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On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Tommy M 11/10/11 4:04 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... josh r s 11/5/11 6:03 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Nikolai . 11/5/11 6:47 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 11/5/11 6:49 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 11/6/11 6:35 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Steph S 11/5/11 6:36 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... John Freeman 11/5/11 7:03 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... End in Sight 11/5/11 7:09 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Brian Eleven 11/5/11 7:19 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... bill of the wandering mind 11/5/11 7:26 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Jon T 11/5/11 8:01 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Adam Bieber 11/5/11 8:01 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 11/5/11 8:58 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Andrew . 11/5/11 10:37 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... James Yen 11/5/11 11:34 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Jon T 11/5/11 11:51 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Daniel M. Ingram 11/6/11 1:25 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Marius K 11/6/11 6:56 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Daniel M. Ingram 11/6/11 11:04 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Nikolai . 11/6/11 11:28 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Marius K 11/8/11 11:32 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... #1 - 0 11/8/11 5:11 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... John Wilde 11/8/11 5:47 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... #1 - 0 11/8/11 6:21 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... John Wilde 11/8/11 6:25 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Marius K 11/10/11 6:42 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... #1 - 0 11/10/11 5:09 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Daniel M. Ingram 11/10/11 7:37 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... End in Sight 11/10/11 8:06 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Andrew . 11/10/11 9:48 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Marius K 11/11/11 11:45 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 11/11/11 12:02 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Marius K 11/12/11 5:21 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... #1 - 0 11/12/11 8:43 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... #1 - 0 11/11/11 2:29 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 11/11/11 3:20 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Bruno Loff 11/11/11 12:50 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Gardol U. Yack 12/16/11 9:31 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 12/16/11 10:39 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Gardol U. Yack 12/17/11 7:59 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... tarin greco 12/18/11 2:26 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Gardol U. Yack 1/23/12 9:47 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Marius K 11/11/11 11:07 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... #1 - 0 11/11/11 11:36 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... John Wilde 11/6/11 7:45 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Yadid dee 11/7/11 3:40 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Liam O'Sullivan 11/7/11 4:59 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Daniel M. Ingram 11/7/11 5:05 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 11/7/11 6:16 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Daniel M. Ingram 11/7/11 6:38 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... josh r s 11/7/11 7:50 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Nikolai . 11/7/11 7:09 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Andrew . 11/7/11 7:26 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... . Jake . 11/7/11 8:47 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Steph S 11/7/11 9:48 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... John Mitchell 11/7/11 11:53 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Daniel M. Ingram 11/8/11 12:17 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... John Wilde 11/8/11 1:20 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Steph S 11/8/11 2:12 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Daniel M. Ingram 11/8/11 6:01 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Nikolai . 11/8/11 6:27 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... . Jake . 11/8/11 7:54 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Nikolai . 11/8/11 5:39 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... John Mitchell 11/8/11 5:56 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Andrew . 11/8/11 7:13 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... John Wilde 11/8/11 8:16 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... John Wilde 11/8/11 8:21 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Nikolai . 11/8/11 9:50 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Tommy M 11/9/11 4:25 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Steph S 11/9/11 5:47 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... #1 - 0 11/9/11 6:17 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Nikolai . 11/9/11 6:34 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... josh r s 11/9/11 6:35 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Nikolai . 11/9/11 6:37 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... #1 - 0 11/9/11 11:06 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Daniel M. Ingram 11/10/11 1:34 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Steph S 11/10/11 2:29 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... End in Sight 11/10/11 1:37 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... End in Sight 11/10/11 5:30 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... #1 - 0 11/10/11 7:19 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... End in Sight 11/10/11 7:38 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... #1 - 0 11/10/11 9:27 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Steph S 11/9/11 6:34 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... . Jake . 11/7/11 7:40 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Andrew . 11/7/11 8:23 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... John Wilde 11/7/11 9:07 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... John Mitchell 11/7/11 11:45 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... John Wilde 11/8/11 1:45 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... John Mitchell 11/8/11 4:07 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... John Wilde 11/8/11 4:31 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Bruno Loff 11/8/11 6:37 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... End in Sight 11/8/11 8:17 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... josh r s 11/8/11 8:28 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Nikolai . 11/8/11 8:48 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... End in Sight 11/8/11 9:16 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... J A M 11/9/11 6:49 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Nikolai . 11/9/11 7:10 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Andrew . 11/9/11 11:52 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... J A M 11/9/11 8:24 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... End in Sight 11/8/11 8:10 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Daniel Johnson 11/8/11 7:06 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Gerry T 11/7/11 7:49 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Pål S. 11/16/11 5:09 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Jon T 11/17/11 7:42 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Pål S. 11/18/11 4:29 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Jon T 11/18/11 12:15 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Daniel M. Ingram 11/19/11 7:05 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Tommy M 11/19/11 7:46 PM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Nikolai . 11/20/11 10:51 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... An Eternal Now 11/21/11 5:04 AM
RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things... Daniel Johnson 11/8/11 6:52 PM
Yesterday, I was abruptly kicked out of heaven and found myself broken on the shores of affective reality.

I prematurely publicized my claim to AF, only to wake up yesterday morning to a noisy visual field, irritation and that familiar feeling of complete and utter disillusionment with the entire world. The previous five days had been a long PCE, but it had been so clean and stable [1] that any thought about it coming to an end was met with laughter. The experience lined up with every description I'd read or heard about AF, talking to people who'd gotten it before me made perfect sense and it was possible to discuss these things in mutually understandable, non-affective terms, and due to the length and clarity of it I could not conceive of it ever ending. It did. Painfully.

It's taken some serious examination and painful investigation for me to get to the point where I can stand up and admit to this gargantuan fuck up, even though when posting from the actual world I stated that it wouldn't be a problem if I was wrong. The fear of being seen as foolish, issues of pride, worrying about having to argue[2] with people or apologize for misleading people...all of these bullshit, empty fears still propagating the very thing I thought had been seen through for the last time.

I could have kept quiet about this but it would serve no purpose, admitting this publicly forces "me" to examine what's going on and will hopefully stand as an example to others of how easy it can be to be so wrong about attainments. I stand by the advice I gave in the previous thread about remaining attentive to sensuousness constantly as that's what revealed the longest, most incredible PCE yet and is what will do the damage in the end. It turns out Bruno was correct, I did indeed do those who've gotten AF a disservice and I apologize for any misunderstanding or misleading information I may have given.

On the upside, there is no doubt left about AF and how worthwhile it is. For five days, I lived in Heaven and still there are flickers of the wonderous actual world cutting through this comparatively drab affective experience. To be a feeling being is to be utterly fucking insane, there is nothing, literally nothing, more worthwhile, sensible, useful, practical, wonderful and perfect as living in the actual world.

Again, I apologize for whatever confusion or misunderstanding I may have created by being a blabbermouth arsehole.

I will not be back on the forums until "I" am 100% gone and affect is eliminated. I resolve to attain this as soon as possible, but will maintain my silence until I know this to be certain.

Peace.Now. And it is literally beyond imagination.

[1] I say "stable", but there's no such thing. What I mean is that this experience was so pristine and complete, even compared to any of the three full-blown PCE's which had occurred over the last year or so, that I considered it impossible to be anything other than AF.

[2] How fucking stupid that idea even sounds makes me nauseous.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/5/11 6:03 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
tommy, i personally was harmed in no way by this, also, i don't see you as foolish but rather someone who made a sincere mistake (without negative consequences to anyone except his imagined self) and who was very brave to admit it. i seriously didn't even feel a flicker of resentment, just some admiration.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/5/11 6:47 PM as a reply to josh r s.
I had a 20 hour PCE that I would have sworn was AF. It was pristine and clear and matched all descriptions I'd read. Alas, after those 20 wonderful hours, I also woke up to 'me' manifesting as angst. This was approximately within a month before something flipped permanently in the brain. A 5 day PCE is pretty good progress. Keep going, keep paying attention. It's inevitable.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/6/11 6:35 AM as a reply to Tommy M.
11/5/11 6:27 PM
Tommy M,

For me, you come across as an authentic person, which arises from your candor. Your humor delivers the candor so well. I've chatted to you before that your candor and posts (as they are NOW) render you a most valuable teacher.


Coming from me, the long-winded obtuse one, this may not feel so super-complimentary. One the other hand, I am an analytical-detail chick, and you can at least know that [edit: no idea where I was going with this phrase other than to undermine the detail of basic sentence structure]

gargantuan fuck up
awesome. I was walking and talking with an AFer and they made a completely false statement; their own reply was just along the lines, "wait a minute, that's completely untrue." Yep, ok. Moving on to that which is...

by being a blabbermouth
Gentle! That is technically a "flapping pie hole" (Ingram liguistics)

will maintain my silence until I know this to be certain.
may I say: ça c'est le doodoo caca. If you read something and have something you suspect may be useful and relevant (or irreverent and silly), why not [speaketh up]?


The fear of being seen as foolish, issues of pride, worrying about having to argue[2] with people or apologize for misleading people...all of these bullshit, empty fears
having laid around on the forest floor waiting for a grizzly to admonish my presence at mealtime, and rolled a car off a road in a blizzard in a remote area, and climbed into a destroyed skyscraper vestige of a stairwell looking for bodies and....blahblahblah, I can tell you none of those things matter at death. So, you know what to do with them. Really: if someone wants to hold onto anything in regards to "Tommy M" (bad or good) that's their dharma. Whereas your dharma just (appeared to me to have) deepened.

And, speaking from personal experience from about two weeks ago, truly, something like this can be very freeing. The self that attacks itself for being different than its experience from the yesterdays, the self that can experience pride, worry - that self can now be worked on, sat with, and dissolved.

I truly hope you can laugh and feel this big balloon let go. This is such a awesome opportunity to release the selfhood (which can make such formations) go from Arising into Passing Away, and Insight the bejesus out of it*.


*borrowing expression from Andrew Jones here.

[edit: grammar, spelling and in brackets]
_____
11/6/11 6:35 AM:
Also, I thought I had landed what is called AF here this summer and said as much here on the DhO; in reality I was cycling between a little Dispassion and a lot of apperception. Beo and Bruno helped see me to that. I then felt fortunate to have the stable insight of Equanimity to house "my mistake".

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/5/11 6:36 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
dude, it happens. i thought i got it done too and was even talking about getting flown out to yale for that study and everything... then i realized, oh crap, it was a pce. i say "oh crap", like a pce is somehow "just" a pce. a pce is epic, so a 5 day pce must be really fucking epic. here's what's happened since my foot in my mouth moment... a couple weeks of really affecty business... and now i'm at a point where affect/mental tension basically just feels like a mild pressure headache sometimes. when my mind wanders it's caught quickly and it's automatically back to pce-like clarity, without quite being a full blown pce. right now blows what i thought was virtual freedom out of the water. having done this for a year or so, i can confirm it always incrementally keeps getting better and better. and if life keeps getting better and better, that's great for everyone. keep going, friend. the method stays the same the whole time. keep it as simple and pure to sensuousness as possible, is my only advice.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/5/11 6:49 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
A 5 day PCE is pretty good process. Keep going, keep paying attention. It's inevitable.
Awesome. Thanks Nick. That's about where I have been lately too. 2-5 days in, days out, days in...

Again, Tommy M, I have to re-iterate the power of this selfing experience points directly to what can be dissolved - that self that arises and attacks itself - can loathe itself, embarrass, etc. That self. yes, that guy. Dropping (à l'actualism) or dissolving (à la buddhism) that fabricating, fabricated self is a powerful à la carte dessert ticket. A friend asked me about my own 2-weeks-ago-personally-formed-misery, "I just wondered what was your motivation for that." At first that burned, then that led to questioning, then that led to a lot of weight off. So, whazzyermotivation for the dude that attacketh versus the dude abides.

And, to be redundant in multiple threads, I liked the "Khajjaniya Sutta: Chewed Up" translated by Thanissaro. Being chewed up by fabricated thoughts. And, the Dharmapada...ok, I will repeat this one, too...you know, Verse 1, Choices: wearewhatwethinkwithourthoughtswecreatetheworldeyjafjallajökull*



*I just like that word.

[edit: hyperlink]

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/5/11 7:03 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Tommy M:

Again, I apologize for whatever confusion or misunderstanding I may have created by being a blabbermouth arsehole.


No harm done at all. You were speaking the truth as you saw it, and you still are. I was inspired when I thought you got there, but not in any way discouraged by this latest news. Sounds like Nick is right, it's just a matter of time and it doesn't even matter how long. Let it takes as long as it takes and enjoy the ride.

-- John F

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/5/11 7:09 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Tommy, no worries. Sharing our experiences, and in particular, sharing the ways that we've fucked up our assessment of our experiences, can only be a helpful thing for everyone involved, readers included. Transparency is good.

I wonder if these things are more definitive signs of AF:

1) Temporary cognitive dysfunction upon the attainment

2) Immediate access to 9th jhana

Did your previous experience involve either of these?

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/5/11 7:19 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Tommy,
No harm done... to anyone.
You're disappointed, I would be too. You'll be there soon.
Relax, breath, smile! emoticon
Brian.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/5/11 7:26 PM as a reply to Brian Eleven.
Thanks for sharing all this - the more we know the better! 5 days is pretty amazing. I await the next post emoticon

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/5/11 8:01 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Tommy M:

It's taken some serious examination and painful investigation for me to get to the point where I can stand up and admit to this gargantuan fuck up, even though when posting from the actual world I stated that it wouldn't be a problem if I was wrong. The fear of being seen as foolish, issues of pride, worrying about having to argue[2] with people or apologize for misleading people...all of these bullshit, empty fears still propagating the very thing I thought had been seen through for the last time.

First off, no worries on my end Tommy, your claim probably helped my practice. I've been a bit more relaxed about the actualism method since then, not trying as hard to "get somewhere." Also, its good to know that even in the later stages of VF, the self still shows itself utterly toxic.

Tommy M:

On the upside, there is no doubt left about AF and how worthwhile it is. For five days, I lived in Heaven and still there are flickers of the wonderous actual world cutting through this comparatively drab affective experience. To be a feeling being is to be utterly fucking insane, there is nothing, literally nothing, more worthwhile, sensible, useful, practical, wonderful and perfect as living in the actual world.

Yes! I'm so excited! emoticon

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/5/11 8:01 PM as a reply to bill of the wandering mind.
Cool thread!

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/5/11 8:58 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Yar! Not only doing it but getting it done! Who will be next?

A question:

Tommy M:
The previous five days had been a long PCE, but it had been so clean and stable [1] that any thought about it coming to an end was met with laughter.


I had the impression that it wasn't perfectly clean? Like you had moments of 'less' and then moments of pure apperception? It didn't sound like a PCE to me. Can you go into more detail as to what it was like? And what does 'it' ending mean if it wasn't always pure apperception? (What is difference between now and the more-fuzzy moments?)

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/5/11 10:37 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Get back on the happy train mate.

Your honesty is what paves the way for others, so cheers from all those who come after -unless of course I land it this afternoon, in which case you can eat my dust...

By the way I would love to here you swear in your scottish brogue, I've had "paya-motherfucking-attention" ringing through my head for the last couple of days since your post on HP. I try and spin it with a Billy Connelly accent and it gets funnier, but doesn't get me paying attention though, just wondering about why you speak harshly to yourself?

Perhaps that very thing is what snapped you back? Perhaps any harshness in the mental dialogue triggers the switches, i.e. some level of mind goes 'oh, we want to be upset do we?, we can do that way better with a few feelings, let's just plug this back in and that and whammo- POP, let's get it on!' -back with all the affective tools to do a real good job of it and feel nice and bad about feeling 'back' to boot.

Don't know...

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/5/11 11:34 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Related informations:

RESPONDENT: On the other, it could be kind of a downer to consider having been apparently actually free (PCE) for nearly 5 months and then back to virtually free (I assume VF).

RICHARD: Oh no, not a downer at all – quite the obverse – and her exact words to me at the time were that she was excellent. Vis.:

‘I am emailing to say that a feeling has arisen in the solar plexus. Apart from that I am excellent and have had a truly wonderful four months and 28 days living in absolute pristine perfection’. (Monday 31 March 2008).

In subsequent face-to-face conversations she has reported being even more keen than ever before ... which is quite understandable when you think about it.

RESPONDENT: Yes I see. She now knows she can live that selflessness for extended periods and she can remain in excellence back on her way to that destination. Ha, human pessimism must run deep for me to have even considered this situation a possible ‘downer’.

RICHARD: To have lived ‘a truly wonderful four months and 28 days’ in ‘absolute pristine perfection’ experientially removes absolutely any doubts whatsoever that it be (a) not possible for her personally and (b) not liveable for both practical and interactive purposes and (c) not possible/ not liveable for each and every human being alive today on this planet.

Consequently, she now has that oh-so-essential ‘magic elixir’ in munificent abundance ... in a word: destiny



http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/listdcorrespondence/listd12.htm




SUBSCRIBER NO. 19: Congrats Peter and Vineeto. Immensely great news.

How do you know that this is a permanent thing and not just a PCE – or in other words how is it different than 5-month PCE lady ... what gives it the stamp of permanence?

VINEETO: I know it by the way it happened. A PCE used to happen inadvertently – all of a sudden the identity had slipped into abeyance and there the world was sparkling and clear and free from affective perception. In my later PCEs I always knew that they would fade, as they had done in the past and that the identity would return to where ‘I’ had been before. Sometimes I could glean valuable information from the PCE, sometimes it was just a wonderful encouraging reprieve from being ‘me’ but whenever the identity reverted to normal transmission ‘I’ knew that ‘I’ still had a job to do – I had not yet arrived.

The ‘stamp of permanence’, as you put it, is clearly evident in the way it happened. In the Announcement I have given my report of the events that preceded the final event and it was clear to me that ‘I’ was approaching my final hour. I had never ever experienced that preceding a PCE. When the last bit of identity slipped quietly away, expressed by my sentence ‘we have all the time in the world’, there was such a remarkable stillness that I knew with certainty that IT had happened. I did not ask Richard, what he thought – I told him what had happened. I was particularly amused that the event took Richard by surprise as he had experienced none of the magical events that had happened in the two stages before Peter became actually free. (see (R) Footnotes in the Announcement.

In the chat that followed I made some further observations of what had changed in a quite remarkable manner – as I have already described in my emails before. The whole event was so un-PCE-like in its finality that the thought that this could be a PCE never ever occurred.


http://actualfreedom.com.au/directroute/19.htm

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/5/11 11:51 PM as a reply to James Yen.
fwiw, your comment that the switch flipped for you when you saw that every sensate experience was clouded by affect encouraged me to anchor my attention on feeling and broaden it to sensuousness as often as possible. And this has been very positive for me so far.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/6/11 1:25 AM as a reply to Jon T.
Yeah, since my first long (54-hour) PCE last Summer when Tarin was here, I have had about 5 periods that were long enough to make me seriously think I had finished it up, the longest of which was about 4.5 days. I know exactly how exceedingly convincing they can be, particularly when they weather sleep cycle after sleep cycle, which PCE's usually don't, except when they do. Luckily, I had a lot of experiencing making the same mistake for arahatship, so have slowly gotten more cautious as the years go on. Apparently there is one guy who had a 6 month PCE, so we had better take a cue from that a realize that waiting a bit is probably in order when we think it is done.

One way or the other won't be the first or the last to make the same mistake, as it is so compelling when it happens and so such a natural and easy one to make.

At least we are having fun!

