On Realizing An Actual Freedom

On Realizing An Actual Freedom Tommy M 10/31/11 6:41 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Liam O'Sullivan 10/31/11 7:10 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Tommy M 10/31/11 8:10 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom josh r s 10/31/11 7:59 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Tommy M 10/31/11 8:42 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom josh r s 10/31/11 9:26 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Tommy M 10/31/11 4:34 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom End in Sight 10/31/11 7:51 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom End in Sight 10/31/11 8:40 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Tommy M 10/31/11 8:46 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 10/31/11 10:37 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Bruno Loff 10/31/11 10:27 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Nikolai . 10/31/11 11:07 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Bruno Loff 10/31/11 11:09 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom End in Sight 10/31/11 11:15 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Bruno Loff 10/31/11 3:07 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Adam Bieber 10/31/11 3:11 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Nikolai . 10/31/11 3:25 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Nikolai . 10/31/11 11:44 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom End in Sight 10/31/11 11:31 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Nikolai . 10/31/11 11:38 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom James Yen 10/31/11 6:43 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Tommy M 10/31/11 4:59 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Tommy M 10/31/11 5:29 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom End in Sight 10/31/11 10:53 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom End in Sight 10/31/11 10:53 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 11/1/11 2:16 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Tommy M 11/1/11 3:38 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 11/4/11 5:52 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Mahaparinirvana Sutra 11/29/11 5:35 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom josh r s 11/29/11 5:49 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Daniel M. Ingram 11/29/11 11:09 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom End in Sight 10/31/11 11:47 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Nikolai . 10/31/11 11:51 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom End in Sight 10/31/11 11:55 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Nikolai . 10/31/11 12:09 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Tommy M 10/31/11 5:59 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom John Freeman 10/31/11 6:43 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Tommy M 10/31/11 7:32 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Andrew . 10/31/11 8:55 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom John Freeman 11/1/11 5:39 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Tommy M 11/1/11 6:13 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 11/1/11 7:26 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Pål S. 11/1/11 5:25 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Tommy M 10/31/11 5:23 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom End in Sight 10/31/11 6:08 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Brian Eleven 10/31/11 5:49 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom (D Z) Dhru Val 10/31/11 10:18 PM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Jon T 11/1/11 1:48 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Tommy M 11/1/11 6:07 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Felipe C. 11/2/11 12:18 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Shashank Dixit 11/4/11 1:50 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom )( piscivorous 11/4/11 8:03 AM
RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 11/29/11 2:53 PM
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 6:41 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 6:41 AM

On Realizing An Actual Freedom

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
On Saturday the 29th of October 2011 at approximately 3pm, I became actually free[1].

The last few days have been wonderfully strange; it's like being born into a new world but without someone having to wipe your arse and change your nappy. emoticon

I deliberately left it a few days before 'coming out' but I'm confident now that the shift which occurred on Saturday afternoon isn't going anywhere. (Mainly because there's nowhere for it to go!) I've been trying to generate affect but there's no response whatsoever, there are residual affective overlays happening automatically in certain situations but the best analogy I can think of has been like a wave lapping onto the shore but not coming up far enough to get my feet wet.

Everything has the wonderful, fascinating directness to it that you get in PCE but now I see what people who've gotten here before me were talking about when they say that it's devoid of that "wow factor". There's a freshness to every moment which is incredible, everything is just continually new and it's possible to spend hours doing absolutely nothing 'cause there's no feeling of having to do anything.

To be more critical of this current experience, and by this I mean a careful analysis rather than finding faults, there is still the weird "shadow being" stuff arising and apperception is not experienced 100% of the time, although it is entirely possible to get back to the same stable clarity of the PCE by going through the arupa jhanas and out from the 8th (this was suggested by Nick yesterday and proved to be very effective in "clearing the boards" of residual being). The "shadow being" stuff is like the ghost of an affective feeling - for example, one of my cats knocked down a load of cups and plates I had sitting at the sink this morning, there was no internal activity, no feeling of irritation or anger, yet my face automatically went into a grimace and a strange, diffuse sense of what used to be irritation appeared but didn't actually do anything. It's hard to explain accurately without knowing what it's like, I thought I understood it pre-shift but I see now that I was wrong and how phrases like this could lead to confusion. Other than that, everything is just fine and it's a pleasure to walk around experiencing what this body experiences untainted by affect.

If this changes or the baseline drops to what it was before, you can be sure I'll update this as I'm not keen on publicly proclaiming attainments, particularly not without at least a few months of experimentation and testing, but this change is so clean and clear-cut from what's gone before that it makes me laugh to think of it going anywhere. A thought occurred about making this public so that others will be able to see that this is possible, sensible, very real and it reveals why it's so incredibly silly to argue against it on the basis of normal human expectations, the very expectations most of us saw shatter upon stream-entry. I too stood against this but can confirm that, if you drop all the bullshit politics about people involved in the AFT or whatever other belief-based knots people like to self-righteously tie themselves up in, this is genuinely a worthwhile goal to work towards and the arguments against it hold no water once you're here.

This is peace. This is now.

[1] I'll stick to using the term "actually free" for the sake of convenience.
Liam O'Sullivan, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 7:10 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 7:10 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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I'm glad you've found what you've been looking for recently, Tommy. Your description of your experience is intriguing, too.

Where do you think it is possible to go from here?
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josh r s, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 7:59 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 7:40 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

Posts: 337 Join Date: 9/16/11 Recent Posts
awesome tommy, inspiring, always good to see another person got it. such positive energy with the DhO now, it used to be tarin and trent vs. the world but now you can't turn around without seeing another AF person. my question is this: what practices did you use, which ones do you think were the most effective, which were you using leading up to and actually getting to AF?

edit: nvm, erased last question EiS answered it
End in Sight, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 7:51 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 7:51 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Woot!

Do you have access to the 9th jhana? If so, you may find it useful for eliminating shadow being.
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 8:10 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 8:10 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
Cheers Liam, I'll make it clear that I may be proved wrong at any time here or that the situation may change and I'll find something I missed along the way so remain skeptical of anything I say right now... emoticon

Where do you think it is possible to go from here?

