Can I get samatha jhanas by doing metta? - Discussion
Can I get samatha jhanas by doing metta?
Conor O'Higgins, modified 12 Years ago at 12/8/11 6:37 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/8/11 6:37 AM
Can I get samatha jhanas by doing metta?
Posts: 46 Join Date: 3/8/11 Recent Posts
Hi,
Would it be possible to do concentration practice as normal, but use love as the object of meditation? Would I be able to progress through the concentration path in this way? Or do brahmaviharas follow different rules?
It seems like it'd be a really good way to kill two birds with one stone: practice concentration while at the same time getting all the benefits of lovingkindness meditation.
Thanks
Would it be possible to do concentration practice as normal, but use love as the object of meditation? Would I be able to progress through the concentration path in this way? Or do brahmaviharas follow different rules?
It seems like it'd be a really good way to kill two birds with one stone: practice concentration while at the same time getting all the benefits of lovingkindness meditation.
Thanks
Nikolai , modified 12 Years ago at 12/8/11 7:34 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/8/11 7:34 AM
RE: Can I get samatha jhanas by doing metta?
Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
The following article seems to point to this possibility.
http://www.dhammasukha.org/Study/Articles/beautiful.htm
http://www.dhammasukha.org/Study/Articles/beautiful.htm
What is the Beautiful ?
Initial Question:
In the practice of loving-kindness, what is the beautiful and what is the culmination of this practice?
Answer:
You brought up a good question about "Loving-kindness" practice and where it culminates. Your question was, what is the beautiful?
The "Beautiful" is equivalent to the Fourth jhana and the practice of the Brahma Viharas or Breaking down the Barriers" does lead onward nearly to the full liberation: Nibbana.
It is long overdue for me to do another examination of this sutta in a little more detail than done before. So this is a good time to do this. Why don’t we go over it from the beginning to find out exactly how far one can go while practicing Loving-kindness meditation. OK?
We’ll use the text translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi from "The connected Discourses of the Buddha, a translation of the Samyutta Nikaya" published by Wisdom Publications. Sometime I would suggest you get this book so we can work on things together in the future. It is available at Amazon.com .
The text for this begins on page 1607. It is found in The Great Book (Mahavagga) Chapter II 46 Bojangasamyutta; Connected Discourses of Enlightenment- in V The Discussions- Sutta # 54 (4) Accompanied by Loving-kindness.
Now here we are with the Buddha and he is letting these monks know that the answer to these questions does not lie in those other traditions. [ in other words all meditation is NOT the same and all jhana is NOT the same]. They do not have the answers for these questions. Knowing the Buddha, through other sutta texts and stories, and how curious and investigative he was by nature during his six year search when he was yet a bodisatta, one can pretty well figure that he tried those other traditions before saying this. As we are told in these stories, he had tried those traditions and it just wasn’t there that the answer lies. He continued his search for the way to liberation from the suffering and to fully understand many other things along the way.
You know, this is where Faith comes into the picture in Buddhism. The Faith is that faith we put in him that he was telling the truth and you and I do not have to go through what he went through to figure this out if we just follow his instructions without changing them. But many, many people don’t have this faith and instead, they jump all over the place trying to figure things out going tradition to tradition struggling with political correctness and any number of other things and no one seems to want to go right to the source any more and just do what the guy said to do! I don’t know about you, but I feel pretty safe in saying that if someone found something and then taught it for 45 years and left a heap of instructions, then we should examine those first and not what someone later said they mean and most especially when no one can tell you where the arahats are?
That was one of my issues in the beginning. So. Americans have been doing this Buddhism for over 50 years now and so, where are the arahats? It says right here in the scriptures that this practice he did was easily accessible, easy to do all the time, with benefits and results that happen right away in our lives. And he described those results that should be happening in many places in the suttas. So why would you go to a book about meditation that doesn’t do that? That isn’t readily accessible, that doesn’t being immediate results etc? Over time I discovered that people were just not going to the right source. It’s still here, available, with immediate benefits and results. You gotta know where it is AND you gotta know HOW to test it and examine it for yourself.
BTW- The thing that springs up for us here in this sutta is that the Buddha is using the 4 Noble Truths once again as a tool for his investigation training if you look closely. We are shown here how the 4 Noble Truths, all of them or a part of them, are a viable pattern of investigation to follow in order to figure things out! The questions here for instance,
What is Loving-kindness? What is Compassion? What is Altruistic Joy? What is Equanimity? These demonstrate the First Noble Truth being used just like with "What is Suffering?"