Daniel

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/6/11 6:56 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
It's amazing what the brain can do. I wonder if it's possible to expand on the AF experience and have PCE's while asleep, just a curiosity. Do you think that would be possible? From my vantage non-PCE point I see the whole reality permeated by a shadowy darkness, and I mean everything, including you, your cat, the furniture and the building blocks of your house. That's probably the Psyche, it looks as if a giant octopus unloaded its ink unto this dream island of a planet. I have only a scant idea for explaining a PCE, it is probable that the all-permeating psychic darkness temporarily leaves an individual's system, ergo that individual enters the actual world, aka paradise. That's not a sufficient explanation however, in the sense that the all encompassing, all-permeating shadowy darkness still exists within the world of subjects and objects excluding the individual(s) experiencing a PCE. That simply doesn't make sense. How can you experience the actual world when the real world is a dark shadowy reality, sort of a psychic swamp? It might be a case that the pure, clean and pristine (plus various other attributes and properties of the) consciousness experience known as the PCE are projected unto the outside by that old wizard, the brain, thus the often mentioned actualist comment that there is no outside to perfection, that any separation is illusory, generated by the alien entity known as the self. When that entity disappears, you're simply left with the brain's projection of a reality, a bare awareness that is perfect and peerless and intimate for it is your body that experiences it. My point is that what is called the actual world is simply a projection of an absence of a psyche in the individual concerned and has nothing to do with the objective properties of the world outside, also known in non-new age hippie circles as the world as it is, red in tooth and claw, a predatory prey circuitry of a circus. You're intimate with yourselves, not with me or some hard-headed business man or woman. You're living in your own easily generated reality, your beliefs and (mostly borrowed) opinions marketed as facts included. Jut my two cents in, it's Sunday afternoon, and I surprised myself patronizingly smiling on the regurgitated ineptness and inanities parading as practical and down-to-earth advice and experiencing exchange. Aren't you people capable of anything original? the WOW factor is completely missing on this forum.

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11/6/11 11:04 AM as a reply to Marius K.
I read your post 3 times through came to a wide range of alternating conclusions with no firm resolution of which was more likely:

1) Tongue in cheek humor
2) Schizophrenia
3) Drugs
4) Some other set of factors I couldn't fathom

What are you looking for on this forum and which of the above was it, if any?

Daniel

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/6/11 11:28 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
You might want to check Marius' past posts for more info on what angle he/she may be coming from.

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11/6/11 7:45 PM as a reply to Marius K.
Marius K:

My point is that what is called the actual world is simply a projection of an absence of a psyche in the individual concerned and has nothing to do with the objective properties of the world outside, also known in non-new age hippie circles as the world as it is, red in tooth and claw, a predatory prey circuitry of a circus. You're intimate with yourselves, not with me or some hard-headed business man or woman. You're living in your own easily generated reality, your beliefs and (mostly borrowed) opinions marketed as facts included.


It seems to be mainly Richard who insists on the 'actuality' of the AF experience.

The others seem to be more flexible / pragmatic / cautious / politic, treating it as "the end of suffering" rather than the discovery of an absolute reality.

John

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11/7/11 3:40 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Luckily, I had a lot of experiencing making the same mistake for arahatship, so have slowly gotten more cautious as the years go on.


I assume that this cautiousness is the reason you haven't really wrote anything about your practice lately.
May I still ask how it is unfolding for you, without drawing any absolute conclusions or being ok with something that may change?

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11/7/11 4:59 PM as a reply to Yadid dee.
Rooting for you, mate. I respect your honesty and rigour, which help me keep to the middle way in my personal practice.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/7/11 5:05 PM as a reply to Yadid dee.
Yeah,

Those who have been paying attention to the various stock indices (Dow, S&P 500, Nikkei, FTSE, etc.) recently will note a dizzying, nearly nausea-inducing volatility, with near record-setting gains and losses depending on the timeframe you view it through. While one might hope to speculate that there was a general trend towards something, the day to day and moment to moment of it would make that perspective less valuable.

I am taking that last bit as my general take on my practice and just working with each little bit as best I can, realizing that while I might speculate on a general trend, as investors know, you just get in the market, keep your money in it, and try not to be too thrown by the day to day changes, as you are likely to do the wrong things: sell when low, buy when high, and in general get stressed out by the fact that one doesn't see a nice steady line of 10% annual growth when viewed from a daily perspective (assuming that myth actually holds up to reality testing, which, when adjusted for actual, rather than US federally-computed inflation, it doesn't).

I realize that comparing my practice to the stock market might make it sound less interesting and fun and rewarding than it i, as it has been very interesting and rewarding, but the basics of the analogy hold, and so, for the moment, I am not writing much, as it is so likely to be as rapidly out of date as news about the Greek bailout finally going through just a week or so ago is now.

It is a bit ironic that, while I run a public forum for people to discuss their practice, I myself have generally kept about 95% of my practice details to myself.

I will say this: I continue to be intrigued by some tensions between some of the traditional models (Buddha's with powers, Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep in which lucid dreaming is taken as primary path and lucidity is maintained all night in clear light at the final stages) and the models in which those with AF don't dream, sleep little but without any consciousness at all and couldn't have any powers or jhanas. It is causing some debate about practice angle and emphasis at this time, but that is all good, and I have no good ideas at this time of what to do with all that, so just throwing that out there as one interesting point. Just as in my youth when I started all this, lucid flying dreams and traveling continue to call with a weird potency and there is something very deeply compelling about them.

Daniel

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11/7/11 6:16 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Just as in my youth when I started all this, lucid flying dreams and traveling continue to call with a weird potency and there is something very deeply compelling about them.

lust for immaterial rebirth?

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11/7/11 6:38 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Sure, you could slice it that way, and I have considered that those bits of theory may have value, but is that all that it is?

Can these things be so easily and definitively dismissed?

Are we so sure that disparate models don't hint at possibilities that can be attained?

Why would AF people drink, do drugs such as THC and other things, smoke, etc., which they do, in fact, actually do?

What of those of us whose "drugs of choice" are the clean ones (dreams, powers, traveling and extended abilities and unusual experiences born of strong concentration, mental agility, natural inclination and talent without any altering substances ingested at all) get shortchanged and need it be so necessarily?

Something very deep within me rebels against this and there lies the conflict.

Have I watched too much Harry Potter? Am I some naive fool? Perhaps, but...

The more practice I do, the more elaborate, lucid and fully-formed my dream life becomes. Is it really true that it will continue to go in that direction and then, at one sudden moment, cut off all that in one radical and surprising reversal of direction, like some giant bait and switch?

Perhaps at that point I won't care, but then again, why the frequent substance use in some of the AF kids if there is no interest anymore in extended and unusual experiences, and would they be better off from a health point of view if they did in fact have jhana and powers and lucid dreams as clean options rather than things that can negative health impact, cost money, and some of which are illegal? Some deep idealism within me finds this all so off-putting, and I have had the hardest time convincing myself it is otherwise.

There stands the dilemma. Anyone got anything on this?

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/7/11 7:50 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Perhaps at that point I won't care, but then again, why the frequent substance use in some of the AF kids if there is no interest anymore in extended and unusual experiences, and would they be better off from a health point of view if they did in fact have jhana and powers and lucid dreams as clean options rather than things that can negative health impact, cost money, and some of which are illegal? Some deep idealism within me finds this all so off-putting, and I have had the hardest time convincing myself it is otherwise.


I'd love to hear the "AF kids" themselves on this one. what happened to your statement about "no need for jhanas" in PCE-mode that I recall from the hurricane ranch conversation?

Can these things be so easily and definitively dismissed?

Are we so sure that disparate models don't hint at possibilities that can be attained?

Why would AF people drink, do drugs such as THC and other things, smoke, etc., which they do, in fact, actually do?


you're bringing some info to the table that I at least have no information on

from my perspective this appears to be either a misunderstanding or the end of the world... hehe.

just to be clear, i don't give a holyshitgoddamn about whether or not you can become harry potter, just whether actual freedom is truly a state of the permanent and totalending of becoming, desire, stress, drug (of any kind) dependence, dependent origination... you know, that stuff.

p.s. i'm thinking of a number between one and ten

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/7/11 7:09 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Sure, you could slice it that way, and I have considered that those bits of theory may have value, but is that all that it is?

Can these things be so easily and definitively dismissed?

Are we so sure that disparate models don't hint at possibilities that can be attained?

Why would AF people drink, do drugs such as THC and other things, smoke, etc., which they do, in fact, actually do?

What of those of us whose "drugs of choice" are the clean ones (dreams, powers, traveling and extended abilities and unusual experiences born of strong concentration, mental agility, natural inclination and talent without any altering substances ingested at all) get shortchanged and need it be so necessarily?

Something very deep within me rebels against this and there lies the conflict.

Have I watched too much Harry Potter? Am I some naive fool? Perhaps, but...

The more practice I do, the more elaborate, lucid and fully-formed my dream life becomes. Is it really true that it will continue to go in that direction and then, at one sudden moment, cut off all that in one radical and surprising reversal of direction, like some giant bait and switch?

Perhaps at that point I won't care, but then again, why the frequent substance use in some of the AF kids if there is no interest anymore in extended and unusual experiences, and would they be better off from a health point of view if they did in fact have jhana and powers and lucid dreams as clean options rather than things that can negative health impact, cost money, and some of which are illegal? Some deep idealism within me finds this all so off-putting, and I have had the hardest time convincing myself it is otherwise.

There stands the dilemma. Anyone got anything on this?


Who says you can't try to develop the powers after AF? Because someone said you can't? Because they can't? Is someone who is AF become conditioned to believe certain things (through their experience or 'views') and thus not attempt to develop certain things they consider to now be impossible?

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/7/11 7:26 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Infinitely variable universe with plenty of time...sure it can be done, just maybe not by this generation...or maybe you guys will crack it open...be sure to send a post card.

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11/7/11 7:40 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:


There stands the dilemma. Anyone got anything on this?


...at this point, only that I can relate. When we bring things like very convincing, clean moments of sidhi-like perceptions into the mix, or the kind of crisp simple clarity of apperceptive experiencing in dream or sleep states, and the implied potential of literally 24/7 apperceptive clarity in all neurophenomenal states, then it's inevitable that questions and dilemmas will come up. I bet though as usual these questions will always and ever seem suspect to folks who have no personal experience with something like seemingly irrefutable extrasensory experience or convincing tastes of the natural state in sleep and or dreams, which is completely understandable.

Considering what's become of Pragmatic Dharma 1.0 dogmas and taboos with the actualist revolution and the benefit this has brought in terms of opening up the practice horizons of so many practitioners, it seems it would be a shame to close down again around questionable interpretations of the ontological and cosmological implications of PCEs and AF. Just as a simple example, apperception is often described in terms of bare attention at the point of contact in the six senses. But the "six senses" is an abstraction, or at least, an arguable way of categorizing experience. Modern neuroscience seems to count balance and motion as separate senses, for instance. Sharks perceive magnetic fields, bats have echolocation, etc etc.

It's worth noting in this regard that Richard for instance seems to employ a very western notion of natural/supernatural dualistic ontology, and then categorizes the supernatural as pure fantasy-- feeling-fueled imagination, as opposed to nature-- sensate apperception. Indian, Central and East Asian ontology doesn't work that way though: without any uncreated creator god, the Buddhists and Taoists could just throw all those experiences into the Nature category. There's just Nature--- and it's so fucking big and deep that one species is just not too damn likely to be perceiving it in an exhaustive way, and the potentials are far beyond our narrow habitual reality-tunnels :-) But we do suffer when we are ignorant about the basic nature of our experience.

Everything about my contemplative history, every extrapolation I could make from that pertaining to the for-me-theoretical-yet End of Suffering, suggests that there is no entering or leaving Nature/Universe, that this body-mind is indeed Nature experiencing itself, and that the appreciation of this fact directly releases suffering (which latter is the exact same as the lack of appreciation of this). Yet none of that very same experiential evidence suggests to me that such realization is incompatible with many possible modes of experience in addition to seeing, hearing, tasting, touch, smell, kinaesthesia, balance, cognition, etc.

--Jake

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/7/11 7:49 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
First I want to say to Tommy that I hope you continue to post.
Your responses to my posts have been very helpful and sincere, and I appreciate your perspective on things.
Besides, this board is for all of us that are trying to make progress along a path and I, for one, need help from those that are a bit further along.

With regards to the lucid dreaming and astral projection stuff. I too have had more powerful "dreams" (including the reincarnation of my older brother who passed away about ten years ago. I think I know where he is living now.)

But I don't think you need to be even a stream enterer to have those sorts of things. Perhaps they can happen more easily if your are (but I wouldn't know because I haven't reach stream entry yet, but I've had all the lucid/astral and other stuff for years and years.)
So I don't think that they are "signs" of progress. And I don't think they are things that should be striven for. That wouldn't be the reason for following the Path.

Correct me if I am wrong about the following....
At stream entry you know in your mind that there is no "self" and you've cut the first three fetters, wrong view (of self), doubt and belief that rituals can purify or get you further along the path. But then you would still have to deal with the other fetters.

And then Once Returner has maybe reduced the sensual desire (greed) and ill will (hate) to a minimum but still has to deal with it but greed is more like a preference and hate is more like annoyance?

Then Non Returner has eliminated ill will and sensual desire and craving for material existence but still has a craving for non-material existence.

And I don't know about Arahant other than an Arahant would have overcome even the desire for immaterial existence.

Namaste
-Gerry

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/7/11 8:23 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
I do snort chuckle when I read AFers say things like "benevolent and benign universe'. I could have told them that...but that's not the point, is it? It's not that I know that 'that which helps' is real, but that I perceive and 'me and that' dichotomy.

The question is better put, can a finite, limited intelligence answer infinite eternal questions? Is there a point at which the universe has a central organisation (a self) which can answer questions asked?

If there is truly 'benevolence and benignity' as the universal bedrock, yet not central elements, then there is only perception and individualistic faith that ones own perception is significant.

In the mean time we have 7 billion critters, called humans, fucking each other over in the most thorough ways they can come up with.

I for one am not impressed with super powers beyond there usefulness in stopping the insanity of being human. When we can simplify the Progress of AF Insight (!) down to a weekend course, I will think that something significant has been done.

If it is just buzzes, lights and flying we may as well get on the 'shrooms.

To summarise, AF is good, but not the bananas pyjamas yet. When it (freedom from self) is a part of human childhood development; that is- to grow out of 'sorrow and malice' at an age when it would be of maximum usefulness to do so (i.e. before reproductive age) then I think it would be appropriate to take the pedal off the metal and chill in whatever manner we deem worthy of our limited life spans. Like perhaps chilling out in medical labs sorting out the whole limited life spans trip instead of fighting wars over oil, for example...

My 2c, keep the change...

emoticon

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/7/11 8:47 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
Daniel M. Ingram:
Sure, you could slice it that way, and I have considered that those bits of theory may have value, but is that all that it is?

Can these things be so easily and definitively dismissed?

Are we so sure that disparate models don't hint at possibilities that can be attained?

Why would AF people drink, do drugs such as THC and other things, smoke, etc., which they do, in fact, actually do?

What of those of us whose "drugs of choice" are the clean ones (dreams, powers, traveling and extended abilities and unusual experiences born of strong concentration, mental agility, natural inclination and talent without any altering substances ingested at all) get shortchanged and need it be so necessarily?

Something very deep within me rebels against this and there lies the conflict.

Have I watched too much Harry Potter? Am I some naive fool? Perhaps, but...

The more practice I do, the more elaborate, lucid and fully-formed my dream life becomes. Is it really true that it will continue to go in that direction and then, at one sudden moment, cut off all that in one radical and surprising reversal of direction, like some giant bait and switch?

Perhaps at that point I won't care, but then again, why the frequent substance use in some of the AF kids if there is no interest anymore in extended and unusual experiences, and would they be better off from a health point of view if they did in fact have jhana and powers and lucid dreams as clean options rather than things that can negative health impact, cost money, and some of which are illegal? Some deep idealism within me finds this all so off-putting, and I have had the hardest time convincing myself it is otherwise.

There stands the dilemma. Anyone got anything on this?


Who says you can't try to develop the powers after AF? Because someone said you can't? Because they can't? Is someone who is AF become conditioned to believe certain things (through their experience or 'views') and thus not attempt to develop certain things they consider to now be impossible?


Well put, and that was pretty much what I was getting at in my long winded and winding way. Why shut down the possibilities now at this point in the evolution of this community, when some major dogmas have been blown out of the water? Perhaps because of how AF has been presented it is believed that such experiments would actually be impossible in that condition, so it would be interesting to hear from anyone who has a strong claim to AF and also has some experience with these issues.

It certainly seems that people with a materialist bias are often attracted to actualism and the goal of AF (although, they are not the only ones, to be sure, and as this bias characterizes our culture, they are also attracted to buddhism and other paths and interpret them in those terms). But there's nothing about the PCE as far as I can experientially discern that gives any kind of indication of what happens after death or what sorts of experiences are pure fantasy and what are perceptions, except that the mode of experience in which a sense of being interposes itself in the middle of the simplicity of sheer contact, which mode is never actually a perception but merely is imagined(as there is never actually anything interposing itself in that simplicity). Although I will say that notions like ultimate safety and benevolence of Universe do make sense to me in the context of that mode of experiencing, and I'm not questioning them so much, but that's another story I guess.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/7/11 9:07 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:

There stands the dilemma. Anyone got anything on this?


What exactly is it that you hope to gain from AF that is preferable to (or isn't available via) continuous exploration, mastery and transcendence?

John

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/7/11 9:48 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:

Who says you can't try to develop the powers after AF? Because someone said you can't? Because they can't? Is someone who is AF become conditioned to believe certain things (through their experience or 'views') and thus not attempt to develop certain things they consider to now be impossible?


In a dream anything can happen, everything is possible and plausible. Time and space do not exist. Upon an insignificant background of real life events the imagination spins and weaves new patterns; a blend of memories, experiences, pure inventions, absurdities and improvisations.
- August Strindberg's introductory notes for A Dream Play

nick, if you're willing to share, what types of dreams (if any), do you have now?

in waking life i have been very prone to daydreaming ever since i can remember. it's fairly clear that any of these fantasies is directed towards my own desires, thus they seem to have limits dependent upon particular identity and personality idiosyncrasies that are more dominant at the time. and yes, there is an illusion of control to them, not just viewing this from the angle that the self fabricates them, but also to the end that the self draws the fantasy out to a certain point at which the daydream concludes.

i never much followed the sleepdream analysis circuit, but i do find the absurdity of dreams interesting. for me, they have always been way more unhinged than daydreams and do not seem to be working out anything in particular (unless they are and i'm ignorant of that). the imagination tends to run free, temporarily rid of the conscious mind's laundry list or mores and norms. i don't know then, what concludes these dreams or what sets their limits.

so, considering the point of conclusion/limits for both day and sleep dreams, the discussion in this thread about limits is interesting. for an af person, without the identity intact and no desires for dreams to be aimed towards or work out, i wonder where their dreams may go. (many af people would probably say that this is the exact reason dreams are not possible for them - nothing for dreams to spring from, nothing for dreams to be directed towards). it's possible they are having dreams they don't remember, or it's possible they're just not having them at all. it's possible it is really impossible, or it's possible there is some sort of mindblock preventing them too. who wants to test it out?

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11/7/11 11:45 PM as a reply to John Wilde.
John Wilde:
Daniel M. Ingram:

There stands the dilemma. Anyone got anything on this?


What exactly is it that you hope to gain from AF that is preferable to (or isn't available via) continuous exploration, mastery and transcendence?

John


Given the existence of AF, how could anyone now proceed, with any confidence that they are not wasting their time, to pursue "continuous exploration, mastery and transcendence"?

"What exactly is it that you hope to gain from AF" :- hope = desire, imagination, speculation, faith. Whereas Actual Freedom is actually about the expectation of permanently being in what you already know as the PCE.

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11/7/11 11:53 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:

Who says you can't try to develop the powers after AF? Because someone said you can't? Because they can't? Is someone who is AF become conditioned to believe certain things (through their experience or 'views') and thus not attempt to develop certain things they consider to now be impossible?


Are you playing devils' advocate?

You're not seriously suggesting "someone who is AF", and "conditioned to believe " belong in the same sentence?

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11/8/11 12:17 AM as a reply to John Mitchell.
One thing to clarify about what I wrote...

As to substance use, my basis for that is the following:

Richard in his journal goes on and on about how his friends should smoke and it was dumb for them not to.

I remember a quote from Stef about "you can still have your wine and your weed" and extrapolated from that.

I know that Tarin smokes cigarettes occasionally as well.

Just to clarify, I am was not writing some large decrying of AFers in general, just saying that these things happen at whatever level, and their happening at all is interesting.

Daniel

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11/8/11 1:20 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
One thing to clarify about what I wrote...

As to substance use, my basis for that is the following:

Richard in his journal goes on and on about how his friends should smoke and it was dumb for them not to.

I remember a quote from Stef about "you can still have your wine and your weed" and extrapolated from that.

I know that Tarin smokes cigarettes occasionally as well.

