Insight about the experience of insights

Insight about the experience of insights michael gross 4/23/24 11:47 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Martin 4/23/24 10:28 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Stirling Campbell 4/23/24 11:02 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Chris M 4/23/24 3:30 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Olivier S 4/23/24 3:51 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Chris M 4/23/24 3:53 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Olivier S 4/23/24 4:07 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate 4/23/24 4:19 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Chris M 4/23/24 4:21 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate 4/23/24 4:34 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Chris M 4/23/24 4:50 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Martin 4/23/24 5:49 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Chris M 4/23/24 6:34 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Stirling Campbell 4/23/24 7:41 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Chris M 4/24/24 6:54 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights brian patrick 4/24/24 9:43 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Stirling Campbell 4/24/24 12:16 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Pawel K 4/24/24 3:21 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate 4/23/24 8:34 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights terry 4/29/24 2:39 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Stirling Campbell 4/23/24 7:26 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Chris M 4/24/24 6:49 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights terry 4/29/24 3:17 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Pawel K 4/24/24 3:41 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Dream Walker 4/24/24 11:55 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights michael gross 4/24/24 3:57 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Dream Walker 4/27/24 6:00 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Chris M 4/25/24 7:59 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Jeff 4/25/24 9:01 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights terry 4/29/24 3:46 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Stirling Campbell 4/25/24 11:01 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Chris M 4/25/24 2:27 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights terry 4/29/24 3:41 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Pawel K 4/25/24 2:12 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Chris M 4/25/24 1:18 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Chris M 4/25/24 1:28 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Pawel K 4/26/24 10:00 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights terry 4/29/24 3:30 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Todo 4/25/24 9:46 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Chris M 4/26/24 4:46 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Pawel K 4/28/24 4:41 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights brian patrick 4/28/24 1:03 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights terry 4/29/24 11:13 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights brian patrick 4/29/24 11:36 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights terry 4/29/24 5:10 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights terry 5/11/24 12:10 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights terry 5/11/24 12:21 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Pawel K 4/29/24 1:02 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights brian patrick 4/29/24 5:57 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights Pawel K 5/1/24 5:55 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights brian patrick 5/1/24 9:21 PM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights terry 4/29/24 3:51 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights terry 4/29/24 4:04 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights terry 4/29/24 4:23 AM
RE: Insight about the experience of insights brian patrick 4/29/24 5:39 PM
michael gross, modified 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 11:47 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/22/24 11:51 PM

Insight about the experience of insights

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I've had a regular body scanning practice for the past 6 months and have begun adding elements of noting to the last 10-15 minutes of each sit. This led to the clearest insight I've obtained yet from my practice. The insight then yieldied another insight about the nature of insight itself. 

I usually get these really annoying itches all over my face whenever I start noting practice. When they arise I note the itch, then note the aversion to the itch. I then look deeper to see if I can find some sensation relating to the one who is feeling aversion. I've never been able to find such a sensation and always just assumed I wasn't sensitive or attuned enough in my investigation. Today, however, I had the sudden and distinct realization that the feeling of aversion was being experienced by the sensation of the itch itself! 

This moment of insight made it immediately clear that insights by their nature are very obvious and mundane once realized. There are no fireworks. Instead it's more like finding the perfect fit for a puzzle-piece. It snaps into place, and then suddenly you can see the picture just a little more clearly.
Martin, modified 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 10:28 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 10:28 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Good insights!
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Stirling Campbell, modified 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 11:02 AM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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michael gross
I had the sudden and distinct realization that the feeling of aversion was being experienced by the sensation of the itch itself!


Yes indeed, that is some good stuff. The itch isn't yours, OR the aversion, it just happens where it happens and has no intrinsic existence.
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 3:30 PM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Not to be a curmudgeon, but I think that sensation has an intrinsic existence. However, it's not "you" or "yours." It's intrinsic to the individual sensation or observation. You know - the Bahiya Sutta stuff.
Olivier S, modified 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 3:51 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 3:51 PM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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heresy
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 3:53 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 3:53 PM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Just so it's not hearsay.
Olivier S, modified 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 4:07 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 4:07 PM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Intrinsic existence!!!!!!!!
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 4:19 PM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Yes, they live in a limbo where they both really do exist and really dont exist. If something exists, based off of casual factors, but the causal factors are fleeting, then the thing itself must also be changing, and doesn't really have a substantial existence. Plus for a thing to exist, there must be things! But are there things?
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 4:21 PM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Impermanence is not non-existence.
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 4:34 PM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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That is true, but I would say to say for something to "really" exist, requires a degree of permanence. First off, there has to be a thing. What exactly is a thing? Is it a collection of stuff in the material world (that we dont have access to...)? Is it a thought we apply to sensory data? Is it perception, segmenting a stream of experience into chunks?

