Context: currently been in Equanimity for a couple months; hopeful for stream entry soon. practicing at least two hours everyday. mainly focusing on getting concentration strong to awaken
I can cycle the first four jhanas pretty well by just inclining toward the specific mode of attention/feeling. typically use the breath at the nostrils as object. only takes like 10-15 mins to cycle up to fourth jhana. however, the jhana states are not super deep, blissful, or trance-like. They're just pleasant and subtle shifts in perception; i actually didn't even notice them for a while

i would like advice on how to develop the jhanas deeper as well as how to go beyond the fourth and into formless territory.

I've gotten close I think; my body has disapeared at least partially on two seperate occassions but i think the surprise of it snapped me out of it. i haven't been able to reproduce the body disapearing, though i've been trying. 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1rtLrOyfiHzq_Ed0Go2B_zqxExa-Q49IJ

​​​​​​​Listen to talk number 4 for a discussion of the ayatanas - formless realms (jhana 5 to 8)

For me, the arupa jhanas are accessible when the rupa jhanas are well-formed, by which I basically mean, "hard." When I was having trouble getting a good fourth jhana, my teacher recommended a few things, all of which worked for me:

1) spend more time in access concentration (up to one hour in really well-formed access concentration) before entering first;
2) really work on getting each jhana and each jhana feature completely, so that, you are fully immersed in it, and soaked through by it (my teacher would say, "so thick that you could cut it with a knife"), and work on a excellent first for a whole sit before moving to second, then the same for second, etc.; and
3) use the first four jhanas like a trampoline -- from fourth, let third build again very slowly, getting a careful, intimate feel for it, letting it shape and density, from that well-formed third, keeping the emphasis on sukkha, invite piti, and so on, back to a really hard first, then make the traditional moves all the way to fourth, and start the reverse order again -- you can do this three, four, or more times.

It is good to develop these so that each jhana is shockingly strong. 

Another thing I found was the fifth is a good test of fourth. In fourth, straighten the back or incline the attention to the far periphery of awareness and see what happens. If space rushes away from you on all sides, for example, then your fourth was solid, and you can move into fifth, if not keep working on fourth, which often means working on third, and so on back to access concentration. 

This is kind of a plain, direct approach, and takes quite a bit of time, but it can work well.

To make them more-trance like you have to have stronger concentration and move as little as possible (but I don't advocate sitting through pain that can cause a spine or knee injury). I have reached very deep states moving occasionally, but in general the less you move the faster/easier it is to get into deep states.

To make the emotions more intense focus your attention on the pleasant aspect of the emotion and concentrate on that. The intense emotions are produced by a feedback loop where focusing on the pleasant feeling is pleasant which increases the pleasure etc, like when a microphone is too close to the speaker and it makes a loud screeching noise. You need to keep attention steady to keep the feedback loop going. It can help to try this when you are naturally happy so it is easier to do.

To get to the higher jhanas more concentration will help and relaxation may help. The first time I experienced any jhana it was the fifth jhana which would occur when I would do relaxation exercises. At the time I didn't know anything about jhanas I was just trying to relax - but relaxation exercises involve attention too so they are a form of meditation -  so I think more in terms of access relaxation than access concentration, although some concentration is needed - I find you get the concentration you need for intense soft jhanas from the relaxation exercises/meditation. 

I have some more suggestions on my blog.

Watch the Beth Upton videos on YouTube. They're very concise and to the point.

Read Leigh Brasington's Right Concentration, he covers some of that in his interview with Michael Taft at Deconstructing Yourself (the one on jhanas; the other one is on dependent origination). Even though his "sutta jhanas" are softer by comparison, I found them approachable and very much useful. Beth Upton's instructions (such as stabilizing the nimitta for an hour before going into j1) are a different level — I did not find it of much use for my practice.

The fact that the jhanas aren't particularly blissful for you and that you didn't even notice them at first makes me wonder if what you're experiencing is in fact jhana. You really can't miss the first jhana. It's intense rapture. Also, although the fifth and sixth jhanas, ime, require contriving them deliberately, the seventh jhana can follow quickly from the fourth, and the eighth from the seventh. Since you're practicing so regularly, I would have thought you would have experienced them by now. But maybe you have and are just calling those states the fourth jhana. Also I don't recall the disappearance of the body being a thing in jhana, although you perceive it less in the eighth.