There is still this shadow being stuff to deal with but, as EiS said above, there's ways to deal with this through the jhanas. Also, apperception doesn't happen all the time yet, although I'd say a 90/10 split would be a reasonable approximation right now, so that indicates more to be done before it's all finished up.

Developmentally, I don't know what is possible but it's going to be exciting and fun to find out! Two years ago, I thought that enlightenment was something people like us couldn't attain and look where we're at now; an open discussion on the practical techniques which make it possible and lots of people testing, verifying and replicating the results!
End in Sight, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 8:40 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 8:40 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Tommy M:
Everything has the wonderful, fascinating directness to it that you get in PCE but now I see what people who've gotten here before me were talking about when they say that it's devoid of that "wow factor". There's a freshness to every moment which is incredible, everything is just continually new and it's possible to spend hours doing absolutely nothing 'cause there's no feeling of having to do anything.


By the way, you may find that, with the elimination of shadow stuff, there is a different kind of "wow factor". (I find this hard to describe, so, figuratively, imagine "mystical wow" or "actual wow" vs. "agitated wow")

I'm sure you'll let us know how this plays out for you.
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 8:42 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 8:42 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
my question is this: what practices did you use, which ones do you think were the most effective, which were you using leading up to and actually getting to AF?

If indeed this genuinely is AF! I'll remain happily skeptical until more time has elapsed and I can say with a degree of certainty, but for the moment I thoroughly recommend simply paying attention, a fascinated and curious attention, to the sense doors as much as possible. If you find you can't be attentive to the senses, find out why not and deconstruct the belief which supports this obstruction before returning to the senses again and again.

Walk around innocently observing everything, realizing that you don't actually know what anything is and naively appreciating the simple joy of sensate reality. The whole "fake it till you make it" thing makes sense more now, you aim towards experiencing the world in way which most closely imitates actuality and it will gradually reveal itself to the senses naturally. "You" need to realize that there is nothing "you" can do to make this happen, "you" don't really exist in actuality so trying to get a PCE or AF is counter-productive.

If you have access to the arupa jhanas then definitely make use of the techniques on actualizing the affective aspects. Clearly seeing how affect arises makes it much easier to see how it can be ended, look at how pleasant/unpleasant/neutral (having the potential to manifest as pleasant/unpleasant) feelings arise and disrupt the clean perceptual signal as an object passes through the sense door.

The most important techniques I've used so far were HAIETMOBA and the techniques on The Hamilton Project and Nick's own Down The Rabbit Hole blog, both of those are saturated with practical tips. Also, I've bookmarked a load of really good AF related links from this site which I can post if you want? It's mainly stuff by Tarin, Trent, Stef and Daniel which you'll no doubt already have read, but it's all worth re-reading regardless as there's stuff there for everyone.

It's absolutely possible but "you" need to know that "you" are surplus to requirements for this body to optimally experience life.

Again, as I've said repeatedly, I could be totally wrong and may have overestimated this but I'll happily come back and update the thread if this turns out to be the case. There's no other way to learn, I suppose.... emoticon
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 8:46 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 8:46 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
By the way, you may find that, with the elimination of shadow stuff, there is a different kind of "wow factor". (I find this hard to describe, so, figuratively, imagine "mystical wow" or "actual wow" vs. "agitated wow")

Nick asked me to try going through the arupa jhanas and into 9th yesterday which led straight back into full-blown PCE territory but I get what you mean about an "actual wow" when this happens. It was like "Wow, I thought it was perfect already but there's a whole 'nutha level of perfection there too!" I agree though that it's hard to describe and my experience of it is minimal so far although I'll definitely keep you updated.
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josh r s, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 9:26 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 9:26 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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The whole "fake it till you make it" thing makes sense more now, you aim towards experiencing the world in way which most closely imitates actuality and it will gradually reveal itself to the senses naturally. "You" need to realize that there is nothing "you" can do to make this happen, "you" don't really exist in actuality so trying to get a PCE or AF is counter-productive.


i've started just thinking of terms of getting EE and VF, which for me translates into paying to the senses in and of themselves and letting whatever happens as a result happen.

Also, I've bookmarked a load of really good AF related links from this site which I can post if you want? It's mainly stuff by Tarin, Trent, Stef and Daniel which you'll no doubt already have read, but it's all worth re-reading regardless as there's stuff there for everyone.


sure, if you wouldn't mind ;)
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 10:37 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 10:09 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Grats! Sounds like good stuff. My own way of experiencing life is changing dramatically, it seems, no shift I'd call AF or 'AF with shadow-being' yet but good stuff is happening.
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Bruno Loff, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 10:27 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 10:24 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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I'd personally prefer that people wouldn't call it AF until they get rid of their "shadow being" completely.

Why the insistence on giving it a name until you are absolutely certain? My opinion: you're doing others a disservice. I find it confusing that you claim to be actually free but still grimace at your cat and feel hazy irritation or whatever. I find it confusing Nick claims to be actually free but is still getting weekly insights on the bus.

Please: call it virtual freedom if you want to call it something. When it is all perfect 100% of the time, and "being" is 100% gone, then call it AF.

Oh, and congrats on whatever shift you are currently enjoying emoticon
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Nikolai , modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 11:07 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 10:46 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Bruno Loff:
I'd personally prefer that people wouldn't call it AF until they get rid of their "shadow being" completely.

Why the insistence on giving it a name until you are absolutely certain? My opinion: you're doing others a disservice. I find it confusing that you claim to be actually free but still grimace at your cat and feel hazy irritation or whatever. I find it confusing Nick claims to be actually free but is still getting weekly insights on the bus.

Please: call it virtual freedom if you want to call it something. When it is all perfect 100% of the time, and "being" is 100% gone, then call it AF.

Oh, and congrats on whatever shift you are currently enjoying emoticon


I can change the terms if you want. No biggie. But what do you make of these descriptions by Vineeto and Peter of which I would call the residual 'shadow being' upon becoming 'actually free':


SUBSCRIBER NO. 19: Post extinction of identity, how does one operate. Is there a complete break away from the pre-event order of things or does something still linger from the past?