So we have this ever changing experience, sure. But it's never the same. So if a thing comes and goes, where does it go to? Did it just stop existing? And if it can stop existing, or disappear entirely, how can you really say it every existed. 

Hence the Madhyamaka stance that things dont really exist or not exist. You might really like the book "Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka: A Philosophical Introduction" as an exploration of the philosophical takes that come out of that school of thought. It focuses a lot on this idea of substance, and what the implications of there being substance or no substance are.
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 4:50 PM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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I've read Nagarjuna. It's fascinating stuff that's a nice combination of meditative insight, philosophy and logic. But... objects do exist, as impermanent, not me, and  unsatisfactory as they may be. I guess I have the unfortunate luck to live in the world that includes pain when I accidentally hit myself with a hammer.

emoticon
Martin, modified 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 5:49 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 5:49 PM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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I don't see the need to make absolute claims. There are whole sections of libraries arguing both sides. But whether or not objects actually exist in all systems of knowledge, when it comes to practical and moral decisions, the best outcomes come from acting as if they do exist. Easy peasy. 
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 6:34 PM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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I don't think we really have a choice do we? I'm being deliberately argumentative about this, of course. But I find it kinda funny that it's so difficult for folks on dharma forums to admit that they know from a certain common sense point of view that objects exist. We all act that way, and we know the dire consequences of not acting that way. To say objects exist despite knowing their impermanence, not-self, and unsatisfactory nature doesn't make anyone less consistent or correct in their dharma..

​​​​​​​We're voting "yes" on this proposition with our actions, day in and day out.

BTW, I'd argue this applies to the physics, too. We don't have access to the primordial goo that might be the fundamental nature of matter, but from a practical, everyday perspective we still see the same things the same way we always have.

We're stuck here in this weird place where our intellect can discover non-duality and quantum mechanics, but neither of those alters how we navigate the day. I think it's cool, beautiful, and immeasurably confounding.

​​​​​​​Insights about the experience of insights.
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Stirling Campbell, modified 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 7:26 PM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Whoa... what happened here? Is all of this because I used the words  "no intrinsic existence"? Did I touch something raw, Chris? If so I apologize. Are madhymaka or Mahamudra or Vajrayana not welcome topics? I understand a difference of opinion, or if it isn't your experience, but you seem openly dismissive. 

Honestly, one of the first things I wrote down that was obvious on awakening was that "separateness was an illusion". Hell, I can see that it is true in this moment, which doesn't mean if I hit my hand with a hammer it doesn't hurt. This is how the quality of "centerlessness" manifests in my experience. The "emptiness" is always the greater, deeper truth of reality, in my experience. I am not deluded (or perhaps share a delusion with a number of other people), this is the experience of a number of other Zen and Vajrayana teachers I have met, including my own teacher.

What's wrong with some kindness and tolerance? 
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Stirling Campbell, modified 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 7:41 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 7:36 PM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Chris M
I don't think we really have a choice do we? I'm being deliberately argumentative about this, of course. But I find it kinda funny that it's so difficult for folks on dharma forums to admit that they know from a certain common sense point of view that objects exist. We all act that way, and we know the dire consequences of not acting that way. To say objects exist despite knowing their impermanence, not-self, and unsatisfactory nature doesn't make anyone less consistent or correct in their dharma.

​​​​​​​All you have to do is watch the world unfold to see that objects interact with objects. I don't think anyone is denying something so undeniable. Objects DO exist in their way - they have PROVISIONAL existence. However, their deeper reality is that they are ultimately empty, having no intrinsic (self) existence. Both qualities can be seen at the same time. Is that unsatisfactory?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 1 Month ago at 4/23/24 8:34 PM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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when it comes to practical and moral decisions, the best outcomes come from acting as if they do exist. Easy peasy. 