Just to clarify, I am was not writing some large decrying of AFers in general, just saying that these things happen at whatever level, and their happening at all is interesting.


Smoking a cigarette? Having a drink? Smoking weed? Man, if these trivial, trivial things trouble ('interest') you to any extent whatsoever, you'd flip if you knew half of what there is to know about certain "AF people". (Remember old Bill Hamilton's treatise on "Saints and Psychopaths"?)

All I can say is, no matter how much you might respect and admire certain "AF kids", do not take any claims about the nature of AF on trust.

John

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11/8/11 1:45 AM as a reply to John Mitchell.
John Mitchell:
John Wilde:
Daniel M. Ingram:

There stands the dilemma. Anyone got anything on this?


What exactly is it that you hope to gain from AF that is preferable to (or isn't available via) continuous exploration, mastery and transcendence?

John


Given the existence of AF, how could anyone now proceed, with any confidence that they are not wasting their time, to pursue "continuous exploration, mastery and transcendence"?

"What exactly is it that you hope to gain from AF" :- hope = desire, imagination, speculation, faith. Whereas Actual Freedom is actually about the expectation of permanently being in what you already know as the PCE.


A lot of what one says depends on one's preconceived stance, John M. You've made your own position very clear already. You said you didn't care whether Richard was stark raving mad even after his attainment of AF. First you tried to dismiss the whole thing by quibbling about dates, then you found out you were wrong and deleted the post, but it made no difference to your opinion anyway. That, frankly, tells me all I need to know about where you're coming from... so, knock yourself out.

The question I asked was specifically intended to clarify the exact nature of Daniel's dilemma. (Maybe he'll consider it privately if not publicly).

John

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/8/11 2:12 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
One thing to clarify about what I wrote...

As to substance use, my basis for that is the following:

Richard in his journal goes on and on about how his friends should smoke and it was dumb for them not to.

I remember a quote from Stef about "you can still have your wine and your weed" and extrapolated from that.

I know that Tarin smokes cigarettes occasionally as well.

Just to clarify, I am was not writing some large decrying of AFers in general, just saying that these things happen at whatever level, and their happening at all is interesting.

Daniel


maybe i should refrain from posting this because i'm not any of these people and can't speak for them. but, i can speak from my experience being raised in a judeo-christian society (the u.s.)... here we're guilted from a very young age at school, church, etc. to not do drugs because they're morally wrong. further guilted that if we so much as take a single hit from a joint we might wind up a drug addicted prostitute on the streets or death row criminal. so then, the usage of drugs (possibly ties in with alcohol, & cigarettes, but possibly less so) for af people might be more of an abandoning of their guilt trips about moral codes than anything else.

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11/8/11 5:39 AM as a reply to John Mitchell.
John Mitchell:
Nikolai .:

Who says you can't try to develop the powers after AF? Because someone said you can't? Because they can't? Is someone who is AF become conditioned to believe certain things (through their experience or 'views') and thus not attempt to develop certain things they consider to now be impossible?


Are you playing devils' advocate?

You're not seriously suggesting "someone who is AF", and "conditioned to believe " belong in the same sentence?


Yes. I am serious.

Richard, due to his unique-to-him 'enlightenment' experience which he seemed to assume was 'full enlightenment' (the very same one Gotoma Siddhattha supposedly experienced), was obviously (to me) conditioned by this self-evaluation (IMO an error in self-diagnosis) to rail against all spiritual 'enlightenment' traditions including the Buddhist teachings (of which I myself still find immense value, at least of the pali canon) to create his '3rd Alternative'. Due to this very same self-evaluation of having been 'fully enlightened', he thought himself to be the first in the world to transcend 'full enlightenment', and still seemingly holds this 'belief/view'.

I have had a very Theravadan upbringing. I don't think about the shifts I've had exclusively as this stage or that stage pertaining to the AF path but more so with the fetter model of the pali canon. It suits this mind/body organism's personality, first hand experience and manner of seeing the world.

Richard had his beliefs,views and take on things conditioned by his experience and his own evaluation of such an experience. My take and angle has been conditioned by my own past Theravadan leanings and my evaluation of my own experience. Each to his/her own conditioned beliefs/ideas/notions/views/self-evaluations.

AFers can't be wrong in your opinion, John?

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11/8/11 6:01 AM as a reply to Steph S.
What is interesting to me is not that they do whatever but why, given the interesting descriptions of what AF is, does, eliminates and gives access to.

I am not talking from some sort of Protestant or Catholic guilt place, though I can see the mechanism of guilt-elimination you propose as being a reasonable explanation, nor am I even asking questions about morality from a secular humanist point of view, nor am I concerned with the legality or illegality or anything like that. I doubt that most of the people I know who are or may be AF are coming from some place like that either.

In that it is routinely described as perfection, risking things that might be detrimental to one's health or welfare would seem a needless risk.

Given that they describe it as an optimal mind state, altering it and presumably spending money to do so would seem superfluous.

Given that they say that addiction is impossible in AF, then why use things like tobacco, which basically are all about the nicotine (a known potent carcinogen among other things, not counting the bad things in smoke in general) and basically to relieve cravings from addiction and get some relatively trivial buzz while doing known and potent damage to one's body (just one day in my emergency department is all it takes to see what it leads to)?

It is simply that the recreational outlets that they have chosen are one's I find personally unattractive and they ones that I prefer (such as traveling, lucid dream stuff, etc.) they say AF makes impossible, except for the odd caveat:

Jeffrey Martin, a diligent researcher of various persons who claim to have attained some sort of spiritual transformation/enlightenment/etc. seems to think, if rumor serves, that one gets what one optimizes for if one does that optimizing well enough. Thus, the question remains: AF with powers possible? AF with dreams and traveling possible? We will just have to see...

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11/8/11 6:27 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:


Jeffrey Martin, a diligent researcher of various persons who claim to have attained some sort of spiritual transformation/enlightenment/etc. seems to think, if rumor serves, that one gets what one optimizes for if one does that optimizing well enough. Thus, the question remains: AF with powers possible? AF with dreams and traveling possible? We will just have to see...


Why not? Why limit the possibilities via just another 'belief' that it isn't possible? Enough with the glass ceilings!

P.S. I don't do illicit drugs nor smoke cigarettes and haven't for some time. My wife would kill me and plus I have no urge to ever do so. I see no benefit for myself. I do eat too much bread though. **pats tubby ponch**

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11/8/11 6:37 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:

The more practice I do, the more elaborate, lucid and fully-formed my dream life becomes. Is it really true that it will continue to go in that direction and then, at one sudden moment, cut off all that in one radical and surprising reversal of direction, like some giant bait and switch?


That's interesting. I find whenever "being" is present that it has a characteristic very similar to dreaming. So much so that I have the view that "being" is kind of a dream which one has while awake. A sort of vibratory layer that shifts and chases stuff around, a layer that can be intentionally manipulated.

Can actual freedom or even a PCE happen while that thing is still there?

Why is your dream life becoming more elaborate and fully formed? Since you are lucid during the dream, can you choose to practice paying attention to the senses (your body laying down, for instance) instead of allowing the dream to become more elaborate and fully formed?

I don't think fully formed and elaborate dreams will be cut off in one radical and surprising reversal of direction, but could be cut off in one gradual and intentional reversal of direction. Why would you care to keep dreaming?

===

As for the something deep within you which rebels against the use of drugs by AF kids... You speak of AF people taking drugs as if they did so to compensate for the lack of dreams, powers, etc, but I don't see what one thing has to do with the other. I personally find it quite unremarkable that AF people choose to take drugs, or do other things that have a negative impact on health, cost money or are illegal. Why on earth do you find it off-putting? (you answered this)

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11/8/11 7:54 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:


Jeffrey Martin, a diligent researcher of various persons who claim to have attained some sort of spiritual transformation/enlightenment/etc. seems to think, if rumor serves, that one gets what one optimizes for if one does that optimizing well enough. Thus, the question remains: AF with powers possible? AF with dreams and traveling possible? We will just have to see...


It seems increasingly clear to me that when considering the questions this thread has veered towards, the most simple outlook to take is one that emphasizes neurophenomenal plasticity. Unless we know otherwise with irrefutable evidence, and that would be hard to come by given the complexity of the brain and the limits of our knowledge regarding it, then it seems safe to assume that if you find it desirable you can re-wire your brain (via repeatedly directing attention in the desired directions) to craft almost any kind of experiential baseline that you want. If the brain can do PCE (clear, clean appercieved contact) and the brain can do imagination, it seems like it could well do both at the same time if re-wired correctly (1).

Coming at these questions from a naive position in this regard makes it too easy for prior conceptual conditioning, expectations, and intellectual biases to create an interpretation of what is possible that merely reflects prior expectations and beliefs. And to those who are implying that a person who is AF is incapable of having intellectual biases when it comes to interpreting life, I suggest you really consider the basis of that belief in your own experience. From what we know about how language, for instance, works this position seems really naive. The value of the view of open neurophenomenal plasticity is that it starts out agnostic in regard to any possible state or trait of consciousness, rather than starting from a dogmatic position on what is possible. I think much of the resistance to this view probably comes from the understandable desire to have a "true way" to go in life, in which one's decisions are already made, and all one has to do is pursue one's goal with determination. That this could just be a psychological mechanism which itself optimizes a given brain to re-wire itself in a given direction should give one pause whenever one feels certain of how to proceed on the path when that certainty is based on a view about what is ultimately possible and desirable for all humans rather than what is desirable to oneself as a personal neurophenomenal goal.

(1) Of course, the brain is a concrete material-energetic flow with certain parameters, and it could in fact turn out that certain combinations are mutually exclusive due to quirks about how human brains tend to be wired. But generally speaking Western Modernity has been really slow to recognize states besides waking, dreaming and sleeping and it was (and still is in some academic circles although this increasingly stands out like a sore thumb) commonplace to assume that people like Shamans, meditators, mystics, and etc who reported states of consciousness outside of those three categories were literally lying/pretending/acting or in terms of contemplatives reporting changes in baseline traits of consciousness, simply being socialized to re-label their experience rather than actually changing how they experience things.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/8/11 8:17 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
This is an interesting thread. I'll just throw some thoughts into it in case they help anyone.

Dreams: I seem to have very few that I can remember nowadays, and they are generally much less interesting than before. (However, there are occasional exceptions.) It seems that inadvertant plot-based dreaming might totally cease at the end of the path...whether the experience corresponding to dreaming (sensory experience not corresponding to the external world) would cease or not is a different question, and I see no reason at this point to think that it would happen. Perhaps it would manifest as exceedingly generic imagery, such as colors. Perhaps one interested in lucid dreaming could do all kinds of things with it.

Jhanas: I can access jhanas just fine; but, these jhanas are not the kind that I learned from MCTB or the kind that most people in the pragmatic community seem to practice. To recognize that I could access jhanas required that I re-work my idea of what concentration was and what a jhana was. This form of jhana matches the similes in the suttas quite well, but generally does not match what MCTB says. As every component of these jhanas are actual, I see no reason to think that access to these would cease. However, I cannot access the form of jhana that MCTB describes (nor would I want to).

Powers: There have been a few times during which I have experienced internally-generated sense-experiences in context of extremely strong concentration. These kinds of experiences are very surprising in terms of their "real-ness". They are not phenomenologically similar to imagination or anything that happens in the mind's eye. I consider those experiences to be what powers consist of. As they are not affective, I see no reason to think they won't stick around forever (if I were interested in pursuing them). However, it seems to me that AFers don't know about them for the same reason AFers disclaim access to jhanas...namely, they have not re-thought what concentration means, and experimented with alternative-to-MCTB forms of it.

Drugs: The suttas say that arahants pursue jhana for a pleasant abiding in the here-and-now. As I consider sutta-style arahantship to be what lies at the end of this path, I am not surprised (on a doctrinal level) that an AFer who has not figured out jhana might be interested in drinking or smoking or whatever. Neither am I surprised on a theoretical level...it does not surprise anyone that someone who claims AF might choose to listen to music (for example) because they enjoy it, so why is it more surprising that they would choose to smoke because they enjoy it? (Whether they have misanalyzed the cost-to-benefit ratio is a separate issue, and I also see no reason that AFers shouldn't be able to make decisions that are ill thought-out by others' standards or even by their own.)

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11/8/11 8:10 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:
That's interesting. I find whenever "being" is present that it has a characteristic very similar to dreaming. So much so that I have the view that "being" is kind of a dream which one has while awake. A sort of vibratory layer that shifts and chases stuff around, a layer that can be intentionally manipulated.


Indeed.

My experience of (what I thought were) powers in the past, pertained to this kind of experience. Same for the kind of jhana that AFers disclaim.

However, as I said in my previous post, there are modes of experience relating to powers / jhana which appear to be completely independent of this 'being' daydream, if one knows how to find them.

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11/8/11 8:28 AM as a reply to End in Sight.
wow EiS for me that totally resolves this issue. the suttas do state that (sutta-style) jhana remains a pleasant abiding, and that sense contact is still a form of impurity.

this conversation has led me only to more faith in da buddha

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11/8/11 8:48 AM as a reply to End in Sight.
End in Sight:
Dreams: I seem to have very few that I can remember nowadays, and they are generally much less interesting than before. (However, there are occasional exceptions.) It seems that inadvertant plot-based dreaming might totally cease at the end of the path...whether the experience corresponding to dreaming (sensory experience not corresponding to the external world) would cease or not is a different question, and I see no reason at this point to think that it would happen. Perhaps it would manifest as exceedingly generic imagery, such as colors. Perhaps one interested in lucid dreaming could do all kinds of things with it.


I have very generic dreams or no dreams at all. I have never been a big dreamer. I go to sleep and open my eyes and it's morning. I don't remember many if any of any dream i may have.

Jhanas: I can access jhanas just fine; but, these jhanas are not the kind that I learned from MCTB or the kind that most people in the pragmatic community seem to practice. To recognize that I could access jhanas required that I re-work my idea of what concentration was and what a jhana was. This form of jhana matches the similes in the suttas quite well, but generally does not match what MCTB says. As every component of these jhanas are actual, I see no reason to think that access to these would cease. However, I cannot access the form of jhana that MCTB describes (nor would I want to).


Ditto.

Powers: There have been a few times during which I have experienced internally-generated sense-experiences in context of extremely strong concentration. These kinds of experiences are very surprising in terms of their "real-ness". They are not phenomenologically similar to imagination or anything that happens in the mind's eye. I consider those experiences to be what powers consist of. As they are not affective, I see no reason to think they won't stick around forever (if I were interested in pursuing them). However, it seems to me that AFers don't know about them for the same reason AFers disclaim access to jhanas...namely, they have not re-thought what concentration means, and experimented with alternative-to-MCTB forms of it.


There are subtler and subtler layers to what is perceived via apperceptive awareness that are now obvious, available and accessible if I know how to look that I didn't see previously. I know not where cultivating these subtler and subtler layers of apperception will take me. I am open to possibilities.

Here are some instructions I got from an advanced yogi on developing the powers. It would seem quite logical these instructions could be put into action by someone who is apperceiving at all times.

As I recall, without looking it up, the central aspect of the paths to power practices have to do with opening up perception right at the point of contact. So a very ready example would be to take something like a piece of fruit or a sandwich or something and sit down with it taking very slow and methodical bites, chewing and swallowing very slowly and, as with vipassana noting practice, to note very carefully and deliberately each sensation and the subtle differences in sensation from one moment of sense contact to the next.

The next step in the practice would then be to take each of these moments of sensation and to split the perception into two phases. First of all, note the momentary sensation and classify it as either pleasant, neutral or unpleasant. Secondly invert the perception of the same sensation, so if the moment of sensation is initially perceived as pleasant, then invert the impression, noting how, in some manner, the same sensation may also be perceived as unpleasant. This may take some time to develop a facility for or it may be something you can develop quite quickly, you'll simply have to go at it and see how it goes.

The final step in the process is combining the two, the perception of the pleasant and the perception of the unpleasant at the same time. It is also good to work with the neutral perceptions as much as possible as it is in the neutral perceptions that there tends to be a lot of failure to attend to what is arising and passing. Consciousness tends to overlook the neutral because it simply doesn't represent anything either desirable or undesirable to the mind or the senses. Often times it is in the neutral perceptions that some of the subtler kinds of perception lie hidden, so this can open up new ranges of perception that were previously below the threshold of attention.

What I would expect you will discover and explore with the use of these techniques is that quite a lot about sense impressions, feeling states, thought objects, consciousness qualities and so on are actually much more fully open to conscious modification than you may have previously thought. It can be rather interesting to be experiencing something that has always presented itself as largely or entirely pleasant as something largely or entirely unpleasant.

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11/8/11 9:16 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
Here are some instructions I got from an advanced yogi on developing the powers. It would seem quite logical these instructions could be put into action by someone who is apperceiving at all times. (...)


I am far from experienced with the powers due to disinterest and the lack of an appropriate environment to cultivate maximum concentration, but I found this to be a useful "introductory" exercise:

1) Generate an exceedingly high amount of concentration in a rupa jhana. The only experience in a rupa jhana that indicates how much concentration one has generated is the strength of the jhana factors (as there is no actual perception of "absorption" or "concentratedness"). In jhana 1 or 2, for example, the body should experience a very high amount of bodily pleasure (think "high-dose opiates"), and there should be basically no discursive thinking.

2) From that level of concentration, access an arupa jhana. Reflect afterwards on how external sensory experience is cut off in that experience, unlike in the rupa jhanas.

3) Remaining in whatever rupa jhana you like (but perhaps jhana 4 is best?), concentrate as much as possible with the idea that external sensory experience can be cut off and replaced by some kind of powers experience.

Perhaps this is more of a "proof of concept" than a good way to learn the powers...either way, it is informative.

This is best done when one knows exactly what the sutta jhanas are (rather than the "absorption" jhanas), or when one is no longer able to access the "absorption" jhanas. Without either of those being the case, the instructions I've given and the experiences I've described may not be correctly understood.

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11/8/11 11:32 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
I read your post 3 times through came to a wide range of alternating conclusions with no firm resolution of which was more likely:

1) Tongue in cheek humor
2) Schizophrenia
3) Drugs
4) Some other set of factors I couldn't fathom

What are you looking for on this forum and which of the above was it, if any?

Daniel


I am not looking for anything in particular or overly specific. I am generally interested in consciousness, intelligence, integrity and understanding and their various ramifications that most of the time get so awfully mixed up with the products of our more devious traits. I tend to currently view this forum as a platform where most of the input, as of today, is pre-set and pre-loaded thanks to the various spiritual doctrines taken onboard by the post-spiritual, (neo)-actualist people posting their verbosity here, most of the discussions taking place at a subjective level (thoughts, feelings, impressions, etc.). I cringe for objectivity and also wonder why on earth aren't you completely discarding the spiritual viewpoints and practices altogether given the fact that actualism and spirituality have zilch in common? It makes reading for an awful mix, if I were to use an analogy from the animal kingdom, it is something of a cross in between an ostrige and a camel. I'm not quite sure if that is even edible.

As you are the owner and moderator, please make up your mind: iconocalstic 100% which implicitly means you'll have to use actualism as per dick definition or anything else as in anything goes, which is not equivalent or even congruent and totally dissimilar with nothing really matters. I'm writing this as 'form' is of the utmost importance, given the wrong form one enters a crime process and ends up in hell, letting the correct and concise form act its magic (per instance HTFDIEUH?), one enters paradise Do you have anything personally to loose, as in income derived from teachings, spiritual arhatanship credentials, etc?

1) for sure, 3) as in DallMayr coffee and Kent Long cigarettes plus 4) a whole range of factors that you might eventually fathom given the correct prism. To make things easier, a wild card in all probability.

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11/8/11 4:07 PM as a reply to John Wilde.
John Wilde:
John Mitchell:
John Wilde:
Daniel M. Ingram:

There stands the dilemma. Anyone got anything on this?


What exactly is it that you hope to gain from AF that is preferable to (or isn't available via) continuous exploration, mastery and transcendence?

John


Given the existence of AF, how could anyone now proceed, with any confidence that they are not wasting their time, to pursue "continuous exploration, mastery and transcendence"?