Then we are examining within our practice What is the Cause of Loving-kindness, Compassion, Joy, Equanimity?
By practicing Loving-kindness we come to experience the cessation of formations and this is the Third Noble Truth
Last the Buddha talks about the path talking about the arising Factors of Enlightenment with each of the Brahma Viharas and then the point of culmination as you go down the path using this method of meditation which is the Fourth noble Truth.
Then the Buddha moves on to precisely examining the destination of, the culmination, of the fruit of, and the final goal of these states.
So he is demonstrating the "uninterrupted practice " that must take place during this investigation to find this out. This is why we do retreats for this very deep level of meditation work.
As he starts in with the good stuff, the Buddha gets down to explaining the destination, the culmination, the fruit, and the final goal of each of the four stages of breaking down the barriers on the way to Nibbana, or, practicing the Brahma Viharas.
And how, monks, is the liberation of the mind by loving kindness developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, and its final goal? Here, monks, a monk develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness accompanied by loving-kindness, …[the enlightenment factor of investigation accompanied by Loving-kindness, the enlightenment factor of energy accompanied by loving-kindness, the enlightenment factor of JOY accompanied by loving-kindness, the enlightenment factor of Tranquility accompanied by loving-kindness, the enlightenment factor of concentration [collectedness] accompanied by loving-kindness, and the factor of equanimity accompanied by loving-kindness, based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release.
Here we are told that in order to reach the ultimate liberation we have to experience the enlightenment factors. The Buddha is telling us that if we practice loving-kindness we will experience these factors.
Now it is obvious here that this is not a short thing to do! To do this the Noble ones went into seclusion, meaning that to a location in the forest where they could be in sequestered retreat alone only getting food and no other activity than meditation. They did not go out of the area for the phone. Nor did they go to the library, of which there were none, to do research and think. They did not move from place to place or communicate with anyone while doing this precise in depth work of meditation other than for the logistics of supporting each others living there.
Isn't the SECLUSION here the type of seclusion you practice in the midst of all the distractions and not necessarily physical seclusion?
Yes. Now this would be true. But at the time within the Banyan tree a monk would sit alone and would be as secluded as possible from all disturbances to do this work….
They practiced with a dispassionate attitude towards everything. What do I mean? Well, for instance, all food was considered "energy" that would sustain them to continue their practice. There was not choose a cuisine but rather they accepted whatever they were given. They relinquished ‘making decisions about anything’ and mixed the food together in a bowl and ate it at the appointed time each day. Then they continued their meditation. They neither reached for or pushed away any arising phenomenon they experienced at any of their sense doors. They simply let it be, let everything fall away. They did not Crave anything because they were practicing how to let it go. They practiced ceasing of as much Clinging as possible with an impersonal perspective on everything.
Is this the CESSATION? Why wouldn't it be cessation of craving?
Actually this is the level where habitual tendency to crave has been greatly reduced. To live like this is a steady practice not to submit to the tendency of "I" like or "I" don’t like. This is where the training leads.
[if you do not Crave, you would not cling they were gradually discovering] They let go of anything arising. They recognized any thought arising and abandoned [released] it and each time this occurred, they relaxed ALL tension in the body and the mind, smiling lightly, returning to their object of meditation and continuing on again. Sound familiar?.
Yes it is familiar - but where in this sutta does it say that?
All suttas don’t say everything. The error is to take one sutta and believe it alone is the answer. The monks who were listening to this discussion were speaking on particular points here. They had already integrated the 6 R’s we are learning completely and this talk as about how far one can go using the Brahma Viharas.
The had relinquished their possessions and here pursued the meditation, ardent and resolute on Loving-kindness to see what happened next! They encouraged each other as they went along too.
Obviously this was done over a period of time. This is why the monks and nuns seeked the Noble Supramundane Path, totally committed and doing this all the time. Lay persons found much relief learning to do the practice, using it in their lives all the time, and finding a large degree of relief. Remember too, at that time they were not reading and thinking the way we do today. They did this practice and that’s how they figured things out through personal experience.
The Buddha goes on here to explain how the monk mediated;
In this sutta, one gets a clear picture of the meticulous investigative work the monk is doing in the meditation as he goes along. He may spend a day on each part of the above until he is at ease with it entirely within the frame of Loving-kindness before moving on to the nest phase. He is experimenting with the dispassion of it all the entire time noticing how he was hooked before by so much attachment and aversion.
