SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Sigma Tropic 7/13/22 12:21 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Edward 7/13/22 1:04 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Sigma Tropic 7/13/22 1:14 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers T DC 7/13/22 2:10 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers George S 7/13/22 1:34 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Edward 7/13/22 2:41 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers genaro 7/13/22 3:19 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers This very moment 7/13/22 4:23 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Sigma Tropic 7/13/22 6:21 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers George S 7/13/22 5:30 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/14/22 7:07 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers George S 7/14/22 8:45 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Chris M 7/14/22 9:02 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/14/22 10:10 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/14/22 10:28 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/14/22 1:40 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers genaro 7/14/22 11:47 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Sigma Tropic 7/14/22 12:25 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers genaro 7/14/22 3:15 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers George S 7/15/22 7:57 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/15/22 8:08 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Sigma Tropic 7/14/22 12:19 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers George S 7/14/22 1:10 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Olivier S 7/15/22 8:51 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/15/22 8:54 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Olivier S 7/15/22 8:55 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/15/22 9:00 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Olivier S 7/15/22 9:02 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/15/22 9:09 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Tara ☔️ 7/13/22 6:15 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Chris M 7/14/22 12:34 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/14/22 1:14 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers J W 7/14/22 12:36 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Chris M 7/14/22 12:37 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Chris M 7/15/22 9:06 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Olivier S 7/15/22 9:12 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Chris M 7/15/22 9:13 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/15/22 9:14 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Olivier S 7/15/22 9:21 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/16/22 3:54 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers metta m 7/15/22 1:14 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Ben Sulsky 7/18/22 10:36 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers T DC 7/18/22 12:34 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Chris M 7/18/22 2:08 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Daniel M. Ingram 7/18/22 4:00 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/18/22 4:27 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Sigma Tropic 7/24/22 8:07 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Adi Vader 7/19/22 8:45 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Chris M 7/19/22 8:47 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Adi Vader 7/19/22 8:56 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/19/22 10:28 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Ben Sulsky 7/19/22 2:18 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Sigma Tropic 7/23/22 1:10 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Sigma Tropic 7/24/22 7:32 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers George S 7/24/22 8:03 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Sigma Tropic 7/24/22 8:10 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/24/22 10:30 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/24/22 11:23 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Sigma Tropic 7/24/22 2:38 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers J W 7/24/22 2:50 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/24/22 3:06 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers T DC 7/24/22 8:55 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Chrollo X 7/24/22 3:50 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Griffin 7/25/22 3:27 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Griffin 7/25/22 4:19 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/25/22 6:14 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers genaro 7/24/22 2:29 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/24/22 3:43 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Sigma Tropic 7/24/22 7:47 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/24/22 10:09 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers J W 7/24/22 1:47 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Matt Jon Rousseau 7/24/22 2:09 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Chrollo X 7/24/22 3:29 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Chris M 7/24/22 4:48 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Josef C 7/25/22 6:08 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers genaro 7/25/22 8:25 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/25/22 9:24 AM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Monica R 7/29/22 8:31 PM
RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/30/22 7:13 AM
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Sigma Tropic, modified 2 Months ago at 7/13/22 12:21 PM
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SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 370 Join Date: 6/27/17 Recent Posts
The SigmaTropic Fraternity – Teacher Vetting Process

The SigmaTropic Fraternity will publish list of teachers who are approved and qualified to join the fraternity and will serve as key spiritual examples to the Fraternity. The approved teachers of the SigmaTropic fraternity are unusual men who have transcended identity and the basic requirement for a public endorsement of any teacher is the Arhatship attainment. We aim to clarify who are the teachers that have real spiritual attainment and provide a credible community opinion on the attainments of various teachers. Our collective opinions can be used to empower teachers we represent and teachers who represent us.  The endorsement of the SigmaTropic Fraternity will be a very valuable public endorsement and will function as a membership to a prestigious professional society. These teachers can publicly display their endorsement and it will signal a genuine integrity toward our core spiritual values. We are not large enough yet to have much influence, but as our numbers grow we will prove to be a powerful force for good in the dharma. 

These teachers will be extensively vetted through an internal interview and guest lectureship process, and a subsequent process of internal voting. We aim to clarify as a Fraternity who our spiritual representatives are, and we aim to distinguish and promote certain teachers. We are very discerning in the types of teachers that we endorse. 

Approved teacher embody the core values and mission of our fraternity, and we aim to establish a network of approved teachers to enrich and inform our spiritual mission. These teachers are spiritual examples to all of us. The Fraternity will serve as a fruitful student base for Approved teachers. These teachers will have a symbiotic and mutually beneficial relationship to the Fraternity. 
Edward, modified 2 Months ago at 7/13/22 1:04 PM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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I nominate Abre Fournier
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Sigma Tropic, modified 2 Months ago at 7/13/22 1:14 PM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Edward
I nominate Abre Fournier

Thank you for your nomination, the selection committee will meet according to the forthcoming schedule and her merits will be discussed and voted upon as a group. 

​​​​​​​
George S, modified 2 Months ago at 7/13/22 1:34 PM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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I nominate Frank Yang. He has a lot of masculine energy.
T DC, modified 2 Months ago at 7/13/22 2:10 PM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Sigma Tropic
Edward
I nominate Abre Fournier

Thank you for your nomination, the selection committee will meet according to the forthcoming schedule and her merits will be discussed and voted upon as a group. 
​​​​​​​


Translation - "I'll think about it".  Truly bringing new meaning to the word "commitee".
Edward, modified 2 Months ago at 7/13/22 2:41 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/13/22 2:41 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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My name is legion for we are many
genaro, modified 2 Months ago at 7/13/22 3:19 PM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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The approved teachers of the SigmaTropic fraternity are unusual men

I nominate SigmaTropic, yes he's unusual and by all reports male, but why should he be the only one not having his merits clarified and endorsed?
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This very moment, modified 2 Months ago at 7/13/22 4:23 PM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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I nominate the hype,  yet not too hyper-masculine OG Noah from the DhO.   
George S, modified 2 Months ago at 7/13/22 5:30 PM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Sam, if someone has transcended identity, why would they be interested in joining a group based on masculine identity?
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Tara ☔️, modified 2 Months ago at 7/13/22 6:15 PM
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I don't know you well sigma and I have not felt compelled to write on anyone's post because of my paucity of knowledge. 