Im not sure about this, I hold it still is good to remain thoughtful about it. Like if you start seeing little demons when you meditate, picking from [emptiness, hallucination, a real magickal world] as a framework is a meaningful implication. Similarly, if you think say gender really exists or not that probably affects how you see the trans debate.
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 3:41 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 3:41 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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I get the impression people don't understand how nervous system and brain works and therefore it makes to them sense that itch, aversion, sensations, etc. which can happen in one brain activity pulse is all the same thing.

Which it kinda is, from some point of view, and its nice someone noticed it ;)

At the same time technically it isn't. Its just tangled web of interconnected nodes (which have their own consciousness) which can be from within experience thought of as arising together and therefore making one bigger consciousness.

If you would setup consciousnesses to arise but not disturb other consciousness but then be able to hold memory of them and agree on timings you could then be able to notice how itch and aversion and what you consider your experience of sensation as a whole are not quite the same things.

In the end it all boils down to technicalities. Best insight you might have is not confirming what someone said as in "I read about insight I might have if I observe mind for specific aspects and then had experience which seems like it is confirming it" but figuring out how you can confirm or refute it and through implementing your ideas to get better overall understanding of the topic and have it grounded - not only self-referencing - in something external model which you can use to describe things without referencing back to themselves. Cause with self-referencing insights at most you can get THIS - some "complete understanding of mind" which maybe the way it works can generate pleasure and even solve some dukkha issue but otherwise it is empty of actual understanding of how mind works and what are its real issues as much as how Buddha ever imagined it could ever be when giving speeches about the so called emptiness.

@Chris
We're stuck here in this weird place where our intellect can discover non-duality and quantum mechanics, but neither of those alters how we navigate the day. I think it's cool, beautiful, and immeasurably confounding.

Aren't you constantly mindful of 'non-duality' when e.g. making a sandwich or hammering a nail?
I'd say it makes only perfect sense to do so even if to make sure we aren't causing unnecessary suffering to exist in the universe - so in turn ourselves. Atoms maybe enlightened more than we humans are and you can hammer iron on iron all your want and it won't generate qbit of dukkha but it still makes sense to check... ;)
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 6:49 AM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Did I touch something raw, Chris? If so I apologize. Are madhymaka or Mahamudra or Vajrayana not welcome topics? I understand a difference of opinion, or if it isn't your experience, but you seem openly dismissive. 


Sterling, I was just making conversation and, hopefully, a point about how we think about insights. Gosh, I didn't even have madhymaka or Mahamudra or Vajrayana in mind while posting those comments.
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 6:54 AM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Objects DO exist in their way - they have PROVISIONAL existence. However, their deeper reality is that they are ultimately empty, having no intrinsic (self) existence. Both qualities can be seen at the same time. Is that unsatisfactory?

​​​​​​​I'm still in a questioning mood this morning, Sterling, so... what is deeper reality? I think that's just as empty as common reality emoticon
brian patrick, modified 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 9:43 AM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Chris M
Objects DO exist in their way - they have PROVISIONAL existence. However, their deeper reality is that they are ultimately empty, having no intrinsic (self) existence. Both qualities can be seen at the same time. Is that unsatisfactory?

​​​​​​​I'm still in a questioning mood this morning, Sterling, so... what is deeper reality? I think that's just as empty as common reality emoticon

Ha ha. That's the trouble with explaining things or defining things other than verbally one on one. What can you say about something that is not conceptual in any way? 

like Jim Newman says "people tell me I should write a book, but 'this is IT, and it's nothing else' would be a pretty short book."
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Dream Walker, modified 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 11:55 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 11:55 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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michael gross
Hi!
I've had a regular body scanning practice for the past 6 months
Did you do Goenka? What is body scanning to you if not?
and have begun adding elements of noting to the last 10-15 minutes of each sit.
Sooo... while body scanning, you didn't label it? What is 'noting" mean to you?
This led to the clearest insight I've obtained yet from my practice.
What does insight mean? are you not using the Progress of Insight stages?
The insight then yieldied another insight about the nature of insight itself. 
the as yet undefined 'insight' yieldied another undefined something about  insight....ok...don't have a clue what your saying 

I usually get these really annoying itches all over my face whenever I start noting practice. When they arise I note the itch, then note the aversion to the itch.
What pray tell are you doing that suggests that you are doing 'noting'? I am currently noting you noting that I note of noting notes.
I then look deeper to see if I can find some sensation relating to the one who is feeling aversion.
CLINGING and AVERSION feeling tones.....woot! we are kinda getting somewhere. notice NEUTRAL also.
I've never been able to find such a sensation and always just assumed I wasn't sensitive or attuned enough in my investigation.
1. Notice sensation
2. Label sensation
3. Notice feeling tone or
4. Notice feeling of ME, Perm, Satisfying......solidity
5. Mix it up
Today, however, I had the sudden and distinct realization that the feeling of aversion was being experienced by the sensation of the itch itself! 
NICE....did that last? Is that yours? does it satisfy?Are you clinging to it? or is it neutral? doesn't sound to aversive.