VINEETO: Some things are very simple because the flesh-and-blood body knows how to do most things such as getting up in the morning, taking a bath/swim, making breakfast, answering the phone, typing words, reading and so on. The difference is that doing these things now is a play and a delight and no emotional interference ever occurs.

A lot of things are of course new and I am still finding out. As I said before, I only had a few interactions with identities, and living with two actually free men is an ongoing delight. Some remnant hangovers of my old identity, such as habitual patterns have already come up (Nick- shadow being) and are now in process of vanishing/ have vanished and I am sure some will still occur (Nick- this is also my experience). However, with no emotional ties to impede the operation of a bare awareness/apperception, this is a fairly quick and easy task. (Nick- also my experience)

SUBSCRIBER NO. 19: Does universe is infinite a certainty now? And can you explain about how do you know it with so much certainty.

VINEETO: It has been a certainty for me for a long time, intellectually understood at first, that there can’t be a ‘something’ let alone a ‘nothing’ beyond the imagined borders of the universe and any such ideas were experientially confirmed in my PCEs as being nothing other than human imagination in operation. However, about a week ago, I clearly experienced this consciousness being without limits and the vast stillness of the infinite universe became fully apparent. (Nick- This has also been my experience. I call that which is in the way of such an ongoing 'universe experiencing itself' to be the 'dust on the lens'. Although I continue to talk about it, I neglect to convey how drastically things have fallen away in the past 3 months) I then experienced it as a fact that I am this infinite universe experiencing itself as a flesh-and-blood conscious human being. This experience occurred again today but is not yet an ongoing moment-to-moment experience. (Nick- This is also my experience) Richard reported that it took him several years to realize the full depth and purity of an actual freedom.
It’s still early days. (Nick- indeed)

Cheers Vineeto
http://actualfreedom.com.au/directroute/19.htm#24Jan10


SUBSCRIBER NO. 22: 6 – Peter, do you sense that your actual gravity center shifted to the heart/solar plexus now? I ask because you wrote to Subscriber No. 2 about this:

‘After the rudimentary microscopic backbone was formed, one of the very next cell types to transform from the next cell divisions were heart muscle cells, each one of which twitched such that as they began to collect together they eventually formed a pulsation or beating whole – the beginnings of a human heart, the essential blood pumping organ that gives vitality to a human body.’ (14.1.2010)

PETER: I see that my lack of clarity about this issue in the very first post to the Direct Route mail-out list has lead to a good deal of confusion, made even more confusing by my even more lack of clarity in the follow up post to Subscriber No. 10. (to No. 10, 17.1.2010)

Firstly it is good to put these posts in context in that they were both very raw in that they were written very soon after becoming actually free of the human condition. Whilst I had had some experiences of some minor remnants of the habitual patterns of previous behaviour prior to this (such as jumping from one topic to another in conversations or jumping from one thing to do to the next without fully completing the first instead of sensibly prioritising things to be done and re-adjusting my priorities when and as appropriate) experiencing the physical remnants of a previous very strong (12 year long) motivation still running as a physical sensation after becoming actually free was quite unexpected and at first confusing for me (Nick-shadow being).

Now that the physical remnants of ‘his’ habitual heart-felt feelings and compulsive drive about doing whatever ‘he’ could to bring about peace on earth have now finally disappeared, I can understand what was happening at the time and also understand why it happened. An illusionary identity, over a period of 60 odd years, is so real that it caused physical symptoms in the flesh and body – a tightening of the chest muscles, (Nick- shadow being) in this case. When the identity expired these physical reactions were still habitually at ‘work’ and thus some after-the-event tidying up is required (Nick- shadow being). A bare awareness or apperceptive attentiveness, does the trick far, far quicker than any identity-centred awareness could ever do. (Nick- This is my experience too)

Although I had an inkling of what to expect after becoming actually free because, although Richard reported how he experienced a ‘fine-tuning’ after the event ...

Richard: ‘...there needs to be a tidying-up of social mores and habitual patterns ‘after the event’ anyway ... an actual freedom does not miraculously remove every little detail. It does make the fine-tuning a breeze, though.’ Richard, List AF, No. 12b, 16.2.1999.

(Nick- this is also my experience)

... it still came as somewhat of a shock to experience it myself, hence the confusion that transpired in my writing. (Nick- this is also my experience)

What I find remarkable is that one correspondent was able to work out what was happening for himself, apparently by a clear-eyed reading of the answers to questions posted on the Direct Route mail-out, and subsequently archived on the AF website –
Subscriber No. 2: ‘As for Peter’s experience ‘around the heart area’, I suspect / speculate that it’s nothing more than a temporary physical hangover of the now-defunct affective faculty...(Nick- shadow being)(Message #8899 Yahoo Group Actual Freedom)

http://actualfreedom.com.au/directroute/22.htm#20Jan10


Perhaps we can call it 'early days af.' VF it is not. Malice and sorrow no longer arise. But I get the odd vibrations now and then and the thing I'm calling the 'dust on the lens' which seems to stand between 'the universe experiencing itself' as a permanent ongoing experience. It is easier now to have that as the ongoing experience. I just remember it and it is the experience.
End in Sight, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 10:53 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 10:52 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Bruno, you may want to consider quotes like this:

RICHARD: Yes ... and I have elsewhere used the words ‘mental anguish’ to depict the cranial agitation which went on for 20+ months after the identity who used to inhabit this flesh and blood body expired. Here is an explanation of why:

(Richard): ‘... in 1992, when the break-through into this actual world occurred, the following thirty months or so were a time of intense brain agitation – neuronal excitation – which I have described before as being ‘mental anguish’ (not to be confused with emotional anguish) so as to convey the intensity of the cognisance that no body in human history had ever lived this up until now. That this disconcerting perplexity was only cerebral was evidenced by no sweaty palms, no increased heartbeat, no rapid breathing, no palpations in the solar plexus ... none of those things connected with ‘being’. If I were to look in a mirror during that period and ask ‘who am I’ there was no answer – not even ‘the silence that speaks louder than words’ that I had been experiencing for eleven years – yet the answer to ‘what am I’ was patently obvious and undeniable ... I am this body.