It continues on:
There is a commentarial opinion that goes to great lengths to explain that the ‘beautiful’ here means that the monk now uses a kasina in order to jump into the formless states but the sutta doesn’t talk about this at all and one can suspect the writer didn’t do the exercise himself to see what happens but rather assumed. If you practice yourself and check this out doing the meditation, following the instructions precisely as you have heard them in the Satipatthana sutta and the Anapanasati sutta but applied to the Loving-kindness meditation, you are likely to realize that the loving-kindness will carry you through the ‘aware’ jhanas as the Buddha was practicing very deeply. He was not talking about Absorption here.
The sutta goes on here:
Any words on how the equanimity of the Brahma Viharas is related and different from the enlightenment factor of equanimity?
This sutta sits in the Connected Discourses on the Factors of enlightenment and this IS that level of "Equanimity". Yes.
To this point, we are being told that Loving-kindness goes to the Fourth Jhana which has very strong Equanimity. Then we see Compassion go into Infinite Space.
What is superior liberation?
Superior Liberation would be that liberation that is permanent and does not slip ! such liberation has reached a level of automatic Release without any more volition about it ! AND the unwholesome ceases arising altogether too.
Here we see Altruistic Joy go as far as the base of the infinity of consciousness as its culmination. This should not be believed but tested! Try it. You’ll see for yourself. It will be shown by personal investigation to be true.
You tempt me! This seems a natural to me since I have long thought and advocated a "middle road" in reacting to events - in delightful happenings to consider the downside and not get over elated and in tragic events to see the "silver lining" - to be equanimous to everything - tho I didn't use that wording. Are you actually recommending this? The meditation practice seems quite different in detail from the instructions in loving kindness meditation as presented by Bhante. - Can both methods be done together?
There is no difference. This is only a graduated level of the same meditation. Upon reaching the Arupa jhana ( Immaterial Jhanas) one continues on but the activity of anything arising is occurring at the microscopic level now, almost not at all.
End sutta text.
So there you have it. How far can Loving-kindness and the practice of the Brahma Viharas go? It culminates at the point of as far as the "base of nothingness"! Many people don’t know this. Many never look into a whole sutta or if they do and they have the wrong working definitions for mindfulness and meditation, they won’t understand what they are reading. Understanding how far the Brahma Viharas go another thing becomes clear. The practice of loving-kindness is not a practice to be isolated or to be put into shortform and used bang, bang, bang! This practice, which was mentioned many more times than the breath meditation, led very far along the path to Nibbana, was meant to be embraced and used all the time and for good for all situations. It is VERY powerful tool for helping ourselves and helping others physically and mentally.
From the base of nothingness, one can then enter into the state of Neither perception nor non-perception, then on to No feeling and No perception which is called Nirodha Samapada. At that point one can experience ‘the taints being destroyed by seeing with wisdom’ which means seeing clearly the impersonal process of dependent origination forwards and in the reverse order very clearly: Nibbana.
Some differences here.
Obviously presenting the practice of loving-kindness in this way is not the norm today. You are not likely to find any books anywhere but the suttas that preserve this information. People tend to present it in a very fast progression without explanation of the power that people can develop by practicing this way You may say, well,, that doesn’t make sense. And I would have to say, well, that’s the way of it right now.
With a resolute gradual approach, this practice is a progression of power which is developed as one goes along. Each time the practitioner is examining the ‘repulsive or non-repulsive ‘etc. that is a way of testing the stableness of the equanimity within that level before moving on to the next level.
The different states here are where the practitioner experiences a change in the feeling of the practice they are doing.
For instance, at the point where a yogi is practicing loving-kindness and they reach the fourth jhana, they will feel a significant shift as they come to the base of infinite space. It will feel different and they will explain to the guiding teacher and this change indicates to the teacher that the student should now move on to the Compassion phase of the practice. It’s like that. It’s a progression you go through and the power is getting stronger and stronger all the time.
By presenting a very fast presentation of the brahma viharas or this set of meditation phases and without explanation, the student doesn’t’ get the full picture of the power of what they are learning, the good they can do with it, OR the level of attainment they can progress to by doing this practice. It isn’t clear. I have witnessed this. It’s a shame this has been diluted down to the level it has been. But at the same time, it is understandable how, if the teacher has put their faith in a commentarial work to explain what this practice is, rather than going to ask directly in the suttas, this is what happens. Although it sounds good, it disagrees with the sutta texts when it comes to meditation and it short changes the student badly..
So to answer the original question the ‘beautiful’ is at the level of strong, firm Equanimity which is the condition of the state of the Fourth Jhana and this is where the loving-kindness changes. The feeling shifts. When it shifts it is a sign to move on with the Compassion work to be done. I will not tell you how it shifts. You must come to the teacher and tell him so he will know when to guide you to the next step and so on.