I hope you feel better soon sigma. Sending you metta. 
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Sigma Tropic, modified 2 Months ago at 7/13/22 6:21 PM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Good choice thank you
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/14/22 7:07 AM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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And why would someone who talks about transcending biology invest so much in his own version of pseudobiology? Peculiar indeed. 
George S, modified 2 Months ago at 7/14/22 8:45 AM
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Maybe it's because Sam is a Dr. and has discovered the secret to Real Manhood:

Real manhood
Men,

We are a small movement at the moment, but I greatly appreciate your support as we bring back a sense of dignity and grace to the narrative surrounding men in our society. We are likely to face opposition along the way. Any truly extraordinary idea or movement is bound to face opposition. We are likely to face obstructions and obstacles to our practice strategies and our ideas. We should not view these obstructions, delays, and resistance as reason to stop, however. We view the resistance and obstruction as the very essence of the toxic attitudes we have come to oppose. These toxic, complacent, disempowering narratives of what spiritual practice is about, must be recognized and avoided at all costs. Spiritual teachers who do not mention or emphasize renunciation are not real spiritual teachers. We are real spiritual teachers who refuse compromise and reject the current status quo. We will not sit by while our institutional spiritual leadership leads us further and further into moral and spiritual decline. We must form our own movement, free from the influence of gain and loss, fame and blame.

In this community of men, you will network with like-minded men who want to live a different way. Men of dignity and poise, with a mission. We are on a mission to maximize our impact on the world. We are leaders and pioneers, and we are tired of political correctness and sugar coating our ideas. We want to attain the highest spiritual fruits and we will stop at nothing to do it.
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 7/14/22 9:02 AM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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 We want to attain the highest spiritual fruits and we will stop at nothing to do it.

​​​​​​​!!!
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/14/22 10:10 AM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Chris M
 We want to attain the highest spiritual fruits and we will stop at nothing to do it.

​​​​​​​!!!

!!! inded.

Also, I somehow suspect that’s not how to attain the highest spiritual fruits. Sounds like the anti-Buddha to me… 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/14/22 10:28 AM
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...or like the ferengi. Lead by the grand nagus himself. 
genaro, modified 2 Months ago at 7/14/22 11:47 AM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Found it at last!

All this talk of 'Men' reminded me of a song I heard a long time ago: 'Men' by Martin Mull.

You can sing along here.  You can search for audio/ youtube but i can't get any of them to play, but as i remember the production values were of the highest quality.

I think the point is that everything contains the seeds of its own destruction and if you go ardent masculinity then you end up in some kind of 'sissy fuss', pushing a stone up a hill forever ... never mind being vunerable to the feminine.

Oh Sheet! i've done gone equated greek myths with the Tao.  I meant to keep this low brow. :-(
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Sigma Tropic, modified 2 Months ago at 7/14/22 12:19 PM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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George, you must really have some weird affinity for me to keep re-posting my literature everywhere. I like the enthusiasm. Thanks!<br /><br /> 
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Sigma Tropic, modified 2 Months ago at 7/14/22 12:25 PM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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genaro
Found it at last!

All this talk of 'Men' reminded me of a song I heard a long time ago: 'Men' by Martin Mull.

You can sing along here.  You can search for audio/ youtube but i can't get any of them to play, but as i remember the production values were of the highest quality.

I think the point is that everything contains the seeds of its own destruction and if you go ardent masculinity then you end up in some kind of 'sissy fuss', pushing a stone up a hill forever ... never mind being vunerable to the feminine.

Oh Sheet! i've done gone equated greek myths with the Tao.  I meant to keep this low brow. :-(

This is ridiculous. You obviously have it in your mind that I'm doing something wrong here. You're mistaken Gennaro and that is not my message. I actually oppose this "ardent masculinity" idea that you seem to be conflating with renunciation in the context of spiritual practice. Yoga teachers- women yoga teachers - will tell you that renunciation and brahmacharya is a core principle of yoga, get your facts straight. And have a look at the Pali Canon's commentary on sex and sex desire and celibacy among other topics. You all just ignore the message and attack the messenger that's really mature. 
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 7/14/22 12:34 PM
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Sam, the issue is either you really are misogynistic or that you need to edit what you write, or have someone else read it and edit it. Because what you write in your manifestos sounds very misogynistic. Maybe you know what you want to say but it's coming across in  a different way. So I'm in the same place genaro and pretty much everyone else here is in regard to your meaning.
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J W, modified 2 Months ago at 7/14/22 12:36 PM
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I nominate Jesus, Tutteji Wachtmeister, Joe Rogan and the Dalai Lama
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 7/14/22 12:37 PM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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I nominate Puppetji.
George S, modified 2 Months ago at 7/14/22 1:10 PM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Sigma Tropic
George, you must really have some weird affinity for me to keep re-posting my literature everywhere. I like the enthusiasm. Thanks!<br /><br /> 
​​​​​​​Frankly I'm concerned for you and anyone else you might draw into this. It sounds like a nascent cult. I get that you feel disappointed about what happened at Cochise, but this is a really extreme way to react.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/14/22 1:14 PM
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And transphobic!
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/14/22 1:40 PM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö
...or like the ferengi. Lead by the grand nagus himself. 

Actually, that one was low. My bad.
genaro, modified 2 Months ago at 7/14/22 3:15 PM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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From my viewpoint 'renunciation' is a recent appearance in your output, I'm not conflating ardent masculinity with that, i can see no connection there. Previously before the fraternity you often mentioned your openess to a relationship with an attractive woman, so what's changed?  Renunciation did not get you where you are now, so how will it help anyone else?

IMHO 'ardent masculinity' is a good description of what you are promoting, there's little spiritual practice there. I predict you will be surrounded by gay men.

I've had many female yoga teachers  (and I can't recall any of them playing with thier hair),  and several male ones too, over the past few decades. None have advised me to live a spartan / celibate life. I have my own views on what yoga is and how to do it and 'facts' are just someone's opinion. The first one made a point about 'not mortifying the flesh', she was Irish and may have been dealing with a Catholic upbringing (driving the choice of words), but the message was clear.
George S, modified 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 7:57 AM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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genaro
IMHO 'ardent masculinity' is a good description of what you are promoting, there's little spiritual practice there. I predict you will be surrounded by gay men.

I had asked Sam about this on Reddit and he replied:

Sure, same sex attraction occurs. My fraternity is not likely to attract people with such an orientation.

Apparently gay men are not welcome either.

He’s talking out of both sides of his mouth. On one side he’s preaching renunciation and celibacy, on the other he’s promising enhanced sexual prowess:

Men who display masculine traits that suggest prosperity and security get women. Weak, indecisive, effeminate males don't. Women will tell you so and it's not them thinking of gender equality it's them responding to their natural female drives. It seems like we are condemning that from all directions. Brahmacharya is one tool to directly recapture a man's masculine drive.

I can attest that my techniques are attractors for women, I'm not lying to you.

​​​​​​​I predict that he will attract sexually frustrated straight men who want to be “successful”. If he keeps going with this then he will have to deal with the fallout between what “u/Deliver_DaGoods” has promised and what he can actually deliver. That’s how cults develop – the leader gets themself into a situation where they feel forced to keep making ever more extravagant promises in order to keep their disillusioned followers engaged.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 8:08 AM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Yuk... 

