What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Matheus Ribeiro de Assis 7/21/22 7:20 AM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Pepe · 7/21/22 7:30 AM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Jim Smith 7/21/22 12:26 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Martin 7/21/22 12:30 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Jim Smith 7/21/22 12:45 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Martin 7/21/22 1:00 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? shargrol 7/21/22 12:26 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? T DC 7/21/22 5:33 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Jim Smith 7/26/22 8:52 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? T DC 7/21/22 9:50 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Jim Smith 7/22/22 12:46 AM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/22/22 2:28 AM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/22/22 2:45 AM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? shargrol 7/27/22 2:11 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/27/22 2:55 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Martin 7/27/22 3:45 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? shargrol 7/28/22 5:59 AM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Martin 7/28/22 11:14 AM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? shargrol 7/28/22 12:56 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Martin 7/28/22 5:43 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Jim Smith 7/21/22 6:24 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/22/22 2:31 AM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? George S 7/22/22 10:39 AM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Chris M 7/21/22 7:56 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? shargrol 7/27/22 3:29 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/27/22 4:18 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? genaro 7/28/22 7:16 AM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? shargrol 7/28/22 12:57 PM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Siavash ' 7/30/22 2:45 AM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/31/22 7:59 AM
RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically? Matheus Ribeiro de Assis 8/5/22 9:50 PM
Matheus Ribeiro de Assis, modified 4 Months ago at 7/21/22 7:20 AM
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What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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I've been struggling with uderstanding A&P since all material I've stumbled upon just describes it (the situations that this term can be applied to), but they never talk what it's all about. What is it? What role does it plays on enlightenment? What is actually happening in the brain?
I'm interested in both, pragmatic and esoteric views.
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Pepe ·, modified 4 Months ago at 7/21/22 7:30 AM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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Hi Matheus,

Check MCTB2 - The Arising and Passing Away

Also Daniel Ingram's best posts compilation section dedicated to the A&P which I guess is what you are looking for.

As for A&P phenomenology: List of symptoms for ñana diagnosis
 
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Jim Smith, modified 4 Months ago at 7/21/22 12:26 PM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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Matheus Ribeiro de Assis
I've been struggling with uderstanding A&P since all material I've stumbled upon just describes it (the situations that this term can be applied to), but they never talk what it's all about. What is it? What role does it plays on enlightenment? What is actually happening in the brain?
I'm interested in both, pragmatic and esoteric views.


My opinions are that during an A&P event you are getting high on your own brain chemicals: endorphins, serotonin, dopamine, maybe others. It has nothing to do with awakening, it just means you have some facility with a type of meditation that alters your brain chemistry. Doing that kind of meditation (or some other kind of meditation) could help you increase your level of enlightenment, but that is not related to A&P type events, they are just a side effect. Like if you take a pain killer and it causes hallucinations, the hallucinations are not part of the pain relief they are a side effect.

I don't mean to minimize the experiences, they can be significant spiritual experiences that are important to the experiencer. I only mean they are not important in relation to Buddhist awakening. They could be more important than awakening.
shargrol, modified 4 Months ago at 7/21/22 12:26 PM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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Martin, modified 4 Months ago at 7/21/22 12:30 PM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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That makes sense, Jim but simple facility with a type of meditation that alters your brain chemistry would not explain why A&P events don't happen each time that a person does a specific type of meditation. Big A&P events are isolated occurrences and even smaller scale events with A&P characteristics are discrete and, unlike jhanas, cannot be summoned at will. 
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Jim Smith, modified 4 Months ago at 7/21/22 12:45 PM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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Martin
That makes sense, Jim but simple facility with a type of meditation that alters your brain chemistry would not explain why A&P events don't happen each time that a person does a specific type of meditation. Big A&P events are isolated occurrences and even smaller scale events with A&P characteristics are discrete and, unlike jhanas, cannot be summoned at will. 


Says who?

I have them frequently. (That's one reason I am not a fan of POI it doesn't represent my experiences.) The kind of meditation I do that produces piti and sukha (soft jhana) also produces A&P experiences for me regularly.

Maybe some kinds of meditation (like noting) produce them infrequently because that type of meditation is not really good at producing them. Maybe people who do more samatha type meditation have them more often?

