Is it possible to fall from a higher stage to a lower one post stream entry

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Mitz U, modified 6 Months ago at 5/20/22 3:07 AM
Created 6 Months ago at 5/20/22 3:00 AM

Is it possible to fall from a higher stage to a lower one post stream entry

Posts: 17 Join Date: 5/5/22 Recent Posts
I remember reading in Mctb book that you no longer did, but i cant find the chapter where Daniel talks about it.

Pls bear with me as i have been out of practice for about 11 years and im rusty with my knowledge. Afaik i am in the middle paths (2nd or 3rd)

So last week, i just finished the Dukkha Nanas and afaik i was in Reobservation. I didnt quite feel like I hit equanimity. I used to KNOW equanimity like it is so easy to spot it. I felt only a moment or like a minute after the Reobservation phase. Was that it? It usually has lasted for me at least DAYS, the same length approx. as the A&P and the Dukkha stage.

The next day, i was too busy to meditate, and so i just kept meditating following that and kept wondering what happened to the equanimity stage?
All I know is A&P was gone, Dukkha stage was gone, Equanimity was nowhere in sight. 
​​​​​​​I couldn't tell if I was in 3C or Mind and Body. I really have a hard time telling the difference with these stages.
​​​​​​
One week later, today i feel like i am in early A and P. What happened??

Did i fall back to 3Characteristics? 

Or am I in a new cycle? 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 6 Months ago at 5/20/22 5:00 AM
Created 6 Months ago at 5/20/22 4:53 AM

RE: Is it possible to fall from a higher stage to a lower one post stream e

Posts: 6859 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
If you go through the dukkha ñanas and don't nail equanimity, it's quite normal to fall back into the lower ñanas. Cycling only from the A&P is a very temporary thing. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 6 Months ago at 5/20/22 6:31 AM
Created 6 Months ago at 5/20/22 6:31 AM

RE: Is it possible to fall from a higher stage to a lower one post stream e

Posts: 2459 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Mitz its of more benefit to notice/note these thinking patterns concerning the practice than to know exactly where you are emoticon Include this in your practice. It's ok to be uncertain. Yes, notice this also. Notice/note the urge to fall back to the old way of practicing. Note/Notice the feeling tone associated with not being certain about what is going on etc ... What you ask about is to be noted/noticed, and investigated emoticon That's your practice material. Right here.

Best wishes! (maybe start a Practice Log and keep posting daily or so about your experience and Im sure you will get more practical advice that way)
George S, modified 6 Months ago at 5/20/22 7:47 AM
Created 6 Months ago at 5/20/22 7:47 AM

RE: Is it possible to fall from a higher stage to a lower one post stream e

Posts: 2603 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
What Papa Che said.

By third path people often find noting less compelling anyway and become less identified with cycling through the nanas. It’s where this whole fanciful notion of “progress” starts falling apart. Not meant to be a diagnosis, just something to bear in mind. Expectations, wondering, doubts, confusion - these are all just thoughts. See thoughts as thoughts, feelings as feelings, sensations as sensations.
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Mitz U, modified 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 12:22 AM
Created 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 12:22 AM

RE: Is it possible to fall from a higher stage to a lower one post stream e

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö
If you go through the dukkha ñanas and don't nail equanimity, it's quite normal to fall back into the lower ñanas. Cycling only from the A&P is a very temporary thing. 

Ok. Noted. So, it is possible to fall back to lower nanas even if you are in 2nd or 3rd path. That was just the part I was confused about. So, I know that I can't fall back to the lower Paths, but I can do fall back to the lower Nanas. Ok, got it. Thank you!
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Mitz U, modified 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 12:46 AM
Created 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 12:25 AM

RE: Is it possible to fall from a higher stage to a lower one post stream e

Posts: 17 Join Date: 5/5/22 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko
Mitz its of more benefit to notice/note these thinking patterns concerning the practice than to know exactly where you are emoticon Include this in your practice. It's ok to be uncertain. Yes, notice this also. Notice/note the urge to fall back to the old way of practicing. Note/Notice the feeling tone associated with not being certain about what is going on etc ... What you ask about is to be noted/noticed, and investigated emoticon That's your practice material. Right here.

Best wishes! (maybe start a Practice Log and keep posting daily or so about your experience and Im sure you will get more practical advice that way)
Thank you! You are right and I do exactly what you are saying.

But should I be strategic with scheduling my meditation hours? If I can fall back from Dukkha nanas, will it be difficult for me to actually get fruitons and possibly get to higher paths If I am in the Dukkha Nanas and I stop meditating for a day? Should I schedule it so that once I am at the Dukkha nana stages, I push with solid days where I do 10 hours of meditation for the next couple of days? I can do this if I schedule it. Will that be a good strategy? As compared to just meditating randomly when I have more time.

​​​​​​​Is it of utmost importance to push through Dukkha Nanas, all the way through equanimity and all the way to a fruiton? And try to compress the time when you are achieving this? To prevent falling back?
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Mitz U, modified 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 12:46 AM
Created 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 12:30 AM

RE: Is it possible to fall from a higher stage to a lower one post stream e

Posts: 17 Join Date: 5/5/22 Recent Posts
George S
What Papa Che said.