Hope this helps you to understand a little better.
It was a good exercise to do this too so I can learn how to explain it more clearly.
Could still use some shortening up but it’s a start, anyway.
Much Metta.
Khanti-Khema
Dhamma Sukha Meditation Center.
Annapolis, MO
March 26th- 2006
Initial Question:
In the practice of loving-kindness, what is the beautiful and what is the culmination of this practice?
Answer:
You brought up a good question about "Loving-kindness" practice and where it culminates. Your question was, what is the beautiful?
The "Beautiful" is equivalent to the Fourth jhana and the practice of the Brahma Viharas or Breaking down the Barriers" does lead onward nearly to the full liberation: Nibbana.
It is long overdue for me to do another examination of this sutta in a little more detail than done before. So this is a good time to do this. Why don’t we go over it from the beginning to find out exactly how far one can go while practicing Loving-kindness meditation. OK?
We’ll use the text translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi from "The connected Discourses of the Buddha, a translation of the Samyutta Nikaya" published by Wisdom Publications. Sometime I would suggest you get this book so we can work on things together in the future. It is available at Amazon.com .
The text for this begins on page 1607. It is found in The Great Book (Mahavagga) Chapter II 46 Bojangasamyutta; Connected Discourses of Enlightenment- in V The Discussions- Sutta # 54 (4) Accompanied by Loving-kindness.
On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling among the Koliyans, where there was a town of the Koliyans named Haliddavasan. Then, in the morning, a number of monks dressed and, taking their bowls and robes, entered Haliddavasana for alms. Then it occurred to them: "It is still too early to walk for alms in Haliddavasana. Let us go to the park of the wanderers of other sects."
Then those monks went to the park of the wanderers of other sects. They exchanged greetings with those wanderers and, when they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, sat down to one side. The wanderers then said to them: "Friends, the ascetic Gotama teaches the Dhamma to this disciples thus: ‘Come, monks, abandon the five hindrances, the corruptions of the mind that weaken wisdom, and dwell pervading one quarter with mind imbued with Loving Kindness, likewise the second quarter, likewise the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across and everywhere, and to all as to oneself, dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with loving kindness, vast, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without ill will. Dwell pervading one quarter of the mind with Compassion, likewise the second quarter, likewise the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across and everywhere, and to all as to oneself, dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with loving kindness, vast, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without ill will. Dwell pervading one quarter of the mind with Altruistic Joy, likewise the second quarter, likewise the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across and everywhere, and to all as to oneself, dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with loving kindness, vast, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without ill will. Dwell pervading one quarter of the mind with Equanimity, likewise the second quarter, likewise the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across and everywhere, and to all as to oneself, dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with loving kindness, vast, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without ill will.’
"We too, friends, teach the Dhamma to our disciples thus: ‘ Come, friends, abandon the five hindrances, [ them repeat the same over again.]’ So, friends, what here is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the ascetic Gotama and us, that is, regarding the one Dhamma teaching and the other, regarding the one manner of instruction and the other?
These others are asking about the Buddha’s teaching of what is called the "Brahma Viharas" which are composed of four parts mainly Loving-kindness, Compassion, Altruistic Joy, and Equanimity. This is really a good question about ‘what in the world is the Buddha doing that other practices were not doing’ at the time he was teaching?
Those monks neither delighted in nor rejected the statement of those wanders. Without delighting in it, without rejecting it, they rose from their seats and left, thinking, "We shall learn the meaning of this statement in the presence of the Blessed One."
Here these monks went directly to the Buddha to ask him firsthand what is the difference in the way he is teaching so they would be able to explain in future times to others! They took their alms bowls back to where they ate and had their meal and probably rested for good digestion and then afterwards, they went to find the Buddha. They told him the entire story of what had taken place and asked him to make a clear reply. At the top of page 1609 it continues on and I will break it down a little bit so you can see it more clearly:
"Monks, when wanderers of other sects speak thus, they should be asked: ‘Friends, how is the liberation of the mind by loving-kindness developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal?
How is the liberation of the mind by compassion developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal?
How is the liberation of the mind by joy developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal?
How is the liberation of the mind by equanimity developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal?
Being asked thus, those wanderers would not be able to reply and , further, they would meet with vexation. For what reason?
Because that would not be within their domain. I do not see anyone, monks, in this world with its devas, Mara, and Brahma, in this generation with its ascetics and Brahmins, its devas and humans, who could satisfy the mind with an answer to these questions except the Tathagata or a disciple of the Tathagata or one who has heard it from them.