I still think what I wrote is right even if you want to take out the part about "facility".

Or suppose I changed this
it just means you have some facility with a type of meditation that alters your brain chemistry
to this:
it just means you have some facility with a type of meditation that occasionally alters your brain chemistry"
Martin, modified 4 Months ago at 7/21/22 1:00 PM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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Yes, I would agree with saying that it just means you have some facility with a type of meditation that occasionally alters your brain chemistry. And then the question of why these things happen when they do comes up, at which point we are not much further along in our understanding. 
T DC, modified 4 Months ago at 7/21/22 5:33 PM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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The way I see it, the A/P is the result of an initial insight on the path.  We start out in Mind and Body, where everything is simple and straightforward ("this is my mind, this is my body").  We then move into Cause and Effect, which is shorthand for meditative chaos - uncomfortable bodily sensations, rampant distraction, etc.  We have now moved into a slightly deeper strata of meditative experience and, ironically, are now experiencing the true chaos of the untamed mind.  With continued practice, we get these early mental ya-yas out so to speak, and more into more of a workhorse style meditation practice - the Three Characteristics.  As we get a greater and greater handle on working with our diverse mental experience in meditation, we come to our first major insight into impermanence.  

When we peak in the 3 Characteristics, the A/P occurs exactly as the name implies - a thought arises in our mind, we see it to be naught-but-a-thought, and it then passes away freely and easily into the ether of mind, never to return.  We have now achieved a genuine insight into the transitory nature of our mental experience (aka thoughts).  As described in the Buddhist canon in three distinct ways, at this insight we see that our mental experience is impermanent - it slips away; unsatisfactory - not being lasting, it cannot permanently satisfy us; and not-self; we personally watched it go, thus it is not us (the watcher).

Truly this is an interesting and exciting meditative insight.  Having achieved it, we have defeated some small degree of perceptual ignorance, and thus achieving success, a floodgate of mental energy opens, loosing all the myriad mystical, energetic, and hypomanic effects associated with the A/P.  And once this energy is spent, we're still on the ride, albeit slightly deeper on path, in new, uncomfortable, and occasionally mystifying territory (the 'dark night' POI stages).

My two cents, based on my experience of the path.  And conversely people seem to stumble on the A/P frequently with much less defined experiences of insight aside from a kind of energetic or perceptual high.  But a more mechanical model would seem to explain many of the A/P effects, and coincide nicely with the 3 Characteristics and A/P naming scheme.
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Jim Smith, modified 4 Months ago at 7/26/22 8:52 PM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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The way I see it, the A/P is the result of an initial insight on the path.  We start out in Mind and Body, where everything is simple and straightforward ("this is my mind, this is my body").  We then move into Cause and Effect, which is shorthand for meditative chaos - uncomfortable bodily sensations, rampant distraction, etc.  We have now moved into a slightly deeper strata of meditative experience and, ironically, are now experiencing the true chaos of the untamed mind.  With continued practice, we get these early mental ya-yas out so to speak, and more into more of a workhorse style meditation practice - the Three Characteristics.  As we get a greater and greater handle on working with our diverse mental experience in meditation, we come to our first major insight into impermanence.  

When we peak in the 3 Characteristics, the A/P occurs exactly as the name implies - a thought arises in our mind, we see it to be naught-but-a-thought, and it then passes away freely and easily into the ether of mind, never to return.  We have now achieved a genuine insight into the transitory nature of our mental experience (aka thoughts).  As described in the Buddhist canon in three distinct ways, at this insight we see that our mental experience is impermanent - it slips away; unsatisfactory - not being lasting, it cannot permanently satisfy us; and not-self; we personally watched it go, thus it is not us (the watcher).

Truly this is an interesting and exciting meditative insight.  Having achieved it, we have defeated some small degree of perceptual ignorance, and thus achieving success, a floodgate of mental energy opens, loosing all the myriad mystical, energetic, and hypomanic effects associated with the A/P.  And once this energy is spent, we're still on the ride, albeit slightly deeper on path, in new, uncomfortable, and occasionally mystifying territory (the 'dark night' POI stages).