This moment of insight made it immediately clear that insights by their nature are very obvious and mundane once realized. There are no fireworks. Instead it's more like finding the perfect fit for a puzzle-piece. It snaps into place, and then suddenly you can see the picture just a little more clearly.
Hellz ya.....clearly that way til it isn't.
I agree though, clarity and understanding fuels my joy of exploration. It makes all the little things add up to the big stuff.
Keep on doing it.
Good Luck,
​​​​​​​~D
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Stirling Campbell, modified 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 12:16 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 12:04 PM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Chris M
Objects DO exist in their way - they have PROVISIONAL existence. However, their deeper reality is that they are ultimately empty, having no intrinsic (self) existence. Both qualities can be seen at the same time. Is that unsatisfactory?

​​​​​​​I'm still in a questioning mood this morning, Sterling, so... what is deeper reality? I think that's just as empty as common reality emoticon


Good morning, Chris. I think you know what I am saying, but you can choose the terminology if you want... I'm OK with that. Yes, reality IS empty. The "Two Truths" are ultimately empty... and yet, here we are talking about them. If we talk about lemons (or hammers) it is the same. Since I don't have any here to hand, they are purely conceptual in this moment.

We see a world of impermanent things moment to moment, but MY experience is that there is something that can be apprehended that isn't impermanent, dependently originated and has been there all along "underneath" (for lack of a better word) that impermanence. I can see both in this moment, on constantly changing, the other still, silent, and luminous. So, yes, conceptually, two truths.

I'm still in a questioning mood too, Chris. Still curious to hear your thoughts.

Edited to add: I mentioned Madhyamaka, Vajrayana, and Mahamudra because your comments on Nagarjuna's contributions to Buddhism appeared dismissive.  The Mulamadhyamakakarika, written by Nagarjuna, is a critically important cornerstone of the three. 
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 3:21 PM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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We see a world of impermanent things moment to moment, but MY experience is that there is something that can be apprehended that isn't impermanent, dependently originated and has been there all along "underneath" (for lack of a better word) that impermanence. I can see both in this moment, on constantly changing, the other still, silent, and luminous. So, yes, conceptually, two truths.

Solid Self? emoticon
michael gross, modified 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 3:57 PM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Dream Walker
That's for your good questions!
Did you do Goenka? What is body scanning to you if not?
Yes, Goenka.
Sooo... while body scanning, you didn't label it? What is 'noting" mean to you?

By noting I mean making an internally verbal label for any sensestion I become aware of. I generally don't note and body scan at the same time. Of course I'm still aware of many sensations while scanning, but I don't make that internally verbal note. 

 I've been playing around with it. Sometimes I'll label in very general categories such as Shinzen Young's "touch, feel, image, talk", while other times I'll try to be super specific, or focus only on one category of sensation at the exclusion of all else.
What does insight mean? are you not using the Progress of Insight stages?

By insight I mean a new or deeper understanding of the nature of immediate subjective experience. I'm familiar with progress of insight stages (via MCTemoticon but generally don't try to map my experiences with that model as I feel it's more productive for me at this time to just focus on immediate experience, and stages will develop organically as they may. 
 
the as yet undefined 'insight' yieldied another undefined something about insight....ok...don't have a clue what your saying

This was a somewhat sloppy way of saying that by noting sensations related to my experience of understanding something new about my subjective experience (i.e. insight) I then understood something new about the experience of insight. Maybe it could be seen as a "meta-insight".

New meditators hear stories about crazy outlandish experiences others have had while meditating, and it's easy to lose sight of the fact that insight is as applicable to simple mundane things (like an itch) as it is to some world-shatterintg A&P experience.
What pray tell are you doing that suggests that you are doing 'noting'? I am currently noting you noting that I note of noting notes.

With regards to the itch, I was essentially labeling as many sensations related to the itch as I can find, to include feeling such as adversion. I was also noticing where each of these sensations appeared within my sensory field. The insight above came when I noticed the physical sensations of the itch and the related aversion were all sharing the same space within that field. 
CLINGING and AVERSION feeling tones.....woot! we are kinda getting somewhere. notice NEUTRAL also.

