Advice on basic concentrstion?

Advice on basic concentrstion? Mikkel r 8/15/23 10:32 AM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Ni Nurta 8/15/23 2:15 PM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Pepe · 8/15/23 4:27 PM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Martin 8/15/23 5:23 PM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Jim Smith 8/15/23 10:00 PM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? User 08 8/16/23 1:20 AM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Mikkel r 8/16/23 7:48 AM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Jim Smith 8/16/23 8:10 AM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Chris M 8/16/23 10:17 AM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? User 08 8/16/23 11:06 PM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? User 08 8/17/23 12:36 AM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Martin 8/16/23 3:00 PM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? User 08 8/16/23 11:52 PM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Mikkel r 8/16/23 9:23 AM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Jim Smith 8/16/23 1:49 PM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Pepe · 8/16/23 4:46 PM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Mikkel r 8/18/23 3:41 AM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Jim Smith 8/18/23 6:30 AM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Jim Smith 8/18/23 7:03 AM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? User 08 8/18/23 1:27 PM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Martin 8/19/23 1:36 AM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Pepe · 8/18/23 8:19 AM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Ni Nurta 8/18/23 11:08 AM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Pepe · 8/19/23 3:53 PM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Ni Nurta 8/21/23 2:52 AM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Pepe · 8/22/23 8:34 AM
RE: Advice on basic concentrstion? Mikkel r 8/29/23 2:29 PM
Mikkel r, modified 8 Months ago at 8/15/23 10:32 AM
Created 8 Months ago at 8/15/23 10:32 AM

Advice on basic concentrstion?

Posts: 5 Join Date: 8/15/23 Recent Posts
Dear everyone,

I am wondering if anyone can give me advice on how to get concentrated. I seem to have an extremely hard time with this, and I believe It is the factor I need to proceed with my practice. 
I have been on five retreats now, each between 7 and 14 days, and my experience is the same every time. Most of the time, my experience of meditation is similar to not being able to fall asleep at night. I sit calmly, wide awake, following the breath, noting rising and falling. I have tried noting less or more, I have been more or less focused on the breath, I have allowed myself to note other objects, I have tried noting the sense of waiting and finding it in the body, the experience is the same 95% of the time. 
I feel like no matter what I do, I get more awake and like I am somehow not letting go. I think this because I have, a few times, succeeded in getting synchronised with the object, sort of falling into it and getting concentrated, and experiencing a deepening of consciousness, piti etc. But this has happened quite randomly, and I haven’t been able to reconstruct how it happened. At this point, I find no joy in meditating at all. It is mostly boring, or jarring to sit for days on end with nothing happening, except time going by. I go on to note the boredom and see it changing, but it doesn’t. 
I am very disciplined with the practice on retreat, and it usually takes me around a week to start to lose patience. I meticulously note the sensations in the body corresponding to every action, as well as most intentions, and only rarely get lost in thought during the day.
When I ask teachers on retreat, they usually say something like just keep noting or just stay with the breath, or don’t try to make it happen, but all of that doesn’t help me see what to do different.
Any advice is very welcome, as I am close to giving up meditation. Thank you emoticon!
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Ni Nurta, modified 8 Months ago at 8/15/23 2:15 PM
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RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

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When you focus on object do nothing with experience of that object as it is and instead you need to find jhanic experiences of the object - it won't be the same experience of the object you have changing in any way but different experiences. The normal jhanic experience will disappear when jhanic experience gets hold.

This can be done with all experiences and is related to the fact jhanas are just experiences using spare copies of faculties which usually involve multiple copies being active at the same time. This parallel activation is the source for the impression jhanic experiences are somehow wider than normal experiences in some at first unexplainable way.

Practical consideration here would be that it is easier to practice this on experience of body rather than external objects eg. breath. I liked to practice it on my hand. Also do not drag on this - it is about doing it quickly and not waiting forever for something to happen. Of course at first it might take some time but the intention here should be to have these things found quickly - seconds rather than even minutes. Also anything which feels like hindrance find its jhanic version before trying to interact with it in any way.

With some practice and brain getting used to these experiences and finding them it is possible to completely forego "normal" experiences and the moment experience is to arise it will not arise as normal experience but its jhanic version - so in practice not experiencing "normal" experiences at all. It also makes more normal concentration practice much easier.

When I ask teachers on retreat, they usually say something like just keep noting or just stay with the breath, or don’t try to make it happen

Hint: most people who stuck with practice are those whose mind naturally changes something about how they do things in meditation when they do things in meditation and slowly these changes accumulate until they can experience jhanas without usually realizing they are not doing what they did at the beginning - do not expect thus good advices from most people, they just weren't ever mindful enough to have meanigful insight. Mindfulness itself is not just passive observation but noticing something and doing whole lot of tests to figure out something out of it.

Any advice is very welcome, as I am close to giving up meditation. Thank you emoticon!