Then those monks went to the park of the wanderers of other sects. They exchanged greetings with those wanderers and, when they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, sat down to one side. The wanderers then said to them: "Friends, the ascetic Gotama teaches the Dhamma to this disciples thus: ‘Come, monks, abandon the five hindrances, the corruptions of the mind that weaken wisdom, and dwell pervading one quarter with mind imbued with Loving Kindness, likewise the second quarter, likewise the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across and everywhere, and to all as to oneself, dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with loving kindness, vast, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without ill will. Dwell pervading one quarter of the mind with Compassion, likewise the second quarter, likewise the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across and everywhere, and to all as to oneself, dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with loving kindness, vast, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without ill will. Dwell pervading one quarter of the mind with Altruistic Joy, likewise the second quarter, likewise the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across and everywhere, and to all as to oneself, dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with loving kindness, vast, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without ill will. Dwell pervading one quarter of the mind with Equanimity, likewise the second quarter, likewise the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across and everywhere, and to all as to oneself, dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with loving kindness, vast, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without ill will.’
"We too, friends, teach the Dhamma to our disciples thus: ‘ Come, friends, abandon the five hindrances, [ them repeat the same over again.]’ So, friends, what here is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the ascetic Gotama and us, that is, regarding the one Dhamma teaching and the other, regarding the one manner of instruction and the other?
These others are asking about the Buddha’s teaching of what is called the "Brahma Viharas" which are composed of four parts mainly Loving-kindness, Compassion, Altruistic Joy, and Equanimity. This is really a good question about ‘what in the world is the Buddha doing that other practices were not doing’ at the time he was teaching?
Those monks neither delighted in nor rejected the statement of those wanders. Without delighting in it, without rejecting it, they rose from their seats and left, thinking, "We shall learn the meaning of this statement in the presence of the Blessed One."
Here these monks went directly to the Buddha to ask him firsthand what is the difference in the way he is teaching so they would be able to explain in future times to others! They took their alms bowls back to where they ate and had their meal and probably rested for good digestion and then afterwards, they went to find the Buddha. They told him the entire story of what had taken place and asked him to make a clear reply. At the top of page 1609 it continues on and I will break it down a little bit so you can see it more clearly:
"Monks, when wanderers of other sects speak thus, they should be asked: ‘Friends, how is the liberation of the mind by loving-kindness developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal?
How is the liberation of the mind by compassion developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal?
How is the liberation of the mind by joy developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal?
How is the liberation of the mind by equanimity developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal?
Being asked thus, those wanderers would not be able to reply and , further, they would meet with vexation. For what reason?
Because that would not be within their domain. I do not see anyone, monks, in this world with its devas, Mara, and Brahma, in this generation with its ascetics and Brahmins, its devas and humans, who could satisfy the mind with an answer to these questions except the Tathagata or a disciple of the Tathagata or one who has heard it from them.
Now here we are with the Buddha and he is letting these monks know that the answer to these questions does not lie in those other traditions. [ in other words all meditation is NOT the same and all jhana is NOT the same]. They do not have the answers for these questions. Knowing the Buddha, through other sutta texts and stories, and how curious and investigative he was by nature during his six year search when he was yet a bodisatta, one can pretty well figure that he tried those other traditions before saying this. As we are told in these stories, he had tried those traditions and it just wasn’t there that the answer lies. He continued his search for the way to liberation from the suffering and to fully understand many other things along the way.
You know, this is where Faith comes into the picture in Buddhism. The Faith is that faith we put in him that he was telling the truth and you and I do not have to go through what he went through to figure this out if we just follow his instructions without changing them. But many, many people don’t have this faith and instead, they jump all over the place trying to figure things out going tradition to tradition struggling with political correctness and any number of other things and no one seems to want to go right to the source any more and just do what the guy said to do! I don’t know about you, but I feel pretty safe in saying that if someone found something and then taught it for 45 years and left a heap of instructions, then we should examine those first and not what someone later said they mean and most especially when no one can tell you where the arahats are?
That was one of my issues in the beginning. So. Americans have been doing this Buddhism for over 50 years now and so, where are the arahats? It says right here in the scriptures that this practice he did was easily accessible, easy to do all the time, with benefits and results that happen right away in our lives. And he described those results that should be happening in many places in the suttas. So why would you go to a book about meditation that doesn’t do that? That isn’t readily accessible, that doesn’t being immediate results etc? Over time I discovered that people were just not going to the right source. It’s still here, available, with immediate benefits and results. You gotta know where it is AND you gotta know HOW to test it and examine it for yourself.