"What exactly is it that you hope to gain from AF" :- hope = desire, imagination, speculation, faith. Whereas Actual Freedom is actually about the expectation of permanently being in what you already know as the PCE.


A lot of what one says depends on one's preconceived stance, John M. You've made your own position very clear already. You said you didn't care whether Richard was stark raving mad even after his attainment of AF. First you tried to dismiss the whole thing by quibbling about dates, then you found out you were wrong and deleted the post, but it made no difference to your opinion anyway. That, frankly, tells me all I need to know about where you're coming from... so, knock yourself out.

The question I asked was specifically intended to clarify the exact nature of Daniel's dilemma. (Maybe he'll consider it privately if not publicly).

John



John

You are confused, I don't delete my own posts, you must be thinking of someone else.

So again - Given the existence of AF, how could anyone now proceed, with any confidence that they are not wasting their time, to pursue "continuous exploration, mastery and transcendence"?

Anybody?

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11/8/11 4:31 PM as a reply to John Mitchell.
John Mitchell:

You are confused, I don't delete my own posts, you must be thinking of someone else.


I still have it in my inbox.

Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 13:19:55 +0000 (GMT)

John

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11/8/11 5:11 PM as a reply to Marius K.
Marius K:
I cringe for objectivity


Clearly, if anyone is in dire need of objectivity, it is you.

I think the discussion level on this forum is simply pathetic, taking into consideration this thread general characteristics as the average. I shouldn't be surprised though for the pursuit of actual freedom is basically a franchise type of endeavour, not leaving much room for individual creativity or originality, the work of art of an 110 IQ repetitive individual. What boils down to in the end is a do it yourself self-help thing that achieves 'success' by undoing the self. And 'success' means becoming an obsessive compulsive freak fixated on undoing the social conditioning to the cent and, for the hardcore participants, the instinctual one. It's a circular process, you cannot escape the snake biting its tail analogy. You people here have shifted focus from pursuing the Bomb, aka Enlightenment, to chasing the void, longing to become nothingness, non-entities, with a brainwashed brain in control and a libido-free sex life, orgiastic fantasies not included in the deal. I have serious reservations that Richard has successfully undone all his instinctual conditioning. Two things spring to mind: power and sex. He is not free from the instinctual root of power as he practically demonstrated at the MSV Actualis Captain elections. Instead of going for a democratic vote, with multiple individual choices, the initiates propped him up as the ship's Captain, probably with backing from the ship's financing team, Tom and Pamela. Real world at its best. I feel sorry for Vineeto as she had to forgo her intially correct common sense/integrity appraisal of the situation because she would have been implicitly ostracized from the only social circle she enjoyed and the lifeboat lifestyle it promised. That communal living thing, with non-nuclear couples living together in sweet harmony, sexually liberated probably (the author doesn't make that very clear as it is the inner circle he's talking about), naked as in with nothing to hide, seems to me grotesque. Is anyone's business if I want to keep some things private or prefer a nuclear type sexual relationship? Out from control indeed. That guy simply committed suicide, killed the male-identity based Self. That avenue is closed. PERIOD. No other male identity on this Terra Cognita will be able to get enlightened in aeons, ever. He is a murderer for he killed and buried Love. The only avenue still open for enlightenment is via a female identity. He simply could have exited the enlightened state if he didn't find it satisfactory. He was under no duress to remain in that exalted state of being, yet because of what he did, we, as a species, are poorer. The earnest moderator on this forum had no other choice but to pursue actual freedom as the enlightened avenue was blocked, done, finished. I am not discussing the PCE attributes, it is a wonderful experience. I'm simply denying the actualist claim as being the best. It is simply the experience of the 5th dimension, Eternity. You have to become a zero to experience that, sort of a dead man, psychologically speaking of course. That fool though that the PCE is higher in its inner essence/characteristics than the direct experience of the 6th dimension, the Nous. Enlightenment is simply one's human id (the informational essence of what one is) experiencing without any blockages or intermediaries the 6th dimension. I had to get through the wall in order to correct what that fool did. I first got enlightened via a female id and then I reestablished contact with the 6th by going into the 7th dimension with my male id. The problem was that Satan was the master of the 7th dimension, I will not delve into what happened there. I entered back into the 6th via the motor function and reconnected it to the 5th, Eternity. I couldn't do it all on affect so I had to partially do it on the motor function. The question I want you to ask yourselves is: where can suicide, no matter the type, can lead to? I answered this question to myself and my answer is simply that one kills his own id, the only structure that withstands death and thus can be informationally developed over multiple lifetimes. It is not (only) the instinctual passions that Richard eliminated, and that is debatable, he simply killed his own id and became a zero. Development is no longer possible for him, it might be the reason why he thinks he reached the zenith of human achievement, no human, not even in a million years, can surpass his permanent condition... that's the rationale behind his claims. I wrote this long post not in order to endorse enlightenment, which I view it as but a state/condition part of a large repertoire of possible states achievable by a human, but to make it a viable option. I personally experienced it, I liked it, yet I've chosen to pursue other development avenues, sort of an humming bird approach. It's not a question whether enlightenment is flawed or not, or our normal waking state sucks or not, these are simply states that can add or subtract to the general quality of experience, cognitive, emotional, motor, instinctual. It is the developmental needs of the id, which is not the psychological or instinctual entity known as the self, that requires constant sustenance in order to develop its informational and experiential capacity, sort of itsdaily bread.


That's quite a goulash of caustic opinion, bizarre fantasy, and misdirected angst you're cooking up.

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11/8/11 5:47 PM as a reply to #1 - 0.
#1 - 0:
Marius K:
(...) I have serious reservations that Richard has successfully undone all his instinctual conditioning. Two things spring to mind: power and sex. He is not free from the instinctual root of power (...)


That's quite a goulash of caustic opinion, bizarre fantasy, and misdirected angst you're cooking up.


And yet, in the midst of it, he nails it. In some ways, he's closer to the mark than anyone else here.

John

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11/8/11 5:56 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
John Mitchell:
Nikolai .:

Who says you can't try to develop the powers after AF? Because someone said you can't? Because they can't? Is someone who is AF become conditioned to believe certain things (through their experience or 'views') and thus not attempt to develop certain things they consider to now be impossible?


Are you playing devils' advocate?

You're not seriously suggesting "someone who is AF", and "conditioned to believe " belong in the same sentence?


Yes. I am serious.

Richard, due to his unique-to-him 'enlightenment' experience which he seemed to assume was 'full enlightenment' (the very same one Gotoma Siddhattha supposedly experienced), was obviously (to me) conditioned by this self-evaluation (IMO an error in self-diagnosis) to rail against all spiritual 'enlightenment' traditions including the Buddhist teachings (of which I myself still find immense value, at least of the pali canon) to create his '3rd Alternative'. Due to this very same self-evaluation of having been 'fully enlightened', he thought himself to be the first in the world to transcend 'full enlightenment', and still seemingly holds this 'belief/view'.

I have had a very Theravadan upbringing. I don't think about the shifts I've had exclusively as this stage or that stage pertaining to the AF path but more so with the fetter model of the pali canon. It suits this mind/body organism's personality, first hand experience and manner of seeing the world.

Richard had his beliefs,views and take on things conditioned by his experience and his own evaluation of such an experience. My take and angle has been conditioned by my own past Theravadan leanings and my evaluation of my own experience. Each to his/her own conditioned beliefs/ideas/notions/views/self-evaluations.

AFers can't be wrong in your opinion, John?


I wonder what your experience of belief is? Experientially, for me, it's nature is the patterned movement of emotion that moves away from, and makes impossible, the experience of the pristine stillness of the PCE.

Belief is no more possible for a permanent PCE state, than Catholicism is possible for my cat.

My understanding is that for "the powers" to be developed, requires the psyche/self to exist, yes?

quote from AFT website

=====
RESPONDENT: One would expect a certain energy field.

RICHARD: The affective faculty – the entire psyche itself – is eradicated: I have no ‘energies’ ... no power or powers whatsoever. There is no ‘good’ and ‘evil’ here in this actual world.
=====


You say "Richard" "unique-to-him" "seemed to assume" etc, etc - you make lots of conjectures, put words in his mouth, perhaps Richard could confirm directly, Otherwise conjecture is a waste of time.

"Richard had his beliefs,views and take on things conditioned by..." - did you mean "I (Nikolai) have a belief/opinion/conjecture that Richard had his beliefs,views and take on things conditioned by....."? or do you have direct knowledge that "Richard had his beliefs,views and take on things conditioned by..."

"AFers can't be wrong in your opinion, John?"

Now I am having words put in my mouth for me. To be clear, belief is a movement of emotion not possible in the PCE. So no, they can't be wrong where wrongness is based on having a belief. Anyone can be wrong in trivial matters of second-hand information, or faulty memory.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/8/11 6:21 PM as a reply to John Wilde.
John Wilde:
#1 - 0:
Marius K:
(...) I have serious reservations that Richard has successfully undone all his instinctual conditioning. Two things spring to mind: power and sex. He is not free from the instinctual root of power (...)


That's quite a goulash of caustic opinion, bizarre fantasy, and misdirected angst you're cooking up.


And yet, in the midst of it, he nails it. In some ways, he's closer to the mark than anyone else here.

John



The mark I thought we were aiming at is the end of suffering, and "nailing it" in my book would be outlining a way to achieve it expediently. Or am I missing something? I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm actually curious.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/8/11 6:25 PM as a reply to #1 - 0.
#1 - 0:

The mark I thought we were aiming at is the end of suffering, and "nailing it" in my book would be outlining a way to achieve it expediently. Or am I missing something? I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm actually curious.


OK, what I meant by "the mark" is understanding the true nature of "actual freedom", as manifest in Richard, which seemed to be the main theme of Marius' post.

John

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/8/11 6:52 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Hey Tommy,
Having read both of your posts, I would suggest the first was the more harmless of the two. Compared to the clarity and perfection you were apparently experiencing in the first post, the second post with grandiose statements like: "I can stand up and admit to this gargantuan fuck up" seem to be more driven by emotion and flavored with the activity of a "self" than the supposed "gargantuan fuck up."

Enjoy yourself, and feel free to post. I think there is plenty of allowance for people to make mistakes on this discussion board.

And by the way, congrats on an awesome PCE.

- Daniel

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/8/11 7:06 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:

There stands the dilemma. Anyone got anything on this?


Hey Daniel,

Having read through Richard's posts on dreaming, I seem to remember that said he basically took it upon himself to eliminate dreams independent of his attainment of AF. It seems it was his personal preference to have deep dreamless unconscious sleep, and so he set about making that his everyday experience.

When I think about drugs and dreams, I think there could be an affective and a physical component to each. If you remove the affective component of lucid dreaming, what would you get? Would it still be so enticing? If it's the affective part of lucid dreaming which you enjoy, then it may be worth investigating? If it's simply the physical experience of body sensations, vivid imagery, sounds, etc. then perhaps it could be experienced in a clear and affect-free way? It seems this could be an experiment which could be conducted without having to attain AF first.

- DJ

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/8/11 7:13 PM as a reply to John Mitchell.
John Mitchell:

Belief is no more possible for a permanent PCE state, than Catholicism is possible for my cat....

... So no, they can't be wrong where wrongness is based on having a belief.


Dude, don't look now but your Catholicism is showing. Infallibility of the pope anyone?

Who said 'wrong based on belief?'

Why the distinction?

I think Nick meant the plain ol' garden variety wrong. You know, like 'just plain wrong'.

Your faith based approach is plainly clear to anyone reading your remarks, though my comments here are simply to point out that with a bit of circumspection you will see it for yourself.

There is many paradoxes in the universe of human experience, that Richards point of view is both valuable and flawed at the same time is one of them.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/8/11 8:16 PM as a reply to Andrew ..
Andrew Jones:

There is many paradoxes in the universe of human experience, that Richards point of view is both valuable and flawed at the same time is one of them.


Spot on. The trick is to very carefully extract what is valuable.

I know I must come across as a real prick in this forum, but so be it; it's a price I'm willing to pay to convey the message that you just can't rely on the promise that AF (freedom from 'self', freedom from affect) automatically obviates the need for sila and careful self-criticism.

It doesn't, and the belief that it does leads to some very unpleasant consequences.

For those who care only about eliminating their own suffering at whatever price, it might be a reasonable option. But for those who are attracted to actualism for altruistic reasons, unfortunately it is not as simple as it might once have seemed.

John

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/8/11 8:21 PM as a reply to John Wilde.
Anyone who has a grain of sense, be brave enough to question your own 'idols'.. no matter how much you respect or admire them as individuals, no matter how intelligent, sincere and knowledgeable they seem, no matter how experienced they are. Don't take a word of it on trust... and be willing to rigorously question what the PCE shows you too.

That said (for the umpteenth time), I'm out of here.

John

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/8/11 9:50 PM as a reply to John Mitchell.
I wonder what your experience of belief is? Experientially, for me, it's nature is the patterned movement of emotion that moves away from, and makes impossible, the experience of the pristine stillness of the PCE.


Hi John,

I still believe a few things and I haven't been able to generate any affect for the past 3 months.

I believe Richard made an error in self-diagnosis of what he termed 'full enlightenment'. I also have a belief that many in the pragmatic crowd have made errors in self-diagnosis concerning 'full enlightenment'. This is based on what I have read and rationalised and thought out. It is also based off of interpretations of my own personal experience of what has been termed 'full enlightenment' by some (MCTB 4th path) as well as interpretations of others' experience including AF claimants I've talked with.

Beliefs for me now are thoughts that are based off of either intellectual or experiential knowledge in my experience. Beliefs based on affective conditioning aren't arising anymore. But I still believe a few things which beg more proof for those beliefs to be seen as facts. I may be wrong about my beliefs. But I have thoughts that arise that say I am probably right in my assumptions about Richard. If proven wrong, I will change my assumptions and opinions.

These assumptions are based off of a variety of things. My own experience of what some have called 'full enlightenment' (MCTB 4th path) and what has happened since my last shift (supposedly AF). My beliefs are also conditioned by talks with other AF claimants and an ongoing reading of the pali canon suttas.

Belief is no more possible for a permanent PCE state, than Catholicism is possible for my cat.


I also believe that the PCE and AF is triggered by this following practice:

"Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Bahiya Sutta


My understanding is that for "the powers" to be developed, requires the psyche/self to exist, yes?


Your belief, yes. My current belief is sort of loose and open to the possibility that affect need not arise for the powers to be developed. I could be wrong but I am open to exploring possibilities. I don't believe I know everything there is to know and experience.

quote from AFT website

=====
RESPONDENT: One would expect a certain energy field.

RICHARD: The affective faculty – the entire psyche itself – is eradicated: I have no ‘energies’ ... no power or powers whatsoever. There is no ‘good’ and ‘evil’ here in this actual world.
=====


I don't consider Richard omniscient and all knowing. This is my belief. I do however appreciate his putting emphasis on apperception and cultivating of felicity, the sweet spot and HAIETMOBA. Apart from that, I leave all the other stuff aside. Pragmatic dharma, whatever works.

You say "Richard" "unique-to-him" "seemed to assume" etc, etc - you make lots of conjectures, put words in his mouth, perhaps Richard could confirm directly, Otherwise conjecture is a waste of time.


Yes, all based on just belief. Not based on nor conditioned by affect. This belief doesn't cause suffering. No agitation is arising. Just the thought that this thought is right. It could be wrong.

"Richard had his beliefs,views and take on things conditioned by..." - did you mean "I (Nikolai) have a belief/opinion/conjecture that Richard had his beliefs,views and take on things conditioned by....."? or do you have direct knowledge that "Richard had his beliefs,views and take on things conditioned by..."


No. It is a belief based on the things I've mentioned.

"AFers can't be wrong in your opinion, John?"

Now I am having words put in my mouth for me. To be clear, belief is a movement of emotion not possible in the PCE. So no, they can't be wrong where wrongness is based on having a belief. Anyone can be wrong in trivial matters of second-hand information, or faulty memory.


Yes, that is your belief conditioned by your interpretation of your experience. My own experience of 'belief' is a little different nowadays. Easily changed when presented with evidence to the contrary. But those thoughts of how things are or aren't still arise. Apperceived beliefs. They don't cause suffering though like before. I have been wrong from time to time about beliefs, even post last shift (supposedly AF).

Nick

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/9/11 4:25 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Just dropped in to say that this thread has taken a really interesting turn, it's great to hear more discussion on this and particularly examining how stuff like the powers can be accessed post-AF. That's something I originally considered unlikely, but now I can see some interesting possibilities for exploration in this territory, perhaps rather an using absorption one now has easier access to that pre-conscious stage of the perceptual process where, and this is all speculation of course, the entire world of formations can be influenced?

No idea, but it's great how this thread has developed and thank you to everyone for their support.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/9/11 5:47 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Tommy M:
Just dropped in to say that this thread has taken a really interesting turn, it's great to hear more discussion on this and particularly examining how stuff like the powers can be accessed post-AF. That's something I originally considered unlikely, but now I can see some interesting possibilities for exploration in this territory, perhaps rather an using absorption one now has easier access to that pre-conscious stage of the perceptual process where, and this is all speculation of course, the entire world of formations can be influenced?

No idea, but it's great how this thread has developed and thank you to everyone for their support.


I'm really interested to hear about what you might discover about this once you get to AF. Previously I was pretty turned off by the idea of powers, mostly due to a friend who had some experiences that I considered harmful.. and in general I thought powers were probably very self-serving (although I suppose I can't entirely discount the fact that such explorations may lead to expository experiences about the nature of whatever self-serving aspects arise, but I won't go on about that right now).

My general rule of exploration has long been that things are fair game as long as the intent is not to harm yourself or others... so then, why limit the possibilities of consciousness with this in mind? It is amazing that perception is possible at all so why not "shake what yo' mama gave you" in this way... use the unfettered mind to whatever extent to figure out where and how far it can go. Who knows what sorts of cool things could be possible.. probably pretty infinite, no?

I probably won't try anything powersy until after AF because dipping into it right now could exacerbate affect (i.e. the knowledge that it may cause additional suffering by likely increasing affect means going forth with practices of this sort could indicate a pre-meditated/harmful intent towards myself).

So yeah, keep us posted!

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/9/11 6:17 PM as a reply to Steph S.
no more self = no more power.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/9/11 6:34 PM as a reply to #1 - 0.
#1 - 0:
no more self = no more power.



Proof?

Edit: Richard saying this and that is not proof.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/9/11 6:34 PM as a reply to #1 - 0.
to clarify, i'm not talking about power in the sense of hierarchy or grandiosity. i'm talking about what possibilities there may be to focus the unfettered mind in interesting and previously unexplored ways to see what attention/perception can tap into.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/9/11 6:35 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
#1 - 0:
no more self = no more power.



Proof?


i think that was a joke, no self = no power as in status

hence the rimshot smiley? could be wrong emoticon

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/9/11 6:37 PM as a reply to josh r s.
josh r s:
Nikolai .:
#1 - 0:
no more self = no more power.



Proof?


i think that was a joke, no self = no power as in status

hence the rimshot smiley? could be wrong emoticon


Went over my head. Sorry. It needs one of these ;-) to convey the joke. Without a ;-) it goes over my head.

;-)

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/9/11 6:49 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
As I recall, without looking it up, the central aspect of the paths to power practices have to do with opening up perception right at the point of contact. So a very ready example would be to take something like a piece of fruit or a sandwich or something and sit down with it taking very slow and methodical bites, chewing and swallowing very slowly and, as with vipassana noting practice, to note very carefully and deliberately each sensation and the subtle differences in sensation from one moment of sense contact to the next.

The next step in the practice would then be to take each of these moments of sensation and to split the perception into two phases. First of all, note the momentary sensation and classify it as either pleasant, neutral or unpleasant. Secondly invert the perception of the same sensation, so if the moment of sensation is initially perceived as pleasant, then invert the impression, noting how, in some manner, the same sensation may also be perceived as unpleasant. This may take some time to develop a facility for or it may be something you can develop quite quickly, you'll simply have to go at it and see how it goes.

The final step in the process is combining the two, the perception of the pleasant and the perception of the unpleasant at the same time. It is also good to work with the neutral perceptions as much as possible as it is in the neutral perceptions that there tends to be a lot of failure to attend to what is arising and passing. Consciousness tends to overlook the neutral because it simply doesn't represent anything either desirable or undesirable to the mind or the senses. Often times it is in the neutral perceptions that some of the subtler kinds of perception lie hidden, so this can open up new ranges of perception that were previously below the threshold of attention.