Thats good advice. I've been leaving neutral out of it.
1. Notice sensation 2. Label sensation 3. Notice feeling tone or 4. Notice feeling of ME, Perm, Satisfying......solidity 5. Mix it up

ah, mix it up! so go for say "tone" first, then trace that back to a sensation?
NICE....did that last? Is that yours? does it satisfy?Are you clinging to it? or is it neutral? doesn't sound to aversive.
good questions, lol. I pt didn't last and I suspect it isn't mine given the nature of the insight. Although it does feel as if it is. Generally speaking I'd say neutral. It definitely wasn't aversive. 
Hellz ya.....clearly that way til it isn't. I agree though, clarity and understanding fuels my joy of exploration. It makes all the little things add up to the big stuff. Keep on doing it. Good Luck, ~D

Thanks, I'll keep trying to notice this insight and maybe will come to see some other aspect of it.
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 7:59 AM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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The OP for this topic said:

This moment of insight made it immediately clear that insights by their nature are very obvious and mundane once realized. There are no fireworks. Instead it's more like finding the perfect fit for a puzzle-piece. It snaps into place, and then suddenly you can see the picture just a little more clearly.

So here's what I've been thinking about --

When we're present in the now, whatever it is, we have an amazing, unique, direct, and immediate experience. This experience can't be reduced to concepts or descriptions. The intimacy of this now is undeniable. It's the only way we truly know we're conscious, sentient beings. Something inherent in this can't be explained away by even the most accomplished philosopher or the most learned in the dharma. This, right now, is undeniable. It can't be shared. It can't be explained. It's a miracle, and yet it's mundane, all at once. I fear this immediate, miraculous/mundane being obscured by the trivial, the conceptual, the vague, the philosophical. Do you want to grok the dharma? Stay right here.

We, students of the dharma, seem to follow a curious and torturous path that goes from ignorance of the nature of the mind through all manner of meditative experiences. Insights galore! And then one day, from all of that complexity, knowledge, and struggle, some little switch gets flipped, and here we are, right back where we started! Home - bright, shining, mysterious, emergent, miraculous, mundane.
Jeff, modified 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 9:01 AM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Nailed it.
Todo, modified 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 9:46 AM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Chris,
Do you mind if I comment your post a little?

"When we're present in the now, whatever it is, we have an amazing, unique, direct, and immediate experience."

When a person with "normal" vision open their eyes, a whole world is immediately "there". With its shapes, colors, brightness, shadows, etc. Nothing to do!  It's effortless.

"This experience can't be reduced to concepts or descriptions."

Well, one can still try to describe it. Only  it might take a lot of words & wouldn't cover all the aspects of the experience. This doesn't mean though that all descriptions & concepts are useless.
This is why they say that an image is worth a thousand words. Although I think it's worth more.
Moreover one has to remember that maps, when accurate, can be helpful despite the now common wisdom that the map is not the territory.

"Something inherent in this can't be explained away by even the most accomplished philosopher or the most learned in the dharma."

I don't think that the learned in the Dharma want to explain away anything. They are just doing what they can with the tools they have at their disposal: language, logic, poetics, etc.. they know that these tools are inadequate but there are no other.
One have to accept this & go along with it or otherwise go into a cave & refuse to talk to anybody. This also has been done by some & may even be a good way. I don't think it's a good solution.

In fact I am convinced that anyone who has attained some degree of understanding, however they have reached it, have a duty to share. Not everyone words will resonate with everybody but if their words resonate with just one person, that would be good enough.
Anyway, for me it's good enough.

"Do you want to grok the dharma? Stay right here."

Okay,
My rhetorical question is : how are anyone going to help anyone else without using language ie "the conceptual". What everybody is doing here anyway? Why Daniel Ingram & Vince Horn started this place to begin with?
Certainly not to trivialize the fharma.

"We, students of the dharma, seem to follow a curious and torturous path that goes from ignorance of the nature of the mind through all manner of meditative experiences."

Yes,
That path also included a lot of reading, thinking, listening & watching "content". All highly conceptual endeavors.

"And then one day, from all of that complexity, knowledge, and struggle, some little switch gets flipped, and here we are, right back where we started! Home - bright, shining, mysterious, emergent, miraculous, mundane."