BTW- The thing that springs up for us here in this sutta is that the Buddha is using the 4 Noble Truths once again as a tool for his investigation training if you look closely. We are shown here how the 4 Noble Truths, all of them or a part of them, are a viable pattern of investigation to follow in order to figure things out! The questions here for instance,
What is Loving-kindness? What is Compassion? What is Altruistic Joy? What is Equanimity? These demonstrate the First Noble Truth being used just like with "What is Suffering?"
Then we are examining within our practice What is the Cause of Loving-kindness, Compassion, Joy, Equanimity?
By practicing Loving-kindness we come to experience the cessation of formations and this is the Third Noble Truth
Last the Buddha talks about the path talking about the arising Factors of Enlightenment with each of the Brahma Viharas and then the point of culmination as you go down the path using this method of meditation which is the Fourth noble Truth.
Then the Buddha moves on to precisely examining the destination of, the culmination, of the fruit of, and the final goal of these states.
So he is demonstrating the "uninterrupted practice " that must take place during this investigation to find this out. This is why we do retreats for this very deep level of meditation work.
As he starts in with the good stuff, the Buddha gets down to explaining the destination, the culmination, the fruit, and the final goal of each of the four stages of breaking down the barriers on the way to Nibbana, or, practicing the Brahma Viharas.
And how, monks, is the liberation of the mind by loving kindness developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, and its final goal? Here, monks, a monk develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness accompanied by loving-kindness, …[the enlightenment factor of investigation accompanied by Loving-kindness, the enlightenment factor of energy accompanied by loving-kindness, the enlightenment factor of JOY accompanied by loving-kindness, the enlightenment factor of Tranquility accompanied by loving-kindness, the enlightenment factor of concentration [collectedness] accompanied by loving-kindness, and the factor of equanimity accompanied by loving-kindness, based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release.
Here we are told that in order to reach the ultimate liberation we have to experience the enlightenment factors. The Buddha is telling us that if we practice loving-kindness we will experience these factors.
Now it is obvious here that this is not a short thing to do! To do this the Noble ones went into seclusion, meaning that to a location in the forest where they could be in sequestered retreat alone only getting food and no other activity than meditation. They did not go out of the area for the phone. Nor did they go to the library, of which there were none, to do research and think. They did not move from place to place or communicate with anyone while doing this precise in depth work of meditation other than for the logistics of supporting each others living there.
Isn't the SECLUSION here the type of seclusion you practice in the midst of all the distractions and not necessarily physical seclusion?
Yes. Now this would be true. But at the time within the Banyan tree a monk would sit alone and would be as secluded as possible from all disturbances to do this work….
They practiced with a dispassionate attitude towards everything. What do I mean? Well, for instance, all food was considered "energy" that would sustain them to continue their practice. There was not choose a cuisine but rather they accepted whatever they were given. They relinquished ‘making decisions about anything’ and mixed the food together in a bowl and ate it at the appointed time each day. Then they continued their meditation. They neither reached for or pushed away any arising phenomenon they experienced at any of their sense doors. They simply let it be, let everything fall away. They did not Crave anything because they were practicing how to let it go. They practiced ceasing of as much Clinging as possible with an impersonal perspective on everything.
Is this the CESSATION? Why wouldn't it be cessation of craving?
Actually this is the level where habitual tendency to crave has been greatly reduced. To live like this is a steady practice not to submit to the tendency of "I" like or "I" don’t like. This is where the training leads.
[if you do not Crave, you would not cling they were gradually discovering] They let go of anything arising. They recognized any thought arising and abandoned [released] it and each time this occurred, they relaxed ALL tension in the body and the mind, smiling lightly, returning to their object of meditation and continuing on again. Sound familiar?.
Yes it is familiar - but where in this sutta does it say that?
All suttas don’t say everything. The error is to take one sutta and believe it alone is the answer. The monks who were listening to this discussion were speaking on particular points here. They had already integrated the 6 R’s we are learning completely and this talk as about how far one can go using the Brahma Viharas.
The had relinquished their possessions and here pursued the meditation, ardent and resolute on Loving-kindness to see what happened next! They encouraged each other as they went along too.
Obviously this was done over a period of time. This is why the monks and nuns seeked the Noble Supramundane Path, totally committed and doing this all the time. Lay persons found much relief learning to do the practice, using it in their lives all the time, and finding a large degree of relief. Remember too, at that time they were not reading and thinking the way we do today. They did this practice and that’s how they figured things out through personal experience.