My two cents, based on my experience of the path.  And conversely people seem to stumble on the A/P frequently with much less defined experiences of insight aside from a kind of energetic or perceptual high.  But a more mechanical model would seem to explain many of the A/P effects, and coincide nicely with the 3 Characteristics and A/P naming scheme.
In this video Daniel says piti, sukha, are A/P and I don't think those depend on any type of insight - just doing a technique will produce them. People can experience those every day. Daniel is very adamant in the video, if you have piti or sukha and the other phenomena it is always A/P. He doesn't say sometimes A/P is a cause of piti and sukha, he says definitely if you have piti or sukha or most of the other phenomena, they are always A/P.

​​​​​​​And that video lists so many different phenomena I don't see how they can all be due to the same insight. If it was caused by an insight I would expect everyone to have some commonality in their experience - like understanding the three characteristics - not "energy" or lights etc. ​​​​​​​I don't think an insight can cause those kinds of phenomena. It seems like "getting high on your brain chemicals" makes more sense to explain all those different phenomena because there are several different brain chemicals that in different proportions could cause different phenomena due to variations in meditation techniques and individual differences in people. 

People have those various phenomena without studying the 3 characteristics, so I don't think A/P is a natural consequence of studying the 3 characteristics. What you can say is that A/P is a natural consequence of a lot of meditation of one type or another.

​​​​​​​And people have A/P multiple times. If it was an insight wouldn't that just produce the effect once at the time of the insight? This is another objection I have to POI. I see how if insight into "A" leads to an insight into "B" than a deeper insight into "A" in the next cycle could cause a deeper insight into "B", but I don't see the stages in the POI as being cause and effect like that.
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Jim Smith, modified 4 Months ago at 7/21/22 6:24 PM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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​​​​​​​In the pathways.jpg diagram, Daniel shows 2nd jhana is equivalent to A/P. I think that means A/P is not a natural consequence of insight into the 3 characteristics, it is just the next thing (the next side effect) that happens to some people when they do a lot of meditation. Just because there is a sequence of events that that doesn't necessarily mean each one is caused by the previous item in the sequence.
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Chris M, modified 4 Months ago at 7/21/22 7:56 PM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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I'm wondering how we can distinguish between insights and brain chemicals. We have no idea how, or if, the brain causes the mind and consciousness. We have no way to prove or to know that anything that happens internally in the mind or consciousness to any person is "caused" by anything else with specificity. This distinction between insight and chemicals seems dubious given this state our knowledge. On top of that, we're all different and the variance between individual instances in practice is vast. I'm not surprised that Jim sees this the way he sees it. It's his experience, after all. But it's just another opinion based on one instance subjectively understood and described.

As time passes and I continue to practice, I'm more and more comfortable admitting that I don't know how all this insight/paths/awakening stuff works. It just does.

YMMV, as always.
T DC, modified 4 Months ago at 7/21/22 9:50 PM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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Jim - thanks for the reply.  As far as broad application of the A/P, I think there's a couple issues there.  One is that when you have a beautiful hammer (the A/P classification), everything looks like a nail apparently.  In recent DhO history it was basically a cliche that anytime someone posted a random or interesting spiritual experience, the first or second post would be "It's the A/P".  Although I think the POI and A/P form a great model, and one I have gotten a lot of use out of, I also see it as limited - there's a big spiritual world out there and one single stage on a relatively simple, linear map surely cannot account for all that diversity. 

Another issue with this broad classification is it dilutes the meaning.  If piti, suka, crazy dreams, satori experiences, random energetic occurrences, etc., are all A/P, not only does it not give these unique experiences proper credit IMO, but at that point who even knows what we really mean by the A/P - good luck pinning down any clear meaning in that jumble.  Pointing to the A/P as "brain chemicals" seems like an even more broad designation, so personally I'm unsure of it's utility. 

But if you find it a useful designation, more power to you.  I personally resonate most with a limited, linear, and insight based model of the A/P, as shared - to each their own.

Jim Smith
People have those various phenomena without studying the 3 characteristics, so I don't think A/P is a natural consequence of studying the 3 characteristics. What you can say is that A/P is a natural consequence of a lot of meditation of one type or another.