I would be worried that he would attract lots of misogynist incels if I thought enough of them would be seriously interested in spiritual development and in renunciating mundane pleasures. 

This Ferengi doesn't have the lobes for consistent business proposals, thankfully. 

​​​​​​​Homophobia too - yuk indeed!
Olivier S, modified 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 8:51 AM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 777 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
  This is ridiculous.

You guys are overreacting. There is no misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, or any other sorts of phobias in any of Sigma's posts that I can see...  

I find it strange and unfair that the man is being given so much shit for this. If you think this will not work, then why not let it fall out of its own accord ? And if it does work, and some people are looking for something like this, and they get benefits and don't harm others, then who are we to decide that this is not ok ?

We come here to read about practice and if we want to avoid reading sigma's posts then we are grown up enough to do so. I actually find it pretty entertaining what he is doing here, because I am not taking it too seriously. The level of reactivity being displayed here seems blown out of proportion. 

There is nothing illegal being done as far as I can tell here, right ? Then does it warrant repeatedly expressing disgust and disapproval ? Saying it once is enough, I should think. Right speech and all... There are many preposterous things in the world, lots of which are far worse than what's going on here.

No one is forced to join this club, just like no one is forced to join mensa, the triple nine society, the elite club of the arahats or my late grandmother's ladies' society, which she greatly enjoyed going to in her old age to play bridge with other widows...

Why not give the man a break and if this does turn out to become bad, then maybe someone could try to do something about it ? And if it doesn't, then so much the better.

Perhaps looking into why this is so triggering may be interesting ? Edit : I'll be honest, the gut feeling I'm getting is the off one I get when confronted with political ideology. I won't infer anything from this, it's just the feeling I'm getting : the dissonant sense of witnessing irrational collective outrage at something honestly not particularly shocking to me.

Edit 2 : From an americano- or eurocentric perspective, what sam is expressing may sound a bit macho ; however decentralizing the perspective would yield a different perspective. Look at Orthodox countries ? Mount Athos ? Most of the Arab world ? The male-female polarization is very strong. 

Finally, that it seems shocking to so many people that someone should suggest renouncing the world literally and not just figuratively within the context of spiritual discipline is just ... surprising, let's say. This is basically what every single spiritual vehicle recommends... 

Anyways, best wishes to all emoticon

O


  
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 8:54 AM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Some of us have read posts that he has deleted and/or posted elsewhere. I sincerely hope that we are overreacting, but I fear that we aren't. There are red alerts all over the place. This is already a very male-dominated forum, and I can understand how none of this feels threatening to you. I'm creeped out. 

Did you see his post about "toxic feminism" ruining the dharma? Have you seen how he blames media for transgender people existing? 
Olivier S, modified 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 8:55 AM
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In any case, this is just someone on the internet (no offense sam). There are many such people... Maybe we should just breath and calm down a bit, because the man has 9 followers on reddit (again, no offense meant). emoticon
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 9:00 AM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Easy for you to say, Olivier. I suppose you don't have a transgender kid and haven't had to watch your kid having to deal with prejudice like this in daily life? It's no picnic. 
Olivier S, modified 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 9:02 AM
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Did you see his post about "toxic feminism" ruining the dharma? Have you seen how he blames media for transgender people existing? 

So what ? The man can think as he wishes.

Also, toxic feminism does exist, it's not a crime to say it, it's just called being lucid. Just like toxic anything you can think of... Now I'm not saying it's "ruining the dharma", but whatever.

One example, not from dharma but relating to religious things : My brother's godfather is famous in the world of medieval christian singing. When they renewed the bells of the Notre-Dame cathedral in 2012, they named one of them after him - nice honorary gesture, rather inconspicuous politically, too... 

During the ceremony in Notre-Dame, a group of naked pussy-rioters interrupted the ceremony to protest patriarchy.

... ??? ... ??? See the point emoticon

 My brother's godfather's kids were there along with other kids probably. Lol. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 9:09 AM
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He can think as he wishes and I can think that it's creepy as fuck. 

I can also think that this kind of misguided biologism is in dire need of some thorough emptying out. 
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 9:06 AM
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Sam has posted some truly weird stuff lately. Will it change the course of history? Will it alter the dharma in any meaningful way? Will the sun rise in the west tomorrow? No, of course not. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with Sam posting it and others reacting to it.
Olivier S, modified 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 9:12 AM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Certainly, and I for one thought that his posts sent red flags from the very moment the lion roared - but the fact that this is taking up so much space seems to be blowing things out of proportion. Could be wrong, just me also expressing my opinion freely emoticon And I feel better for having said it !

Cheers 

​​​​​​​Olivier out !
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 9:13 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 9:13 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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You're just not into the drama!

​​​​​​​emoticon
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 9:14 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 9:14 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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I for one am very happy with how divinity is expressing itself in my very healthy boundaries. This disgust is empty aliveness manifesting the pure joy of coming into being. 
Olivier S, modified 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 9:21 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 9:17 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö
This disgust is empty aliveness manifesting the pure joy of coming into being. 


We have a punchline ! emoticon

Talking about the joy of coming into being, I've been really enjoying this guided meditation on texts by Longchenpa for the past some time.
metta m, modified 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 1:14 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/15/22 1:14 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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I have been a long time lurker here and derived a lot here for my own inner journey. Somehow, felt compelled enough to finally create an account and share this discourse. It felt very apt to the topic at hand.

​​​​​​​https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrt3T_6MAHE
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/16/22 3:54 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/16/22 3:54 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Thanks for the tip, Olivier! I might try it.

As for my reactions, the truth is that I have been thinking of Sam as a dharma friend, and his display of  views lately feel like a huge betrayal. Not saying that it is, just that it feels like it. I'm thoroughly disappointed, and I'm not sure which is the worst disappointment - the way he seems to look at women, gender fluid people and transgender people and his apparent contempt for what he sees as weakness, his clinging to those views without acknowledging the dukkha of it (and the harm in this so called relative world), or my own lack of judgement for ever trusting his advice. Part of it is how he really seems to think of this as improvement. It's not, Sam. And I don't think it's women's judgement you should worry about, but your own, because it seems that you don't believe that your own human-ness is enough. 
Ben Sulsky, modified 2 Months ago at 7/18/22 10:36 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/18/22 10:36 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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So when an already niche internet forum becomes a haven for unkind and exclusionary speech and recruitment into some kind of fraternity, I'm heading for the hills.  Not my thing, and I don't want to be around it!  Seems dangerous and not good!

There's a grandiosity thing happening that is concerning.  It's a stage of practice that seems to come up fairly often but has a lot of big time shadow sides and I hope it gets sorted out for ST soon.
T DC, modified 2 Months ago at 7/18/22 12:34 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/18/22 12:34 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Ben - hardly a haven, as this thread can attest.  No need to head for the hills at the moment.  ;)
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 7/18/22 2:08 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/18/22 2:08 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 4536 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
This has been an educational thread for a number of reasons. The DhO community has pushed back on the OP and its follow-ups, demonstrating a self-healing tendency.