What I would expect you will discover and explore with the use of these techniques is that quite a lot about sense impressions, feeling states, thought objects, consciousness qualities and so on are actually much more fully open to conscious modification than you may have previously thought. It can be rather interesting to be experiencing something that has always presented itself as largely or entirely pleasant as something largely or entirely unpleasant.



Hi Nikolai,
I found this interesting but was unclear about the meaning of unpleasant in the above context. My question relates to understanding how 'unpleasant' would be determined without any affective faculty functioning. More specifically, what type of reaction to the stimuli would this unpleasantness be likely to cause in the absence of any conscious intervention.

Regards

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/9/11 7:10 PM as a reply to J A M.
J A M:


Hi Nikolai,
I found this interesting but was unclear about the meaning of unpleasant in the above context. My question relates to understanding how 'unpleasant' would be determined without any affective faculty functioning. More specifically, what type of reaction to the stimuli would this unpleasantness be likely to cause in the absence of any conscious intervention.

Regards


Hello JAM,

Vedana still arises for those claiming AF, at least those I've talked with as well as myself (if my last shift was AF) if we are considering vedana to be 'feeling tone' or even 'preference'. If my hand is burned by fire, there is unpleasant vedana. There are uniform vibrations felt throughout the body wherever there is living tissue which are quite pleasant. There are also sensations with neutral feeling tone. If you were burned while in a PCE, do you think there would be no recognition of physical pain? Shortly after the last shift, I burned my hand under hot water. The body's immediate reaction was to pull the hand away and put it underneath cold water. The burning unpleasantness was felt. But there was no mental anguish arising because of it.

Nick

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/9/11 11:52 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Hi Nick,

I can't find the reference you made to accessing a new type of Jhanas from your new state, though this really pricked my ears up...

I realise, for me at least, such detail is 'Satori Porn', but I think there is usefulness in discussing it anyway. That is, if what you are experiencing lines up better with the suttas, then perhaps what Bhante G has said all along; pre-symbolic..pure awareness (PCE) is the base line for developing insight, should be looked at differently. I keep rereading Mindfulness in Plain English and keep thinking I'm reading this wrong. I'm not getting something important here. I'm assuming too much perhaps that I know something he doesn't..but reading your explorations make me think that there is definitely a massive blind spot in how I'm perceiving the instructions.

I keep finding similarities in the AF instructions that line up with Bhante G's method, beyond the controversial bits. e.g Peters instructions to Intentially provoke the onset of PCE go as such;



Peter
When an actualist fully commits to the business of becoming free of the human condition – i.e. when he or she decides to make becoming happy and harmless the most important thing in their life – this commitment marks the beginning of a process specifically designed to focus one’s attentiveness to the workings and nature of a human psyche in action, one’s own psyche. This on-going attentiveness to how am I experiencing this moment of being alive in itself generates revelations, realizations and fundamental changes that are the very provocations that guarantee the onset of PCEs...
To use your terminology, if you deliberately, with due forethought, make a total commitment to set about to poke holes in your own ‘constant ‘feeling reality’’, then something’s eventually got to give. And when a hole or crack does appear, then almost seamlessly the pure and perfect actual world of the senses appears if by magic – and as it does you immediately recognize that it is always here, was always here and has always been here. And as you ponder on the nature of a PCE you become aware that a pure consciousness experience only happens when ‘I’ am temporarily in abeyance.
.



Bhante G

Mindfulness is a subtle process that you are using at this very moment. the fact that this
process lies above and beyond words does not make it unreal -- quite the reverse.
Mindfulness is the reality which gives rise to words -- the words that follow are simply
pale shadows of reality. So, it is important to understand that everything that follows here
is analogy. It is not going to make perfect sense. It will always remain beyond verbal
logic. But you can experience it. The meditation technique called Vipassana (insight) that
was introduced by the Buddha about twenty-five centuries ago is a set of mental activities
specifically aimed at experiencing a state of uninterrupted Mindfulness.....

Mindfulness is the observance of the basic nature of each passing
phenomenon. It is watching the thing arising and passing away. It is seeing how that
thing makes us feel and how we react to it. It is observing how it affects others. In
Mindfulness, one is an unbiased observer whose sole job is to keep track of the constantly
passing show of the universe within. Please note that last point. I
n Mindfulness, one
watches the universe within. The meditator who is developing Mindfulness is not
concerned with the external universe. It is there, but in meditation, one's field of study is
one's own experience, one's thoughts, one's feelings, and one's perceptions. In meditation,
one is one's own laboratory. The universe within has an enormous fund of information
containing the reflection of the external world and much more. An examination of this
material leads to total freedom


It would be interesting to hear form Ross as well, I just read he spent 6 months at Bhante G's monastery?

edit: bold type.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/9/11 8:24 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
J A M:


Hi Nikolai,
I found this interesting but was unclear about the meaning of unpleasant in the above context. My question relates to understanding how 'unpleasant' would be determined without any affective faculty functioning. More specifically, what type of reaction to the stimuli would this unpleasantness be likely to cause in the absence of any conscious intervention.

Regards


Hello JAM,

Vedana still arises for those claiming AF, at least those I've talked with as well as myself (if my last shift was AF) if we are considering vedana to be 'feeling tone' or even 'preference'. If my hand is burned by fire, there is unpleasant vedana. There are uniform vibrations felt throughout the body wherever there is living tissue which are quite pleasant. There are also sensations with neutral feeling tone. If you were burned while in a PCE, do you think there would be no recognition of physical pain? Shortly after the last shift, I burned my hand under hot water. The body's immediate reaction was to pull the hand away and put it underneath cold water. The burning unpleasantness was felt. But there was no mental anguish arising because of it.

Nick


You used the word 'preference' above. I would be inclined to make a further distinction between personal or individual 'preference' and the bodies innate tendency to avoid physical damage or death. In your experience does personal or individual 'preference' have any relevance to the sensation being perceived as unpleasant?

Regards

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/9/11 11:06 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
#1 - 0:
no more self = no more power.



Proof?




i don't know man. how can i "prove" something that can only be experienced in this particular consciousness?

this is actually a quandary i dealt with as i was transitioning from vipassana to af. there could be this amazing unexplored dimension in human experience, the seemingly magical affecting of the flow of experience to make crazy shit happen. and i toyed with this type of stuff for quite a while. it was "fun" in exactly the way that every other desire-based thing is "fun" - temporarily, and with a deeply sickening backside that comes replete with a full dose of existential suffering.

yet despite all my experimenting, the value and consistency of the "power" continued to elude me. until one day, i realized; all the uses of powers are based on desire, however subtle, and as long as you're playing around with it, the layers of subtlety are never-ending; indeed, they form loops upon loops.

playing with powers is chasing shadows no matter what tradition you're in. REAL power is being completely powerless; i would have thought such experienced yogis, so well-versed in the most mystical of mystic texts, would know this by now.



however, i am not AF, and i have been wrong way more times than i can count. maybe i'm totally off the mark. go ahead and try it and report back to us if your findings are entirely different; i, however, plan to stay away from "power" as much as possible.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/10/11 1:34 AM as a reply to #1 - 0.
Regardless of experience or theory or anything, and regardless of anyone else's notions that powers are uncool or whatever, that ridiculous crackling vibrant intensity and the extreme malleability of a full-on travel for me is about neck and neck with my very best PCE, I must say, and a really hyper-lucid flying dream with complete control of the flying is right up there also in terms of being simply awesome and feeling just so right, like things are completely they way they should be for those brief periods. The relationships between lucid dreams, full-on travels, and PCE's continue to intrigue me: same thing, different plane? This is just speculation.

I am not trying to sway anyone towards anything, and basically just in reporting mode at this point. No reason you should agree or that this should have anything to do with you or your practice if those things don't apply to you. I don't want to send anyone skittering off into some side track or anything like that.

Just keepin' it real and being honest.

I did a few hours of very Actualism-heavy practice this afternoon between naps between night shifts, and then when I went to sleep I had this remarkable flying dream where I rose up into this high-ceilinged elaborately crafted white octagonal room with mirrors and watched myself spin effortlessly about 15 feet off the floor with perfect reflections in the mirrors sparkling with clarity. The effects of both the AF practice with some brief PCE's during those few hours and the flying dream's amazing feeling of freedom and clarity appeal to me personally about equally. Idiosyncratic quirk? Residual spiritual immaturity? I am really on to something cool? Perhaps I will succeed in finding some fusion of the two, as that would suit me just fine.

Daniel

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/10/11 2:29 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
The relationships between lucid dreams, full-on travels, and PCE's continue to intrigue me: same thing, different plane? This is just speculation.


Perhaps I will succeed in finding some fusion of the two, as that would suit me just fine.


Have you tried lucid dreaming yourself into a PCE? Like use a preference you have for dream style, probably the one you are most skilled at...whether it be flying or whatever else, and see if you can incorporate the PCE into the plot of the dream.

Steph

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/10/11 6:42 AM as a reply to #1 - 0.
1-0: That's quite a goulash of caustic opinion, bizarre fantasy, and misdirected angst you're cooking up.

# There is nothing quite like the milk derived from your mother's breast, rich in all sorts of nutrients. As for bizarre fanatsies, wait until Richards novel hits the market place, the one concerning peaceful couples living on a pardise island. I'm sure it will get raving reviews from actualist affacionados. As for the type of angst I am suffering from it has everything to do with the Absurd, not sure you ever caught a glipse of that, to wit: the meaning of verything you do in your life is ultimatelyy flawed. Perhaps this all pervasive shaddiness and shiftiness arose from the fact that we turned, presumably a long time ago, the impersonal into personal.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/10/11 1:37 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Regardless of experience or theory or anything, and regardless of anyone else's notions that powers are uncool or whatever, that ridiculous crackling vibrant intensity and the extreme malleability of a full-on travel for me is about neck and neck with my very best PCE, I must say, and a really hyper-lucid flying dream with complete control of the flying is right up there also in terms of being simply awesome and feeling just so right, like things are completely they way they should be for those brief periods. The relationships between lucid dreams, full-on travels, and PCE's continue to intrigue me: same thing, different plane? This is just speculation.


This sounds like something that could be easy for you to investigate.

Is the attention wave exaggerated during these experiences?

If so, what phase of the attention wave are the good qualities of these experiences occurring during?

When I began looking at things in this way, it confirmed for me, without a doubt, that for any experience I was interested in looking at, all unpleasant qualities would be found during the affective phase of the attention wave, whereas all good qualities (if any) would be found elsewhere. Seeing this was directly beneficial for my own practice (apart from the ways in which it resolved my doubt).

Often I found that there are wonderful experiences in which the attention wave occurs, which are wonderful because the mind is somehow able to pay attention to the non-affective phase over the affective phase. Just because an experience isn't a PCE doesn't mean that its good qualities will be inaccessible upon AF; just because an experience isn't a PCE doesn't mean that its actual components can't be seen clearly.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/10/11 5:09 PM as a reply to Marius K.
Marius K:
1-0: That's quite a goulash of caustic opinion, bizarre fantasy, and misdirected angst you're cooking up.

# There is nothing quite like the milk derived from your mother's breast, rich in all sorts of nutrients. As for bizarre fanatsies, wait until Richards novel hits the market place, the one concerning peaceful couples living on a pardise island. I'm sure it will get raving reviews from actualist affacionados. As for the type of angst I am suffering from it has everything to do with the Absurd, not sure you ever caught a glipse of that, to wit: the meaning of verything you do in your life is ultimatelyy flawed. Perhaps this all pervasive shaddiness and shiftiness arose from the fact that we turned, presumably a long time ago, the impersonal into personal.



Um... oh. Ok. I'm not so clear on what exactly you're trying to tell me. I'm sorry. Could you help me?



As for the dreams - Dan, could you tell me a little bit about your process for instigating lucid dreams? Or do they occur naturally for you now? Does any part of the process seem to be rooted in desire at all? I'm extremely curious.

BTW, I am sorry if I'm coming across as rude to anyone. I think this forum is great and you guys are the cream of the crop as far as people willing to open up about their experiences with this stuff. emoticon

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11/10/11 5:30 PM as a reply to #1 - 0.
#1 - 0:
this is actually a quandary i dealt with as i was transitioning from vipassana to af. there could be this amazing unexplored dimension in human experience, the seemingly magical affecting of the flow of experience to make crazy shit happen. and i toyed with this type of stuff for quite a while. it was "fun" in exactly the way that every other desire-based thing is "fun" - temporarily, and with a deeply sickening backside that comes replete with a full dose of existential suffering.


What was your experience of powers like?

For what it's worth, I had many experiences in my life that had a clear apperceptive component as well as an affective component. The affective component was often quite literally sickening. Luckily, the affective component was never what I found valuable in the experience, so I was glad (a gross understatement if there ever was one) to learn that it could be removed. Not sure if your experience of powers is analogous (when I hear descriptions of powers, they often sound quite affective), but you never know...

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11/10/11 7:19 PM as a reply to End in Sight.
End in Sight:
#1 - 0:
this is actually a quandary i dealt with as i was transitioning from vipassana to af. there could be this amazing unexplored dimension in human experience, the seemingly magical affecting of the flow of experience to make crazy shit happen. and i toyed with this type of stuff for quite a while. it was "fun" in exactly the way that every other desire-based thing is "fun" - temporarily, and with a deeply sickening backside that comes replete with a full dose of existential suffering.


What was your experience of powers like?

For what it's worth, I had many experiences in my life that had a clear apperceptive component as well as an affective component. The affective component was often quite literally sickening. Luckily, the affective component was never what I found valuable in the experience, so I was glad (a gross understatement if there ever was one) to learn that it could be removed. Not sure if your experience of powers is analogous (when I hear descriptions of powers, they often sound quite affective), but you never know...



My experience of powers was generally of the affective kind, NOT anything in the sense field generally. During my early days of meditation, I often experienced interesting kaleidoscopic lsd-like hallucinations. Later on I started playing around with sigils and chaos magick, and experiencing intensely bizarre synchronous events, reading minds, perceiving emotions, etc. it seemed to have something to do with coming closer and closer to the present moment, i.e. the more i payed attention and dropped desire, the more weird things could happen, to the point where i basically wasn't really phased with it anymore. Also, the first time I crossed the A&P (while driving down the ohio turnpike at 75 mph emoticon) I experienced a brief but memorable moment where all my peripheral vision started breaking down into an awesome "The Matrix"-esque green-and-black energy field, and then i saw bright flashing lights and saw (what i thought were) atoms flying in front of my face.

I've heard other people talk about powers like going to other realms, seeing energy fields, and the famous old yogic things like levitation and all that, but I've never had experiences that strong. I used to lucid dream a lot. It was cool, not as intense as what Daniel speaks of, but interesting nonetheless.

And of course, there was that time I did DMT and talked to a hyperdimensional buddha made out of golden-rainbow-colored liquid love who shot me through a tunnel that killed me and then dissolved my consciousness in the white light of oceanic bliss. I don't think that counts though. D:

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11/10/11 7:37 PM as a reply to #1 - 0.
@#1-0: I have had lucid dreams and flying dreams throughout my life, but certain things make them more likely, such as drifting back to sleep after waking up, and also detailing the specifics of the sensations of my ordinary waking life: i.e. actualism-like practices. This is an old trick from the Traveling/OBE literature also. Inclination to them makes them more likely, but they occur frequently enough with no obvious inclination at all.

As to whether or not they are affective or actual, bound up in desire or emotion beyond what everything else is, that is at this point hard to say definitely which is which. How can one really and truly tell exactly which is which without having completed the thing? I find drawing some line there problematic. How can the affective not be the actual at some level, given that the affective is sensate and causal and empty and apperceptive? These fine points of division seem artificial as interesting as the question is, and yet something clearly is to be gained from asking it anyway.

Travels and lucid dreams have profound sensual qualities, rich details, compelling specifics. Often the whole point is the direct enjoyment of that mode of perception, that realm and its way of functioning, its unique causal possibilities. How is that extremely high level of direct sensate appreciation not related to actualism or just good practice in general? How is that profound degree of concentration not skillful? How can that immediacy lack merit? Given that there are clearly what for all the world feel like physical sensations in those modes, how can one be sure that the idealism that goes with flesh-and-blood focus doesn't equally apply? Given how compelling it is, and given that things being compelling points to something affective as well, is it necessarily so that noticing how those things are compelling is unskillful? Are they not some sort of opportunity instead to see affect the fluid, dramatic and significantly less censored way that dreams and the like allow?

It again seems deeply odd to me to negate, cut off, ignore, deny, split off or otherwise repress that mode of things, and something in me calls out for inclusion and expansion rather than something else. Can we really say "that is all delusion and nothing but a trap" and be utterly certain that it has no value for exploration or even simple recreation, not to mention interpersonal communication and the like.

It may be that in some months or years I look back and say, "What a young fool I was, how silly to make anything out of all that whatsoever, how happy I am to have no dreams at all, how nice that the night is just a perfect blank of mindless rest," but then again, perhaps not...

Daniel

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/10/11 7:38 PM as a reply to #1 - 0.
#1 - 0:
And of course, there was that time I did DMT and talked to a hyperdimensional buddha made out of golden-rainbow-colored liquid love who shot me through a tunnel that killed me and then dissolved my consciousness in the white light of oceanic bliss. I don't think that counts though. D:


Affective? Actual? A little of both?

Stuff like this seems to me to be at the crux of whether AF is compatible with powers. If you had AF while taking this drug, do you think there would be no experience like this?

(I don't know, but I'm going to speculate that there would certainly be some kind of sensory experience not corresponding to the external world...hence, the possibility of powers.)

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11/10/11 8:06 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
As to whether or not they are affective or actual, bound up in desire or emotion beyond what everything else is, that is at this point hard to say definitely which is which. How can one really and truly tell exactly which is which without having completed the thing?


Glossing over a bunch of details...I found that affective experiences only occur during one phase of the attention wave, i.e. the non-sensory phase.

Daniel M. Ingram:
I find drawing some line there problematic. How can the affective not be the actual at some level, given that the affective is sensate and causal and empty and apperceptive?


Rather than being sensate, I found that the affective is best described as "imaginary". Not in the sense of "unreal", but in the sense of "having experiential qualities akin to a daydream, as opposed to the senses". In fact, I would guess that anything that is as vibrant as you describe, is likely to be non-affective...hence my questions.

I have applied a great deal of dry insight to the matters of actual and affective experience, inspired ultimately by the precision and detail that you emphasize in MCTB with respect to the process by which one attains paths. What I have learned through that has been very valuable. I would be surprised if, trying the same, you did not also find out interesting and valuable things for yourself which could help your practice (and help to figure out what the nature of the experiences you report is).

EDIT:

Daniel M. Ingram:
Given how compelling it is, and given that things being compelling points to something affective as well,


I have often found that actual experiences are compelling, because (a split-second after they happen) there is a gross affective reaction which is the thing that compels...in other words, the actual experience compels causally by generating an affective experience which has the quality "desirable / compelling".

For example, I have always been attracted to music. And although I long had an affective reaction to it, and an affective desire to pursue it for that reason, it was never ultimately the affective reaction that I wanted, or the satisfaction of the affective desire...as I pared away my affective reaction to music, I found that the only worthwhile thing about it (which I would have recognized at any previous time) had been the way it sounded. But the better it sounded, the larger the affective reaction was..

So, it can happen that an experience is compelling because its actual component, being perceived by a mind that is in the habit of affectively reacting, gives rise to a strong affective reaction and desire. If the affective reaction covers up the actual experience, confusion about what is what, and what is done for what reason, can ensue.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/10/11 9:27 PM as a reply to End in Sight.
End in Sight:
#1 - 0:
And of course, there was that time I did DMT and talked to a hyperdimensional buddha made out of golden-rainbow-colored liquid love who shot me through a tunnel that killed me and then dissolved my consciousness in the white light of oceanic bliss. I don't think that counts though. D:


Affective? Actual? A little of both?

Stuff like this seems to me to be at the crux of whether AF is compatible with powers. If you had AF while taking this drug, do you think there would be no experience like this?