​​​​​​​I would agree that the A/P insight is not caused by knowing about the 3 Characteristics or applying that knowledge to meditation.  After all in realtity there are no "three characteristics", there is simply a direct experience of (one) ultimate truth described three different ways.  Thus people could theoretically stumble upon it in any number of possible ways.  Re: above, my point is just that I think that occurance is relatively rare.
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Jim Smith, modified 4 Months ago at 7/22/22 12:46 AM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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Jim Smith

​​​​​​​And people have A/P multiple times. If it was an insight wouldn't that just produce the effect once at the time of the insight? This is another objection I have to POI. I see how if insight into "A" leads to an insight into "B" than a deeper insight into "A" in the next cycle could cause a deeper insight into "B", but I don't see the stages in the POI as being cause and effect like that.





I also think the category of A/P as Daniel defines in the video is artificial and not really a valid stage in POI. As a teacher it kind of makes sense to take all those phenomena that have nothing to do with enlightenment and put them in a separate category. But as far as studying phenomenology it is not really a meaningful category - the phenomena are not related. Those phenomena in my opinion have nothing to do with studying the three characteristics and therefore that category does not belong at that place in the POI. Maybe if there is another definition of A/P it would make more sense but not with all those categories Daniel mentions in the video.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Months ago at 7/22/22 2:28 AM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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The way I understand it, a key aspect of A&P is being able to see both the arising and the passing away with the kind of clarity that creates insight. That clarity often but not always comes together with fireworksy effects. And if that clarity doesn't happen, then it doesn't take and we will need to do the homework all over again. It's possible to get into the territory without finishing it, I suppose. Maybe sometimes the mind prematurely celebrates, and thus we get some fireworksy effects without the proper insight while missing out on the A&P event that would be the insight. In those cases, the A&P isn't done with yet, I'd say. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Months ago at 7/22/22 2:31 AM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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It seems that we interpret this map differently from each other. The way I interpret it, the arrows don't mean that the jhanas and the ñanas are equivalent, just that there are possible shortcuts between them and that they can be helpful for each other.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Months ago at 7/22/22 2:45 AM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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I can only speak from my own experience, and in that experience, cycling through the ñana territories happens so often and so rapidly that it's hardly the case that I nail it every time. Most of them are lost opportunities, I'm afraid. So then I have to rinse and repeat. I very often have the highs and the lows of the ñanas without doing the proper work. Cycling isn't the same as progressing on the path, I'd say. It's just impermanence. Being stuck experientially in one ñana just doesn't happen, because everything is impermanent and very transient. In order to actually progress on the path, though, we need to nail the insights that the ñanas offer. Thankfully, there are plenty of opportunities to take the exams, as there is a rolling schedule for each one of them. 

In the case of A&P territory, the most common reason for failing the exam for me personally is a racing mind too busy to use the clarity in a focused way. Either that or using the clarity and focus to get tasks done in daily life.
George S, modified 4 Months ago at 7/22/22 10:39 AM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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Jim Smith
I think that means A/P is not a natural consequence of insight into the 3 characteristics, it is just the next thing (the next side effect) that happens to some people when they do a lot of meditation.

I think that's right. It seems that once concentration becomes strong enough then one will inevitably start becoming aware of piti-sukha. It doesn't really matter what the meditation object or method is, you can concentrate the mind on pretty much anything. If you focus the mind on investigating the 3Cs then it will start becoming concentrated, hence piti-sukha can "arise".

Because piti-sukha is a jhana factor, people think of it as a light jhana, and the natural place to map it is J2 because it grabs the attention and requires less effort (vitakka-vicara J1), whereas in the dukkha nanas piti fades away and it has more of diffuse emotional feel (J3). This seems to be the origin of the vipassana jhana map, but again it's only a light jhana because piti-sukha is already present in the first jhana.

I think what you say about brain chemicals is probably right as well. Piti certainly feels like a powerful effect in the nervous system, and you can have similar experiences on drugs which effect neurotransmitters. On drugs you don't necessarily have the concentration, so I think it's probably suppression of the default mode network which is key, and it's just that concentration practice also happens to reduce DMN activity.

The first few times piti-sukha tends to feel like a big wow, hence the big emphasis on A&P, but eventually one gets used to it and it's more like a constant background which is amplifed during meditation (e.g. post first path meditators usually cycle straight from A&P).
shargrol, modified 4 Months ago at 7/27/22 2:11 PM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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"As a teacher it kind of makes sense to take all those phenomena that have nothing to do with enlightenment and put them in a separate category. But as far as studying phenomenology it is not really a meaningful category - the phenomena are not related."