The kind of meditation which feels like waste of time you should probably drop emoticon
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Pepe ·, modified 8 Months ago at 8/15/23 4:27 PM
Created 8 Months ago at 8/15/23 4:27 PM

RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

Posts: 717 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
Just a few options coming to my mind that you could try:

1. body scanning a la Goenka
2. full body breath, felt as if breathing through the pores (easier if you have some experience in Qigong)
3. release tensions in the head (triggered by thoughts or non-verbal intentions)
4. in-breath only up to 80-90% of your standard intake (once your mind is calm)
5. observe if even when calm, that your (closed) eyes tend to move 'too much'

​​​​​​​
Martin, modified 8 Months ago at 8/15/23 5:23 PM
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RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

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Which books (videos, instructions, etc.) are you working from? 
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Jim Smith, modified 8 Months ago at 8/15/23 10:00 PM
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RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

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Mikkel r
Dear everyone,

I am wondering if anyone can give me advice on how to get concentrated. I seem to have an extremely hard time with this, and I believe It is the factor I need to proceed with my practice. 
...


I'm not really clear on what you think the problem is.

Firstly what are you trying to accomplish with meditation? Tranquility? Metta? Jhanas (hard or soft), nondual states? Stream entry (defined how)? realizing anatta?

Do you have trouble staying focused on the object of meditation? Does your mind wander too much so you can't get access concentration?

Leigh Brasington defines access concentration like this:

http://www.leighb.com/jhana2a.htm
​​​​​​​How do you know access concentration has been established? The mind is fully with the object of meditation and, if there are any thoughts, they are wispy and in the background; they do not draw you away from the meditation object.

If you can clarify what you are expecting that is not happening I think you might get better answers to your question.

One thing that might help, I consider it a general tonic for whatever ails you, is preparing for other types of meditation with a type of meditation that is relaxing: https://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2020/08/preparing-for-meditation-with.html

If you are interested in experiencing piti (joy) and sukha (tranquil happiness), this might help:
https://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2020/10/a-quick-guide-to-producing-bliss-with.html

Metta:
https://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2020/10/metta-meditation.html
User 08, modified 8 Months ago at 8/16/23 1:20 AM
Created 8 Months ago at 8/15/23 10:56 PM

RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

Posts: 57 Join Date: 7/31/23 Recent Posts
I completely understand where you're coming from. I started with Zen, and lost interest pretty quickly because meditation (which, in Zen, is usually counting the breath or "just sitting") ranged from boring to excruciating. Then, about a decade later, I had a profound spiritual experience (i.e. the first jhana) and I was like ohhh, I get it now. Meditation from then on was usually extremely pleasant. I think you're right to peg concentration as what's missing in your practice. Although advocates of noting practice tend to look down on jhana, Buddha (and thus the Thai Forest tradition) deemed it as essential to the path because it helps put the mind (and body) in a good place. Without it, frankly, I would just never meditate.

So I would recommend having a profound spiritual experience however you can. emoticon Hours and hours of meditation or sitting in a particular posture aren't necessary to make it happen. It happens to some people spontaneously, e.g. when they see a breath-taking view of nature. It often happens in a God-related context, if you're into that sort of thing. If you're not, Thanissaro Bhikkhu's instructions on breath meditation are, from what I can tell, basically designed to induce jhana: https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/Ebooks/WithEachAndEveryBreath_210603.pdf. It requires getting extremely relaxed both mentally and physically and letting go of your "stuff" and fully surrendering. This can be tricky. Metta meditation may help. A mantra that's meaningful to you may help. You can absolutely make it happen. If you feel a sense of love or bliss, try to lean into those feelings. If something seems to be intensifying it, do it more.
Mikkel r, modified 8 Months ago at 8/16/23 7:48 AM
Created 8 Months ago at 8/16/23 7:48 AM

RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

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Dear everyone,

Thank you for taking the time to respond here, much appreciated!

Ni Nurta: I am not sure I understand most of what you suggest, it is much too advanced an understanding for me emoticon. I think I need to get to Jhana first to really understand what you mean. But I take your advice to change nothing about the object, and find your description of teachers very apt. 

Pepe: thanks! I actually did a goenka retreat once and managed to get quite focused with that practice, though it didn’t seem to go anywhere from there. Will try to incorporate it. Interesting about the eyes. Do you mean physically or the “Inter eye”? I sometimes have a sense that my vision turns towards an object when it arises, even if I don’t think my eyes actually physically move. 

Martin: I am working from Mahasi’s instructions as I have found them in books as well as some instruction I received at Satipanya by Bhante there, also in the Mahasi tradition. Maybe I should start with some samatha practice before learning vipassana?

Jim Smith: Thanks! Honestly I am not sure what I ultimately want to achieve. I have been working within a vipassana framework and read about the progress of insight, but don’t dare to hope to achieve those before I have a better understanding of how the practice even works. What I want to achieve first is a somewhat solid sense of the technique of deepening consciousness into more subtle states and accessing the intuition that goes with them. Does that make sense?