By third path people often find noting less compelling anyway and become less identified with cycling through the nanas. It’s where this whole fanciful notion of “progress” starts falling apart. Not meant to be a diagnosis, just something to bear in mind. Expectations, wondering, doubts, confusion - these are all just thoughts. See thoughts as thoughts, feelings as feelings, sensations as sensations.

Thank you. Yes, I think I have totally let go of noting now, and have let go of it since the first couple of weeks after I resumed my practice.
I have not been preoccupied with the stages of insight until I hit A&P and the Dukkha Nanas, just to be careful.

This particular Dukkha stage WAS pretty bad.. I don't remember it being this bad! It wasn't the dissolution, but the misery,desire for deliverance stages after that, I felt it really strong, strongest I have ever. 

But should I be strategic with scheduling my meditation hours? If I can fall back from Dukkha nanas, will it be difficult for me to actually get fruitons and possibly get to higher paths If I am in the Dukkha Nanas and I stop meditating for a day? Should I schedule it so that once I am at the Dukkha nana stages, I push with solid days where I do 10 hours of meditation for the next couple of days? I can do this if I schedule it. Will that be a good strategy? As compared to just meditating randomly when I have more time.

Is it of utmost importance to push through Dukkha Nanas, all the way through equanimity and all the way to a fruiton? And try to compress the time when you are achieving this? To prevent falling back?


 
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Mitz U, modified 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 12:46 AM
Created 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 12:41 AM

RE: Is it possible to fall from a higher stage to a lower one post stream e

Posts: 17 Join Date: 5/5/22 Recent Posts
Should I be strategic with scheduling my meditation hours? If I can fall back from Dukkha nanas, will it be difficult for me to actually get fruitons and possibly get to higher paths If I am in the Dukkha Nanas and I stop meditating for a day? Should I schedule it so that once I am at the Dukkha nana stages, I push with solid days where I do 10 hours of meditation for the next couple of days? I can do this if I schedule it. Will that be a good strategy? As compared to just meditating randomly when I have more time.

​​​​​​​Is it of utmost importance to push through Dukkha Nanas, all the way through equanimity and all the way to a fruiton? And try to compress the time when you are achieving this? To prevent falling back?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 3:31 AM
Created 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 3:31 AM

RE: Is it possible to fall from a higher stage to a lower one post stream e

Posts: 6859 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Yes, that's right. 

And to complicate things, you can also temporarily fall back into lower paths for the purpose of having repeat fruitions. That makes it complicated to diagnose where one is at, but it's nothing to worry about. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 3:39 AM
Created 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 3:32 AM

RE: Is it possible to fall from a higher stage to a lower one post stream e

Posts: 6859 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Falling back is not a problem. It's a way to deepen your insights. I'd say it's more of a spiral than a circle. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 3:35 AM
Created 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 3:35 AM

RE: Is it possible to fall from a higher stage to a lower one post stream e

Posts: 2459 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Yes it's good to have daily sit or two. I'm not sure it's good to do the 10 hours to "push through". The idea is to observe this "urge to push through" and this you can investigate easily with one or two 45-60 minutes sits every day. 

The goal is NOT to try to push through anything. The goal is to see the "reactive patterns" unfolding within our meditation practice. Why is This Moment not good as it already Is? 

Btw, I would not discard Noting. Actually I would advice using any of the tools from your yogi tool box and use them. See with each session which tool seems to be more "proper" for that sit and do it. See if another tool pops up later in the session. Check that one out. 

But do observe the urges to do this or that with the practice. 

It's not about "pushing through it all". There is no other "goal" but "right here". If it's unpleasant ok. If it's pleasant ok. If it's neutral ok. 
If it's "confusing and uncertain" also ok emoticon 
If it's about thinking about "fruitions and higher paths" also ok. 

Don't go chasing waterfalls. Right Here is all you need + urges to do something about this moment (especially strong urge to remove unpleasant stages/states). 

Best wishes! (Try and start a practice journal as that way people can easier help you. More info is needed from your actual sits to give better tips) 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 3:36 AM
Created 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 3:36 AM

RE: Is it possible to fall from a higher stage to a lower one post stream e

Posts: 6859 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
It's more important to have a daily practice than to schedule 10 hour sessions now and then. Of course you can add retreat time to your daily practice, but don't get hung up on the ñanas like that. 
George S, modified 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 7:22 AM
Created 6 Months ago at 5/21/22 7:22 AM

RE: Is it possible to fall from a higher stage to a lower one post stream e

Posts: 2603 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Linda and Papa Che gave good advice. You can't really game the nanas like that. Note it as:- planning, strategizing, fantasizing etc. Know everything as it arises, as it is. Better to have a consistent daily practice, though no harm in adding extra hours when you can/want.
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Mitz U, modified 6 Months ago at 5/22/22 11:57 PM
Created 6 Months ago at 5/22/22 11:57 PM

RE: Is it possible to fall from a higher stage to a lower one post stream e

Posts: 17 Join Date: 5/5/22 Recent Posts
Thank you everyone. I might just start a practice journal.

​​​​​​​Note: I am on avg meditating 3 hours a day. Busy days 1-2 hours. Free days 4 hours. A good day is 5 hours. Im pushing for 5+ hrs a day from now on simply because i have the time and that is the life i want right now in my life. Im not forcing or pushing it. I simply want to dedicate myself.

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