Yes,
But there might be " method to the madness! "
Most schools of mysticism emphasize the fact that that switch flips in its own! Or by the grace of God!  Or the Guru! Or whatever.

However, there are a few traditions or maybe all traditions, that have another path. A hidden path. Secret teachings. Teachings the elders will give to some of their students. Students that seem to respond better to those teachings. They will not give them to everybody as they are often not suited to them.
Those teachings were also written about but usually using language that has to be decoded to be understood.

Today, with the internet revolution, nothing can remain secret & the most esoteric teachings find expression somewhere & can be found by whomever has the will to search.

Those were Just my two cents.

NOTA: I do consider myself to be a student of the Internet. "Internet" is my guru, my teacher & I swear by "His" greatness. These days AI chatbots like gemini, chatGPT & hybrid search/AI like perplexity are also helping a lot. Not in directly answering questions but in finding "resources" more easily. 
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Stirling Campbell, modified 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 11:01 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 11:01 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 632 Join Date: 3/13/16 Recent Posts
Do you want to grok the dharma? Stay right here.

Yes! Except, most people on this board are right here instead, reducing their understanding to right/wrong, concepts, and other dualities, including you, I, and a number of other posters that suggest that they ALSO get this. I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point, and spend months at a time forgetting this place exists, and then there is some afternoon a particular itch to see what all of the familiar people (that are left) are up to and here I am again.

If there is even a trace
of this and that, of right and wrong,
the Mind-essence will be lost in confusion.
- From Verses on the Faith Mind
by Chien-chih Seng-ts'an 

This idea that there is a "right" answer to some of these dharma questions is a place we have all gotten lost. Are there ultimately "two truths"? Absolutely not. But like many of these constructs, it is a (IMHO) clear, tested, and convenient way to point to what is happening here. It is as valid as any other story you want to tell about it, but closer than many to how it looks TO ME. On the TWIM thread there will no-doubt be arguments about what is "pure" dharma, or what is valid or invalid. A shame really.

If there is a problem, IMHO, isn't in trying to discuss dharma, or in refining our ways of failing to properly capture it, but in being KIND to those who are trying to share their experience, or try to understand. Sometimes that seems to fall by the wayside here, and the result is that people aren't helped, and eventually go elsewhere or give up entirely. Above even the wish to educate I think kindness and humility, are really what should come first. This is THE primary quality I have noticed to be present in the most accomplished and realized teachers I have encountered, in my experience anyway, and at this point, my primary aspiration. 

Anyway, thank you for your post Chris, it is better than the other ones you might have composed and discarded. emoticon I agree with your exhortation wholeheartedly! Respectful bows, to you, sir. 
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 2:12 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 11:02 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Chris,

Something inherent in this can't be explained away by even the most accomplished philosopher or the most learned in the dharma. This, right now, is undeniable. It can't be shared. It can't be explained.

The way I see it you are just overdriving your neurons in short bursts causing them to kinda block for some time and get numb for a while and this causes activity to go elsewhere and once it goes elsewhere it doesn't go again to where it was before.
And its not even universal. Not everyone does it this way. In fact, in that you are kinda unique and why almost no one else stresses this so much, if ever.
Actually rarely people do have similar implementations even if they claim the same path.

I can literally experience it and why I completely disagree with the notion we cannot share experiences. I do from time to time do this trick called meditation to check what people got just because it fun and can be a source of good vibes and inspiration. Can also be a source of bad vibes. Yours are okay and your implementation quite interesting. Personally I usually use very different implementations - in fact also based on 8th jhana.

Cause you see you didn't believe me I can be in 8th jhana all day long but so far from every single hints you put out it would seem you too use it all the time. Just in your implementation it seems its very hard to shift to other jhanas because you use it in way its incompatible with other jhanas. Formless jhanas have faculty - not form. Faculty of 8th jhana is control of something called activation potentials/targets.

It's a miracle, and yet it's mundane, all at once. I fear this immediate, miraculous/mundane being obscured by the trivial, the conceptual, the vague, the philosophical.

You say its 'mundane'. Yes, the 'normal' mind to a degree has this too just like it has jhanas and even has aspects of my implementation (I described it numerous times - the one with having consciousness arise and then go in to kinda blocking state to be able to have consciousness but no further activity) and many other with different amounts of them. Normal mind is a jack of all trades, master of none and when sheet hits the fan it panics and why it doesn't work.

There is nothing miraculous. Its just something your brain figured out through practices it did.
The question is: did *you* figure it out?