I believe I drift in and out of access concentration, but the question I am trying to answer at this point is why. It sounds stupid to me, but I am still uncertain as to how to focus on the object correctly. What does one do or not do with it? There seems to be a billion ways to configure the mind towards an object. How did you approach the breath or other object when you just got started with meditating?

User 08: exactly! As I wrote above, there seems to be an infinity of ways to “just watch the breath”, and most of them don’t lead to anything. Can you describe what you did differently after your experience? I will check out that instruction and try to find out more about Jhana. 


And and to all of you: when you first “got” how meditation works, what did it for you? How did you start relating to the meditation object? There seems to be something very fundamental that most people take for granted that I am not getting, and I really want to know what it isn’t. 
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Jim Smith, modified 8 Months ago at 8/16/23 8:10 AM
Created 8 Months ago at 8/16/23 8:09 AM

RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

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Mikkel r


Jim Smith: Thanks! Honestly I am not sure what I ultimately want to achieve. I have been working within a vipassana framework and read about the progress of insight, but don’t dare to hope to achieve those before I have a better understanding of how the practice even works. What I want to achieve first is a somewhat solid sense of the technique of deepening consciousness into more subtle states and accessing the intuition that goes with them. Does that make sense?
"deepening consciousness into more sublte states and accessing the intuition that goes with them."

No that doesn't make sense to me.

The answers I think are reasonable are: to help relieve stress, or to end suffering and the others I suggested in my previous post.


I believe I drift in and out of access concentration, but the question I am trying to answer at this point is why. It sounds stupid to me, but I am still uncertain as to how to focus on the object correctly. What does one do or not do with it? There seems to be a billion ways to configure the mind towards an object. How did you approach the breath or other object when you just got started with meditating?

It is normal to drift in and out of access concentration. It is because the human brain is a blob of protoplasm not a digital computer. You can't focus incorrectly. Every time you lose concentration it is reality telling you you don't control your own mind if you don't control it it is independent from you, it is not you or yours. It is reality telling you that all things, including concentration are impermanent. It is reality telling you nothing including concentration is satisfactory. These are the three marks of existing, 1) not self (wherever you look you won't find "self" including in your own mind), 2) impermanence, and 3) dukkha (suffering or unsatisfactoriness) So keep meditating as you are, notice it is unsatisfactory, inconsistent, and uncontrollable. That is exactly right. 

When I started meditating I was 11 or 12 years old I think. I read an article in a magazine and either I misunderstood it or the author was confused because I meditated by repeating the word "mantra" to myself which is how I thought the article said to do it.


And and to all of you: when you first “got” how meditation works, what did it for you? How did you start relating to the meditation object? There seems to be something very fundamental that most people take for granted that I am not getting, and I really want to know what it isn’t.

I think this is your mistake. It isn't what we are taking for granted, it is some false expectation you have that other people don't. I think you have some misunderstanding of what meditation is and what is should be like.

I started meditating to help deal with stress. I still think the best way to meditate is like this, after I do that nothing bothers me, it produces tranquility.
Mikkel r, modified 8 Months ago at 8/16/23 9:23 AM
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RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

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Jim Smith:

Okay, then I would say that I meditation because I am interested in the mind and because I hope it will help me let go of some unhealthy attachments to stuff like being smart that I have. But my idea was that the practice should essentially be the same irrespective of ones personal purpose?

I wonder how what you describe as meditation would then differ from just considering things as one ordinarily does? If there isn’t an array of states of consciousness to be reached in which one is able to intuitively grasp certain aspects of the mind and reality, then why practice formal meditation?

As for the idea that there is something I am not getting, you may be right. Still it leaves me wondering why some people are quite proficient in dropping into deep meditative states, while others like me struggle so much, if there isn’t some kind of technique involved. What is your thought on that?

​​​​​​​thanks again!
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Chris M, modified 8 Months ago at 8/16/23 10:17 AM
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RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

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When I got into meditation many years ago, it was because I was really damned curious about the source and cause of my anxiety and all the related mind stuff. Without knowing the cause of my suffering it made little sense to apply a patch. Knowing how the mind works and what it is, what really makes me human, was my objective. And it turns out this was also the key to awakening.
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Jim Smith, modified 8 Months ago at 8/16/23 1:49 PM
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RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

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Mikkel r
Jim Smith:

Okay, then I would say that I meditation because I am interested in the mind and because I hope it will help me let go of some unhealthy attachments to stuff like being smart that I have. But my idea was that the practice should essentially be the same irrespective of ones personal purpose?

Watch your mind and see how the emotions caused by attachments arise. You can do this during meditation and daily life. Meditation should quiet your mind somewhat so you don't get so involved in (carried away by) thoughts, emotions, and impulses making it easier to watch what is happening. Noticing the feelings in your body that accompany emotions can help too. This can release a lot of suppressed emotions so you should decide of you what that to happen before you start this practice. (Actually suppressed emotions coming to the surface can cause difficulty concentrating as the mind tries to avoid acknowledging them.)