The Buddha goes on here to explain how the monk mediated;
If he wishes, ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrespulsive in the repulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the unrepulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive and in the repulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive and in the unrepulsive, ‘ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein. If he wishes:’ May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive and in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the unrepulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘Avoiding both the unrepulsive and the repulsive, may I dwell equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending,’ then he dwells therein equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending.
In this sutta, one gets a clear picture of the meticulous investigative work the monk is doing in the meditation as he goes along. He may spend a day on each part of the above until he is at ease with it entirely within the frame of Loving-kindness before moving on to the nest phase. He is experimenting with the dispassion of it all the entire time noticing how he was hooked before by so much attachment and aversion.
It continues on:
Or else he enters and dwells in the deliverance of the beautiful. Monks, the liberation of mind by loving-kindness has the beautiful as its culmination, I say, for a wise monk here who has been penetrated to a superior liberation.
There is a commentarial opinion that goes to great lengths to explain that the ‘beautiful’ here means that the monk now uses a kasina in order to jump into the formless states but the sutta doesn’t talk about this at all and one can suspect the writer didn’t do the exercise himself to see what happens but rather assumed. If you practice yourself and check this out doing the meditation, following the instructions precisely as you have heard them in the Satipatthana sutta and the Anapanasati sutta but applied to the Loving-kindness meditation, you are likely to realize that the loving-kindness will carry you through the ‘aware’ jhanas as the Buddha was practicing very deeply. He was not talking about Absorption here.
The sutta goes on here:
"And how, monks, is the liberation of the mind by compassion developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal? Here, monks, a monk develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness accompanied by compassion…the enlightenment factor of equanimity accompanied by compassion, based on seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell percieivng the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein… If he wishes:’ Avoiding both the unrepulsive and the repulsive, may I dwell equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending.’ Then he dwells therein equnimously, mindful and clearly comprehending. Or else, with the complete transcendence of perceptions of forms, with the passing away of perceptions of sensory impingement, with nonattention to perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite,’ he enters and dwells in the base of infinity of space. Monks, the liberation of mind by compassion has the base of infinity of space as it’s culmination, I say, for a wise monk here who has not penetrates to a superior liberation.
Any words on how the equanimity of the Brahma Viharas is related and different from the enlightenment factor of equanimity?
This sutta sits in the Connected Discourses on the Factors of enlightenment and this IS that level of "Equanimity". Yes.
To this point, we are being told that Loving-kindness goes to the Fourth Jhana which has very strong Equanimity. Then we see Compassion go into Infinite Space.
"And how, monks, is the liberation of the mind by Altruistic Joy developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal? Here, monks, a monk develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness accompanied by Altruistic Joy…the enlightenment factor of equanimity accompanied by Altruistic Joy, based on seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein… If he wishes:’ Avoiding both the unrepulsive and the repulsive, may I dwell equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending.’ Then he dwells therein equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending. Or else, by completely transcending the base of infinity, aware that consciousness is infinite,’ he enters and dwells in the base of the infinity of consciousness. Monks, the liberation of mind by Altruistic Joy has the base of the infinity of consciousness as it’s culmination, I say, for a wise monk here who has not penetrated to a superior liberation.
What is superior liberation?
Superior Liberation would be that liberation that is permanent and does not slip ! such liberation has reached a level of automatic Release without any more volition about it ! AND the unwholesome ceases arising altogether too.
Here we see Altruistic Joy go as far as the base of the infinity of consciousness as its culmination. This should not be believed but tested! Try it. You’ll see for yourself. It will be shown by personal investigation to be true.
You tempt me! This seems a natural to me since I have long thought and advocated a "middle road" in reacting to events - in delightful happenings to consider the downside and not get over elated and in tragic events to see the "silver lining" - to be equanimous to everything - tho I didn't use that wording. Are you actually recommending this? The meditation practice seems quite different in detail from the instructions in loving kindness meditation as presented by Bhante. - Can both methods be done together?
There is no difference. This is only a graduated level of the same meditation. Upon reaching the Arupa jhana ( Immaterial Jhanas) one continues on but the activity of anything arising is occurring at the microscopic level now, almost not at all.
"And how, monks, is the liberation of the mind by Equanimity developed? What does it have as its destination, its culmination, its fruit, its final goal? Here, monks, a monk develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness accompanied by Equanimity…the enlightenment factor of equanimity accompanied by Equanimity, based on seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell percieivng the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein… If he wishes:’ Avoiding both the unrepulsive and the repulsive, may I dwell equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending.’ Then he dwells therein equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending. Or else, by completely transcending the base of the infinity of consciousness, aware that there is nothing,’ he enters and dwells in the base of nothingness. Monks, the liberation of mind by Equanimity has the base of nothingness as it’s culmination, I say, for a wise monk here who has not penetrates to a superior liberation.