Yes, definitely practical reasons for lumping all of those together: they are the experiences that come after three characteristics and before dissolution. emoticon

I would say that what relates the phenomina is not the individual phenomina themselves --- that's where most people get confused because indeed there are many different experiences --- but the overall context of the phenomina. This stage has the quality of knowing where there is a tangible sense of "really seeing the deeper nature of reality". Really getting it.

And there is always a sense of "pride/superior identity" associated with this.  When people say "I have seen the light", it is as much about "I" as it is about "the light". Even if someone claims to be damaged by an A&P experience, if you listen closely they will be saying something like "i dove in deeper that most humans ever would, pushed harders that others do, and so I'm more damaged that other meditations" ---  which is still a kind of pride. That's what really characterizes the heart of this stage. At no other point is the meditator going to be so sure about the nature of reality and so smug about their practice emoticon  But hey, it's a phase.

A&P has a sense of knowing "what really exists behind superfical reality" and "my spiritual/meditation pracitice is special/unique/powerful/profound".
It's sort of the mirror image of "desire for deliverance" where the unifying characteristic is not the specifics, but rather the overall context that meditator is sure that something is wrong and they need to figure out how to fix it.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Months ago at 7/27/22 2:55 PM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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This makes a lot of sense. That's probably why there's sort of a wormhole between reobservation and the A&P, just like there are wormholes between specific realms of beings. Easy to fall from one to the other. The A&P offers the kinds of subjective outlook that the reobservation mindstate wants to convince itself and others that it posesses (and perhaps not just subjectively). It's sort of a pride loop going on there, until one manages to (temporarily) let go of that craving of feeling and be seen as special. 

Earlier in my practice I found that reobservation would often take on qualities of the A&P and that the A&P would often take on qualities of reobservation. Not with regard to focus, obviously, as that differs a lot between them, but with regard to tempo and confidence and impulsivity. I thought it was funny, since practicioners so often like the A&P and dislike reobservation. I thought that the difference was exaggerated. Sometimes I would even find myself bouncing back and forth a bit between those two ñanas rather than following the standard cycle.

I don't keep track of the ñanas as much nowadays, as they are so transient anyway, so I don't know what my cycling pattern looks like now, if I still bounce like that. Hm, maybe I should look into those aspects of my remaining reactive patterns. 
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Yeah all the nanas are almost fun if you can really be with them. A&amp;P is of course fun, but reobservation can also have this fun-crazy turbulent wild ride aspect to it, kind of what it's like to ride a motorcycle in a strong crosswind with your head shaking all around... or like parts of your mind are being blown away like paint peeling off a plane traveling past the speed of sound emoticon&nbsp;<br /> 
Martin, modified 4 Months ago at 7/27/22 3:45 PM
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For me, as an outside observer, this does not fit with what I see on the DhO. I see this sort of pride all the time from people said to be at all sorts of stages in the POI. I also notice that many, if not most, people who show up on the DhO reporting things that are categorized here as A&P report being confused. In fact, I would guess that a sample of reports resulting in an A&P diagnosis would find more reports of confusion than "really getting it". 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Months ago at 7/27/22 4:18 PM
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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I know what you mean. It has its own rough charm. 
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Martin
For me, as an outside observer, this does not fit with what I see on the DhO. I see this sort of pride all the time from people said to be at all sorts of stages in the POI. I also notice that many, if not most, people who show up on the DhO reporting things that are categorized here as A&P report being confused. In fact, I would guess that a sample of reports resulting in an A&P diagnosis would find more reports of confusion than "really getting it". 

I can understand that observation and frankly, I'd love to have good numbers on it.

But be clear, I'm not saying it's always positive confidence, but I am saying that even when people show up as confused it's because they are sure they have seen something profound which is not seen by most others... and they are confused by that. Also, I would say that most of the confusion comes from not from the A&P stage itself, but by the dissolution and dark night stages which quickly follow --- people are often confused by "why practice was so great and why is now so bad?". 
genaro, modified 4 Months ago at 7/28/22 7:16 AM
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love this!
Martin, modified 4 Months ago at 7/28/22 11:14 AM
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Yes, that could be, though most of the people asking about it here do not seem to have a steady practice before and after, which is why they come here, I guess. Meanwhile, people practicing steadily and reporting here, which is to say, people expecting to experience A&P tend to report much more mild events, sometimes limited to one sit, as A&P. 