There are different views about the purpose of meditation. Consider Ajahn Chah's views which Jack Kornfield described as:

As Ajahn Chah described them, meditative states are not important in themselves. Meditation is a way to quiet the mind so you can practice all day long wherever you are; see when there is grasping or aversion, clinging or suffering; and then let it go.

Do you notice any effects of meditation? Does it make you feel tranquil after a meditation session?

I tend to judge progress more by what happens outside of meditation rather than during meditation.


I wonder how what you describe as meditation would then differ from just considering things as one ordinarily does? If there isn’t an array of states of consciousness to be reached in which one is able to intuitively grasp certain aspects of the mind and reality, then why practice formal meditation?

Meditating involves experiencing the present moment (whether its focus is the breath, noting, or a mantra) rather than thinking about the past future or trying to solve problems - this activates a different brain network (the experiential network) than considering things as one ordinarily does (which activates the default network).


As for the idea that there is something I am not getting, you may be right. Still it leaves me wondering why some people are quite proficient in dropping into deep meditative states, while others like me struggle so much, if there isn’t some kind of technique involved. What is your thought on that?

​​​​​​​thanks again!

Every one is different.

I also think things like cellphone apps and internet use in general decrease attention span so there could be a generational difference. People who grew up before the internet might have it easier. 

It's hard to really tell what is going on in someone else's head but I also suspect your expectations are too high. Concentration is really much harder than you think it should be. You are expecting too much too soon. For now don't look for meditation to produce altered states or perfect concentration,  just try to notice if it gives you a quieter mind, and if you feel calmer in daily life. If you can notice that effect you have a way to measure how effective your practice is. It can still vary a lot from day to day but you should have some indication it is doing something for you.

If your mind is quieter like that, it should make it easier to observe emotions as they arise and fade, and that observation leads to insight that weakens attachments. You see that the activity of the mind is more a sequence of cause and effect that causes suffering than an expression of the will of a conscious entity and you feel less ownership over those emotions, less attached to the thoughts etc. Consider that thoughts, emotions, impulses pop into consciousness without any effort on your part. Where do they come from? Unconscious processes. If you don't control them, they are independent from you they are not you or yours - why be attached to them? You don't need perfect concentration or altered states to make progress doing this, just a somewhat tranquil mind and the interest in how your mind works, and a lot of repeated observations.
Martin, modified 8 Months ago at 8/16/23 3:00 PM
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RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

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Thanks for your reply, Mikkel. And thanks for taking the time to reply to everyone else too. That makes it easier to get the general picture. I'm interested in your question because concentration is a mainstay of my practice and I like to offer what I know on the subject. I did actually write a long reply but, when I was trying to edit it down to a more manageable length, I realized that, for the reply to be useful, I need to ask a few more questions.

Do you have a daily, at-home practice? You mention what happens on retreat, but I am curious about off retreat. If you do practice at home, what is it like? How long do you sit? What intention do you start your sit with? What do you like most about sitting? Do you get bored/impatient? Do you experience any unusual sensations or any habitual sensations that come up at at certain point in the sit? 
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Pepe ·, modified 8 Months ago at 8/16/23 4:46 PM
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RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

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> Interesting about the eyes. Do you mean physically or the “Inter eye”? I sometimes have a sense that my vision turns towards an object when it arises, even if I don’t think my eyes actually physically move. 

Yeah, I believe it's mostly the opening and closing of the iris (a reaction to visuals and thoughts), though there's tension building/decreasing in the eyeballs too. The whole point of this is to observe the greed/aversion reaction to phenomena (and the reaction to that reaction) and so learn to dwell equanimously in that pushing/pulling space. What works for me is merging into the 'flow' aspect of the sensations (mostly breath or energy) or visuals. Also, trying (on and off) to inbreath up to the 80-90% of usual breath. There's a conection between less oxygen and jhana, I read somewhere.
User 08, modified 8 Months ago at 8/16/23 11:06 PM
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RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

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Chris M
When I got into meditation many years ago, it was because I was really damned curious about the source and cause of my anxiety and all the related mind stuff. Without knowing the cause of my suffering it made little sense to apply a patch. Knowing how the mind works and what it is, what really makes me human, was my objective. And it turns out this was also the key to awakening.
I'd love to hear more about this, if you're up for it. emoticon
User 08, modified 8 Months ago at 8/16/23 11:52 PM
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RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

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I tried to post a response to this twice but it didn't work. Third time's a charm (sorry if it's a duplicate):
Mikkel r
    User 08: exactly! As I wrote above, there seems to be an infinity of ways to “just watch the breath”, and most of them don’t lead to anything. Can you describe what you did differently after your experience? I will check out that instruction and try to find out more about Jhana.

