Hi everyone, I'm a self-confessed jhana junkie, but it's become apparent to me that incorporating more mindfulness in my practice--particularly off the cushion--will be necessary for me in order to advance in my practice. (You may well ask why. All I can say really is that Buddha and Jon Kabat-Zinn told me so.)

However, I find mindfulness about as fun as eating dry crackers. I understand that I'm supposed to just "observe" those feelings themselves, but since I don't enjoy observing things, I just don't do it. I feel that learning to enjoy or at least tolerate observing things will make me more
inclined to do it.

So my question is: do you actually enjoy focusing on the present moment and whatnot? If so, why? How? If not, why do you do it? How and why do you force yourself to do something you don't enjoy for long periods of time?

Aren't you in the present moment when practicing jhanas? What's the difference between paying attention during a jhanic state and paying attention during any other activity? Any focus of attention is good enough to practice mindfulness with whatever the object of your attention is at that time. In other words, I think you may be confused about mindfulness but I'm not sure. Now, vipassana/noting practice is another thing entirely, as it requires you to have an investigatory focus on a flow of experience or on a particular object. Is that what you're asking about?

As for enjoying vipassana-type practices, at first no, not really. It was a chore, and I didn't enjoy it as I wasn't good at it. But with practice, I was able to get better at vipassana and as I got better at it, the enjoyment came along. I practiced this not-very-enjoyable thing because I felt it was like investing - there were good things that might accrue to me because of this practice. I wanted those things desperately so I just kept going, every day, day in and day out. The enjoyment was particularly available when new insights would arise. Insight became the reason to practice as it goes deeper and deeper over time, leading to some really important realizations, which built upon each other over time and led to more effortless attention on the present moment.

This may or may not help you. I'm hoping it answers at least answers some of your questions.

Yes, I'm in the present moment when practicing jhana, but when I'm just going about my day, it's difficult if not impossible to retain a jhanic state.

I'm asking about whatever it is that involves observing, as described in the satipatthana sutta, e.g. "He, thinking, 'I breathe in long,' understands when he is breathing in long," which sounds like noting. In modern, Western contexts, I thought the word for this practice was "mindfulness." The word "sati", as in "the satipatthana sutta," means "mindfulness." I thought vipassana (insight) was what mindfulness gave rise to, though I understand that "vipassana" is also used to refer to types of meditation practices like noting.

I understand that "samatha-vipassana," i.e. a combination of insight and concentration, is possible and even encouraged, but as I mention above, sometimes doing both is not possible. Also, in the satipatthana sutta, only three of the four foundations of mindfulness mention concentration, so it seems that observation in general, whether with or without jhana, is important for seeing the true nature of reality or whatever. (I know that sounds dismissive, but since I already know intellectually that everything that arises passes away, I'm not terribly thrilled about the prospect of paying minute attention to, say, doing the dishes, particularly since I have paid minute attention to doing the dishes before and I didn't see much about the true nature of reality while doing it.)

Yes, that does answer my question! Thank you. Even though I've read (most of) MCTB and lots of other Buddhist material, I don't think I have a good handle at all on what an insight actually is, and I don't think I've ever had one, which perhaps at least partially explains my lack of motivation. I get the sense that an insight has something to do with the three characteristics, but what *is* it? Is it a meditative state? Is it an intellectual realization? Is it just a thought like "oh that sensation doesn't feel like me"?

In regard to insight, the effort we have to make is what I'd call "discovering mind." This requires time and dedicated practice to learn to see what it is we're examining and trying to uncover. Being unobservant, carried away by thoughts and distractions, and generally not paying attention right here and now, is what the buddhists call "ignorance." Living that way puts us at risk of suffering from the over-protective and over-reactive nature of mind. The only way out of our dark cave of ignorance is to seek the light of knowledge. Wisdom (knowledge of the mind) is the grokking of how the present moment is constructed by the mind. It's knowing that process intimately. So while paying attention in an investigative way may bore you now, there's a beautiful rainbow you can find as you make an effort to know what you are, and how this moment experience you;re having while you are not paying attention, is put together.

You must suspect this (that's an insight) or you probably wouldn't be asking about it. SoI don't for a second believe you've never had any insights. 

This is very helpful, thank you.

I believe that the only effect I've noticed about paying attention to the present moment in day-to-day life (i.e. not during meditation) is that I do ruminate less, which IIUC, is one of the theories about why mindfulness alleviates depression symptoms. Not sure if that counts as an insight though.