I would recommend getting very, very relaxed, fully letting go of your "stuff," and doing whatever it is that intensifies the feelings of what you're calling jhana. This may include focusing on something other than the breath at the nostrils. I recommend focusing on whatever is most apparent in your field of awareness. Also, jhanic states usually feel more intense while lying down.

Thank u for the info! I'm sure you're right, I'm probably not experiencing jhanas; not sure exactly what it is. there is a shift my attention that kind of mimics what i've heard about the attentional fields of jhanas. once i establish good concentration, my attention is very narrow accompanied by pleasant bodily sensations, warmth, and happiness(not super intense though); i call this the first jhana. i can develop the attention to become a bit broader and stable along with more pleasant sensations which i call second jhana. next, the attention becomes weak in the center but broad and inclusive around what feels like kind of my peripheral vision; the body feels more comfortably numb than it does pleasurable; i call this third jhana. Fourth jhana is most inclusive attention, i get my center of attention back while keeping the broadness of previous stage; it feels very spacious, pleasant and warm; my attention feels kind of "spherical" if that makes sense

I seem to be able to either stay in these attentional modes or move between them at will. they are not super intense or trance-like; my mind can still wander and i still get restless after a while. I have been able to develop these states to be more blissful and trance-like but still not to the level i have heard described by other meditators when talking about jhana. i get a sort of "chunky" or "thick" feeling when i get deeper into these states

​​​​​​​What exactly am I experiencing? And what things should i do to further my practice(stream entry is main goal as of right now)?

To me, the state you label the first jhana sounds like it could be the lead-up to jhana. Just to be more clear on what sort of state the first jhana refers to, it's what people call a "conversion experience": a spiritual experience so intense that it causes them to say they found God. I know that's not very Buddhist of me to say, but I hope people here will forgive me given Daniel's chapter on how Buddhism maps to other faiths. I'm just trying to describe more accurately what jhana is like. As one continues meditating, that feeling of rapture gradually subsides to the second and third jhanas, which one might describe as a deep feeling of love.

I wouldn't describe jhana as "trance-like," so not sure I would recommend going in that direction. I still think the recommendations in my previous post may help, but I'll add that metta meditations may also help. A mantra that's meaningful to you may help. See if something you do or think about intensifies the feelings of warmth and pleasant bodily sensations, and then do that thing more. However, you do mention that when you've tried to increase feelings of bliss, you feel "chunky" or "thick." I'm not totally sure what that means, but I definitely wouldn't use those words to describe jhana, so that sounds like the wrong direction. I wouldn't worry about what your attentional fields are. I'm not sure that will help.

In terms of how this will help you get to stream entry, it really depends. Some people have been able to attain it with "dry insight," i.e. only mindfulness with no jhana. However, the Theravada tradition holds that jhana is essential to the path because it helps put your mind into a good state you want to settle down with. Personally, I think jhana is incredible, and worth doing whether you ever attain stream entry or not. It literally changes people's lives in significant (albeit not always beneficial) ways. Before I experienced it, I did Zen meditation, which is only mindfulness, and I found that meditating so much as 10 minutes was torture and hardly ever did it. After experiencing jhana, I wanted to meditate all the time because it felt so amazing. Daniel refers to people like me as "jhana junkies." Guilty as charged lmao. However, I think the Theravadans (and Buddha) have a point: jhana is a very useful tool to use alongside mindfulness. The fact that you're able to induce pleasant bodily feelings, even if not strictly jhana, means that you can also use it in that way.

okay, thank u! you've been super helpful in clearing up my confusion 

Glad to hear it!

I just discovered that Ajahn Geoff (aka Thanissaro Bhikku) has some very detailed guidance on jhana in one of his books: https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/Ebooks/WithEachAndEveryBreath_210603.pdf. He mentions that the formless jhanas do involve the sense of the body going away so sorry for not having remembered that! (I never really noticed, which people can say means I haven't actually experienced them, if they like.)