    And and to all of you: when you first “got” how meditation works, what did it for you? How did you start relating to the meditation object? There seems to be something very fundamental that most people take for granted that I am not getting, and I really want to know what it isn’t.

Haha, that's so true. emoticon What my spiritual experience made me realize is that what makes the breath interesting is that it fuels jhana. In the lower jhanas, each inward breath intensifies the sensation of pleasure, like blowing oxygen on a flame. Ajahn Geoff sort of gets at this idea by suggesting that you follow not the breath but the breath *energy*. Notice how it affects your whole body, not just the humdrum in-out.

In the higher jhanas, the reason I focus on the breath isn't because it's pleasure-inducing but because my mind is so quiet at that point that the breath is the only game in town. It's pretty much the only thing left to notice. (The danger of mentioning all the jhana levels is that I imagine it sounds weird and esoteric, but honestly it's quite common. I'm almost certain it's the same feeling that Christians refer to when they talk about the presence of God.)

I don't think what I did after experiencing jhana is going to be of much help to you. What I did to induce it will likely be much more helpful. But since you ask, for several weeks after my experience, I just duplicated it over and over using the same methods I described. It was that good. Creating that much intensity, however, is a huge expenditure of effort, and I soon learned about the 8 jhanas (at first I had no idea what I'd experienced). They made me realize that settling into a state of calm didn't mean I was doing it wrong, as I'd assumed; it meant I was doing it right.

In terms of what I do differently now versus when I started meditating: when I first started, as I mentioned, I counted the breath, and dealt with the usual issues of my mind wandering and realizing I'd left off counting, etc. To be fair, I still deal with my mind wandering every now and then, but much less frequently and for a shorter amount of time because I *want* to stay with the breath, because it's pleasant, whether it's in the form of rapture or silence. I usually settle into either a feeling of love or a sort of bare awareness that just wasn't accessible to me when I first started.

However, (spoiler alert) after a while, even the jhanas get boring. I eventually lost interest and didn't meditate at all for many years. I was also suffering less in my life during that time and didn't feel the need to meditate. So the jhanas aren't a cure-all or an instant road to enlightenment or anything.
User 08, modified 8 Months ago at 8/17/23 12:36 AM
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RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

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Jim Smith
When I started meditating I was 11 or 12 years old I think. I read an article in a magazine and either I misunderstood it or the author was confused because I meditated by repeating the word "mantra" to myself which is how I thought the article said to do it.
That's adorable. emoticon Did you get anything out of that meditation?

The first time I encountered meditation was also around that age. I was disappointed by it because I was somehow under the impression that meditation gave you magic powers or something and was surprised to read in a book that it was actually about just saying a word to yourself over and over.
Mikkel r, modified 8 Months ago at 8/18/23 3:41 AM
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RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

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Once again, thank you all for taking the time to help me out here!

Martin: I would be very interested in seeing your long reply actually. At this point, I am still finding the right questions to ask, and this might help me hone in on them, just as with the other replies. As for what you are asking, I sit 1-2 hours per day, each sit either one or a half hour. On a good day, after about 20 minutes, I start feeling warmth and tingling in my hands, or my hands and face start to feel bigger than they are. Then around what I believe is 30-40 minutes, I begin getting impatient and want to get back to my daily activities, which I then try to investigate. When you ask me what I like most about sitting, I think you are pointing towards an important area. I don't particularly like sitting in and of itself. In general I am not very much into pleasure, like eating good food, sleeping in, getting massages etc. Perhaps one difficulty is that I have a hard time taking pleasure in the relaxation and calmness that develops? As for what my intention is, I also believe this is a place where my practice is lacking. I don't sit down with any specific intention, other than to try and get concentrated and remain mindful for the time i have decided upon. Perhaps I should read more into the progression of insight to find out how investigation works and set some goal in terms of starting to be more active in my investigation.

User 08: It sounds like the experience you had gave you something to work towards in meditation, and that knowing how to get there was a great source of motivation for remaining concentrated. I just ordered Leigh Brasington's book on jhana and will try to get to the first one, to do what you did and find some tangible experience to anchor my practice in. Thanks for the advice emoticon!

Jim Smith: Actually I really want to access repressed emotions. I have tried to do that in therapy for a while but with no great success. I once succeeded in doing it on retreat and it was very painful but also very encouraging for my practice. Your suggestion here seems to be that this occurrence is typically something that comes after the arising and overcoming of a hindrance?

As for the consequence of my meditation, most of the time I don't find that there are any significant ones. During some periods I do feel slightly more calm, but in a way that I believe could also be induced in other ways. One thing that does seem to happen is that I feel better connected to my intuition.

I like your down to earth take on the process and will take that to heart! In light of what you write, I see that I have been too concerned with the objects of the mind, rather than with the quality of the mind itself.