​​​​​​​
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 2 Months ago at 7/18/22 4:00 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/18/22 4:00 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 3232 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
I personally am wary of things like Fraternities of Approved Teachers, and very wary of the male-only thing, and also find this moderately creepy.

Early on, the concept of Elders as an official DhO designation was promoted by some, and I was similarly super not into it.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/18/22 4:27 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/18/22 4:27 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Thankyou for clarifying your stance, Daniel! 

Yeah, I can see how a system of "certified" Elders could easily become toxic. I appreciate your choice very much. 
Adi Vader, modified 2 Months ago at 7/19/22 8:45 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/19/22 8:41 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 162 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
Full disclosure: Sam is a friend of mine. I like him and respect him.

Lets say that there are a whole bunch of 'men' out there in the world who feel emasculated, downtrodden, victimized by women or by society in general.
They go to some dude .. any dude ... in this case Sam ... who has competency in teaching and does in fact teach:

1. Shamatha, vipashyana in line with the Anapanasati Sutra, Satipatthana sutra
2. Body related practices - Zhang Zhuan (I know nothing about this, but seems helpful)

I think this would be a wonderful outcome indeed. For those men individually and society as a whole.
​​​​​​​The messaging and the tone is cringey af! ... I must say! emoticon emoticon

Its like the Cobra Kai school of awakening, I like it ... I don't like it .... I can't make up my mind.
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 7/19/22 8:47 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/19/22 8:46 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 4536 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Hmm... if Sam is your friend maybe you can talk to him about the cringy nature of his recent comments and the franticness of his life right now. Multiple people on several message boards have mentioned both to Sam, but to no avail.

​​​​​​​Just a thought.
Adi Vader, modified 2 Months ago at 7/19/22 8:56 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/19/22 8:56 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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I will write to him, and also speak to him.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/19/22 10:28 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/19/22 10:25 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I think the outcome would depend a lot on whether those men would cling to that polarized view or learn to see the emptiness of it. If he could help them get less polarized, then great! I would have no problem with that, but rather the opposite. In fact, I personally support men in that kind of development now and then, both in my work and in my private life. Not specifically with regard to awakening, but definitely to help them help themselves to suffer less (in some cases while also being less creepy to others). 

The way Sam's message has been framed in several posts, some of them now deleted, looked a lot like encouraging even more polarization. That's what creeped me (and several others) out. He has also expressed himself with certainty about two distinct sexes being a truth and claimed that divergences from that are distortions caused by media. That is incorrect and harmful. I don't have a problem with anyone wanting to embrace what to them is masculine qualities (as long as they don't harm others of course). If that's what they need to do for their wellbeing, then by all means - enjoy! What I have a problem with is the claim that "real" men are supposed to be in some specific way, and "real" women in some specific other way, and judging divergence from that as unnatural or unhealthy. 

Of course women can be abusive too. It would be ignorant to suggest otherwise. However, there is a big difference between acknowledging nuances and specifically addressing some neglected part of the bigger picture on the one hand, and on the other hand to turn the table over and have it sound like women are structurally oppressing men - and in doing so, also claiming that feminism is screwing up the dharma. I mean, what the fuck? This makes me furious! I mean seriously, you guys can't be that clueless?

If I were to write down all the times I have been sexually assaulted by men or boys in some way or met with less respect than I would have been if I had been seen as a man or boy, I wouldn't have time to do anything else. Seriously. And yet I'm one of the lucky ones! (Socialization of gender roles didn't quite take in my case, as I never really understood the point, and that has saved me from a lot of trouble while getting me into some other trouble.) It seems like men just don't get this. They don't see it. While most men are decent and wouldn't dream of assaulting anyone or knowingly treat anyone worse because of their sex/gender, they just don't notice how pervasive the inequality is. They don't live that experience. I do. With that in mind, the way Sam has framed his project comes across like "All lives matter" in relation to "Black lives matter". He did in fact express himself in a way that sounded like the fraternity would be comparable to movements for colored people. He edited that after I had pointed it out. 

Another aspect of this is that frantic quality mentioned. If that's a product of his energy practice, then I'm not sure it would be such a good idea to teach that to men who hate women. Can you see my point? Energy practices, some of them anyway, can make people unstable and, well, frantic, especially if they are already unstable in some way, which is probably the case for men who feel emasculated, downtrodden and victimized. Pouring more energy into that seems unwise to me. Now I don't know enough about his specific energy practices to say whether they would have that effect, but he himself did say that this came about in a surge of creative energy thanks to his energy practices. Hence my concern. 

Despite being angry about this, I do think it's great that Sam has a friend like you to be there for him. Sam has been kind and helpful to me, so I know that there is a decent human being in there, and I don't want that being to be hurt or alienated. The situation just calls for wrathful aspects of my inner Buddha nature to come forth, the way I see it. I believe that he could actually resonate with that, at least if it weren't about him. 
Ben Sulsky, modified 2 Months ago at 7/19/22 2:18 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/19/22 2:17 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö


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Sigma Tropic, modified 2 Months ago at 7/23/22 1:10 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/23/22 1:10 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Thanks Oliver and Adi for defending my honor. 
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Sigma Tropic, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 7:32 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 7:26 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 370 Join Date: 6/27/17 Recent Posts
I don't like internet drama, and I was never trying to personally insult anyone in this thread, and yet people felt the need to continually tell me I'm an ass or a Ferengi or whatever other ghoul-like creature who is morally corrupt and greedy. I don't understand why I have gotten this kind of reaction but it really kinda just proves my point - no one even mentioned the whole time in this smear fest, anything about the substance of what I said. So it's kind of disappointing and I don't really know what to say but in my defense I will clarify my views on transgender people, gender fluid people, and feminism here:

Transgender people exist and some of them suffer a lot on account of being transgender. I have personally witnessed this suffering myself in friends. And it is an identity stuggle for sure. So having a positive model/system of male development is good and there are several guys that might be gay that have come to me and I don't really care to ask most people about their sexual orientation when I coach meditation, but yes gay guys are welcome. And for the record there are plenty of men's only groups like I've said- that doesn't make me a misogynist. And there is nothing wrong with advocating for a particular identity - we are not hurting anyone and I haven't said one harsh word about any one person or group, so I will not stand for this mischaracterization. 

My opinion is that transgender people and the modern media are two interrelated phenomena. That's all I said. That's not misogyny. Maybe I'm wrong. Ok. But I don't deserve this barrage of attacks and in my defense, I don't owe anyone an apology for simply advocating a particular view. That view has nothing to do with misogyny or hate, and I don't have hate or ill will in my heart or mind. 
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Sigma Tropic, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 7:47 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 7:47 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 370 Join Date: 6/27/17 Recent Posts
I will elaborate said view here. 