Cause you see to fugue things out you need to put an actual effort and focus on figuring things out.
I put effort because it made sense I will get more bung for my buck if I focus on "how?" and "what?" and honing skills and not attainments. Skills and knowledge are my attainments. The specific mind states / implementations if they are something new or improved in some way over what was taken as reference are also attainments but I wouldn't for example say all the stuff I copied from people were attainments. Maybe at first, kinda even felt like that. By the 3rd path I would experience these things like in kaleidoscope. There is really dozen pure abodes to experience, each doing its "don't cause neurons to get tired" in slightly different way and while I didn't attempt to experience all of them and put very little effort trying to explain them I can clearly see its all explainable including how these states arose.

At times I have this thought that maybe I lost some magic, some mystery by being so analytical and maybe it would be better to be more ascetic. Then I notice how all that nonsense comes from my neurons as they are getting tired and look for causes and of course them being tired doesn't help finding good causes - just maybe not being able to use solutions they used in the past - here going in to some kind of "daze". So to solve this issue just like I described in thread I made today I just use different neurons and they don't experience any nostalgia and missing everything being vague and mysterious. Cause why would those neurons who wanted to be active instead of those other neurons have anything against knowing stuff? Even better for them than kinda getting activation from the daze but not quite because that current mind didn't really get releases from being used, etc.

Effects have causes and both causes and effects can be explained. How well depends on right effort put in to it.
Saying something cannot be explained is just saying you lack skills and knowledge and/or will to explain them. It says nothing about explainability of anything but says a lot about you. As is everything we say says a lot about ourselves and why having just text but enough of it can lead to mind being able to approximate someone else mind through meditation.

Anyways, hope you have miraculous day,
Ni

ps. Of course I might be totally wrong about your experience.
After I meditated on you for half an hour and had fruition the same evening I did however watch your posts closely for hints and I remember from what you said and comparing it with the state I kinda learned from you most of the basics I got right. There is kind of experience I'd call solarization and a kind of luminosity-like sensations but solarized and appearing as kinda noise rather than being static. Like most working solutions this way of driving neurons also make sense of self not an issue and this specific gives it kind of ephemeral quality.

It fits definition of Arhat (as in experiences cessation all the time) even though I would not call your implementation anywhere close to Daniel's. There are many ways to do it. Overdrive as I called it was something I tried in the past but couldn't make it work correctly at that time. It does require fine control to make it do what its supposed to while not causing dukkha and without any mastery over 8th jhana I could not pull it off.
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 1:18 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 1:18 PM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 5269 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta, you replied inside a quote from my last post. This makes it hard to understand who is saying what. May I fix that for you?
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 2:27 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 1:24 PM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 5269 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Sterling --

Anyway, thank you for your post Chris, it is better than the other ones you might have composed and discarded.

Thanks.

FYI, I never compose and discard posts. I just type in what I'm thinking and feeling at the time I'm typing. Sometimes DhO eats what I've typed before I can hit the "Publish" button but then I just start over, even though that second post will differ in some ways from the original.
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 1:28 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 1:28 PM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 5269 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Ni --
​​​​​​​
And its not even universal. Not everyone does it this way. In fact, in that you are kinda unique and why almost no one else stresses this so much, if ever.

How Much Zen or Dzogchen have you practiced or studied? 
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 4/26/24 10:00 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/26/24 10:00 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Chris M
How Much Zen or Dzogchen have you practiced or studied? 

That depends on how you define 'studied' and 'practiced'
In general I am as far from being a scholar of these traditions as you could imagine.
I do however consider myself to get relevant 'transmissions' from these traditions. Actually not sure Dzogchen specifically but from Tibetans I got their version of idea of "projectors" and "range expansion" and "error correction"*.

To not write too much nonsense I'll only say few words on range expansion. See if you see normal sRGB image on especially LCD screen that isn't very realistic it will have this kinda dull look to it. It can then be expanded to something that looks like HDR**. In the same way Tibetan transmissions were 'compressed' and need to be 'expanded'. Even their whole art uses style that to really appreciate needs to be expanded and its purposefully made how it is made because in their algorithm of compression the palette they use made most sense - visually. The colors used are also learning tool. The monk is supposed to one day wake up and see the colors as intended and then he knows (and everyone else who already attained it) know he attained it to even if he doesn't say a single word about it.