This brings me to another consideration, namely that I think I have been using notes in a wrong way. Perhaps based on the way I interpreted Daniel's book, I have been noting too forcefully, in a way that has become an object in its own right, covering over the objects of observation and clouding my investigation. Since starting this thread, I have tried to use "silent" notes, which feel more like simple cognitive recognitions of the object in question, and it feels like this allows my concentration to deepen more.

​​​​​​​Pepe: That is very interesting. Do you have any sense of where you fix your inner gaze while meditating?
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Jim Smith, modified 8 Months ago at 8/18/23 6:30 AM
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RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

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Mikkel r

Jim Smith: Actually I really want to access repressed emotions. I have tried to do that in therapy for a while but with no great success. I once succeeded in doing it on retreat and it was very painful but also very encouraging for my practice. Your suggestion here seems to be that this occurrence is typically something that comes after the arising and overcoming of a hindrance?

I was not thinking in terms of overcoming a hindrance, but I see what you mean. I don't often use the word "overcome", I have a softer approach. I just meant it could be a sign.

Have you tried self-hypnosis? There are books on how to do it, basically you get deeply relaxed and ask yourself questions. You could ask "What thoughts and feelings am I suppressing"? Or "Why do I feel uncomfortable trying to concentrate"? You could do this just before falling asleep.

Once I tried to do a past life regression and I saw some things that were really upsetting so I stoped almost as soon as I started - I don't know if it was really a past life or symbolic of things going on in this life but it was meaningful and relevant and very disturbing. So if you want to get at repressed emotions self-hypnosis might help.

This is related:
https://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2020/09/when-you-cant-find-tranquility.html


As for the consequence of my meditation, most of the time I don't find that there are any significant ones. During some periods I do feel slightly more calm, but in a way that I believe could also be induced in other ways. One thing that does seem to happen is that I feel better connected to my intuition.

I like your down to earth take on the process and will take that to heart! In light of what you write, I see that I have been too concerned with the objects of the mind, rather than with the quality of the mind itself.

This brings me to another consideration, namely that I think I have been using notes in a wrong way. Perhaps based on the way I interpreted Daniel's book, I have been noting too forcefully, in a way that has become an object in its own right, covering over the objects of observation and clouding my investigation. Since starting this thread, I have tried to use "silent" notes, which feel more like simple cognitive recognitions of the object in question, and it feels like this allows my concentration to deepen more.

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Jim Smith, modified 8 Months ago at 8/18/23 7:03 AM
Created 8 Months ago at 8/18/23 7:03 AM

RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

Posts: 1687 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
Jim Smith

I was not thinking in terms of overcoming a hindrance, but I see what you mean. I don't often use the word "overcome", I have a softer approach. I just meant it could be a sign.



Instead of overcoming the hindrance to get at the emotions, I would get at the emotions to remove the hindrance.
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Pepe ·, modified 8 Months ago at 8/18/23 8:19 AM
Created 8 Months ago at 8/18/23 8:16 AM

RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

Posts: 717 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
> Do you have any sense of where you fix your inner gaze while meditating?

My practice is a vipassana-samatha combo, so sometimes I fix the gaze to a certain area (nostrils, the middle of the brain) but also sometimes I open it (to the sides at 180º degrees, like trying to reach the horizon*), other times I may drift with the main object seen/felt (visual, piti, energy), and others is the object that fix my gaze (breath, piti, energy). 

(*) the teachings say that this should happen on its own (around Jhana 3), but it won't do any harm to try it, especially if you feel stuck during the session. Some Zen traditions do it from day one. You can try this off-cushion as well
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Ni Nurta, modified 8 Months ago at 8/18/23 11:08 AM
Created 8 Months ago at 8/18/23 11:08 AM

RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

Posts: 1108 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Pepe ·
> Do you have any sense of where you fix your inner gaze while meditating?

My practice is a vipassana-samatha combo, so sometimes I fix the gaze to a certain area (nostrils, the middle of the brain) but also sometimes I open it (to the sides at 180º degrees, like trying to reach the horizon*), other times I may drift with the main object seen/felt (visual, piti, energy), and others is the object that fix my gaze (breath, piti, energy). 

(*) the teachings say that this should happen on its own (around Jhana 3), but it won't do any harm to try it, especially if you feel stuck during the session. Some Zen traditions do it from day one. You can try this off-cushion as well

It is possible to simply choose to not use this "looking out" visual consciousness.
When not used brain will be forced to learn how to operate without it - and despite there can be some issues it always provides immediate benefits too and long term perception improves a lot. Like a lot a lot.

