Nietzsche: between enlightenment and selling out

shargrol, modified 6 Months ago at 9/1/23 11:32 AM
Created 6 Months ago at 9/1/23 11:32 AM

Nietzsche: between enlightenment and selling out

Posts: 2302 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Read this recently and it was thought provoking:

Dionysus vs. The Buddha
How Nietzschean spirituality offers a third way between enlightenment and selling out

https://thelivingphilosophy.substack.com/p/dionysus-vs-the-buddha

Thought others might enjoy it too!
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 6 Months ago at 9/1/23 2:43 PM
Created 6 Months ago at 9/1/23 2:43 PM

RE: Nietzsche: between enlightenment and selling out

Posts: 5093 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Reading it now but breaking away to say that everything so far points to the author's assumption that Buddhism is a form of asceticism.
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 6 Months ago at 9/1/23 2:48 PM
Created 6 Months ago at 9/1/23 2:48 PM

RE: Nietzsche: between enlightenment and selling out

Posts: 5093 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Well, that was interesting but I found it to be misinformed. Shargrol, what in the article appealed to you? Maybe I missed something.
thumbnail
terry, modified 6 Months ago at 9/1/23 3:21 PM
Created 6 Months ago at 9/1/23 3:21 PM

RE: Nietzsche: between enlightenment and selling out

Posts: 2419 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
   The author of this article has clearly studied nietzsche with some perspicacity and just as clearly has no idea what buddhism is about.

   I have two words for him: “middle way.”

=================

Nietzsche said:

For all the value that the true, the truthful, the selfless may deserve, it would still be possible that a higher and more fundamental value for life might have to be ascribed to deception, selfishness, and lust. It might even be possible that what constitutes the value of these good and revered things is precisely that they are insidiously related, tied to, and involved with these wicked, seemingly opposite things—maybe even one with them in essence. 


——————


   Zen would say, “the passions are enlightenment.”


   I would say “eros is the mother of all creation.” For me, the actual physical love of actual physical people is what gets me up in the morning and makes me work all day.


   Nietzsche was reaching for a non-dualistic view, opposing apollonian reason to dionysian feeling. He recognized that truth and falsity are equally false, equally true. The buddha similarly espoused a middle way, if one healthier and more durable than the way nietzsche took.



 
Martin, modified 6 Months ago at 9/1/23 5:01 PM
Created 6 Months ago at 9/1/23 5:01 PM

RE: Nietzsche: between enlightenment and selling out

Posts: 736 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
As the piece was written as a bit of playful ribbing, I think we might playfully note that, seven hundred years before Nietzsche, Dogen was pointing out that lotuses do not grow on the high ground of a lofty, dry plateau but rather in the muddy water of a low-lying marsh, and that the last Ox Herding picture, painted at around the same time, is Entering the Marketplace with Helping Hands.

But it's a fun thing to think about, no matter when it is brought up. I think those who enjoy looking at this sort of thing might also enjoy Rob Burbea's later teachings on the imaginal and soulmaking. 
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 6 Months ago at 9/1/23 5:43 PM
Created 6 Months ago at 9/1/23 5:43 PM

RE: Nietzsche: between enlightenment and selling out

Posts: 5093 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I thought the same while reading as terry - "middle way." Buddhism is not ascetic and doesn't advocate asceticism. 
thumbnail
terry, modified 6 Months ago at 9/1/23 6:19 PM
Created 6 Months ago at 9/1/23 6:19 PM

RE: Nietzsche: between enlightenment and selling out

Posts: 2419 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
from "the way of chuang tzu" trans merton



THE PIVOT


Tao is obscured when men understand only one of a pair
of opposites, or concentrate only on a partial aspect of being.
Then clear expression also becomes muddled by mere wordplay, 
affirming this one aspect and denying all the rest.

Hence the wrangling of Confucians and Mohists; each
denies what the other affirms, and affirms what the other
denies. What use is this struggle to set up "No" against "Yes,"
and "Yes" against "No"? Better to abandon this hopeless effort 
and seek true light!

There is nothing that cannot be seen from the standpoint
of the "Not-I." And there is nothing which cannot be seen
from the standpoint of the "I." If I begin by looking at anything 
from the viewpoint of the "Not-I," then I do not really
see it, since it is "not I" that sees it. If I begin from where I
am and see it as I see it, then it may also become possible for
me to see it as another sees it. Hence the theory of reversal
that opposites produce each other, depend on each other, and
complement each other.

However this may be, life is followed by death; death is
followed by life. The possible becomes impossible; the impossible
becomes possible. Right turns into wrong and wrong
into right - the flow of life alters circumstances and thus things
themselves are altered in their turn. But disputants continue
to affirm and to deny the same things they have always
affirmed and denied, ignoring the new aspects of reality
presented by the change in conditions.

The wise man therefore, instead of trying to prove this
or that point by logical disputation, sees all things in the
light of direct intuition. He is not imprisoned by the limit-
ations of the "I," for the viewpoint of direct intuition is that
of both "I" and "Not-1." Hence he sees that on both sides
of every argument there is both right and wrong. He also
sees that in the end they are reducible to the same thing,
once they are related to the pivot of Tao.

When the wise man grasps this pivot, he is in the center of
the circle, and there he stands while "Yes" and "No" pursue
each other around the circumference.

The pivot of Tao passes through the center where all
affirmations and denials converge. He who grasps the pivot
is at the still-point from which all movements and oppositions
can be seen in their right relationship. Hence he sees the
limitless possibilities of both "Yes" and "No." Abandoning all
thought of imposing a limit or taking sides, he rests in direct
intuition. Therefore I said: "Better to abandon disputation
and seek the true light!
thumbnail
Ni Nurta, modified 5 Months ago at 9/6/23 3:16 PM
Created 5 Months ago at 9/6/23 3:16 PM

RE: Nietzsche: between enlightenment and selling out

Posts: 1070 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
All phenomena are suffering, impermanent thus cause suffering and not self thus also cause suffering - sounds like true non-ascete would put it ;)
I like this Buddha but not more than that other Buddha did/will teach that metta is universal characteristic of all phenomena.

I know all Buddhas because while becoming Buddhist I checked all Buddhas just in case they missed some obvious colors ;)
I believe I used almost exactly the same thoughts two decades ago - as we did all.
thumbnail
terry, modified 5 Months ago at 9/7/23 2:49 PM
Created 5 Months ago at 9/7/23 2:49 PM

RE: Nietzsche: between enlightenment and selling out

Posts: 2419 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta
All phenomena are suffering, impermanent thus cause suffering and not self thus also cause suffering - sounds like true non-ascete would put it ;)
I like this Buddha but not more than that other Buddha did/will teach that metta is universal characteristic of all phenomena.

I know all Buddhas because while becoming Buddhist I checked all Buddhas just in case they missed some obvious colors ;)
I believe I used almost exactly the same thoughts two decades ago - as we did all.


​​​​​​​  New buddhas are popping up all the time but its not them we need to worry about, it's the nietzsches.

Breadcrumb