He also wrote:

It was extremely uncomfortable and very disconcerting, perplexing and bewildering.


I do believe it is a valid question to ask what the relationship between this experience and what some of us are reporting is.

It is possible that it is the same (accounting for differences between Richard's mind and others' minds), but it is also possible that it is different, a different profile of "adaptation" effects owing to a difference in the method employed in trying to reach the goal of the end of suffering. Who really knows?

Hopefully we will eventually have the answer to this. emoticon
End in Sight, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 10:53 AM
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RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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lol, Nick beat me to it.
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Bruno Loff, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 11:09 AM
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RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Hmm... I guess "Actually Free" might after all be in accordance with the terminology in use, just not my (now unclear) understanding of it.

So this is confusing for me: if "being" isn't all of these physical tensions, and it isn't their disappearance which signals the disappearance of "being", then what is it? The presence or absence of these is usually my marker to how close I am to a PCE, but if you have these things going on, then maybe they're not the most appropriate measurement.

What makes you not-actually free one moment, but actually free the next?

Also, is Ignorance fully dispelled, or not? Is it that some other point in the chain (of DO) fully illuminated?
End in Sight, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 11:15 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 11:14 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Bruno Loff:
So this is confusing for me: if "being" isn't all of these physical tensions, and it isn't their disappearance which signals the disappearance of "being", then what is it? The presence or absence of these is usually my marker to how close I am to a PCE, but if you have these things going on, then maybe they're not the most appropriate measurement.


I would say that these tensions are residual craving. My take is that 'being' is a word for what is experienced when craving is in full-force, and 'shadow being' (these residual physical tensions) is what is experienced when craving is suppressed but not eliminated.

In general, your previous perspective is correct in that it identifies these tensions as the problem (since they are), so don't change it, but consider that what the AFT counts as the beginning of AF may not be as tension-free as you expected (though it will be much more tension-free than your previous experience).

This is just my best guess about how AF and Buddhism relate, and how our experiences relate to the AFT's model.

Bruno Loff:
Also, is Ignorance fully dispelled, or not? Is it that some other point in the chain (of DO) fully illuminated?


My best guess is that ignorance is partially dispelled (thus craving is partially dispelled).
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Nikolai , modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 11:44 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 11:24 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Bruno Loff:
Hmm... I guess "Actually Free" might after all be in accordance with the terminology in use, just not my (now unclear) understanding of it.

So this is confusing for me: if "being" isn't all of these physical tensions, and it isn't their disappearance which signals the disappearance of "being", then what is it? The presence or absence of these is usually my marker to how close I am to a PCE, but if you have these things going on, then maybe they're not the most appropriate measurement.

What makes you not-actually free one moment, but actually free the next?

Also, is Ignorance fully dispelled, or not? Is it that some other point in the chain (of DO) fully illuminated?


'Being' is a tangibly mentally felt sense of existing. I don't have that tangibly felt sense of existing arising at all now. I really don't. Not like before. There is however some sort of subtle subtle subtle mental something that I call 'dust on the lens' . The lens is already PCE like. There is no attention wave like before. Yet, there is this something there. I think it might be related to a residual habit to control and fabricate the way one pays attention. I have fabricated a lot on the path over the last decade, this nana and that nana, this jhana and that jhana. But all it takes now for the universe to experience itself is to realize there is no need to fabricate the way one pays attention. This residual habit has nothing to do with affect. But it may be related to residual subtle as craving. Not the full blown type like before.

I can't explain the 'dust on the lens' very well as it is extremely subtle. If I pay attention to it, it drops away quickly and the universe is experiencing itself. If I forget to pay attention to it, well it is what I have called 'shadow being'. I have talked with others about such a term. It is not the best term to convey the experience. People project all sorts of ideas onto what it is. I don't think it can be imagined at all. But it is 'shadow' like. It just doesn't have the tangibly mentally felt sense of existing as the full blown 'being' did.

'Being' is the mental felt sense of existing IME. For many 'newly free' claimants, apperception is not 100 % of the time. But like Tommy said, it is damn near close all the time. 10/90. It is but a moment of remembering away if it is not in place. Then again, we may be dealing with different degrees of residue. Tarin had virtually none of it by his own admission and Trent as far as I know had one week of it. Others longer.

And maybe we are talking about some intermittent stage between VF and AF. Who knows?
End in Sight, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 11:31 AM
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RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Nikolai .:
f I forget to pay attention to it, well it is what I have called 'shadow being'. I have talked with others about such a term. It is not the best term to convey the experience. People project all sorts of ideas onto what it is. I don't think it can be imagined at all. But it is 'shadow' like. It just doesn't have the tangibly mentally felt sense of existing as the full blown 'being' did.


If it helps, my experience of it is that it presents as a random mental fluctuation of some sort...the mind generating something or doing something that gets in the way of apperception. Not generating a full blown 'self' or sense of existence, just generating or doing...something.
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Nikolai , modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 11:38 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 11:38 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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End in Sight:
Nikolai .:
f I forget to pay attention to it, well it is what I have called 'shadow being'. I have talked with others about such a term. It is not the best term to convey the experience. People project all sorts of ideas onto what it is. I don't think it can be imagined at all. But it is 'shadow' like. It just doesn't have the tangibly mentally felt sense of existing as the full blown 'being' did.


If it helps, my experience of it is that it presents as a random mental fluctuation of some sort...the mind generating something or doing something that gets in the way of apperception. Not generating a full blown 'self' or sense of existence, just generating or doing...something.


Exactly. That 'something' seems hard to define. But I like the term 'random mental fluctuation'.
End in Sight, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 11:47 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 11:47 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Tommy M:
On Saturday the 29th of October 2011 at approximately 3pm, I became actually free[1].


