Direct pointing ???

Matt Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Month ago at 8/10/22 5:56 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/10/22 5:56 PM

Direct pointing ???

Posts: 80 Join Date: 5/1/22 Recent Posts
Wow you just tell somebody something and they get stream entry??    Somebody slip me the answer please
John, modified 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 3:24 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 3:24 AM

RE: Direct pointing ???

Posts: 51 Join Date: 7/11/14 Recent Posts
What would you be right now without your thoughts?
Derek2, modified 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 7:13 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 7:11 AM

RE: Direct pointing ???

Posts: 203 Join Date: 9/21/16 Recent Posts
According to Dzogchen master Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche "Once one has received the pointing-out instruction there is the chance of either recognizing it or not."

​​​​​​​https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing-out_instruction
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Pepe ·, modified 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 7:17 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 7:17 AM

RE: Direct pointing ???

Posts: 600 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
Check:

Akilesh's website and his long thread in DhO
Soh Wei Yu's stuff: How to Practice to Realize I AM 
Matt Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 8:23 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 8:23 AM

RE: Direct pointing ???

Posts: 80 Join Date: 5/1/22 Recent Posts
Nothing  or void.    But I can't Instictually grasp it. Only conceptually 
shargrol, modified 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 8:35 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 8:35 AM

RE: Direct pointing ???

Posts: 1830 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
I suspect pointing out actually gives something closer to Equanimity Nana rather than cessation. Achieving presence, whether through meditation or pointing out, is a required first step but then we need to be able to SOAK in it for a while and let the busy habits of mind let go.

People who experience pointing out will no doubt have an insight into the nature of mind (that all emotions and thoughts are not inherently true/solid but rather vivid and empty displays that come from nowhere, stay nowhere, and disappear to nowhere). 

But I think it is rare for people who find themselves in this direct-presence to tip over into cessation and stream entry. I suspect the people who do are probably already well-established meditators. If I had to bet, I would guess that for most people, this state of immediate presence would collapse into an A&P type experience, which is sort of the classic thing people report when in the presence of teachers/gurus etc. And as we know, A&P feels very spiritual, but actually leads to more challenging stages of development before someone is clear minded enough to truly rest and SOAK in equanimity.

So definitely seek "pointing out" if you can, but also have a good, consistent, daily, non-heroic meditation practice and make wise use of retreats. emoticon
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Bud E, modified 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 1:07 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 1:07 PM

RE: Direct pointing ???

Posts: 11 Join Date: 4/29/22 Recent Posts
shargrol:
People who experience pointing out will no doubt have an insight into the nature of mind (that all emotions and thoughts are not inherently true/solid but rather vivid and empty displays that come from nowhere, stay nowhere, and disappear to nowhere).  But I think it is rare for people who find themselves in this direct-presence to tip over into cessation and stream entry. I suspect the people who do are probably already well-established meditators. If I had to bet, I would guess that for most people, this state of immediate presence would collapse into an A&P type experience, which is sort of the classic thing people report when in the presence of teachers/gurus etc. And as we know, A&P feels very spiritual, but actually leads to more challenging stages of development before someone is clear minded enough to truly rest and SOAK in equanimity. So definitely seek "pointing out" if you can, but also have a good, consistent, daily, non-heroic meditation practice and make wise use of retreats. emoticon


Without the view
of trekcho one doesn't reach the
core of thogal practice. The thogal visions are rigdang,
'manifestations of awareness,' but lacking the correct view of
recognizing rigpa, they become nothing but lungdang,
'manifestations of the karmic wind' -- expressions of dualistic
fixation. Recognizing rigpa is the key point in trekcho.
- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche
T DC, modified 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 9:16 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 9:15 PM

RE: Direct pointing ???

Posts: 473 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
Not sure what source OP was refering to exactly, but it might be helpful to differentiate between direct pointing and pointing-out instrustions. 

For me, direct pointing brings to mind the advita-type "practice" that was more common on here about 10 yrs ago with groups like Ruthless Truth and Liberation Unleashed, where someone who had already been though the process would basically continually question you about where your "self" was, etc., until you had some kind of opening / inkling of insight.  Really dubiously helpful, possibly moved a few people towards greater insight, but more often lead to confusion IMO.  Also they emphasized that process alone, without any meditative support.

Whereas pointing out instructions occur as part of a broader tradition and in the context on an ongoing meditative practice.  I am still somewhat doubtful as to the true eficacy of pointing-out producing actual insight, but certainly it could be helpful as a guide to inclining the mind in a very specific open and spacious direction.  Another tool in the box perhaps, and if it works then great, but there's really no shortcuts on the path, or substitues for a dedicated meditation / mindfulness practice IME. 
Matt Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 5:18 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 5:18 AM

RE: Direct pointing ???

Posts: 80 Join Date: 5/1/22 Recent Posts
Thank-you  for that clarification