Men have the opportunity to charge certain energy and store it, and there are certain aspects of tantric practice that really only become possible with some preliminary training. So like think of it like this:

Therevada path is about overcoming sensual desire and ill will and suffering. Craving is the source of suffering so we try to eliminate craving. So you have the practices like celibacy and only eating before noon and things like that- we are challenging the mind. With the modern comforts we have, there are sources of craving everywhere, so in Buddhist thought, you can attentuate and eventually uproot completely this craving and aversion. 

After that, then there is perfect non dual awareness and there is an aspect of reality that one starts to tap into, there is an automatic energetic exchange process going on between the being and the universe, and the net result is the dissipation of energy and awakening. So being fully non dual and without any suffering, it doesn't make sense to renunciate sensual desires, because we see through it. But to get to the non dual awareness they may have had to do a temporary renunciation period. So it's like the raft- you can let go. 

It's the same way with views. You all are assuming I'm clinging to a view- I'm not. I take views and pick them up and use them, then put them back down again. This is what insight allows you to do. So this view that you all are assigning to me- it's your view. I was using a view that has energy behind it- there are plenty of other views. So you all insulting me for a view I don't even hold kinda from here just looks like you all insulting your own mental projection of me. 

It's the same way with practices - like temproary renunciation. See from the worldly dualistic viewpoint you are assuming permanence or that the practice implies something permanent about one's view doing the practice. That's not true- a person who has transcended identity can use whatever identity they want- they have mastered the phenomenon of identification so much they can appear to identify with any view - actually that's a key part of my training - identity and how to be fluid in your identity. So these are just some thoughts on this whole things feel free to ignore. But I'm fine, actually feel much better having laid this all out. 
George S, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 8:03 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 8:03 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 2555 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Sigma Tropic
I don't like internet drama
​​​​​​​The obvious answer would be to refrain from posting inflammatory stuff on the internet.
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Sigma Tropic, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 8:07 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 8:05 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 370 Join Date: 6/27/17 Recent Posts
Chris M This has been an educational thread for a number of reasons. The DhO community has pushed back on the OP and its follow-ups, demonstrating a self-healing tendency.
Chis, I'm glad you found the thread educational- what can I say, I am a teacher after all. Please stay tuned on the site where I will continue to expound the most supramundane of dharmas. 
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Sigma Tropic, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 8:10 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 8:10 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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George S
Sigma Tropic
I don't like internet drama
​​​​​​​The obvious answer would be to refrain from posting inflammatory stuff on the internet.

Thanks George for your input
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 10:30 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 10:00 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Sigma Tropic
I don't like internet drama, and I was never trying to personally insult anyone in this thread, and yet people felt the need to continually tell me I'm an ass or a Ferengi or whatever other ghoul-like creature who is morally corrupt and greedy. I don't understand why I have gotten this kind of reaction but it really kinda just proves my point - no one even mentioned the whole time in this smear fest, anything about the substance of what I said. So it's kind of disappointing and I don't really know what to say but in my defense I will clarify my views on transgender people, gender fluid people, and feminism here:

Transgender people exist and some of them suffer a lot on account of being transgender. I have personally witnessed this suffering myself in friends. And it is an identity stuggle for sure. So having a positive model/system of male development is good and there are several guys that might be gay that have come to me and I don't really care to ask most people about their sexual orientation when I coach meditation, but yes gay guys are welcome. And for the record there are plenty of men's only groups like I've said- that doesn't make me a misogynist. And there is nothing wrong with advocating for a particular identity - we are not hurting anyone and I haven't said one harsh word about any one person or group, so I will not stand for this mischaracterization. 

My opinion is that transgender people and the modern media are two interrelated phenomena. That's all I said. That's not misogyny. Maybe I'm wrong. Ok. But I don't deserve this barrage of attacks and in my defense, I don't owe anyone an apology for simply advocating a particular view. That view has nothing to do with misogyny or hate, and I don't have hate or ill will in my heart or mind. 


The view that you are presenting here still sounds exactly like what I feared most, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. What are you saying? Exactly how would ”positive model/system of male development” help a transgirl or transwoman who was assigned male at birth? It is your opinion that transgender development is something that has developed because of media (at least you have said that; of course you have the right to change your mind, so if you don’t agree with that wording anymore, then great). However, science (metastudies going through the available evidence) says that the most probable cause for being transgender is that the fetus development was geared towards one of the two simplified sexes (biology acknowledges that there are actually many different sexes if we are to go into the biological details), and then for some reason, the rest of the development switched into another gear. The brain was thus predisposed for a specific hormone development during puberty, and when a different development happens, the brain reacts with dysphoria. That’s a biological and chemical cause.

If your view (note that I’m saying ”if”!) is that you can socialize people into not being transgender, that’s not misogynist (those reactions from people were based on other things you wrote, about women), but it is harmful for transgender people. You will not be allowed to market anything that resembles conversion therapy on this forum. Not on my watch. And that's not a huge impingement. It should actually be quite easy to talk about male-specific practices without making any statements about transgender people.

Similarly, it should be easy enough to talk about male-specific practices without describing women as a kind of being that enjoys playing with their hair (when they are not destroying the dharma) or objectifying them as some prize to men who restrict their ejaculations long enough. Just have a friend have a look at your text before publishing it, for crying out loud - that would save you lots of trouble. 

I agree that the ferengi stuff was low, and I’m sorry about that. I was terrified and that was my way of dealing with my fear, admittedly not a skillful one. I was hoping that you were harmless just as Olivier suggested, and ferengi turned out being seen as so harmless that the Star Trek producers had to invent the borg instead. Ferengi aren’t as bad as they sound. They say all kinds of offensive stuff, but don’t really harm anyone, and can be fun to be around. You are not harmless. You actually teach people who are searching for answers. You can do real harm. I’m taking you seriously here. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t bother being concerned about it.

Harm can be done without ill will. It often is.


​​​​​​​ 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 10:09 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 10:09 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Sigma Tropic
I will elaborate said view here. 

Men have the opportunity to charge certain energy and store it, and there are certain aspects of tantric practice that really only become possible with some preliminary training. So like think of it like this:

Therevada path is about overcoming sensual desire and ill will and suffering. Craving is the source of suffering so we try to eliminate craving. So you have the practices like celibacy and only eating before noon and things like that- we are challenging the mind. With the modern comforts we have, there are sources of craving everywhere, so in Buddhist thought, you can attentuate and eventually uproot completely this craving and aversion. 

After that, then there is perfect non dual awareness and there is an aspect of reality that one starts to tap into, there is an automatic energetic exchange process going on between the being and the universe, and the net result is the dissipation of energy and awakening. So being fully non dual and without any suffering, it doesn't make sense to renunciate sensual desires, because we see through it. But to get to the non dual awareness they may have had to do a temporary renunciation period. So it's like the raft- you can let go. 