Basically, I don't see a clear pattern. It looks like there is a tendency towards some similarities, but nothing clear enough that I would expect it to have predictive power. But then, the DhO may not be the ideal data gathering tool and, not having experienced a POI-type progression myself, I might be like a colorblind person listening to descriptions of rainbows and not really getting it :-) 
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RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

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It's important to remember that these maps work really well in the context they were developed: longer, residential meditation retreats, like the ~100day rains retreats (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassa">Vassa - Wikipedia</a>) or the three-month retreat at IMS (<a href="https://www.dharma.org/retreats/738">Insight Meditation Society (dharma.org)</a>). The further we get from that, the less practice will parallel the maps.<br /><br />What we get on this website is often a drug-induced A&amp;P-like experience. Or a 10-day Goenka retreat induced A&amp;P experience. So I agree it isn't the best website for data gathering. emoticon<br /><br />I would say as a pre-condition for the maps to play out is ~1hr of sitting every day. Even then, it can be hard to be self-aware of the nanas that a person is in, they tend to be too close to see it. That's where external folks (teachers, experience meditators) can help.&nbsp;<br /><br />And unfortunately, sometimes people get too focused on mapping and forget to focus on mindfulness. In other words, they become obsessed "about" the practice and not doing the practice!
shargrol, modified 4 Months ago at 7/28/22 12:57 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 7/28/22 12:57 PM

RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

Posts: 1872 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
ugh, the formatting problem is annoying... oh well, something is better than nothing.
Martin, modified 4 Months ago at 7/28/22 5:43 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 7/28/22 5:43 PM

RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

Posts: 496 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
Yes, that's pretty much what I was thinking. Context is very important. There are lots of different maps out there, in part because there are lots of different contexts, proclivities, and so on. And this site gets a whole mishmash of practitioners, which is a great thing.

When I started reading here, I was expecting that things would play out according to the POI formula. That is partially because MCTBII inclines toward that way of presenting things, and partially because, having found the jhanas before having heard of POI, and having found that worked EXACTLY as Brassington described them, I guessed that all meditation stuff had been worked out to a level at which is was possible to predict how things go. If jhanas were always the same, then nanas would always be the same too. Not so much, it turns out. 

That said, we are all playing the same sandbox. And it's a great sandbox!
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Siavash ', modified 4 Months ago at 7/30/22 2:45 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 7/30/22 2:45 AM

RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

Posts: 1596 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
 What I've noticed in my experience, and reading about others' experience, my understanding matches with what Shargrol said, and I think Daniel has good reasons to put all those different kinds of experiences in the same category.

What I've noticed is that in the A&P territory, there is a dualistic polarity (not sure this is a good phrase) between the "I" and "an experience". The "I" is different from the usual/normal I, and the experience is different from the usual/normal experiences. There is a collectedness and unification in the I, and a collectedness in the experience, so there is pride, and/or confidence, and joy, mixed with intensity, that could lean toward pleasantness or painfulness. Then both the I, and the experience start getting shattered. There is chaos and confusion with all kinds of ups and downs in both of the I and the experience, until the I loses its pride and confusion, and the experiences loses its chaos and intensity, and after enough collision, the sharp edges are gone, and they come to a calm tranquil agreement, and a spacious, even harmony. But then there is more craving again for intensity, for pride, or for pain, so the balance and harmony goes away and the cycle starts again.
 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Months ago at 7/31/22 7:59 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 7/31/22 7:59 AM

RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

Posts: 6847 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Ha, yeah, well put! 
Matheus Ribeiro de Assis, modified 4 Months ago at 8/5/22 9:50 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 8/5/22 9:50 PM

RE: What is the A&P Phenomenologically?

Posts: 21 Join Date: 1/23/22 Recent Posts
I would like to thank everyone that commented here, I've nothing more to add on the topic. You guys discussed exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

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