One possible theory that explains the origin of shadow stuff is that, the more gradual one's attainment, the less shadow stuff there will be (and the less time there will be before it's gone)...the shadow stuff would be an indication that one's mind / brain moved too quickly for there to be a full adaptation to this new mode of experience.

How long would you say it took you between beginning an effective practice aimed at this attainment, and this attainment?
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Nikolai , modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 11:51 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 11:50 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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End in Sight:
Tommy M:
On Saturday the 29th of October 2011 at approximately 3pm, I became actually free[1].


One possible theory that explains the origin of shadow stuff is that, the more gradual one's attainment, the less shadow stuff there will be (and the less time there will be before it's gone)...the shadow stuff would be an indication that one's mind / brain moved too quickly for there to be a full adaptation to this new mode of experience.

How long would you say it took you between beginning an effective practice aimed at this attainment, and this attainment?


These are my thoughts as well. It may also be conditioned by how you triggered the attainment, the type of practice leading up to it perhaps via the way the mind was conditioned to 'pay attention'. I speculate if I had taken on board the recent insight into what I have termed fabricated versus unfabricated paying attention, I would not have spent the past 3 months wondering what was going on.
End in Sight, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 11:55 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 11:55 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Nikolai .:
End in Sight:
Tommy M:
On Saturday the 29th of October 2011 at approximately 3pm, I became actually free[1].


One possible theory that explains the origin of shadow stuff is that, the more gradual one's attainment, the less shadow stuff there will be (and the less time there will be before it's gone)...the shadow stuff would be an indication that one's mind / brain moved too quickly for there to be a full adaptation to this new mode of experience.

How long would you say it took you between beginning an effective practice aimed at this attainment, and this attainment?


These are my thoughts as well.


You know, Nick, that would mean that the practices on HP work too well! emoticon

Nikolai .:
It may also be conditioned by how you triggered the attainment, the type of practice leading up to it perhaps via the way the mind was conditioned to 'pay attention'. I speculate if I had taken on board the recent insight into what I have termed fabricated versus unfabricated paying attention, I would not have spent the past 3 months wondering what was going on.


This is possible too.

I have done a lot of fabricating (in terms of attention), and had a *lot* of shadow stuff at the beginning.
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Nikolai , modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 12:09 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 12:09 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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End in Sight:
You know, Nick, that would mean that the practices on HP work too well! emoticon


The HP can't take all the credit. I was taught those techniques by more advanced yogis than myself. They sure are effective though. Congrats on the big shift Tommy!

Nick
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Bruno Loff, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 3:07 PM
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RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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(Understood, thanks.)
Adam Bieber, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 3:11 PM
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RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Damn Tommy!! I am super jealous. I still gots that desire runnin thru my veins. Congrats! Now you get to be happy every moment for the rest of your life ha.
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Nikolai , modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 3:25 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 3:25 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Damn Tommy!! I am super jealous. I still gots that desire runnin thru my veins. Congrats! Now you get to be happy every moment for the rest of your life ha.


Let this desire feed into pure intent.
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 4:34 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 4:34 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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i've started just thinking of terms of getting EE and VF, which for me translates into paying to the senses in and of themselves and letting whatever happens as a result happen.

That's ideal, don't make it PCE, or even EE a goal 'cause that was a mistake I made for a while. Make this a lifestyle, just live this experience of being alive sincerely and with gusto regardless of what happens, stay attentive to the senses and it'll happen.

Another couple of things I forgot to mention which made a huge change in my practice was learning to become felicitous at will, even if you take a few weeks to focus on this alone it will be worth every second, and making use of the sweet spot technique for cultivating naivetè.

Link-wise, here's some of the stuff I've got that really made a difference, particularly towards "my" last days:

Tarin & Daniel @ Hurricane Ranch - Notes
Advice from Trent and Tarin
SWs Advice to Daniel
Sincerity, Naivetè & Remembering a PCE
AF & Arahatship
Dan Talks PCE Mode vs. Cycling Mode
Claudiu's Practice Thread
Tarins AF Chart 1
Tarins AF Chart 2

There's also The Hamilton Project and Down The Rabbit Hole which are spiffingly good resources.

These are the ones I've marked out as I found them extremely useful, but it's been advice and information from those who've done it already, or are working towards it, on this site and at the HP forum that really made the difference and allowed me to optimize my practice.
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 4:59 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 4:59 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Apologies if I introduced any confusion, Bruno, I only realized I'd gotten into an out-from-control VF about two weeks ago and was calling that VF at first due to the same thing you've mentioned.

What makes you not-actually free one moment, but actually free the next?

What happened for me was that I was sitting on a bus in the way into Glasgow, I was observing how the affective layer is overlayed onto the sensate experience, how "I" appear due to that happening, and how even pleasant or neutral feelings have a greasy layer of suffering covering them as soon as they develop into a full-blown emotional feeling. By seeing how this happened repeatedly, I could see it's arising and passing away, it's impermanence, it's emptiness and how this very feeling was that underlying dissatisfaction which caused so much suffering. Seeing this clearly caused it to cease, when that stopped happening so did "I" and since that moment I have been unable to generate any affect, experience any emotion, or locate any sense of being here in the way "I" was before.

The reason I went public about it so quickly was because it really is such a clean attainment and leaves no uncertainty. Even if it isn't AF/Anagami/Whatever I have no problem with telling everyone that I fucked up and made a mistake, there's nothing to lose from it and there is no sense of pride anymore anyway. emoticon
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 5:23 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 5:23 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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I'll address the bit about shadow being in a seperate comment 'cause I pretty much agree with what you and Nick are saying with this, although I've got a few speculative ideas from other traditions which may be interesting to consider in this context.

How long would you say it took you between beginning an effective practice aimed at this attainment, and this attainment?

To be exact, I sent Nick a message on Arsebook on 28th of June saying "Right, fuck it. Gimme AF. Ha!" so that would be the day I decided to really go for it like I had with the technical Paths. From then until now, roughly five months but during that time I was off work for at least six weeks of that time during which I had no social or work-related stuff to interfere with practice.