It's the same way with views. You all are assuming I'm clinging to a view- I'm not. I take views and pick them up and use them, then put them back down again. This is what insight allows you to do. So this view that you all are assigning to me- it's your view. I was using a view that has energy behind it- there are plenty of other views. So you all insulting me for a view I don't even hold kinda from here just looks like you all insulting your own mental projection of me. 

It's the same way with practices - like temproary renunciation. See from the worldly dualistic viewpoint you are assuming permanence or that the practice implies something permanent about one's view doing the practice. That's not true- a person who has transcended identity can use whatever identity they want- they have mastered the phenomenon of identification so much they can appear to identify with any view - actually that's a key part of my training - identity and how to be fluid in your identity. So these are just some thoughts on this whole things feel free to ignore. But I'm fine, actually feel much better having laid this all out. 


Can I ask you, when you pick up a view that has lots of energy behind it - what happens if your students won’t succeed in emptying it out? How will their reality manifest?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 11:23 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 11:21 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I had written a reply to your reply to my post above, which you have now deleted, Sam. I thought that post from you clarified a lot, so I don't know why you took it away. 

This is my reply:

I believe you.

I used to have the same opinion, and it was luck rather than skill that I didn't make any public statements about it. Then I got to know more transgender people and heard many of them witness that hormone therapy was the only thing that stopped the dysphoria that had made them suicidal for years. I have seen the same development in my own kid. And I have read scientific reviews. I'm also regularly meeting with medical professionals about it, so this is all very much a part of my daily life. 

The development here in Sweden has been that surgery is no longer required. Not that long ago, the law forced transgender people to have surgery, based on taboo with regard to anything outside the box. I think we are in agreement that forcing anyone to have surgery is harmful. The way I see it, it is helpful to allow many different ways of being male and many different ways of being female, as well as anything between, so that nobody has to change because of people's prejudice, but can focus on their own wellbeing (that's a view). Puberty without treatment can be a change against someone's will, and some of that change is irreversible (that's a fact).

I didn't think you were looking to intentionally harm anyone. I believe you when you say that you want to help people. And when you acknowledge that you don't know, that makes a big difference in my book. 

I'm still wondering about the "toxic feminism" part in another thread, the post that you deleted. Were you talking about some specific version of feminism, or feminism as a whole? That specific way of framing your fraternity idea was probably one of the things that people reacted to most. Were you just picking up a view that had lots of energy behind it there, as described below? If so, why did you choose that specific framing? Aren't there any avaliable views with lots of energy that aren't in opposition to feminism? Just trying to understand, honestly. 
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J W, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 1:47 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 1:47 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 610 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
ST - when you say things like the following:

"Thanks Oliver and Adi for defending my honor."

"So you all insulting me for a view I don't even hold kinda from here just looks like you all insulting your own mental projection of me. "

It indicates to me that it is in fact you who is assuming the view, temporarily or not, that you are being personally attacked, and that there is some sort of battle going on here with one side on your defense, the other against.  Seems to me there is no sort of personal attacks going on here.  Please excuse my joke from earlier if that came across the wrong way.

Best wishes
JW
Matt Jon Rousseau, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 2:09 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 2:09 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 80 Join Date: 5/1/22 Recent Posts
What is this fraternity.  Is it an online meditation schools. That could be good
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Sigma Tropic, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 2:38 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 2:26 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 370 Join Date: 6/27/17 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö

I'm still wondering about the "toxic feminism" part in another thread, the post that you deleted. Were you talking about some specific version of feminism, or feminism as a whole? That specific way of framing your fraternity idea was probably one of the things that people reacted to most. Were you just picking up a view that had lots of energy behind it there, as described below? If so, why did you choose that specific framing? Aren't there any avaliable views with lots of energy that aren't in opposition to feminism? Just trying to understand, honestly. 

Regardiung toxic feminism: 
Yes there is such a thing, and it's when women treat men like objects and assign stereotypes to men and devalue them. And that attitude is the fuel for the  oppression of certain groups - namely , the beta male types who are easily brainwashed ... see even this alpha beta male thing that someone posted on - isn't that just trivializing men and objectifying them with stereotypes? I mean, the "beta males" the less assertive types are so easily led around by women because they are socially sanctioned, but the women have gotten too comfortable and too cocky and when that goes unchecked you get commercials of dudes licking other dude's fingers and that somehow being acceptable. On the Superbowl. 

Doritos "Finger Lick" Super Bowl 45 Commercial 2011 - YouTube

Yeah. Gross. I'm sorry, but this is what I'm talking about. These are clearly media forces at play - this was on the Super Bowl and it sends a clear message- gay stupid white man licking the fingers of smart capable black dude. This is an example of the propaganda that I oppose.  

Regarding my view:
Well the reason I chose that framing is because there is the bittnerness and anger there and in my personal experience I have found that there are energetic principles and one can learn to channel the energy into something useful. With other practice topics, there isn't as much energy behind it. I can see how you would be cautious about me teaching people how to channel their incel rage for women into enlightenment, but if these poor men find a way and a method to channel that energy they may be less likely to direct their rage at women, and they can use their frustration as fuel and they can improve their well-being- I'm all for it.

But the celibabacy and retention of semen for men it is accumulation of assets basically and there is a school of thought whereby the man's semen is a magical substance and conserving and retaining this vital essence, according to the lore, makes a man more charming, more focused, more resilient, more fearless. After 12 years of perfect brahmacharya, the man is said to grow another nerve and there are reports of siddhis and unusual abilities that are not easily explained (magick). And so they believe this view that the semen contains the most valuable essence of man, and it plays on our need for accumulation and assets. And when the view is reinforced by a group it makes it have more power and more intention behind it. And the only thing that's gonna motivate a group of men is creating things or pursuing sex, and if you renounce sex temporarily, then you have to tell them all that there semen is a magical substance in order to motivate them. 

For a man to conserve and not ejaculate, there is a hormonal process that happens, and if he also does thought restraint, this meditator can get direct insights into craving - which is the cause of suffering. He sees his normal processes and observes. So the energy there is kind of a capitalist - inspired accumulation mindset. This is actually not too unfamiliar, as accumulation stage practices in Tibetan Buddhism go on the principle of building karma, which is similar to the dynamic for retaining seed. All that intention for selfish plesasure gets channeled into divine action, creative drive, and fearlessness.  I hope this answers your question sort of. 
genaro, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 2:29 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 2:29 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 126 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
The development here in Sweden has been that surgery is no longer required. Not that long ago, the law forced transgender people to have surgery

This one's off the scale! I'm horrified that people will subject themselves or others to the knife on account of some kind of unhappiness.  Is this forum not generally focussed on dealing with sensory reality and not reacting in a bad way to it??

Puberty without treatment can be a change against someone's will

how would you class getting old?

