possible that you are somehow stuck in a non-dual formless jhanic state (although one with a predominantly negative aspect), and if that could be verified, then there may be people here who could help you.
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Chris M, modified 9 Months ago at 2/17/22 6:37 AM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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You are not supposed to be relieved but keep your own internal homeostasis, this is your only job in all of this. If you feel relief when doing anything you are doing it wrong. When doing good job at keeping homeostasis you do not feel anything you would call as relief. If you do not understand this then it is no wonder you are depressed. And the so called big-dharma doesn't understand it either and yes, they are all depressed as fu... like you are. Less visible side-effects though. You have really screwed this up. Nothing that cannot be easily fixed. Do not however expect any easy fixes because you have no idea how to apply any fixes. Do not expect mindless 'investigating' will give you some magical relief and everything will be fine. Either you know what you are doing or you do not. Despite people not knowing anything they actually intuitively know how to do this thing called 'living', at least for the most part. When they start thinking they know better because certain things make them feel they can experience more and want more, they do not realize what trap this is and end up depressed, dreaming of relief. It is relief that drove them to this, relief from pain they caused themselves by experiencing relief. It always starts innocent, just doing wrong thing they felt they should not do until they forgot how it feels to be in homeostasis and all they thought about was relief. Self reinforcing cycle of suffering.


"Don't worry, be happy.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago at 2/17/22 2:39 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 2/17/22 2:39 PM

RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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Right?
I sometimes wonder about all the drama everyone experience. It would be so easy to experience peace and serenity all the time and yet they choose not to... they have to really love the drama!!!
No other explanation
Robin Woods, modified 9 Months ago at 2/17/22 3:41 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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You are aware that some people suffer from heritable mental illnesses and then experience early life trauma right? 

​​​​​​​are people with catatonic depression just doing it for a laugh? 

are all the people now knocking on Cheetah House's door just frustrated thespians?! 
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Chris M, modified 9 Months ago at 2/17/22 3:45 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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You are aware that some people suffer from heritable mental illnesses and then experience early life trauma right? 

Yes, Robin, absolutely aware. It's what drives me to tell folks who are having issues (and come here to post about them) to seek professional help. Do not pass go, do not collect $2,000. Just go get the help you need from people with the relevant training and experience.

No other explanation

There really are other possible explanations. Robin has mentioned one. I think it best we acknowledge that people don't always choose to be unhappy, or ill, and their unhappiness or illness may not stem from getting duped by a specific practice or otherwise hooked on their suffering. This doesn't violate any precepts and it certainly acknowledges the pain folks might be going through. It can be debilitating. 
Robin Woods, modified 9 Months ago at 2/17/22 3:55 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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Yeah - fair enough. I know where you're coming from. 

it's just that I've now pretty much reached the end of the line in terms of medication. 

I guess I hoped someone might clarify the relationship between partially-enlightened experience and depersonalisation/derealisation for me cos I'm still quite confused by it and suggest jhana practice or something. 

I just wish I could climb back safely inside my skin now and look at a separate world - but I can't 

​​​​​​​haha
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Chris M, modified 9 Months ago at 2/17/22 4:17 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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I guess I hoped someone might clarify the relationship between partially-enlightened experience and depersonalisation/derealisation for me cos I'm still quite confused by it and suggest jhana practice or something. 

​​​​​​​Robin, there are things that can happen during one's practice that are wild, exotic, thrilling, frightening, scary, and generally destabilizing. They very, very rarely reach the nature and level, combined, of experience that you say you're having. Being destabilized for an extended period is not normal. Folks here tend to suggest more meditation. That's probably ok IF you're going through a short period of being destabilized. If you are having an extended period with these problems then no amount of meditation is appropriate, in my opinion. Your practice, or some other thing, has likely triggered a pre-existing issue - which is pretty much what you've described.

So this is not a place where you'll find the kind of help I suspect you need. You will get sympathy, and we can probably relate more to what you're going through than most other people, but we don't have the right tools to help you. 
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago at 2/17/22 5:20 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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I like to throw stupid jokes because there is some insight encoded in them
If you do not find it at all funny then please ignore them
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago at 2/18/22 2:23 AM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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Like the stupid toilet paper jokes? emoticon As long you don't use the toilet paper then no need to stock it! emoticon emoticon 

p.s. look for hidden secret insights in my reply 
Eudoxos , modified 9 Months ago at 2/19/22 2:34 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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(Adi, correct me if this is off) Look at the quality of the concentration, my mind tends to get tense when concentrating with narrow focus, as would be the ticking clock. I appreciate Michael Taft stressing that samatha means "abiding", "stabilization"; he had a useful exercise of noticing spaciousness, peace and stillness *anywhere* in the mind (even if the rest is not peaceful at all), without any laser-beaming focus, resting there; I was imagining spaciousness behind my back, for example, where I did not feel anything at all.
Robin Woods, modified 9 Months ago at 2/22/22 11:47 AM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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I'm sorry to post again and I fully understand that some members don't want to engage with me. 

but it's got to the stage now where I'm freaking out about the sensation of my foot on the floor. What part of this sensation is 'me' and what part is 'the universe'? I understand the ultimate answer is that it's just a non-dual sensation without a 'me' behind it. But I'm struggling to reconcile this with my current level of misguided 'awakening'. I understand people from Cheetah House have also struggled with this. 

is there any way I can reconceptualise it? 