You do not even need any special meditative practices or attainments for it - you just have to make a choice and just do it... or in this case do without it.
User 08, modified 8 Months ago at 8/18/23 1:27 PM
Created 8 Months ago at 8/18/23 1:27 PM

RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

Posts: 57 Join Date: 7/31/23 Recent Posts
Mikkel r
User 08: It sounds like the experience you had gave you something to work towards in meditation, and that knowing how to get there was a great source of motivation for remaining concentrated. I just ordered Leigh Brasington's book on jhana and will try to get to the first one, to do what you did and find some tangible experience to anchor my practice in. Thanks for the advice emoticon!
Great! You bet! I would just caution you about reading too much about the jhanas. Most of the things I've read about them way over-complicate them, give way too technical instructions, say weird, untrue things like "if you want to attain jhana, you won't," and just generally take the fun out of it.
Martin, modified 8 Months ago at 8/19/23 1:36 AM
Created 8 Months ago at 8/19/23 1:36 AM

RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

Posts: 803 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
Thanks for your reply, Mikkel. In fact, thanks for your replies to everyone because they make your question clearer. 

Let me first say that I am impressed by your retreat experience. I have been practicing for a long time, but I have much less retreat experience than you have, so might want to take my comments with a grain of salt. 
If I understand correctly, you are practicing Mahasi noting and you would like to improve your concentration so that you can get better at Mahasi noting and make progress on the Path of Insight. Some of the conversations in this thread have been talking about access concentration and jhanas but Mahasi noting is not generally considered a fast way to get into meditative states of that sort, and generally speaking, that sort of concentration is not considered necessary for the 16 insight stages of first path. Rather people often gain access to the jhanas for the fist time after attaining to first path. (There are, of course, exceptions.) On the other hand, people practicing Mahasi noting often develop momentary concentration in which fine details that would have otherwise been overlooked become apparent. This is the thing where, for example, people learn to notice at a rapid rate of, for example, ten discrete events per second. In my experience, the approach that makes this momentary concentration possible is a combination of intense curiosity and diligence. A good practice drill for this is to pick two points, such as your left hand, where it touches your right, and your right hand, where it touches your left, and keep judging which one you feel in any given moment (we cannot actually feel two separate places at exactly the same time). This type of fast noting with momentary concentration can be enormously fruitful and it's the kind of thing that you can jump right into. 
My practice around these sorts of skills was to plan out each sit in advance. For example: 15 minutes of settling into the body while following the breath; ten minutes of noticing left hand/right hand; ten minutes of noticing which sense door attention is at; and then 15 minutes of just letting things come and go while noticing them. Daniel's book has a lot of instructions for this type of work. Shinzen Young also has various skills and drills to work well.
I'm mentioning the momentary concentration stuff because I don't want to just skip over it in my rush to start talking about samadhi. The practices that you have described so far usually fit well these sorts of momentary concentration, skills and it could be that all you need to do is pick some drills and work on them in a systematic way to see the practices that you are already doing bear fruit. To be honest, even though jhana is central to my practice, I think the insights into, in particular, impermanence that I got from momentary concentration were more transformative than anything else. 
Developing samadhi, and specifically the jhanas is often (not always) seen as a departure (or detour) from mainstream insight approaches, including Mahasi. For example, my teacher basically said I was being a goof when I did it. As it turned out, it has been wonderful for me, but I want to put it out there that not everyone would recommend it in your particular circumstance. 
If you do want to actively cultivate samadhi, you will probably benefit from reading and following one or more instruction set (book). I will list some below. But first I want to mention some general operating principles that seem to hold up.
You have to be free of the hinderances to get into the jhanas so it's not the kind of thing that you can do for the first time if you are in crisis mode, if you just had an argument with someone, or if you are totally fixating on a worldly gain. Basically, it will be easier if you pick a patch of smooth sailing as your starting point. It does not, however, seem to be essential to be on retreat (I was on retreat the first time, but I have seen people do it at home). 
There are many flavors of jhanas. Generally, teachers (and some practitioners) tend to say that their flavor is the only true jhana. Whatever. I have sampled quite a few and I think it's comparable to the difference between expresso, cafe latte, and weak east-coast diner coffee. They are very different, but they are all coffee. Also, if you can learn one, it's much easier to learn the others so, in picking a style, pick the one that works first. You can always upgrade later. 
Right Concentration by Leigh Brasington worked exceptionally well for me. I notice however that it does not seem to produce results for most people who try it. I don't know why that is. That said, you mention that, "On a good day, after about 20 minutes, I start feeling warmth and tingling in my hands, or my hands and face start to feel bigger than they are." That is a classic way in for the approach that Brasington teaches. Having a recurring physical sensation, especially one that can be taken as pleasant, is a great foothold for the sutta jhanas (a.k.a, the pleasure jhanas). You mentioned that you've got the book on order. My suggestion would be to make that your first resource. While you are waiting for the book to arrive, you can practice amplifying those sensations. I would also practice relaxing at the same time. 
If Right Concentration doesn't float your boat, I have seen quite a few people who did not get anywhere with Brasington's instructions have good results with TWIM (you might search this forum for "TWIM" to read about some of the advantages and disadvantages of the system). If you want to dive in, I would suggest skipping the first 83 pages of this book (https://library.dhammasukha.org/uploads/1/2/8/6/12865490/the_path_to_nibbana__d_johnson_f18.pdf) and start at chapter 5. By the way, it's metta based, but don't be put off. People who could never do metta at all suddenly start kicking metta ass with this system. I would say it is the fastest and easiest approach for many people. If nothing else, the 6R format is brilliant. 
A very detailed instruction set for developing concentration over a long period of time (often years) is The Mind Illuminated. Many very accomplished meditators learned concentration from this book. It starts at a very easy level and goes very far. 
As User 08 mentions, With Each And Every Breath describes one way to move into light jhana states. 
Also, Rob Burbea, who is a fantastic teacher, has some instructions (https://airtable.com/shr9OS6jqmWvWTG5g/tblHlCKWIIhZzEFMk/viw3k0IfSo0Dve9ZJ) on jhana/samadhi that many have found useful. 
In short, there are a lot of ways to skin the concentration cat. Common to all of them is that they can be learned with a "drills and skills" approach. Think of it like learning how to swim the front crawl, or ski moguls, or play clarinet, from zero. You need, not only an intention but a plan. 
One last thing is the possibility of working with a teacher. For me, it was massively helpful.
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Pepe ·, modified 8 Months ago at 8/19/23 3:53 PM
Created 8 Months ago at 8/19/23 3:53 PM

RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

Posts: 717 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
The advice in Mahayana/Tibetan/Zen is to close all 5 sense doors in order to trigger kensho. In my peak concentration experiences, senses fade but don't disappear. AFAIK, senses (mostly) disappear in arupa jhanas (so there's the common ground with Mahayana) but I'm not there yet. To disengage the visual sense, that requires that the opening/closing of the iris shouldn't occur, but this is triggered even by thoughts, intentions, and like/dislike. So I don't know how I could voluntarily close that sense. Happy and willing to hear your pointers on that (given you don't talk at the neuron level you use to, cause I wouldn't understand a thing). 
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Ni Nurta, modified 8 Months ago at 8/21/23 2:52 AM
Created 8 Months ago at 8/21/23 2:52 AM

RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

Posts: 1108 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
I am pretty sure you are not supposed to induce any changes in how your all senses arise - at least in conventional sense.
You are instead supposed to just notice how from time to time all senses cease all at once.

If I look at my vision right now it skips a beat one in a while (note: my display is flickr-free). If I look with much more mindfulness* I see it actually doesn't happen most of the time only arising from the Nibbana for a single moment and passing away to it instantly. Same is true for all senses and it is this mindful perception which is at the heart of Kensho.

Here important note - do not expect any mind blowing and relief inducing experiences. It will do what it does which will be amazing and your mind will be blown but only if you do not expect your mind to be blown. Relief or liberation won't happen in the way you might expect - it won't be needed as there won't be anything needing release from suffering before such release is experienced so it won't be experienced and this is why this is why it is called release/liberation from suffering or "unbinding".

*) Mindfulness by its nature assumes single pointed concentration.
Single pointed concentration is not about as much staying on object for long periods of time but when staying on object - even if it is for a single moment! - you only have this object in your mind and literally nothing else exists there, the object is the mind.

On that note - object itself and eg. its location in space (no matter what kind of space) are separate objects. If you can perceive object and it is the only experience but there are subtle hints suggesting possible existence of something else (in example of location - in in space in which this location is presented) then this is at most better than average concentration... but it you perceive object like for that moment nothing else existed and nothing could ever exist, object being the reality itself, the mind itself, then and only then this is the right concentration.

Then if you can while doing meditative practice build up your concentration to eventually be able to perceive object as the mind then it can be said you have pretty good concentration... but if you can perceive in normal everyday waking experience all day long and all night long all the objects as the mind for the moments they are perceived then and only then you yourself have the right concentration.

Kensho as a meditative experience only happens when concentration is right.
Kensho as a meaningful realization only happens when you yourself have right concentration.
Zen only happens when you have right concentration.
When there is no right concentration then there is no Zen.
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Pepe ·, modified 8 Months ago at 8/22/23 8:34 AM
Created 8 Months ago at 8/22/23 8:34 AM

RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

Posts: 717 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
Great response Ni Nurta, thank you!
Putting aside few occasions of hard 1st Jhana, nowadays I consistently reach a state where the mind locks to breath or the observer (energy too, but that has hints of location), but for a short time. Still work in progress, right concentration as you define is further down the road.

​​​​​​​Thanks again! 
Mikkel r, modified 8 Months ago at 8/29/23 2:29 PM
Created 8 Months ago at 8/29/23 2:29 PM

RE: Advice on basic concentrstion?

Posts: 5 Join Date: 8/15/23 Recent Posts
Hi again everyone - a sincere thank you for the time and effort you have put into helping me with my practice! I have started putting your suggestions to use and will be back again later with some feedback emoticon.

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