(not really asking for an answer,  i just think there's more creepiness in this rabbit hole the deeper it goes)
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J W, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 2:50 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 2:50 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Doritos "Finger Lick" Super Bowl 45 Commercial 2011 - YouTube

Yeah. Gross. I'm sorry, but this is what I'm talking about. These are clearly media forces at play - this was on the Super Bowl and it sends a clear message- gay stupid white man licking the fingers of smart capable black dude. This is an example of the propaganda that I oppose.  



LOL - wait... what? [Doritos have entered the chat]

Seriously though, how is that gross... how are you so repulsed by the sight of a man licking Doritos off another man's finger?

And that made you think of... what exactly? Actually... don't answer that emoticon
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 3:06 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 3:06 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Dude, have you seen the commercials objectifying women? Commercials in general are crap. Objectification is always crappy, except when there is mutual consent about it (there might be exceptions that would still be crappy, not going to write an essay on this). 

I'm not sure I believe in alfa and beta. That stuff seems oversimplified to me. 

I don't agree that women as a group have become too cocky. There will always be individual assholes, in all kinds of groups, and that includes assholes that use feminism as an excuse to be crappy. That's bad.  However, in general, I'd say that women are still held back structurally. There are men who feel threatened by women gaining more confidence, sure, but that doesn't mean that they are right.

I don't understand this whole war between the sexes thing. Why does any one of them have to lead the other one around? Can't we all just walk where we want, in company when that is what we wish for, and on our own when that is what we wish for? And can't people just lick whichever fingers they wish to lick? Why would that even be humiliating? If you don't like it, don't do it. I licked some fingers this morning. Didn't feel humiliated at all. It was a mutual thing. 

You did answer my question, and I thank you for that. I can see a logic in that, sort of. It still seems kind of shaky to me, but I'm just one person on the internet. 

My tibetan lama says that the sacred liquid is not sperm, but the fruit of mutual enjoyment in the yabyum. I prefer that interpretation, but to each their own. 

May your teachings benefit all beings! 
Chrollo X, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 3:29 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 3:29 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 60 Join Date: 1/11/22 Recent Posts
Seeking to help redirect misplaced incel energy into healing would definitely be a welcome contribution at least in America as far as I know. I feel like focusing on men who are looking to dig deep into their emotions and beliefs is much needed today especially in this climate of men's mental health. I agree though that making it some sort of opposition to feminist propaganda is unhelpful. True feminism isn't in opposition to men. I think you know that since you qualified by saying what you're really against is toxic feminism. I think what you're doing is in a different world than the toxic redpill content on the internet is doing to men. I find it curious how people here are wary of men only groups and not women only groups. They already successfully exist in many different forms. I mean this forum is like 95% men. Most dharma Zoom meetings in prag dharma are loaded with men lmao...
T DC, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 8:55 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 3:38 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 473 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
Sigma Tropic
Regardiung toxic feminism: 
Yes there is such a thing, and it's when women treat men like objects and assign stereotypes to men and devalue them. And that attitude is the fuel for the  oppression of certain groups - namely , the beta male types who are easily brainwashed ... see even this alpha beta male thing that someone posted on - isn't that just trivializing men and objectifying them with stereotypes? I mean, the "beta males" the less assertive types are so easily led around by women because they are socially sanctioned, but the women have gotten too comfortable and too cocky and when that goes unchecked you get commercials of dudes licking other dude's fingers and that somehow being acceptable. On the Superbowl. 

Doritos "Finger Lick" Super Bowl 45 Commercial 2011 - YouTube

Yeah. Gross. I'm sorry, but this is what I'm talking about. These are clearly media forces at play - this was on the Super Bowl and it sends a clear message- gay stupid white man licking the fingers of smart capable black dude. This is an example of the propaganda that I oppose.  

Regarding my view:
Well the reason I chose that framing is because there is the bittnerness and anger there and in my personal experience I have found that there are energetic principles and one can learn to channel the energy into something useful. With other practice topics, there isn't as much energy behind it. I can see how you would be cautious about me teaching people how to channel their incel rage for women into enlightenment, but if these poor men find a way and a method to channel that energy they may be less likely to direct their rage at women, and they can use their frustration as fuel and they can improve their well-being- I'm all for it.

But the celibabacy and retention of semen for men it is accumulation of assets basically and there is a school of thought whereby the man's semen is a magical substance and conserving and retaining this vital essence, according to the lore, makes a man more charming, more focused, more resilient, more fearless. After 12 years of perfect brahmacharya, the man is said to grow another nerve and there are reports of siddhis and unusual abilities that are not easily explained (magick). And so they believe this view that the semen contains the most valuable essence of man, and it plays on our need for accumulation and assets. And when the view is reinforced by a group it makes it have more power and more intention behind it. And the only thing that's gonna motivate a group of men is creating things or pursuing sex, and if you renounce sex temporarily, then you have to tell them all that there semen is a magical substance in order to motivate them. 

For a man to conserve and not ejaculate, there is a hormonal process that happens, and if he also does thought restraint, this meditator can get direct insights into craving - which is the cause of suffering. He sees his normal processes and observes. So the energy there is kind of a capitalist - inspired accumulation mindset. This is actually not too unfamiliar, as accumulation stage practices in Tibetan Buddhism go on the principle of building karma, which is similar to the dynamic for retaining seed. All that intention for selfish plesasure gets channeled into divine action, creative drive, and fearlessness.  I hope this answers your question sort of. 

Dude it's just some goofy comercial. Yes, it's gross to lick other people's fingers, but I think you're reading A LOT into it (i.e. projecting). And the language you used to describe the issues (bolded above) suggests you not only have issues with women, but also gay men and black people?  Like wtf.  It may not be your intent, but that's how it comes across.  

Retention of semen is nothing new, just look at Taoist systems.  Traditionally however, these practices are not paired with extreme incell views.  Bringing a twisted social mentality to an energetically powerful meditative practice - obviously this could produce issues, as others have suggested.

What got me in your initial posts (now deleted), which I have not seen you address, was how the #metoo movement was contributing to the decline of the dharma.  Broadly speaking, it's hard to deny the net benefit of the "me too" movement, unless you happen to like rapists in positions of power (including dharma teachers) going virtually unchecked for decades.  Can it potentially go overboard and unfairly tank the reputation of innocent individuals - absolutely.  But personally I would rather endure some inevitable social chaos than see widespread sexual harrassment be swept under the rug for the foreseeable future, which is frankly absolutely unconscionable.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 3:43 PM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
genaro
The development here in Sweden has been that surgery is no longer required. Not that long ago, the law forced transgender people to have surgery

This one's off the scale! I'm horrified that people will subject themselves or others to the knife on account of some kind of unhappiness.  Is this forum not generally focussed on dealing with sensory reality and not reacting in a bad way to it??

Puberty without treatment can be a change against someone's will

how would you class getting old?

(not really asking for an answer,  i just think there's more creepiness in this rabbit hole the deeper it goes)


Of course forcing transgender people to have surgery is off scale. That’s what I said.