(I don't know, but I'm going to speculate that there would certainly be some kind of sensory experience not corresponding to the external world...hence, the possibility of powers.)



Sensory component was ridiculously actual, but not in a way i could focus on or grab hold of.
The affective component definitely influenced what appeared - always sharing similar characteristics, but variances in colors, textures, shapes, etc. the mood influenced quite a bit.

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11/10/11 9:48 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
How can the affective not be the actual at some level, given that the affective is sensate and causal and empty and apperceptive?


The theological problem of evil.

How does, in an actual universe, all the sick twisted shit actually happen?? Let alone how does anything happen at all.

Is functional harmlessness the same as having no will to harm?

What role does emotion play in the fractal infinitude of now? If it (emotion) is meant to be extinguished, who said so, and then we must consider how 'meant to be' implies an ultimate authority.


Can we trust the universe? What does that look like in practice?

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11/11/11 11:07 AM as a reply to #1 - 0.
1-0: Um... oh. Ok. I'm not so clear on what exactly you're trying to tell me. I'm sorry. Could you help me?

# You're about to become a technician of consciousness. It is what this forum is all about is it not?

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11/11/11 11:36 AM as a reply to Marius K.
Marius K:
1-0: Um... oh. Ok. I'm not so clear on what exactly you're trying to tell me. I'm sorry. Could you help me?

# You're about to become a technician of consciousness. It is what this forum is all about is it not?



If you could distill all your posts into something comprehensible like this, or - better yet - PRACTICAL and relevant to the thread, that would be rad. emoticon I don't have any beef, I just understand better if it's more straightforward.

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11/11/11 11:45 AM as a reply to Andrew ..
Andrew Jones: The theological problem of evil.

# Why add a theological twist to the problem of evil? Definition of Sin: that which is unnecessary.

Andrew Jones: How does, in an actual universe, all the sick twisted shit actually happen?? Let alone how does anything happen at all.

# All the sick twisted shit happens because all the twisted shit is metaphysical in nature, it belongs to imaginary dimensions of reality. And we're specifically talking about this planet for lack of accurate information about what is taking place in other parts of the universe. By being imaginary, these metaphysical dimensions are nevertheless real for their denizens. What is known as the Absolute for instance is nothing but an identity decoy for the true face of the Psyche. Here is a far-flung hypothesis: it is quite possible, if ET life actually exists, that they might have reached a stage so advanced in their development, in terms of computers modeling for instance, that would have permited them to hack into the informational component of the universe, and thus become capable of projecting the informational signature of these thinking machines into large chunks of the world these ETs lived in, thus creating a metaphysical field based on actual derived information and/or energy. We're just like monkeys with our efforts into this field, internet and all. It is quite possible that the Psyche is nothing but an eco derived product (belonging to the same product range as the hypothetical ET one) of ours and our ancestors lives, eg. the Akashic records. There is nothing more striking than to realize the full implications that we live 99.99999 per cent of our lives in an imaginary dimension. And the funny thing is that we don't seem to have a problem at all.

The probability as of today is that actualism is a process that allows one to make contact with the true/actual informational structure of the universe, described in words like purity, peerlessness, infinitude, perfection.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/11/11 12:02 PM as a reply to Marius K.
Marius K:
The probability as of today is that actualism is a process that allows one to make contact with the true/actual informational structure of the universe, described in words like purity, peerlessness, infinitude, perfection.

This seems to directly contradict your earlier post:
Marius K:
My point is that what is called the actual world is simply a projection of an absence of a psyche in the individual concerned and has nothing to do with the objective properties of the world outside


Which is it?

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11/11/11 12:50 PM as a reply to Andrew ..
Andrew Jones:
How does, in an actual universe, all the sick twisted shit actually happen?? Let alone how does anything happen at all.


I found it very useful, when considering this question, to take the approach of the theory of evolution. It completely gets rid of the "theological problem of [good and] evil" (that is why the church is so scared by it), and replaces it with a straightforward functional explanation of how things came to be as they are.

The theory that aliens have hacked into the informational structure of the universe is quite unnecessary, and can be done away through the use of Occam's razor.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/11/11 2:29 PM as a reply to Marius K.
Marius K:
Andrew Jones: The theological problem of evil.

# Why add a theological twist to the problem of evil? Definition of Sin: that which is unnecessary.

Andrew Jones: How does, in an actual universe, all the sick twisted shit actually happen?? Let alone how does anything happen at all.

# All the sick twisted shit happens because all the twisted shit is metaphysical in nature, it belongs to imaginary dimensions of reality. And we're specifically talking about this planet for lack of accurate information about what is taking place in other parts of the universe. By being imaginary, these metaphysical dimensions are nevertheless real for their denizens. What is known as the Absolute for instance is nothing but an identity decoy for the true face of the Psyche. Here is a far-flung hypothesis: it is quite possible, if ET life actually exists, that they might have reached a stage so advanced in their development, in terms of computers modeling for instance, that would have permited them to hack into the informational component of the universe, and thus become capable of projecting the informational signature of these thinking machines into large chunks of the world these ETs lived in, thus creating a metaphysical field based on actual derived information and/or energy. We're just like monkeys with our efforts into this field, internet and all. It is quite possible that the Psyche is nothing but an eco derived product (belonging to the same product range as the hypothetical ET one) of ours and our ancestors lives, eg. the Akashic records. There is nothing more striking than to realize the full implications that we live 99.99999 per cent of our lives in an imaginary dimension. And the funny thing is that we don't seem to have a problem at all.

The probability as of today is that actualism is a process that allows one to make contact with the true/actual informational structure of the universe, described in words like purity, peerlessness, infinitude, perfection.




That actually made things a lot clearer. I see (i think) what you're trying to say. What about this then:

A lot of my exploration of consciousness has been involved in the role of words and language in perception. In my first PCE (the post-dmt one), I instantly "knew" for the first time how words were overlayed onto reality by the mind, making it into distinct, focused objects instantly and calling up their affective / "time-based" component. It later occurred to me that it is words themselves that give rise to identification itself. Later, when reading texts like the Book of the Subgenius (which has a chapter that the reading of uses extensive perspective-shifting to induce a complete no-self experience), they suggested that understanding words was the key to the whole thing. Other texts like the Bible also have this sort of emphasis on continually reading and absorbing particular words, phrases, etc. in order to ingrain that "code" into your mind. Hell, even the Actual Freedom trust is LOADED with words, many of which are repeated to form "triggers" to induce a particular perspective.

Then I though, "Wait a minute! The instinctive survival package of affective vibrations is just that: instinctive. It was around before language! How could this be?" It then occurred to me that just because something isn't in the dictionary doesn't mean it wasn't a word: the VIBRATIONS THEMSELVES are the "words" of the universe! If vibrations could be looked at as rudimentary "words" or "sounds" corresponding to a concomitant form, then all the vibrations in the universe could be looked at as the "words" composing matter itself. Hence the phrase, "God is The Word, the Word was God" etc. Vibration is the language-code of reality itself (The Matrix anyone?)

So this brings the bizarre, yet compelling questions into the forefront that I've dealt with:
1. Is there a dimension of absurd, reality-bending power available to the human who can discover the code behind all things?
2. If there is, can it be discovered and used in a progressive, repeatable way?
3. Is it worth it? Will it help us find true, ultimate, lasting fulfillment any more than simply using the already-existing actual freedom method?

If you read this, thank you for entertaining the bizarro freaky part of my brain. I hope I'm not the only (partially) crazy one here with ideas about things like this.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
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11/11/11 3:20 PM as a reply to #1 - 0.
#1 - 0:
Then I though, "Wait a minute! The instinctive survival package of affective vibrations is just that: instinctive. It was around before language! How could this be?" It then occurred to me that just because something isn't in the dictionary doesn't mean it wasn't a word: the VIBRATIONS THEMSELVES are the "words" of the universe! If vibrations could be looked at as rudimentary "words" or "sounds" corresponding to a concomitant form, then all the vibrations in the universe could be looked at as the "words" composing matter itself. Hence the phrase, "God is The Word, the Word was God" etc. Vibration is the language-code of reality itself (The Matrix anyone?)

So this brings the bizarre, yet compelling questions into the forefront that I've dealt with:
1. Is there a dimension of absurd, reality-bending power available to the human who can discover the code behind all things?
2. If there is, can it be discovered and used in a progressive, repeatable way?
3. Is it worth it? Will it help us find true, ultimate, lasting fulfillment any more than simply using the already-existing actual freedom method?

If you read this, thank you for entertaining the bizarro freaky part of my brain. I hope I'm not the only (partially) crazy one here with ideas about things like this.


You're not the first with the idea. There are fantasy books where the magic systems are based on knowing the 'true' names of things. For example, knowing the 'name' of a spoon, speaking its 'language', you can tell it to move around.

Personally, I think I have a far better chance at figuring out these types of things post-AF, so I'm holding off my investigations until then. I don't see why AF would cut off any possibilities that aren't delusory.

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11/12/11 5:21 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Marius K:
The probability as of today is that actualism is a process that allows one to make contact with the true/actual informational structure of the universe, described in words like purity, peerlessness, infinitude, perfection.

This seems to directly contradict your earlier post:
Marius K:
My point is that what is called the actual world is simply a projection of an absence of a psyche in the individual concerned and has nothing to do with the objective properties of the world outside


Which is it?


# I stand by what I previously said, in the sense that actuality is the direct result of the absence of the psyche within an individual flesh and blood body, complete with a reasoning brain. A PCE takes place when the psyche is in abeyance, that is, temporarily absent.

As I remember a PCE or two, they were simply sensate only experiences of life in my recollection, I don't remember experiencing anything concerning infinitude or peerlessness about the world. Of course, now I can extrapolate based on those experiences and say that there's no outside to perfection.

Psyche or no psyche meddling with our experiencing, the reality we live in is determined/conditioned by our bodies first and foremost. As these bodies are made of the same-same stuff as the universe, I presumed the probability that living as a flesh and blood body only will allow a direct connection with the universe true/actual/objective properties and attributes, thus making them magically apparent. I said 'as of today' to emphasize that the probability I was talking about is not definitive, but subject to other(s) confirmations or contradictions, plus that conclusion might change in time, subject to new input.

The reason I am not 100% sure that this is it, that what we experience, PCE or non-PCE wise, is a set-in-stone actuality/reality, is because I was witness to some events that defy reasonable explanations. How can you explain seeing someone fly through this reality and then stopping for a chat, how can you explain meeting people (presumably) 20,000 km away and then meeting them again, only slightly changed, as an adaptation to the new environment? How can you explain seeing people appear and then, a few moments later, disappear? The last ones might have been some holographic zeros, but still, it's something that defies what we take as our reality iron-clad functioning laws.

My take on this is that it is all a program, that reality is information-codified (take an oak seed for instance), and that some individuals have learned to play with this program, learning the capability to project themselves into our reality at will. No idea how they manage to do it.

It is quite possible that the whole reality and/or actuality thing is generated by a mirror system within our brains, that takes in what essentially is a fuzzy informational field and turns it into what we see, hear, taste and so on, Maya. Not that the Absolute Reality is any better objective wise, that is if you don't want to live your entire life drugged to the core.

Then again, I might be mistaken and the entire show might be nothing more than a giant Matroska version, one reality enclosed within another one and so on ad infinitum, none of these realities less or more real than the next.

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11/12/11 8:43 AM as a reply to Marius K.
Marius K:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Marius K:
The probability as of today is that actualism is a process that allows one to make contact with the true/actual informational structure of the universe, described in words like purity, peerlessness, infinitude, perfection.

This seems to directly contradict your earlier post:
Marius K:
My point is that what is called the actual world is simply a projection of an absence of a psyche in the individual concerned and has nothing to do with the objective properties of the world outside


Which is it?


# I stand by what I previously said, in the sense that actuality is the direct result of the absence of the psyche within an individual flesh and blood body, complete with a reasoning brain. A PCE takes place when the psyche is in abeyance, that is, temporarily absent.

As I remember a PCE or two, they were simply sensate only experiences of life in my recollection, I don't remember experiencing anything concerning infinitude or peerlessness about the world. Of course, now I can extrapolate based on those experiences and say that there's no outside to perfection.

Psyche or no psyche meddling with our experiencing, the reality we live in is determined/conditioned by our bodies first and foremost. As these bodies are made of the same-same stuff as the universe, I presumed the probability that living as a flesh and blood body only will allow a direct connection with the universe true/actual/objective properties and attributes, thus making them magically apparent. I said 'as of today' to emphasize that the probability I was talking about is not definitive, but subject to other(s) confirmations or contradictions, plus that conclusion might change in time, subject to new input.

The reason I am not 100% sure that this is it, that what we experience, PCE or non-PCE wise, is a set-in-stone actuality/reality, is because I was witness to some events that defy reasonable explanations. How can you explain seeing someone fly through this reality and then stopping for a chat, how can you explain meeting people (presumably) 20,000 km away and then meeting them again, only slightly changed, as an adaptation to the new environment? How can you explain seeing people appear and then, a few moments later, disappear? The last ones might have been some holographic zeros, but still, it's something that defies what we take as our reality iron-clad functioning laws.

My take on this is that it is all a program, that reality is information-codified (take an oak seed for instance), and that some individuals have learned to play with this program, learning the capability to project themselves into our reality at will. No idea how they manage to do it.

It is quite possible that the whole reality and/or actuality thing is generated by a mirror system within our brains, that takes in what essentially is a fuzzy informational field and turns it into what we see, hear, taste and so on, Maya. Not that the Absolute Reality is any better objective wise, that is if you don't want to live your entire life drugged to the core.

Then again, I might be mistaken and the entire show might be nothing more than a giant Matroska version, one reality enclosed within another one and so on ad infinitum, none of these realities less or more real than the next.



That is similar to how Don Juan Matus explains the universe in the Castaneda series: An onion, each layer it's own variation on perception, revealing a different universe with different laws. Stopping the "mental dialogue" for extended periods of time supposedly functions as a perceptual "springboard" into different modes of perception, some very strange and otherworldly. They also used lucid dreaming to enter through "Dream-gates" into these worlds, that supposedly held wisdom and knowledge for the sorceror bold enough to seek them out.

However, on the other hand, he said that no matter what happened, what feats of perceptual wizardry you've unfolded, you will never be able to explain what is actually happening - only what you saw. And that it was heavily modulated by individual will and the ability to utilize intent.

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11/16/11 5:09 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I've been thinking about this for a while and a few questions have been reoccurring:

Why do you keep practicing for AF if you're not really sure you want it? As I understand it you are now virtually free, plus you can do lucid dreaming etc. Why not just settle for this? (Genuine question, no reverse-psychology etc.)

When you have a long lasting PCE do you have the ability to voluntarily end it? Is the PCE everlasting until it's not, or do you intuitively know that it's temporary?

Also, what puzzles me the most: Speaking from my own experience (from earlier stages), once it's seen that the snake is in fact a rope I no longer have a choice in the matter; the brain will change it's perception of the world accordingly, no matter if I want to change or not. So how can you see the rope again and again and still have the ability to switch and select between rope and snake? (sorry for the metaphor overkill). Maybe it's different at later stages?

Hopefully you/someone have time to answer as I'm truly curious.

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11/17/11 7:42 PM as a reply to Pål S..
once it's seen that the snake is in fact a rope I no longer have a choice in the matter; the brain will change it's perception of the world accordingly, no matter if I want to change or not. So how can you see the rope again and again and still have the ability to switch and select between rope and snake?



The mind evolved to discern between rope and snake and to generate emotions for the appropriate action. It didn't evolve to discern between useful and counter-productive emotions. It didn't evolve to discern between affective and anaffective states. It didn't evolve so that it could question it's entire modus operandi.

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Answer
11/18/11 4:29 AM as a reply to Jon T.
Is there fundamentally any difference between the two? The mind developed the ability to discern as it was more beneficial (i.e. reproducible) than not having this ability. What is being discerned is merely the variable, which itself is unable to reproduce (due to its undefinable property). Hence it's the discerning functionality itself that has evolved and therefor it cannot have an inherit bias.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/18/11 12:15 PM as a reply to Pål S..
Is there fundamentally any difference between the two? The mind developed the ability to discern as it was more beneficial (i.e. reproducible) than not having this ability. What is being discerned is merely the variable, which itself is unable to reproduce (due to its undefinable property). Hence it's the discerning functionality itself that has evolved and therefor it cannot have an inherit bias.



Emotions hit the neo-cortex at light speed and the neo-cortex responds just as fast. The neo-cortex evolved to treat emotions as catalysts for action. The faculty of abstract discernment kicks in only when a choice is presented. In our advanced society, there are always multiple choices each with chains of potential consequences. We are teaching ourselves to use abstract discernment on the emotions themselves. We are giving ourselves another choice. There are many reasons not to choose no-self or analyze or ignore. Each time the lower brain sends a signal the neo-cortex has to choose yet again.

Compare that to the rope/snake analogy which is a great one btw. As soon as we recognize the rope isn't a snake, the lower brain no longer sends signals of fear or anger. The intelligence (the neo-cortex) is free to act sans emotion. This is different from daily life when the lower brain is constantly sending the neo-cortex signals of emotion. If, in this case, the lower brain continued to send signals of either fear, anger or both then the neo-cortex would continually have to decipher between rope and snake.

Why does the lower brain continue to send signals of emotions after the intelligence has concluded that they are invalid at worst and redundant at best? I think it's because that it can operate independently and, in fact, evolved first and only later combined with the neo-cortex. The neo-cortex doesn't know how to turn off that aspect of it's function just as it can't turn off heart beat or vision or hearing.

So the lower brain continues to send signals to the higher brain even after those signals are deemed worthless by that same higher brain. And each signal that is received must be independently analyzed and/or ignored. Evidently the neo-cortex gets so good at this that it becomes second nature to ignore the lower brains signals. And evidently the lower brain ceases to send them at some point.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/19/11 7:05 PM as a reply to Pål S..
As to why to pursue AF (a questions asked a few posts up), actually all of those things I was concerned about (dreams, powers) are not at all concerns now, just vanished, might arise again, who knows, but now I am just checking things out.

Again, as posted a while up there, these things arise and vanish so quickly (minutes, days, weeks, usually no more than that) that posting them may be of dubious value or continued relevance past just that brief period.

Daniel

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/19/11 7:46 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
As to why to pursue AF (a questions asked a few posts up), actually all of those things I was concerned about (dreams, powers) are not at all concerns now, just vanished, might arise again, who knows, but now I am just checking things out.

Nicely said, hope things continue in a way that maximizes the living shit out of this wonderful, wonderful experience of being alive.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/20/11 10:51 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
As to why to pursue AF (a questions asked a few posts up), actually all of those things I was concerned about (dreams, powers) are not at all concerns now, just vanished, might arise again, who knows, but now I am just checking things out.

Again, as posted a while up there, these things arise and vanish so quickly (minutes, days, weeks, usually no more than that) that posting them may be of dubious value or continued relevance past just that brief period.

Daniel


I had quite an interesting dream last night. I don't usually have dreams as I have never been a big dreamer. I have the occasional one but they are not very memorable and seem like they last an instant and have no susbtance to them. No affective content either.

This dream I had last night though was interesting as it starred Tarin (with short hair as I'd seen him in a Skype chat we had) while we both were walking along a river bank. The river was murky brown as are a lot of rivers in Australia. So in my mind it seemed like that was the location. We were right next to the moving water as we pushed bushes on the bank back out of the way to make our way somewhere unknown to me. Tarin was leading. We started conversing while walking. There was much said, but I can't quite remember exactly everything except for some key things.

We were talking about AF and how those who get to AF understand how websites are made being related to the human mind. I told him I had no idea how websites are made but then asked him if he was talking about how they are coded to function being related to how one sees the mind post AF. I think he said yes to that question. There is something I am missing from this exchange which i remembered as soon as I woke up this morning, but I can't quite remember exactly what it was. I think it was something key to the conversation that came before the website comments. Weird, huh?

We then somehow found ourselves on a small island or where the bank of the river protruded inwards towards the middle of the river, and he, still leading, proceeded to strip to his undies and promptly dived into the water, but just before doing so said something along the lines of "You just have to jump in!". The thoughts that then followed were "Should i jump in with all my clothes on?". I woke up just as I thought that.