End sutta text.
So there you have it. How far can Loving-kindness and the practice of the Brahma Viharas go? It culminates at the point of as far as the "base of nothingness"! Many people don’t know this. Many never look into a whole sutta or if they do and they have the wrong working definitions for mindfulness and meditation, they won’t understand what they are reading. Understanding how far the Brahma Viharas go another thing becomes clear. The practice of loving-kindness is not a practice to be isolated or to be put into shortform and used bang, bang, bang! This practice, which was mentioned many more times than the breath meditation, led very far along the path to Nibbana, was meant to be embraced and used all the time and for good for all situations. It is VERY powerful tool for helping ourselves and helping others physically and mentally.
From the base of nothingness, one can then enter into the state of Neither perception nor non-perception, then on to No feeling and No perception which is called Nirodha Samapada. At that point one can experience ‘the taints being destroyed by seeing with wisdom’ which means seeing clearly the impersonal process of dependent origination forwards and in the reverse order very clearly: Nibbana.
Some differences here.
Obviously presenting the practice of loving-kindness in this way is not the norm today. You are not likely to find any books anywhere but the suttas that preserve this information. People tend to present it in a very fast progression without explanation of the power that people can develop by practicing this way You may say, well,, that doesn’t make sense. And I would have to say, well, that’s the way of it right now.
With a resolute gradual approach, this practice is a progression of power which is developed as one goes along. Each time the practitioner is examining the ‘repulsive or non-repulsive ‘etc. that is a way of testing the stableness of the equanimity within that level before moving on to the next level.
The different states here are where the practitioner experiences a change in the feeling of the practice they are doing.
For instance, at the point where a yogi is practicing loving-kindness and they reach the fourth jhana, they will feel a significant shift as they come to the base of infinite space. It will feel different and they will explain to the guiding teacher and this change indicates to the teacher that the student should now move on to the Compassion phase of the practice. It’s like that. It’s a progression you go through and the power is getting stronger and stronger all the time.
By presenting a very fast presentation of the brahma viharas or this set of meditation phases and without explanation, the student doesn’t’ get the full picture of the power of what they are learning, the good they can do with it, OR the level of attainment they can progress to by doing this practice. It isn’t clear. I have witnessed this. It’s a shame this has been diluted down to the level it has been. But at the same time, it is understandable how, if the teacher has put their faith in a commentarial work to explain what this practice is, rather than going to ask directly in the suttas, this is what happens. Although it sounds good, it disagrees with the sutta texts when it comes to meditation and it short changes the student badly..
So to answer the original question the ‘beautiful’ is at the level of strong, firm Equanimity which is the condition of the state of the Fourth Jhana and this is where the loving-kindness changes. The feeling shifts. When it shifts it is a sign to move on with the Compassion work to be done. I will not tell you how it shifts. You must come to the teacher and tell him so he will know when to guide you to the next step and so on.
Hope this helps you to understand a little better.
It was a good exercise to do this too so I can learn how to explain it more clearly.
Could still use some shortening up but it’s a start, anyway.
Much Metta.
Khanti-Khema
Dhamma Sukha Meditation Center.
Annapolis, MO
March 26th- 2006
Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 12 Years ago at 12/8/11 7:50 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/8/11 7:50 AM
RE: Can I get samatha jhanas by doing metta?
Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
I remember Ajahn Brahm's Minduflness Bliss and Beyond talks about using the pleasant feeling in the chest generated by metta to enter jhana -- his other techniques are drastically different to what's generally talked about here and elsewhere though. Even so, it's a good read.
bill of the wandering mind, modified 12 Years ago at 12/8/11 8:15 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/8/11 8:15 AM
RE: Can I get samatha jhanas by doing metta?
Posts: 131 Join Date: 4/14/11 Recent Posts
Yes. If you want to try that method you can do so on your own or join the Yahoo group Ehipassikho run by Sister Khema, who is teaching how to do jhana with metta in a way that some of the more advanced yogis here have become interested in lately. Apparently she has a fairly straightforward way of using it to go all the way up the arc/maps to get path as well. That is what I am currently doing, although I am yet a ways from getting into jhana. She and Bhante V say that with metta progress is very fast for most people if done properly. Metta is a powerful thing, I am finding. So is a smile. Amazing and overlooked.