I’m not going to allow a debate here about whether or not people should have surgery by their own choices. That’s really none of our business.

I would say that getting old is often better than the alternative. Sometimes there are ways to make the process more comfortable.
Chrollo X, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 3:50 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 3:50 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 60 Join Date: 1/11/22 Recent Posts
Yeah using that Doritos commerical was a weird example and I busted out laughing. That's just a"bro did you just lick my finger moment". Definitely a lot fo reading into it for sure lmao!
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 4:48 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/24/22 4:48 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 4536 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Sigmatropic, you have dug a hole for yourself. I'm surprised, disappointed, and saddened that you don't see how this hole got started. Can you consider a new course of action? Rather than continuing to dig this hole deeper as you reply with additional material in the same vein, you could just stop digging. I can see from your recent comments that you are in a defensive mindset and stuck in the "me versus them" view of this situation. You got the reactions you got because of what you posted, not because of who you are. I doubt anyone wishes you ill. What I see people are telling you is apt and is said with good intentions. I'm saying this in another attempt to stop the problem from worsening. This is out of honest concern for your well-being.
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Griffin, modified 2 Months ago at 7/25/22 3:27 AM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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gay stupid white man licking the fingers of smart capable black dude. This is an example of the propaganda that I oppose.  

wtf
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Griffin, modified 2 Months ago at 7/25/22 4:19 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/25/22 4:19 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 226 Join Date: 4/7/18 Recent Posts
I don't think that it's psychologically healthy to be overly attached to your gender identity. I would propose the same recommendation to both hyper-masculine groups and transgender movements. 

Just as your genitals are not the essence of your body, but just one of its elements, your gender is not the essence of your being. 

It's even more unhealthy to define your whole identity by the opposition to your oppressor (whether the opressor is completely real or imagined/exaggerated).

Unfortunately, masculinist movements usually do exhibit this kind of toxicity (manosphere, redpill etc.) Jordan Peterson's embarrassment on Twitter is the most recent example: an otherwise brilliant mind lost in hatred and obsession about what transgenders do with their body parts.

Toxic masculinism and toxic feminism are mirror images of each other, and we need to outgrow them both, going in the direction of love, maturity and parent-like empathy for all sides.
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Josef C, modified 2 Months ago at 7/25/22 6:08 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/25/22 6:08 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 83 Join Date: 6/16/20 Recent Posts
This is a shit sandwich . I was surprised by some eyebrow raising things said by SigmaTropic. I will just leave with a quote from the Saññoga Sutta here :

"A man does not attend inwardly to his masculine faculties... masculine charms. He is not excited by that, not delighted by that... does not attend outwardly to feminine faculties... feminine charms. He is not excited by that, not delighted by that... does not want to be bonded to what is outside him, does not want whatever pleasure & happiness that arise based on that bond. Not delighting, not caught up in his masculinity, a man does not go into bondage with reference to women. This is how a man transcends his masculinity."This is how there is lack of bondage. And this is the Dhamma discourse on bondage & lack of bondage."
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/25/22 6:14 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/25/22 6:11 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I believe that we are somewhere on the same page here, Griffin. 

I haven't seen much of transgender movements, though, only individual transgender people trying to live their own lives in a way that won't make them want to kill themselves while also having to watch out for the hatred/fear/prejudice/uncomfortableness from others. It's really bizarre how so many people are obsessed by the shape of other people's (strangers'!) genitals. (And of course there might be movements that I'm not aware of, just sharing my experience from Sweden).

The nuance that I try to balance on is seeing the structural inequalities that do exist with regard to different intersections, and trying to do something about it when I can, without getting stuck in polarized stories that solidify suffering. I also try do bring love and compassion into it rather than fear (although when people are threatening my child, or someone who could have been my child for that matter, I become a lioness; feel free to substitute that for any animal gender role that would display a similar behavior). 
genaro, modified 2 Months ago at 7/25/22 8:25 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/25/22 8:25 AM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 126 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
I'm going to recuse myself from this thread after this ....

FWIW i just wondered how 'semen retention' could work and quickly worked out that it's likely sucked into the bladder, and pissed out later on; so no conservation of vitality/ accumulation of assets ...  the 'essence of a man' has echoes of 'the homonculus' that earnest gentlemen of science could see in thier early miscroscopes, that persuaded them that women were just passive carriers of the soon to be newborn, we know differently now.

I searched for 'Aliester Crowley semen retention' and found a discussion group, which has a few other nuances on the subject.

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.magick/c/kuaB9fzlRtg

(& not really interested in further digging)
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/25/22 9:24 AM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Thanks for sharing your digging!

To be fair, I think, if I interpreted SigmaTropic correctly, that he doesn't really believe in some objective magickal quality of the semen. It sounded to me like it's more about working with a kind of craving that can be very strong, and the magickal quality of the semen was more of an excuse to get men to actually do this in spite of their lust. And then the magickal aspects come from the energy that is released if they succeed to untangle the knots that have them hooked to their sexual desire. Something like that. 

But yeah, luckily there is no real retention. I'm no medic, but I suspect that would get pretty unhealthy really quick otherwise. 

Am I the only one who wonders where female ejaculation comes into this? Or would regular orgasms be the eauivalent? I mean, since the semen itself is not the issue, wouldn't it work just as well with female genitals? Maybe the practice has been developed like this because there were only semen-producing practicioners within the tradition? Or maybe it's built on the assumption that craving sex is only an issue for men?

Then again, even though the historical Buddha seems to have emphasized not getting attached to rituals, I think rituals can have a pragmatic value, in magickal thinking, which can be an opening for people. So when there is a tradition that has developed some specific rituals and lots of energy have been invested in them, collectively and over time, I can understand why some teachers prefer to stay with those rituals and build on that momentum and on the faith that their students have in it. So I don't personally agree with the choices, but I can understand them, methodologically. I find it interesting that this kind of dynamics works, even though it's partly based on keeping the students in the dark. Ignorance is used as a tool, sort of, to fuel the devotional side. And of course, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here. I assume that in these practices, the ignorance that is built in will be dealt with later on, in the phase of emptying it all out. Just like we can use subject-object duality and really fuel that with our attention until it collapses. If the practicioner gets to that later point, that is, in both cases. 

Ah, sorry for pinging you when you wanted to withdraw from the thread, genaro. You just got me curious. No need for you to reply. 
Monica R, modified 2 Months ago at 7/29/22 8:31 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/29/22 8:30 PM

RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö
Am I the only one who wonders where female ejaculation comes into this? 

I'm will say weren't the only one. SigmaTropic has some BDE for sure damn ....  0) 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago at 7/30/22 7:13 AM
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RE: SigmaTropic Fraternity Guiding Teachers

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Huh? That's not what I meant. To each their own, I guess. 

I was just thinking that the shape of the genitals really doesn't have anything to do with the practice if one skips the belief system parts. 

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