Something else to remember when we're talking timescales here is that I'd spent a long time prior to even getting 1st path working with a system, namely chaos magick, where dismantling and changing belief systems and exploring different conceptual maps was a major part of the practice. Because of this, a lot of the social identity stuff had already been dealt with so although it might seem like I made fast progress, which may be the case, there's over a decade of eclectic freestyle practices ranging from pranayama to making artwork with my own blood behind it.

I think those of us who are getting to this point in a seemingly miraculous timescale, at least in comparison to the original AFT crew, have all had some sort of intensive meditative practice behind us which has allowed progress to happen relatively quickly.
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 5:29 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 5:29 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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congrats Tommy M.

Cheers m'dear, I'm assuming that you're still Katy S but now with added visual accompaniment?

comestibles

I like that word.
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Brian Eleven, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 5:49 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 5:49 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Congratulations Tommy, enjoy your new found and permanent freedom!!
Reading your and Nicks posts has inspired me to get a BUS PASS. What the hell?
It's only a 15 minute walk to work, but it might be worth it if I get even a fraction of the results you two have.
emoticon
Brian.
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 5:59 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 5:59 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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End In Sight:
One possible theory that explains the origin of shadow stuff is that, the more gradual one's attainment, the less shadow stuff there will be (and the less time there will be before it's gone)...the shadow stuff would be an indication that one's mind / brain moved too quickly for there to be a full adaptation to this new mode of experience.


Nick:
These are my thoughts as well. It may also be conditioned by how you triggered the attainment, the type of practice leading up to it perhaps via the way the mind was conditioned to 'pay attention'. I speculate if I had taken on board the recent insight into what I have termed fabricated versus unfabricated paying attention, I would not have spent the past 3 months wondering what was going on.


I also agree that there's a connection between how quickly AF is realized and how much shadow stuff remains, but I think Nick makes a good point about the variability of practice and what triggered the realization. I suspect that overall practice history pre-1st path is also a contributing factor, although from my own experience it's far too early to tell how this has informed the amount of dust which remains on the otherwise pristine lens of perception.

The point about fabricated vs. unfabricated paying attention rings true as I sit here right now. Letting go of paying attention and just experiencing the sense contacts as they arise causes apperception to occur, this is what I intend to continue doing constantly until everything is 100% clear.
End in Sight, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 6:08 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 6:08 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Tommy M:
Something else to remember when we're talking timescales here is that I'd spent a long time prior to even getting 1st path working with a system, namely chaos magick, where dismantling and changing belief systems and exploring different conceptual maps was a major part of the practice. Because of this, a lot of the social identity stuff had already been dealt with so although it might seem like I made fast progress, which may be the case, there's over a decade of eclectic freestyle practices ranging from pranayama to making artwork with my own blood behind it.


This (the relevance of pre-path work) is a very deep idea, which I never gave serious consideration, but now (reflecting on my life) see that I was perhaps remiss in not doing so.

I will start a thread about this when I have a chance.
John Freeman, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 6:43 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 6:43 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Hi Tommy, and congratulations!

Tommy M:

The point about fabricated vs. unfabricated paying attention rings true as I sit here right now. Letting go of paying attention and just experiencing the sense contacts as they arise causes apperception to occur, this is what I intend to continue doing constantly until everything is 100% clear.


Would you also recommend it for someone who hasn't got there yet? What advice would you give someone who had no prior attainments and wanted to do this? Could this simple practice take someone all the way?

-- John F
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James Yen, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 6:43 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 6:43 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Nikolai .:
End in Sight:
Nikolai .:
f I forget to pay attention to it, well it is what I have called 'shadow being'. I have talked with others about such a term. It is not the best term to convey the experience. People project all sorts of ideas onto what it is. I don't think it can be imagined at all. But it is 'shadow' like. It just doesn't have the tangibly mentally felt sense of existing as the full blown 'being' did.


If it helps, my experience of it is that it presents as a random mental fluctuation of some sort...the mind generating something or doing something that gets in the way of apperception. Not generating a full blown 'self' or sense of existence, just generating or doing...something.


Exactly. That 'something' seems hard to define. But I like the term 'random mental fluctuation'.


"
RICHARD: Yes ... a rudimentary animal self, as it were, however inchoate it may be.

"

http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/listafcorrespondence/listaf62.htm


Inchoate:

1. not yet completed or fully developed; rudimentary.
2. just begun; incipient.
3. not organized; lacking order: an inchoate mass of ideas on the subject

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inchoate


Just a thought.

Anyways let's not twist terms and thus lower standards for things which originally had strict definition. For example: The time that Daniel claimed the same Enlightenment of the Buddha and the Arahats at the time of the Buddha, but technically directly contradicted the criteria of Arahatship in the Pali Canon.

Similarly, if AF is seen as the entire, 100%, unequivocal elimination of Malice and Sorrow. With the elimination of the Instinctual Passions in there ENTIRETY.

Then any experience of those same passions, means you're not AF, it is really that simple.

Nevertheless congratulations Nick, End In Sight and Tommy, it seems that the DhO really can handle/attain/practice whatever is thrown at it.

Just one more thing:

AF Criteria:

"
Just for the record, then, here is a by-no-means exhaustive check-list of the main properties pertaining to an actual freedom from the human condition (in addition to the outstandingly magical property spelled-out further above):
1. No identity whatsoever.
2. No affective faculty at all (including its epiphenomenal psychic facility).
3. Utterly impervious to, and freely functioning without, both affective ‘vibes’ and psychic ‘currents’.
4. No separation (an actual intimacy) whatsoever betwixt this body and every body and every thing and every event.
5. Eternal time (no movement of time whatsoever) as expressed in, for instance, ‘this moment has no duration’.
6. Infinite space (the direct experiencing of limitlessness).
7. An apperceptive awareness (whereby all thought emerges from the full field of consciousness) of being alive/being here.
8. As a flesh and blood body only (sans the entire affective faculty/identity in toto) one is this infinite and eternal and perdurable universe experiencing itself as an apperceptive human being ... as such it is stunningly aware of its own infinitude.
And this is truly wonderful.