​​​​​​​im sorry to post again but I don't know where else to ask
George S, modified 9 Months ago at 2/22/22 12:18 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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You are a part of the universe. Try to do something grounding.
Robin Woods, modified 9 Months ago at 2/22/22 12:28 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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Thanks! What sort of thing? 
Martin, modified 9 Months ago at 2/22/22 12:59 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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Excercise is grounding, particularly running, swimming, and other vigorous cardio workouts. Going for a walk, particularly in nature or a park, might not be quite as beneficial but is probably a close second. 

As for conceptual framing: everyone and everything is in the same boat, so we can look around and see how they are handling it. You don't see, for example, cats and dogs freaking out because there is no clear boundary between them and the rest of the universe. Being part of the universe is a totally ordinary thing. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago at 2/22/22 2:10 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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Do you have a hobby? 
Eric Abrahamsen, modified 9 Months ago at 2/22/22 2:41 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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I'm not in a position give anyone advice, but I think you've already gotten good pointers here from Adi, and most recently from Martin (and, obviously, from Chris M: if professional help doesn't seem to be working for you, you probably need new professionals). I would emphasize nature -- no one was ever made to feel paranoid by a tree. Get yourself into your body, and get your body out among trees and water, if possible. Let your body find its own relationship with that environment, and give everything else a rest for a bit.

I hope you can find a respite from fear!
Robin Woods, modified 9 Months ago at 2/22/22 3:30 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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Used to be meditation! Haha. I felt so amazing after second path I thought I was finally gonna crack my anxiety and depression. F knows where I went wrong. 

maybe I should try making some music again...
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago at 2/22/22 3:32 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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What instruments do you play? 
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Chris M, modified 9 Months ago at 2/22/22 3:39 PM
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Robin Woods --
​​​​​​​
I felt so amazing after second path I thought I was finally gonna crack my anxiety and depression. F knows where I went wrong. 

It's a bad idea to think gaining second path is going to fix pre-existing conditions like anxiety and depression. To be honest, Robin, my guess is that you shouldn't be meditating at all right now. Maybe not for a while. You should be getting more medical/psychiatric help and doing the most normal, comforting, and grounding activities you can - and you have a bunch of useful suggestions from the others here.
Robin Woods, modified 9 Months ago at 2/22/22 3:54 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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Thanks Chris. I always remember a thread on the old KFD site where quite a few people claimed to have done it so was naively hopeful...
Dan Latner, modified 9 Months ago at 2/22/22 10:45 PM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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Sorry you're having a tough time. I find Polyvagal exercises and the trauma-informed world to be very helpful when I'm spinning. So many great exercises and lessons. 

A Vagus nerve massage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnV3Q2xIb1U&t=5s

I second the grounding and nature suggestions - reel that kite in! I also share Adi and Chris' concerns.  It can be hard to tell through text chat, but some of what you're describing seems like you might wanna see a therapist.  

"is there any way I can reconceptualise it?"

Not sure if this is what you mean, but sometimes when I'm overheating on theory and maps, listening to super calming teachers like Jack Kornfield, Pema Chodron, or Tich Nhat Han can help me look at the thing in a different light. Music theory is amazing, but sometimes I just wanna hear a song.

I'm not advanced by any means and also showed up in a misguided fashion, so please keep that in mind. Hope you're doing ok emoticon

This video always makes me laugh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdyC1BrQd6g





Eudoxos , modified 9 Months ago at 2/23/22 2:06 AM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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I keep as a useful reminder against bypassing that Kenneth himself started taking antidepressants *after* the third path (source: Contemplative Fitness).
George S, modified 9 Months ago at 2/23/22 5:36 AM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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I experienced some terrifying depersonalization episodes during third path. I think it happened because I had repressed emotional traumas and I wasn't connected enough with what was going on in my body. The insights of first/second path seemed to accelerate the process of opening up my psyche (breaking down defence mechanisms) and releasing the old trauma. After that things started to get better, it was painful but it was more about the physical process of releasing old emotions rather rather than psychological confusion. I think you can get through this Robin with the right support. In person is best but there are also lots of good books and videos about how trauma develops and is stored in the body, and how it can be safely released over time. Peter Levine is a good place to start.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago at 2/23/22 11:02 AM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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When I start wondering if my feet is part of me or part of the universe I just wash it with a soap and water and then it is only part of me.