I can't willfully generate any affect and imagining things in the mind's eye is really difficult in that something is about to arise but it doesn't and I'm left with a sort of residual effect of what an image would have looked like before. Hard to explain, yet I'm still have these strange dreams. Not very often but this one certainly was up there as one of the strangest, and possibly most lucid.

Edit: thinking about it now, the important info Tarin conveyed to me in the dream was something along the lines of AFers knowing how coding (websites and other things) somehow was understood much more so when AF as it related somehow to the human mind. Something about mathematics as well. hmm.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
11/21/11 5:04 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
To Nikolai and Daniel: You might find the book "DREAM YOGA AND THE PRACTICE OF NATURAL LIGHT" by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche of interest as I had, as it clarified a lot on such experiences which I had, as well as being a good manual for dream practice.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
12/16/11 9:31 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
@#1-0: I have had lucid dreams and flying dreams throughout my life, but certain things make them more likely, such as drifting back to sleep after waking up, and also detailing the specifics of the sensations of my ordinary waking life: i.e. actualism-like practices. This is an old trick from the Traveling/OBE literature also. Inclination to them makes them more likely, but they occur frequently enough with no obvious inclination at all.

As to whether or not they are affective or actual, bound up in desire or emotion beyond what everything else is, that is at this point hard to say definitely which is which. How can one really and truly tell exactly which is which without having completed the thing? I find drawing some line there problematic. How can the affective not be the actual at some level, given that the affective is sensate and causal and empty and apperceptive? These fine points of division seem artificial as interesting as the question is, and yet something clearly is to be gained from asking it anyway.

Travels and lucid dreams have profound sensual qualities, rich details, compelling specifics. Often the whole point is the direct enjoyment of that mode of perception, that realm and its way of functioning, its unique causal possibilities. How is that extremely high level of direct sensate appreciation not related to actualism or just good practice in general? How is that profound degree of concentration not skillful? How can that immediacy lack merit? Given that there are clearly what for all the world feel like physical sensations in those modes, how can one be sure that the idealism that goes with flesh-and-blood focus doesn't equally apply? Given how compelling it is, and given that things being compelling points to something affective as well, is it necessarily so that noticing how those things are compelling is unskillful? Are they not some sort of opportunity instead to see affect the fluid, dramatic and significantly less censored way that dreams and the like allow?

It again seems deeply odd to me to negate, cut off, ignore, deny, split off or otherwise repress that mode of things, and something in me calls out for inclusion and expansion rather than something else. Can we really say "that is all delusion and nothing but a trap" and be utterly certain that it has no value for exploration or even simple recreation, not to mention interpersonal communication and the like.

It may be that in some months or years I look back and say, "What a young fool I was, how silly to make anything out of all that whatsoever, how happy I am to have no dreams at all, how nice that the night is just a perfect blank of mindless rest," but then again, perhaps not...

Daniel


Hi Daniel,

So nice to hear about your lucid dreaming and "traveling". I assume you mean what they used to call "astral travelling". Have you ever verified a real OOB journey? So many stories, so little evidence. I've never done astral traveling but I have done a fair share of lucid dreaming. I can see how the anticipation of losing that ability would drain some motivation for pursuing AF. I noticed not one of those counted among the Actually Free on this forum responded with their experiences of lucid dreaming after attaining Actual Freedom. That does not surprise me, as I would rank lucid dreaming as one of the most compelling "affective" and altered states of consciousness that I have ever experienced. I agree with Bruno on the affective nature of dreams and the daytime counterpart of daydreaming. The sense of "I AM" feels very strong to me in the lucid dream state.
"BEINGNESS" feels gleefully strong, exalted, powerful. Quite the opposite, from my understanding, of the PCE.
When you wrote back later to testify that you no longer considered losing that ability as a problem, I figured that must count as "Progress" to the people living in Actual Freedom. I can't tell the difference however, between that type of "progress" and ordinary dis-identification. You have a skill, in lucid dreaming, and you put a high value in that skill based on the pleasure, enjoyment, and perhaps other benefits, that it gives you. Then you dropped that attachment, or value, in favor of Actual Freedom. Ordinary people do this frequently:

"We've learned that, after identifying with some things for one purpose or to fulfill one desire, we have to dis-identify with them for the purpose of fulfilling another desire. For example, you may identify with your fingernails when they look attractive, but when they get too long you have to cut them and throw the cut-off pieces away." Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/selvesnotself.html

Progress or dis-identification? We judge certain things in our lives as having inherent meaning and value, yet we have the capacity to withdraw meaning and value from those things, and we usually do this maneuver below the level of conscious awareness. The same way we "decide" on an action, based on "facts", "information", and "evidence", without realizing that the actual process of decision making takes place subconsciously. Science has shown that our brains work differently than we assume. We make decisions unconsciously and then reverse-engineer our thinking and memory to justify our decisions. Really we just make shit up all the time.
Richard traded in his "me" and became a ME, a Meaning Engineer. If you can re-engineer MEANING below the level of conscious awareness, then no one can interfere with your perfect world.
Daniel, I think that if you do lose OOBE skill and lucid dreaming skill in the process of attaining Actual Freedom, then you will have paid a high price for AF.

The people who have attained Actual Freedom have usually portrayed AF as a Win/Win kind of attainment. They simply don't put value on what they lose in the process. Let's review a few of those things:

1) At least some, if not most of the imagination abilities
2) Probably the ability to lucid dream as both an imaginative and affective faculty, and travel "out of the body"
3) The affective faculty of felt empathy or felt compassion
4) Romantic love, familial love, brotherly love, and other forms of felt love
5) Affective based healing abilities
6) The ability to think CLEARLY and COHERENTLY, and make intelligent decisions

Just a quick partial list off the top of my head. I don't think we have seen a full accounting yet for the price people pay, in terms of LOSSES, in attaining Actual Freedom. No one talks much here about a price paid for Actual Freedom. I feel happy that you brought the subject up. I also take pleasure in learning that the neo actualists actually enjoy recreational drug use. Again we don't see them stampeding to this thread to comment. We seem to get a very limited stream of information from these kids. They don't have much so say about things that they lose or drugs that they use.

I wonder why. Why they don't comment, and why they do use drugs. Come to think of it, the neo actualists don't talk about Actualism bringing about a lasting world peace whereas the original Aussie crew used to expound on at it length. I suspect that the neo actualists don't want to say anything that would put Actual Freedom in a negative light. And that whole "World Peace" angle seemed geared to sell more DVD's. Why no talk here here devoted that holiest of all holy grails? Maybe they don't believe it will happen like Richard did.

WORLD PEACE NOW!!!!

I made fun of the Aussie Actualists because of their talk of World Peace, but at least they put it on the table. I have to give them a little credit for that. Here at this forum, I don't see it discussed at all. What better motivation for practicing Actualism and losing the first five (never mind #6-really) features/abilities I noted above than to help bring about World Peace?
Hey, if EVERYONE becomes Actually Free, then we will have World Peace, right? Doesn't that drive the agenda here? Doesn't that make it necessary to censor criticism of AF, or put it in the dungeon of the so called Dharma Battleground?
Because we gots to get more people to Actual Freedom before we (the human race) completely ruin the environment and SELF DESTRUCT!
come on people now! smile on your brother!
Get on the PEACE TRAIN!
Any path that brings happiness and fulfillment only to one's self and does not help bring about World Peace has no relevance in the 21'st century.

I can guess why they don't comment on all this stuff, I would just like to hear it from a real AF type. And getting back to the drug use, why WOULD they use drugs? Like you, Daniel, I come from a non judgmental standpoint with this question. I just wonder, if they experience the perfection living in utter peace and stillness, in every timeless moment, in the beautiful Actual World, then how does THAT get any BETTER through the use of drugs? Or instead of something better, do they just experience something different, thrilling or amazing, like someone doing hang gliding off a cliff or going downhill skiing at dangerous speeds?


And how do they personally experience different drugs? If they use hallucinogens, do they get the same effects, experiences, hallucinations, that non AF people get? Remember Ram Dass, AKA Richard Albert dosing his guru with LSD? As I recall, the guru acted like nothing special happened under the influence of LSD-
Ha- you gotta love the internet- I found this story in seconds:

"In 1967 when I first came to India, I brought with me a supply of LSD, hoping to find someone who might understand more about these substances than we did in the West. When I had met Maharajji(Neem Karoli Baba), after some days the thought had crossed my mind that he would be a perfect person to ask.

The next day after having that thought, I was called to him and he asked me immediately, "Do you have a question?"
Of course, being before him was such a powerful experience that I had completely forgotten the question I had had in my mind the night before. So I looked stupid and said, "No, Maharajji, I have no question."
He appeared irritated and said, "Where is the medicine?"
I was confused but Bhagavan Dass suggested,
"Maybe he means the LSD." I asked and Maharajji nodded. The bottle of LSD was in the car and I was sent to fetch it.

When I returned I emptied the vial of pills into my hand.
In addition to the LSD there were a number of other pills for this and that--diarrhea, fever, a sleeping pill, and so forth. He asked about each of these. He asked if they gave powers. I didn't understand at the time and thought that by "powers" perhaps he meant physical strength. I said, "No." Later, of course, I came to understand that the word he had used, "siddhis," means psychic powers.
Then he held out his hand for the LSD. I put one pill on his palm.
Each of these pills was about three hundred micrograms of very pure LSD-
-a solid dose for an adult. He beckoned for more, so I put a second pill in his hand--six hundred micrograms. Again he beckoned and I added yet another, making the total dosage 900 micrograms--certainly not a dose for beginners. Then he threw all the pills into his mouth. My reaction was one of shock mixed with fascination of a social scientist eager to see what would happen. He allowed me to stay for an hour--

and nothing happened.

Nothing whatsover.
He just laughed at me.

http://www.miqel.com/entheogens/neem-karoli-baba-lsd-alpert.html



Weird story, huh? As the story continued Ram Dass later gave the guru 1200 MCG of LSD (a very hefty dose) and the guru joked around as if again, nothing unusual had happened.
Not to compare an Indian Guru to an AF person, I would just assume that the AF person would also have a different experience than the ordinary person under the influence of LSD. Like the MRI tests, it might give us useful information about the AF state.

Getting back to lucid dreaming, I also wondered why you have experienced such an increase in lucid dreaming as your AF practices continue. It does not make any sense to me that you would get an increase in lucid dreaming as a side effect of AF practice, then have it drop to zero upon attaining AF. And since no one else commented on this aspect, I have to wonder what connection (if any) exists between lucid dreaming and AF practice. I'll have to read the book Eternal Now suggested. (I got access using Don Juan's method as reported or imagined by Castenada, and then LaBerge's more methodical technique). Stephen LaBerge, by the way, did the original research at the Stanford Sleep Laboratory proving the phenomena called lucid dreaming actually exists, when most sleep researchers denied the POSSIBILITY that you could have conscious awareness while in the dream state. He did this in the sleep lab by using specific eye movements to signal through the eye electrodes, that he had achieved lucidity while in REM sleep. (note- lucid in this case does not mean clear or vivid. It means full conscious awareness, as in "Oh, I am dreaming this right now" WHILE in the dream and assuming almost full control, as an active conscious agent.) I don't think we can convey, to people who have not experienced this, the WOW factor of your first fully lucid dream.

Hey, I always thought that full and complete awakening in "life" would resemble awakening into a lucid dream. Even AF might resemble it. Awakening in the lucid dream confers a state of astounding freedom. In that state, you have a different relationship to these 7 factors -- TIME, PAIN, DEATH, GRAVITY, CONSISTENCY, COMPLEXITY, and MUTUAL AGREEMENT.
1) You inhabit a timeless reality in a sense, because you don't have to work to survive, or assume any responsibilities. What work do you need to do in a lucid dream? You have freedom from all social agreements. Purposelessness=timelessness, or at least a generally complete reduction in time urgency.
2) I don't fear pain or experience significant pain in a lucid dream, because I have confidence that nothing in the dream can hurt the "real" me. (a few weeks ago, I had a dream where I drove a large bus accidentally over a cliff. I became lucid in mid-air and stopped worrying. What will happen when I hit the ground? How charming! Falling with confidence gives me about as much pleasure as flying. I don't know how the other people on the bus felt, but I did not hear them screaming, so maybe they had confidence in my bus driving abilities, although one might assume that the rather straightforward manner in which I had just driven the bus off the cliff would tend to undermine such confidence in my driving abilities, especially as the bus continued to plunge headlong toward the ground. Seconds later, without any conscious effort on my part, the whole bus slowed down to a snails velocity just before touching the ground lightly).
Pain CAN happen in a lucid dream, but it does not, in my experience, come anywhere close to real physical pain.

3) I don't fear death because nothing in the dream world can kill my sleeping body. Unlike "The Matrix", you can die in a lucid dream and wake up later in another dream, (after a brief interlude in the dream-void), or wake up in real life.
4) Gravity does not have a hold on me because I can fly at will.
5) We have a quality of consistency in our daily waking world. We do not have much consistency in the dream world. Anything can happen almost all the time. Sometimes consistency in the real world leads to boredom. The "same old same old" expression comes out of the daily consistency of same work, same relationships, same entertainment, same routines, etc. etc. This may lead to boredom. I never get bored in a lucid dream. I have never heard or read a report of someone getting bored in a lucid dream.
6) I feel burdened sometimes by the complexity of daily life. Not so in lucid dream life. Take my bus driving adventure. If that happened in real life, I would have to deal with real life consequences, assuming I survived it anyway. I would have to take responsibility for causing injury or death to other people. I would have guilt, sadness, possible lawsuits, personal physical pain and injuries, financial costs, etc. All of these complexities of real life don't come into play in the lucid dream. Hence the sheer glee I experienced as the bus plummeted down. Responsibilities? I don't really have any in the lucid dream, except perhaps the task or adventure I sometimes set up in my waking mind prior to the dream.
7) Mutual agreement. What kind of responsibilities do I have toward other people in the lucid dream? Since no separation exists between dream figures and myself, I only have responsibility that I choose. In real life, we have laws, behavior codes, ethics, and morality. We have codified these things and we have codified punishment for those who break specific agreements. Other people don't really exist in lucid dreaming, so I don't have to follow any guideline. I can do whatever I want whenever I want with no apparent consequences to "other people" or the "environment".

Heh- excuse me while I cough up an old hairball.

I did not include "space" on this list, because I think mutual agreement creates shared space. I "argued" with Ricky about this years ago. I take the position that nothing exists outside of the mind/minds or Mind of the perciever(s). Steven LaBerge wrote about his first Tibetan teacher who came to the USA and knew only a few words of English. His talks consisted mostly of saying "all this" "all this" and gesturing to include the room, the people, himself, the world.
"All this... DREAM!" and then laughs as if he came to a great punchline. I have never come upon a better explanation of the universe or multiverse.
Ricky argued that space must exist outside of consciousness or perception otherwise how could you
http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/gardolcorrespondence/14How-I-Achieved-Actual-Freedom.htm

wait for it-

have dinosaur bones!
Yes, dinosaur bones proves to Ricky that we have not just mutually dreamed up this world because we could NOT have mutually dreamed up dinosaur bones! Right? Also a person in a coma proves it, because the room they abide in still exists, regardless of the persons deficits in perception and brain activity. Also in reality, you can drive a CAR to a BANK and WITHDRAW MONEY. He basically took the position of the early 20th century logical positivists. Dreams happen in imaginary space, reality happens in REAL space. Dreams happen in a physical brain. Reality happens in the real world in real time. No connection exists between those two things. You can't withdraw money from a dream bank and spend it in the real world.

By mutual, and by mind, I don't mean just human beings. I include all perceiving entities, including animals, bugs, fungi, and trees. Anything with awareness, or consciousness. Not small mind- Big MInd. Ricky could not grasp this concept.
People on this forum, including AF attainees, may have no problem with this concept, but Ricky sure did. Part of his 180 degrees thing. Don't ask me why I get on this particular, and probably pointlessly pedantic soapbox. Sometimes I choose my soapboxes, sometimes they choose me. I wonder if I will ever find my one true soapbox and one true fight, in that intersection between conscious awareness practice/awakenings, and our current desperate political reality. Sometimes I think I may never GET THINGS RIGHT in any permanent sense.

I can only hope, that in the future, I will make better mistakes.


I agree with the Tibetan dude.
"All this.... DREAM!
That does not make me a solipsist, because I don't equate reality with MY personal dream. I equate it with the mutual dream, which makes it more "real". Occam's Razor supports my side of the argument, as the simplest explanation to fit the facts. Why complicate things with a "real world space" that you can not prove? We have evidence that people can experience shared dreams and report seeing the same things in these "spaces". I have never seen a shred of evidence that the real world exists outside of the mutual or individual perception of it.
I say if you have mutual agreement, then as a result, the elements such as pain, death, gravity, time, consistency, and gravity come into play. The presence of these characteristics make the mutual dream seem "real".

The 7 elements I listed above all have one common theme. I can reduce it to a single word. That word takes up a lot of enk on this forum. A little puzzle for anyone interested.


You know, Daniel, I did not have a window into you until these recent posts of yours.
Now I think I get you and I look forward to your future reports on your quest. I wonder if you could say anything about how or if your AF practice varies from the norm. You say this:

"The more practice I do, the more elaborate, lucid and fully-formed my dream life becomes. Is it really true that it will continue to go in that direction and then, at one sudden moment, cut off all that in one radical and surprising reversal of direction, like some giant bait and switch?"

No one else I know of has said that their AF practice increases lucid dreams. I wonder, did this increase in lucid dreaming begin recently, or has it corresponded with your AF practice since the start? Also, with so many different approaches to AF floating around these parts, I have to ask to you - do you do anything different in your AF practice that might cause more lucid dreams? You have also stated, after all -

"It is a bit ironic that, while I run a public forum for people to discuss their practice, I myself have generally kept about 95% of my practice details to myself."

Maybe something in that 95% has caused an increase for you, in the frequency(?), and intensity of your lucid dream adventures.
By the way,I would guess that you have a lot more pressure on you than most people trying out AF. You have responsibilities as an ER doctor, a householder, author, teacher, and you have this website. You have a lot of plates spinning. No wonder you love lucid dreaming! The writer/teacher role must make the jump to Actual Freedom all the more difficult. I had a point here, but I just can't put my finger on it.

I'll say this- for myself, I think lucid dreaming occurs as an expression of my true nature as this particular human being living in this place and time. I don't know if I would trade in a part of my true nature for AF, because I don't see anything wrong with my true nature. Sometimes, after I have "moved on" from something that had great value to me, I find that months later or years later, that which I "left behind" or "transcended" or "transformed" or whatever, comes back to me of it's own accord, perhaps with a different MEANING, and I thank goodness for that.

Personally, though, I hope you do manage to combine AF and lucid dreaming and whatever other "powers" interest you. Steph had an interesting idea- I would propose it this way- What happens if you try to get a PCE while in a lucid dream?

After each "awakening" I have had in my life, I get the impression that NOW I see reality more clearly. I have begun to understand that really, I have just peeked under a veil. And each time I peek under another veil, after a while, I notice that I really see, not reality, but yet another veil. And I can't remove the veil now in front of me using the same method that I used for the last veil. I really don't know how I can remove the next one.



In my real waking life, I remember sitting with Adi Da on a very sunny day and seeing everything around and through me composed of nothing but light. Years later, I received a powerful transmission from Eli Jackson Bear and wandered around sacred ground in the pre dawn hours as if in a faery land, intoxicated by everything I saw. I watched a cat trying to catch any of several bats flying around it. It made amazing leaps into the air, twisting and turning in mid-air. At one point the cat caught one in it's claws. I rushed up to it and saw that the bat had a bluish tinge. I had seen bats before, but not like this one. It had ROUNDED bluish wings, like elongated ovals rather than the usual bat-shape wings. I don't think these bats exist in the actual world. (if anyone else has seen them let me know). The bat escaped the clutches of the cat and flew off, and the game continued.
My experiences with Adi Da and Eli come closest in my waking experience to the ecstatic freedom and love I experience in the lucid dream state. You want to talk powers, those guys had/have serious POWER. Papaji had POWER. Just sit with someone like that and you will know.

Until I learn to levitate and fly at will in physical reality, I won't consider myself fully "enlightened".