"

http://actualfreedom.com.au/announcement.htm
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 7:32 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 7:32 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Thanks John,

Would you also recommend it for someone who hasn't got there yet?

Absotiveleposilutely.

What advice would you give someone who had no prior attainments and wanted to do this?

It would depend on what sort of practices suited that person best, there appear to be a few options and those of us who've done it recently seems to have taken more of a hybrid approach rather than stick to any one method. The common factor in all of the approaches is what the AF site calls attentiveness to sensuousness, basically just constantly paying attention to what's happening at the sense doors, which will gradually lead to apperception a.k.a. PCE. This is also true for the Dependent Origination approach, essentially cutting off ignorance at the point of sense contact by continually bringing attention back to that point. Obviously I'm over simplifying this massively but there's a shitload of information on this site alone that could allow someone to make serious progress if sufficiently intent on it.

All in all, it would seem that it's simply attentiveness to the senses on a moment by moment basis, a process which is made easier by using the question "How am I experiencing this moment of being alive" to direct the mind towards the immediate experience so as to enquire into it's quality. If this moment is not felicitous and malice or ill will exists, find out why by investigating the social identity, the various masks we don in our interactions with the world around us, seeing clearly what is factual and actual, and what is belief[1] so that attention can be returned to the senses again. Again, vastly oversimplified for the purpose of a quick response but hopefully that can give you an idea of how to go about it although ask as much as you like, if I can't offer a useful answer then there are others who probably can.

Could this simple practice take someone all the way?

Good question, but I have no concrete answer for that one. I suspect that this is possible, if we're looking at it from the dependent origination angle then it would make sense as far as I can tell. What I can say with 100% certainty is that this shift into "AF", (again I use this term for convenience since the correspondences to other traditional attainment is something we'll probably be discussing for quite some time to come) was the same as the "Path moments" which occurred upon stream-entry, and 4th path as it's described in MCTB[2], so I'm inclined to think that "AF" is not exclusive to Richard & Co. and may well be more aligned with traditional Buddhist models of enlightenment. It's really not important when it comes down to it, what matters is finding a practice that works and allows one to put an end to suffering.

Hopefully that's of some use to you.


[1] A belief is defined as "Mental acceptance of a claim as truth regardless of supporting or contrary empirical evidence."
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/belief - My emphasis on the "mental" part.

[2] I see you only have one post on here so just in case you weren't aware, MCTB is the abbreviation used on here for "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha" by Dr. Ingram, the founder of this site. There's a complicated story involved with stuff like the MCTB technical model and how these things correspond with the 10-fetter model and all sorts of stuff which would be of little practical use to you right now, so I won't bore you with the details.
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Andrew , modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 8:55 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 8:55 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Thanks for the thread Tommy. Happy days...congratulations.
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(D Z) Dhru Val, modified 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 10:18 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/31/11 10:18 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Congrats! emoticon
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Jon T, modified 10 Years ago at 11/1/11 1:48 AM
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RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Thank you Tommy! look forward to joining the club one day!
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Pål S, modified 10 Years ago at 11/1/11 5:25 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 11/1/11 5:25 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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“Before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment; chop wood, carry water.”

“Sitting quietly, doing nothing, spring comes, and the grass grows by itself.”


Congrats Tommy!; you weren't messing about...
John Freeman, modified 10 Years ago at 11/1/11 5:39 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 11/1/11 5:39 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Tommy M:

Hopefully that's of some use to you.


It is, thanks.

And let me tell you, I'm glad you've done this, Tommy. I've read a lot of your posts these last few months, and you always came across as someone I can relate to, like one of my old 'gang' so to speak. It makes me believe that if you can do this, so can I -- if I put in the work, that is.

All the best, man. Enjoy the fruits!

-- John F
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 11/1/11 6:07 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 11/1/11 6:07 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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@ Andrew - Cheers! Glad it's of use.

@ DZ - And thank you too!

@ Jon T - Thanks Jon. What flipped it for me was seeing how the affective layer is being overlayed and how it's the same thing that happens every time whether it's a positive, negative or neutral feeling. Easier said than done, I know, but I'm just happy that doing this makes it more realistic and achievable for everyone else.

@ Anyone else I haven't thanked for their congratulations and support - Thank you!
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 11/1/11 6:13 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 11/1/11 6:13 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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And let me tell you, I'm glad you've done this, Tommy. I've read a lot of your posts these last few months, and you always came across as someone I can relate to, like one of my old 'gang' so to speak. It makes me believe that if you can do this, so can I -- if I put in the work, that is.

Ha! Excellent, it's definitely doable and I'm happy that you've got some use out of my various ramblings. I take your comment as a huge compliment, it's true that if I can do it then anyone can 'cause I'm a normal guy with a family, a job and an IQ that wouldn't even get me a refusal letter from MENSA. emoticon

Looking forward to hearing more from you on here, John, hopefully you'll find something that works for you and get a practice thread going on here.

Peace.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 10 Years ago at 11/1/11 7:26 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 11/1/11 7:26 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
The common factor in all of the approaches is what the AF site calls attentiveness to sensuousness, basically just constantly paying attention to what's happening at the sense doors, which will gradually lead to apperception a.k.a. PCE. This is also true for the Dependent Origination approach, essentially cutting off ignorance at the point of sense contact by continually bringing attention back to that point. Obviously I'm over simplifying this massively but there's a shitload of information on this site alone that could allow someone to make serious progress if sufficiently intent on it.