Hope it helps emoticon

I felt so amazing after second path I thought I was finally gonna crack my anxiety and depression. F knows where I went wrong.

Relief based thinking didn't work for zillionth time... then you must continue it. It will definitely work if you try it zillion more times. It has to, because if not release from self inflicted suffering what else is there to enjoy?
Robin Woods, modified 9 Months ago at 2/23/22 11:36 AM
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RE: Desperate and scared - please help

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No one was ever made to feel paranoid by a tree? Haha

but that's almost my precise problem- when I look at a tree my brain keeps rapidly oscillating between seeing it as inside 'me' and outside 'me' and it's really disconcerting. Surely this might be a middle path problem as you're halfway between seeing things one way and 'the other way' ?
Robin Woods, modified 9 Months ago at 2/23/22 12:02 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 2/23/22 11:45 AM

RE: Desperate and scared - please help

Posts: 189 Join Date: 5/28/12 Recent Posts
I'm afraid I'm not always sure where you're coming from. Have you ever meditated? 

​​​​​​​what do you think The Good Life consists of? 
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago at 2/24/22 3:12 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 2/24/22 3:12 PM

RE: Desperate and scared - please help

Posts: 938 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Good life consist of being that is well fed.
Imho your issue, also what you mentioned about your genes, is not mental illness but different requirements for food. You can have wonderful qualities in using something but if these qualities require more of this something you do not provide yourself with your food then you will pay the price for being different. Not to your fault. As I see billions of people suffer starvation in one form or the other, also in 1st world countries where they are eating too much. They eat so much because there is so little in their food.
I won't spell what you need. This is not shamanic forum.

It is similar with meditator.
What meditation people really need is not what they do.
Again, this is forum about meditation understood as practice, not living it.
No one would force themselves to do something against what they feel they should do but they can force themselves. It works, it does something. Be prepared to experience all the negativity that comes with wrong thinking, wrong intent. Your intent is to get better. This is wrong intent. It skipped steps. Four Noble Truths in reality are one truth. Realizing you suffer is the same as realizing source, its cessation and path to its cessation. You think you know you suffer but you do not know anything. I call this relief because of all words it first the best for the issue at hand. Haven't you done things for relief which worked for moment to distract you and then you felt the same suffering like nothing changed.

Again, you cannot experience relief if you fix issue because mind which arose because of the existence of the issue would be dissolved. If you remember (and I see this is very alive memory...) some relief from your practices they obviously didn't fix things you thought it fixed. You would not feel anything, you would maybe wonder what was it that bothered you and finding nothing you would move on with your life.

Have I meditated? Enough
Where I come from? Promise to explain things when I know and someone does not know.
Robin Woods, modified 9 Months ago at 2/24/22 3:21 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 2/24/22 3:21 PM

RE: Desperate and scared - please help

Posts: 189 Join Date: 5/28/12 Recent Posts
Thanks - what kind of depersonalisation experiences? 
George S, modified 9 Months ago at 2/24/22 6:43 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 2/24/22 6:43 PM

RE: Desperate and scared - please help

Posts: 2596 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Dolf An, modified 8 Months ago at 3/20/22 2:55 PM
Created 8 Months ago at 3/20/22 2:55 PM

RE: Desperate and scared - please help

Posts: 6 Join Date: 3/20/22 Recent Posts
Hopefully the problem has gone already. Since original post (OP) reminds me of some of my own experiences, I'll reply (as my first post here). I will skip the whole thing about meditation and technicalities of enlightenment-or-not, since the problem raised here in my view is not really about meditation or spiritual practice, but a mental health one. As many have pointed.

So, for me similar experiences and accompanying fear had most of all basis in my very early shame of being. Later childhood trauma had build more stuff on that basic insecurity. The stuff also made it more difficult to see clearly what was the emotional basis of the complex experiencing.

Becoming more sensitive (through bodywork, spiritual practices, and life crises) in adult life collapsed the defenses which resulted in the surfacing of all kinds of shame and fear about being (a human) as such.

As in OP, It manifested in difficulties in sensing and understanding boundaries of myself and others. That was influenced also by some sort of (limited yet not necessarily wrong) insight in the impermanence of boundaries and the reality of boundless attention.

Solution for me was a combination of things that some have suggested in responses to OP. A combination of introspection in the emotional basis of the unnerving experiences, of learning to relax and to ground oneself in the body, and of talking about the difficulties with friends and other close people including mental health professionals. I found a good therapist, who could help me. It's not always easy to find one.

This was for me the way to learn how to manage at least little better my "homeostasis" as Ni Nurta here emphasizes. He just does not seem to know the realities and effects of trauma, if I understand what he writes. He may be right that as such there is no relief (as it is just discharge which implies a [re]charge).

Meditation was not a part of the solution for my situation. Also medication, psychedelics or any other substance were not.

But that's just an experience of a past crisis, which OP reminded me of. Sorry for crappy English.

Be well.

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