Gardol Yack

P.S. Speaking of Adi Da, 1.5 years have passed since the last deliriously optimistic update on the AFT website. (May 29, 2010).
http://actualfreedom.com.au/announcement.htm#Addendum4
This fascinating page includes a stratospherically weird conversation between Ricky and R-22, (AKA Marius K), regarding such sundry topics as when did "----" last have sex, Adi Da... did Irene die.
Anyone curious as to what has happened at the home office of the franchise? Pretty quiet there.
Oops. Another hairball... sorry

Just sayin', bubba, just sayin'.

PPS- This may have nothing to do with anything I've said, and I can't recommend watching it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOSZwEwl_1Q

And don't even bother with this one-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkgmZ9ZccU&feature=related



All you need is love.
Not really, I know everyone needs more than that, but love enhances relationship
which enhances meaning. Meaning transforms pain.
Meaning=manna.
To deprive myself of love will deprive me of a source of meaning, enjoyment, connection, and healing.
Depriving myself of lucid dreaming would do likewise.

Regarding meaning- (spoiler alert) Don't watch this unless you have seen the movie "Mask" Here you see the portrayal of a mother doing some "meaning engineering" to deal with intolerable grief and suffering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7tJtLw7BE8&feature=related

Happy trials, ;-) and Merry Chexmix,
emoticon
G

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
12/16/11 10:39 AM as a reply to Gardol U. Yack.
Hehe, that was fantastically entertaining to read - thanks for that! And I don't mean that in a derogatory way.

I don't want to get into a debate right now, but one question:
Gardol U. Yack:
Doesn't that make it necessary to censor criticism of AF, or put it in the dungeon of the so called Dharma Battleground?

Why do you refer to it as a dungeon? The battleground threads appear at the top of the Recent Posts page if there are recent posts in them, and most people who are actively participating view the forum by using the recent posts page. So, to me, it doesn't seem the case that it is hidden off from the other threads to prevent participation - to me (and many others, it seems) they appear as prominently as any other currently-active thread.

Why do you call it "so called"? There are many categories. Some are for practice threads, others are for debating the merits of a practice. If someone wanted to browse the archives to see what insight practice looks like, they should browse the insight category... if someone wanted to browse the archives to see what an actualism-inspired practice looks like, they should browse the "Practices Inspired by Actualism" category... if someone wanted to browse the archives to see debates about whether Actualism is a good idea at all, they should browse the "The Dharma Battleground" category... so it seems to me, anyway.

Maybe this isn't explained clearly anywhere? I don't want to discourage debate for those who want to participate in it, but it also seems disruptive to have practice threads flooded with attacks on the practice itself.

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
12/17/11 7:59 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Thanks Beoman-
I enjoy reading your various posts and your practice notes.

"Why do you refer to it as a dungeon?"


Most of my posts reside in the DB. I had questions for Stephanie D that I posted down there, and she never answered me perhaps because she did not want to, but I suspected that she might not have read that post. (in fact, I don't check it regularly, and if she responded weeks later, I would not know it). Some people here don't read the battleground posts. Sometimes I don't check it for months and find some surprising gold there. If they already have made up their minds about actualism they may just avoid the DB to keep pesky questions out of their minds and maintain motivation to practice. I understand that part, but still the censorship annoys me.
I purposefully tried to throw mostly "softballs" in this recent post in order to keep it out of the battleground, and I find it gratifying that it did not get sent there. Actually it surprises me somewhat, and makes me wonder if the censorship here has lightened up. It sure looks that way. Maybe you have taken over for Tarin? I have not noticed his heavy hand lately.
Anyway, I don't like getting censored. It feels like punishment. So that, plus my (perhaps faulty) perception that few AF types would read posts in the DB led me to call it a dungeon.

I never have used the "recent posts page". Looks useful. Thanks.





"Why do you call it "so called"?"

I think my post to Tarin answers that.
http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1859628
I prefer no hold barred fighting. I don't think he should say "flame wars" if he does not mean it. Also, I don't like too much Political Correctness. When confrontation got heated in the "AF and jobs thread", I got a little reprimand from Tarin. I see this as hypocritical. People get away with insults all the time here. Look at some of the things members here, including Daniel, have said about Marius K.

If I made some of those same comments about Daniel, I think I would earn another warning and my posts would go to the "battleground". The refs always favor the home team.

Also the censorship only takes care of direct or obvious insults, while polite insults and PC insults can carry the same sting, but those insults (again, usually from the "home team") get a pass.

But I get your points. I definitely don't want a debate about this either. I prefer to minimize my participation here rather than argue for changes.

Regards,
g

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
12/18/11 2:26 PM as a reply to Gardol U. Yack.
hi gardol,

Gardol U. Yack:

"Why do you refer to it as a dungeon?"


Most of my posts reside in the DB. I had questions for Stephanie D that I posted down there, and she never answered me perhaps because she did not want to, but I suspected that she might not have read that post. (in fact, I don't check it regularly, and if she responded weeks later, I would not know it).

stefanie d, when she reads the dho forum, reads it via the 'recent posts' page, and so she was no less likely to have read your posted questions to her than if the thead (that those questions were posted in) had been in the (then-called) 'actualism/actual freedom' forum.


Gardol U. Yack:

Some people here don't read the battleground posts.

while technically this may be true for 'some people' (as no more than 2 people are needed to satisfy that condition), the overwhelming majority of respondents to my quick survey (which was made, and kept as, a 'sticky' thread for about a year, beginning october last year) read the forum via the 'recent posts' page and, as such, are no less likely to read posts located in the 'dharma battleground' category than those located anywhere else.


Gardol U. Yack:

Sometimes I don't check it for months and find some surprising gold there. If they already have made up their minds about actualism they may just avoid the DB to keep pesky questions out of their minds and maintain motivation to practice. I understand that part, but still the censorship annoys me.

could your surprise at finding valuable posts ('gold') in the 'dharma battleground' category be telling of a pre-conceived notion that you may have arrived to the dho with - namely, that controversial discussions and debates are unlikely to be valuable? if so, realise that your notion about them is not shared by either the founder/owner of this website or by those who actively administer it, for were it to be, there would simply be no discussion category for such controversy at all. however, having seen, over the first year and a half of the dho's existence (when it resided at a forum-hosting website called wetpaint), controversial discussions and debates derail highly practical and practice-oriented threads time and time again, the founder/owner - daniel ingram - thought it better to include, in the new site's set of discussion categories (which are mostly divided by styles of practice), one category specifically for controversial discussions and debates, so that such discussions and debates may have a place on the forum without disrupting its primary focus - namely, practical and directly practice-related discussion (another category, 'theoreticians & traditionalists', was created for a similar purpose). going by the majority of your posts to date, which (save for your reply to beoman's practice thread) are not practice-related in nature, you are either unfamiliar with the dho's purpose or apt to forget it when you post. if the former is the case, you might read the dho frequently asked questions page to familiarise yourself with the site's focus, and possibly lurk more to get a sense of it in action. if the latter is the case, you might ask yourself, every time you are about to post to a thread located in one of the practice-oriented forum categories, whether or not not what you are contributing is relevant to that category and/or thread. note that the answer to the question 'what is appropriate here?' in the faq contains the following stand-alone line: 'Good guidelines are: keep it simple, practice-related, technical when in doubt.' i mention all this, of course, as you seem to be highly concerned with how your posts are categorised on the forum, and this information should give you a better idea of how to keep things more to your liking.

as for your annoyance about the effort at archival orderliness you perceive to be censorship: in examining the causal constituents of your sensate experience (as opposed to its narrative content), you may be able to discern that feelings arise, oft-times, in response to mental images, which are fabricated by memory, formed by memory, and, when they are not clearly comprehended, lead to further fabrication of images and feelings. if you are able to discern this here and now, that would relieve your burden of annoyance entirely. if you are unable to discern this here and now, and further, are unable to determine how such discernment here and now may be developed, may i suggest signing up for a 10-day vipassana course (perhaps in the goenka tradition)? were you to do so, and to scrupulously follow the simple practice instructions given for the entire 10 days of your time on it, you may develop the faculties that would enable you to discern this causal process, which in buddhist contexts is referred to as part of 'dependent origination'. such development is also likely to cause you to have more in common with other active participants here, many of whom are likely able to discern this process to some degree and are less likely to spend time fabricating feelings or dwelling on those feelings fabricated, and who (consequently, i would suggest) demonstrate a greater interest in pursuing the practice(s) of their choice than in debating the merits of practices they are not doing.

i offer this suggestion of a vipassana course off-handedly, by the way, assuming that you are of normal mental health, have no recent - either chronologically or contextually - history of psychosis, or severe depression, or any other condition which might cause you to be unable to adhere to the practice instructions given. should this assumption be incorrect, you might think twice about going on such a course, as their environments are fairly intensive and can be troubling, particularly when the instructions given are not followed.


Gardol U. Yack:

I purposefully tried to throw mostly "softballs" in this recent post in order to keep it out of the battleground, and I find it gratifying that it did not get sent there. Actually it surprises me somewhat, and makes me wonder if the censorship here has lightened up. It sure looks that way. Maybe you have taken over for Tarin? I have not noticed his heavy hand lately.

to my knowledge, the only administrative censorship that has ever occurred at the dho concerned the removal of private parties' personal (and in one case possibly legally confidential) information that was posted, without their consent, by other parties. any other censorship you might mean would seem to exist only, i'm somewhat sorry to say (as the saying has become cliche), in your imagination.

as for your posts being moved to the dhb category: the only instance this has occurred to date is in the case of this thread.


Gardol U. Yack:

Anyway, I don't like getting censored. It feels like punishment. So that, plus my (perhaps faulty) perception that few AF types would read posts in the DB led me to call it a dungeon.

I never have used the "recent posts page". Looks useful. Thanks.

is it possible that a faulty (affective) memory about what has occurred on the forum, which threads have been split or moved and when, might have had something to do with your perception too?

regardless, i am glad that beoman pointed you to the 'recent posts' page, as reading the forum this way for a while might do something to reset your (denigrating) impression of the 'dharma battleground' category.


Gardol U. Yack:

"Why do you call it "so called"?"

I think my post to Tarin answers that.
http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1859628
I prefer no hold barred fighting. I don't think he should say "flame wars" if he does not mean it.

the dharma battleground category was created by the site's owner, who also wrote its subtitle with what i presume was a touch of hyperbolic, tongue-in-cheek humour. your point regarding the use of the term 'flame wars' has been noted, however; after consulting with ingram to ensure that he had no objections, i have modified this subtitle to prevent a possible misunderstanding of the dhb's purpose and to remove a possible pretext for its abuse. the subtitle now reads: 'Here is where high controversy and heated debate should happen with all the compassion, listening, clarification, passion for the truth and intelligence you can muster.'


Gardol U. Yack:

Also, I don't like too much Political Correctness. When confrontation got heated in the "AF and jobs thread", I got a little reprimand from Tarin. I see this as hypocritical. People get away with insults all the time here. Look at some of the things members here, including Daniel, have said about Marius K.

had anyone else stated that they do not respect their fellow participants and had they called their fellow participants 'whining pussies' (as you did), i would have responded in the same way. had daniel ingram (as you have brought him up specifically) posted the same, i would have reminded him that such belligerent schoolyard taunts stand in direct violation of the dho mandate that he himself wrote:
DhO FAQ:

(...) be respectful, honest, kind and keep a focus of "what is useful and true as best I know" in the front of your mind and behave as if the people you are writing to are real people, with hearts, feelings, and life experiences that you likely know very little of, as this is the case.



Gardol U. Yack:

If I made some of those same comments about Daniel, I think I would earn another warning and my posts would go to the "battleground". The refs always favor the home team.

as you haven't made it clear what comments you are specifically referring to here, i cannot say anything meaningful in direct response.


Gardol U. Yack:

Also the censorship only takes care of direct or obvious insults, while polite insults and PC insults can carry the same sting, but those insults (again, usually from the "home team") get a pass.

outright insults are easier to moderate (via addressment) than veiled ones, and veiled insults are easier to imagine than outright ones.

tarin

RE: On Realizing You've Spoken To Soon And Made An Arse Of Things...
Answer
1/23/12 9:47 AM as a reply to tarin greco.
tarin greco:
hi gardol,

Gardol U. Yack:

"Why do you refer to it as a dungeon?"


Most of my posts reside in the DB. I had questions for Stephanie D that I posted down there, and she never answered me perhaps because she did not want to, but I suspected that she might not have read that post. (in fact, I don't check it regularly, and if she responded weeks later, I would not know it).

stefanie d, when she reads the dho forum, reads it via the 'recent posts' page, and so she was no less likely to have read your posted questions to her than if the thead (that those questions were posted in) had been in the (then-called) 'actualism/actual freedom' forum.


Gardol U. Yack:

Some people here don't read the battleground posts.

while technically this may be true for 'some people' (as no more than 2 people are needed to satisfy that condition), the overwhelming majority of respondents to my quick survey (which was made, and kept as, a 'sticky' thread for about a year, beginning october last year) read the forum via the 'recent posts' page and, as such, are no less likely to read posts located in the 'dharma battleground' category than those located anywhere else.


Gardol U. Yack:

Sometimes I don't check it for months and find some surprising gold there. If they already have made up their minds about actualism they may just avoid the DB to keep pesky questions out of their minds and maintain motivation to practice. I understand that part, but still the censorship annoys me.

could your surprise at finding valuable posts ('gold') in the 'dharma battleground' category be telling of a pre-conceived notion that you may have arrived to the dho with - namely, that controversial discussions and debates are unlikely to be valuable? if so, realise that your notion about them is not shared by either the founder/owner of this website or by those who actively administer it, for were it to be, there would simply be no discussion category for such controversy at all. however, having seen, over the first year and a half of the dho's existence (when it resided at a forum-hosting website called wetpaint), controversial discussions and debates derail highly practical and practice-oriented threads time and time again, the founder/owner - daniel ingram - thought it better to include, in the new site's set of discussion categories (which are mostly divided by styles of practice), one category specifically for controversial discussions and debates, so that such discussions and debates may have a place on the forum without disrupting its primary focus - namely, practical and directly practice-related discussion (another category, 'theoreticians & traditionalists', was created for a similar purpose). going by the majority of your posts to date, which (save for your reply to beoman's practice thread) are not practice-related in nature, you are either unfamiliar with the dho's purpose or apt to forget it when you post. if the former is the case, you might read the dho frequently asked questions page to familiarise yourself with the site's focus, and possibly lurk more to get a sense of it in action. if the latter is the case, you might ask yourself, every time you are about to post to a thread located in one of the practice-oriented forum categories, whether or not not what you are contributing is relevant to that category and/or thread. note that the answer to the question 'what is appropriate here?' in the faq contains the following stand-alone line: 'Good guidelines are: keep it simple, practice-related, technical when in doubt.' i mention all this, of course, as you seem to be highly concerned with how your posts are categorised on the forum, and this information should give you a better idea of how to keep things more to your liking.

as for your annoyance about the effort at archival orderliness you perceive to be censorship: in examining the causal constituents of your sensate experience (as opposed to its narrative content), you may be able to discern that feelings arise, oft-times, in response to mental images, which are fabricated by memory, formed by memory, and, when they are not clearly comprehended, lead to further fabrication of images and feelings. if you are able to discern this here and now, that would relieve your burden of annoyance entirely. if you are unable to discern this here and now, and further, are unable to determine how such discernment here and now may be developed, may i suggest signing up for a 10-day vipassana course (perhaps in the goenka tradition)? were you to do so, and to scrupulously follow the simple practice instructions given for the entire 10 days of your time on it, you may develop the faculties that would enable you to discern this causal process, which in buddhist contexts is referred to as part of 'dependent origination'. such development is also likely to cause you to have more in common with other active participants here, many of whom are likely able to discern this process to some degree and are less likely to spend time fabricating feelings or dwelling on those feelings fabricated, and who (consequently, i would suggest) demonstrate a greater interest in pursuing the practice(s) of their choice than in debating the merits of practices they are not doing.

i offer this suggestion of a vipassana course off-handedly, by the way, assuming that you are of normal mental health, have no recent - either chronologically or contextually - history of psychosis, or severe depression, or any other condition which might cause you to be unable to adhere to the practice instructions given. should this assumption be incorrect, you might think twice about going on such a course, as their environments are fairly intensive and can be troubling, particularly when the instructions given are not followed.


Gardol U. Yack:

I purposefully tried to throw mostly "softballs" in this recent post in order to keep it out of the battleground, and I find it gratifying that it did not get sent there. Actually it surprises me somewhat, and makes me wonder if the censorship here has lightened up. It sure looks that way. Maybe you have taken over for Tarin? I have not noticed his heavy hand lately.

to my knowledge, the only administrative censorship that has ever occurred at the dho concerned the removal of private parties' personal (and in one case possibly legally confidential) information that was posted, without their consent, by other parties. any other censorship you might mean would seem to exist only, i'm somewhat sorry to say (as the saying has become cliche), in your imagination.

as for your posts being moved to the dhb category: the only instance this has occurred to date is in the case of this thread.


Gardol U. Yack:

Anyway, I don't like getting censored. It feels like punishment. So that, plus my (perhaps faulty) perception that few AF types would read posts in the DB led me to call it a dungeon.

I never have used the "recent posts page". Looks useful. Thanks.

is it possible that a faulty (affective) memory about what has occurred on the forum, which threads have been split or moved and when, might have had something to do with your perception too?

regardless, i am glad that beoman pointed you to the 'recent posts' page, as reading the forum this way for a while might do something to reset your (denigrating) impression of the 'dharma battleground' category.


Gardol U. Yack:

"Why do you call it "so called"?"

I think my post to Tarin answers that.
http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1859628
I prefer no hold barred fighting. I don't think he should say "flame wars" if he does not mean it.

the dharma battleground category was created by the site's owner, who also wrote its subtitle with what i presume was a touch of hyperbolic, tongue-in-cheek humour. your point regarding the use of the term 'flame wars' has been noted, however; after consulting with ingram to ensure that he had no objections, i have modified this subtitle to prevent a possible misunderstanding of the dhb's purpose and to remove a possible pretext for its abuse. the subtitle now reads: 'Here is where high controversy and heated debate should happen with all the compassion, listening, clarification, passion for the truth and intelligence you can muster.'


Gardol U. Yack:

Also, I don't like too much Political Correctness. When confrontation got heated in the "AF and jobs thread", I got a little reprimand from Tarin. I see this as hypocritical. People get away with insults all the time here. Look at some of the things members here, including Daniel, have said about Marius K.

had anyone else stated that they do not respect their fellow participants and had they called their fellow participants 'whining pussies' (as you did), i would have responded in the same way. had daniel ingram (as you have brought him up specifically) posted the same, i would have reminded him that such belligerent schoolyard taunts stand in direct violation of the dho mandate that he himself wrote:
DhO FAQ:

(...) be respectful, honest, kind and keep a focus of "what is useful and true as best I know" in the front of your mind and behave as if the people you are writing to are real people, with hearts, feelings, and life experiences that you likely know very little of, as this is the case.



Gardol U. Yack:

If I made some of those same comments about Daniel, I think I would earn another warning and my posts would go to the "battleground". The refs always favor the home team.

as you haven't made it clear what comments you are specifically referring to here, i cannot say anything meaningful in direct response.


Gardol U. Yack:

Also the censorship only takes care of direct or obvious insults, while polite insults and PC insults can carry the same sting, but those insults (again, usually from the "home team") get a pass.

outright insults are easier to moderate (via addressment) than veiled ones, and veiled insults are easier to imagine than outright ones.

tarin


Hi tarin,

You've made mountains out of molehills here, while saying nothing about the real mountains.
I think the time has come for me to depart from this list, but I wanted to reply to this post first. I wrote a rough draft weeks ago that I wanted to finish up, post, and then unsubscribe. But as the weeks passed, my interest in replying to you in my usual thorough and extensive manner has diminished to near zero.
Something has changed for me lately. As William Blake once said "If you screw around long enough, you'll eventually learn something". Or words to that effect.
I've recently learned to look at things more with the eyes of evolution. I see evolution happening all around me, restoring my optimism, especially regarding this whole enterprise called "Actual Freedom". I see now that I can leave AF in the capable hands of evolution.
For my part, evolution has given me new mission papers. Thank God.
I have to go.

Abide in wholeness,

Gardol Ulysses Yack