Apparently focusing on the present moment activates a completely different neural pathway from the typical mode of thought (which includes rumination), so I'm guessing that continually activating that neural pathway throughout the day makes quieting the mind during formal meditation sessions easier (which has been my experience). I resist this mode because I feel like I'm addicted to normal thought. :\ I guess I'm just going to have to try to let go of it like anything else.

I feel that I've reached the limits as to how meditation helps me grok how my mind constructs the present moment. Since I haven't attained stream entry, there must be more to it, but I just have no clue what it is. When I meditate, my mind just becomes very quiet and there's not much to notice. I get that when a thought comes, I can choose to engage with it or not. What more is there to see? The answer to this is usually "keep meditating," but a more specific answer would be helpful, if possible. I don't really see the three characteristics because I feel that that would be introducing thought back into the mix, e.g. "I notice that that breath used to be happening but now it's not. Hey, that's impermanence" as opposed to simply just a raw, visceral experience of the breath.

So do you think that thoughts, qua thoughts, are bad? Whatever your answer, I promise to give you specifics/details about the questions you just asked based on my personal experience. 

It all sounds amazing, "wisdom" and "knowledge of the mind" and all but if all these insights are true and not empty experiences indicating having knowledge then where are the gory descriptions of how mind actually works?

As Mahayanians like to say "all dharmas are empty" same is for all "insights", all are empty of actuall essence

Sati/smriti means short term working memory.

​​​​​​​To remember the breath as it happens.

Meditation is not about gains but about losses

I'm also a fellow concentration meditator.

You might enjoy emptiness insight practices a la Rob Burbea. You can check out some of his guided meditations from his emptiness retreats. I've found those to be way more fun than just dryly noting, which I find about as interesting as watching (or noting watching) paint dry. Reducing clinging, noticing the reduction in clinging and the feeling of release by noticing the three characteristics inherent in any phenomena apparent to consciousness is really quite enjoyable. These practices on their own can lead to jhana so you probably need to have your intentionality for why you are practicing an emptiness practice to be clear.

Within the tradition I primarly practice concentration in (Pa-Auk), most teachers don't really consider noting or the vipassana that is done "real vipassana" since it happens at the conceptual level. I have no dog in this fight, but it's an interesting and probably controversial perspective, especially in the dry insight communities.  

We're gonna get all crossed up in language differences and various practice modes and preferences. User08, if you want to continue what I was saying just let me know... or you can jump in with some of the other suggestions.

Up to you!

Cool, thanks, I really know nothing about Rob Burbea but I've seen him mentioned here frequently. I guess it's time to check out his stuff.

It's not that I think thoughts are bad per se, as in evil or something, but I was under the impression that we were basically supposed to ignore them during meditation. If we were able to think our way to enlightenment, I would think the process would be quite different, e.g. simply thinking "hey, you know how everything that starts stops at some point?" "Yes, I understand that concept." "Cool, you're enlightened now."

Gosh, really? I've never heard that before 

There's a difference between random rumination (normal thinking) and investigation during meditation. And yes, some kinds of meditation require you to observe what's happening and pass judgment - notice - what's happening in your stream of consciousness. 

Have you explored vipassana practice at all? By this, I don't necessarily mean the Mahasi noting practice but any other kind of investigation of your ongoing experience while meditating. Have you tried it consistently? Have you explored how your mind takes sensory input of various kinds and turns those into specific objects and meaning? 

It depends on what you mean by consistently. The most meditation I've done was about ten years ago, where I was doing on average about an hour a day for a few months. More recently, I meditated at about that frequency for about a month. I guess you could say "well you're just not meditating that much," but my question remains: what is there to see?

The type of meditation I do is basically breath and mantra meditation. I think investigation is involved because I pay attention to the breath and keep tabs on whether my mind is getting lost in a thought, but that's it.

There's what I described, and much more if you're willing to read up on vipassana. I'm not getting the sense I'm making you curious enough to explore a more investigation-focused mediation practice. That's okay, though. Something in between my powers of persuasion and your lack of motivation is keeping us apart.

It seems I've inadvertently offended you. If so, I apologize. I think there's been some sort of misunderstanding. Thanks anyway.

I'm not offended at all. I'm just not getting a sense from you that you're interested in what I'm saying and felt it would be worthwhile to be honest about that.