All in all, it would seem that it's simply attentiveness to the senses on a moment by moment basis, a process which is made easier by using the question "How am I experiencing this moment of being alive" to direct the mind towards the immediate experience so as to enquire into it's quality. If this moment is not felicitous and malice or ill will exists, find out why by investigating the social identity, the various masks we don in our interactions with the world around us, seeing clearly what is factual and actual, and what is belief[1] so that attention can be returned to the senses again. Again, vastly oversimplified for the purpose of a quick response but hopefully that can give you an idea of how to go about it although ask as much as you like, if I can't offer a useful answer then there are others who probably can.
This can fit on a postcard. Brilliantly simple instructions.
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 11/1/11 3:38 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 11/1/11 3:38 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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That sounds rather accurate, as far as I can tell so far. Thanks for adding the link too, looks like an interesting article overall!
Felipe C, modified 10 Years ago at 11/2/11 12:18 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 11/2/11 12:18 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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Tommy, congratulations and thanks so much for posting this. It is just what I needed, I was a little disperse. I read this thread and got very inspired to return to serious practice. I went for a walk and had a couple of EE moments.

Stay well! emoticon
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 10 Years ago at 11/4/11 5:52 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 11/3/11 11:53 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

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11/4/11 12:01 AM
Shooey, it's been a cognitive several days with big, still, patient sittings (access jhana, winks of abby sorption, open sensory awareness and vipassana), no PCE. I don't even miss PCE - it's as if when some insight work needs to be done (or "I" just wants some self-entertaining conceptual chill fest) the PCE engine shuts down and sitting, higher stage cycling and discursive cognition ramps up (I do enjoy those postage-stamp-value internal dialogues)...other than getting a bus ticket to somewhere, your thoughts, Tommy?

I can tell I am about to re-enter PCE/mobile absorption jhana, or at least stay in nice sensory perception (which kicked in of its own early this afternoon) for a set of days/x-duration...there is sort of a default dropping into the senses after cognition spins for a bit and then is settled nonchalantly by the higher stages of insight. I seem to have cognition-insight-jhana/PCE "layer cake" (I like your visual on that one). Insight seems to be cycling around "Review" - going back over what I've done, long at ease sits with fine attention on whatever, (though I had a large wave of misery-moment two weeks ago - which was digested by the higher stages within 30 hours). I scheduled to do 10-day shikantaza at a monastery later this month in order to give a healthy, continuous chunk of intention and effort to Review/whatever-the-hoohaa-is-still-in-the-brain-bank-making-cognitive-layer-cake (which I think it can still do, but less obtusely in PCE/no more coming into being). It's quite possible none of the above makes sense and MENSA has a letter of welcome for you in being able to read this far...

Also, how's day four seven going for you? Work? Friends and family?

You've noted some hard stuff in your posts, so this is exceedingly cool and genuine exciting to see you land in AF.

[edits: strike-outs, at a loss for words...hmm, well, again, it's superb to see you entered your goal. I started to use the word "genuine" which reflected my appreciation for whence you've come, but it could be read to mean others' own AF-landings are not perceived as genuine - not my thinking at all, so I deleted that word choice.]

-------
11/4/11 5:52 AM
Morning Tommy - never mind the above (except for more congrats)! I came home a little dreamy last night, and it's tempting to ask you "how's today? and today? and today?", but your posts will show all that anyway (though if you want to answer, that's lovely). And as for my own questions, I think it all works out. At a point I think the efforts that have to be done show themselves (through continued resolution, attention, intention, effort), and whatever stage this is, is very nice. I definitely think your above instructions (the "postcard") in conjunction with classic instructions here (Practical Insight Meditation), "to be sensate" are the things to just keep doing." Cheers
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Shashank Dixit, modified 10 Years ago at 11/4/11 1:50 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 11/4/11 1:50 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

Posts: 282 Join Date: 9/11/10 Recent Posts
Very inspiring. Congrats Tommy !!
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)( piscivorous, modified 10 Years ago at 11/4/11 8:03 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 11/4/11 8:03 AM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

Posts: 36 Join Date: 12/8/10 Recent Posts
Congratulations, Tommy! I can't tell you how much this strengthens my faith and resolve. I hope to reproduce similar results emoticon

I've been enjoying reading you here and over at the HP and look forward to more of your insight!
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 10 Years ago at 11/29/11 2:53 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 11/29/11 2:49 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
(A sub-thread, starting with Simon L's post, has been split off from this one and moved to here, since it was no longer about practice but about the qualities of practitioners themselves. Feel free to continue that discussion in the new location.)
Mahaparinirvana Sutra, modified 10 Years ago at 11/29/11 5:35 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 11/29/11 5:35 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

Posts: 8 Join Date: 11/29/11 Recent Posts
I agree completely with you! I think the subtle semantic issues are actually leading to a huge misunderstanding on nearly everyone's behalf to what is common experience living with "AF". I get the impression we are setting the bar lower then it should be and covering up with semantics, as well as becoming entrapped by the subtle motivational tendency to appease intellectual materialism and 'attain' the title, moreover to 'maintain' the title once something arises in ones life that truly nullifies the claim of "AF".

Is it possible that more are comfortable doing enough work to self-justify the title of being "AF" then putting in the actual intensives required to truly be liberated.

Similar argument took place for the longest time during the past 2500 years of Buddhism. It is a shame that most seem you seem to think that AF and the argument of what is actual freedom is an old one and not one that started with the modern-west...gosh our culture breeds deep egoism and subtle but pervasive arrogance.
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josh r s, modified 10 Years ago at 11/29/11 5:49 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 11/29/11 5:47 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

Posts: 337 Join Date: 9/16/11 Recent Posts
you have made two posts espousing this view, but i think that if you look around a bit more you will see that people aren't really limiting themselves in the way you think they are, there is plenty of examination of states achieved and methods used. I think the most common view among DhOers is that "late[1]" Actual Freedom is either an intermediary stage of enlightenment or the real thing, though there haven't been any surveys emoticon. but if you could be more specific in your criticism of the condition of actual freedom then the debate and understanding could be helped along more.

have you experienced actual freedom and then moved on? could you be a bit more specific in your criticisms?

[1] there is some distinguishing between "early" and "late" actual freedom, some have speculated anagami vs. arahant, some even think that "early" actual freedom is simply stream entry
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 10 Years ago at 11/29/11 11:09 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 11/29/11 11:09 PM

RE: On Realizing An Actual Freedom

Posts: 3231 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
It would also be interesting to detail the depth, width and breadth of your personal experience and conversations with those who claim AF upon which you make that claim.