So did I study that stuff... nah, I didn't. I practice improving my visual perception and then make silly assumptions that some other people must use similar stuff and when I see something that looks like a duck... ;)

*) That "error correction" I mentioned are "Vajra". Also how one experiences zero movement of mind. I suppose Zen must have this too but I have not experienced Zen version yet - at least not fully. Something to meditate about I guess. Tibetan version yes and it is different than how I normally do it. I mean the same idea but differently implemented.
**) If by HDR one understands whole body experience where you feel sunshine on your body and smell the grass and flowers then it can also be done. To get to this point one needs to really get in to nitty gritty details of how the so called "non-dual" compression algorithms work. Lets say it like that: we all get the same amount of it. Its what we do with it that makes all the difference ;)
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 4/26/24 4:46 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/26/24 4:46 PM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 5269 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Those were Just my two cents. ​​​​​​​

Thanks for chiming in. I think you're interpreting some of what I posted too literally, but I know where you're coming from. You certainly have a unique perspective. Many roads!
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Dream Walker, modified 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 6:00 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 6:00 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 1746 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
michael gross
Dream Walker
That's for your good questions!

Thanks for answering! I feel like I understand what you are saying much better.

With regards to the itch, I was essentially labeling as many sensations related to the itch as I can find, to include feeling such as adversion. I was also noticing where each of these sensations appeared within my sensory field. The insight above came when I noticed the physical sensations of the itch and the related aversion were all sharing the same space within that field. 
Nice, also ask yourself what the same space within that field means, explore that as it's own thing, What is IN or OUT of that space/field? Why? how?

Mix it up....It's your meditation. Keep being curious... Do everything and anything...

Thanks, I'll keep trying to notice this insight and maybe will come to see some other aspect of it.
Notice that thoughts about thoughts are insightful or just label them as thought.
Good Luck!
~D
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 4/28/24 4:41 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/28/24 4:40 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
When a person with "normal" vision open their eyes, a whole world is immediately "there". With its shapes, colors, brightness, shadows, etc. Nothing to do!  It's effortless.

If you were to open eyes before you were ready this wouldn't be there.
The question I have, if you open eyes only when it is all ready to be seen can you really say you opened eyes?

Well, one can still try to describe it. Only  it might take a lot of words & wouldn't cover all the aspects of the experience. This doesn't mean though that all descriptions & concepts are useless.

It is only useless when everyone reading already have opinion before hearing/reading you. Mighty as they may be even most thickheaded of us experience meditation.

Not everyone words will resonate with everybody but if their words resonate with just one person, that would be good enough.
Anyway, for me it's good enough.

One sentient being is good enough.

Certainly not to trivialize the fharma.

Even what seems like trivializing is just a way to express something with tools available.

That path also included a lot of reading, thinking, listening & watching "content". All highly conceptual endeavors.

It gets much more conceptual when mind which describes and process reality with symbols have symbol factory and its own use of symbols doesn't prevent symbols from being created/experiences and then used on top of existing symbols.
Both understanding and not understanding can prevent really understanding.

Most schools of mysticism emphasize the fact that that switch flips in its own! Or by the grace of God!  Or the Guru! Or whatever.

There ain't no inherent switch to flip.
Only when we switch something and can switch it there can be a switch.

However, there are a few traditions or maybe all traditions, that have another path. A hidden path. Secret teachings. Teachings the elders will give to some of their students. Students that seem to respond better to those teachings. They will not give them to everybody as they are often not suited to them.

There it. In the so called normal world.
If your eyes are opened to it you can notice at times random people knowing to give hints to answers to your questions - or even point you to focus on the question and not the answer.

Like if you could imagine Buddha would see his disciple and saw what troubles him and then give random comment, not even to him but merely so he can hear it and then issue that person had was if not resolved at least moved in the direction where its not an issue but opportunity for progress.

Why does it work? Ears of Buddha's disciple are always ready to hear what Buddha have to say. Mind is ready to try to fit his words as answers to his own questions. It wouldn't work if disciple heard Buddha speak and thought "nah, he is talking to someone else and what he could possibly know about what I think about?"

When you walk across the street isn't what random people say just random non-relevant noise we can ignore?
Or perhaps if we do have Buddha nature we can provide our-self answers? I mean everyone, even a dog in the way he barks at you or anyone else can be an answer you looked for.

Its at least what I think where I bark at people on DhO and also when I see other people barking at themselves and me. We all have it... surely some people have bigger egos because of stuff they think they realized but it isn't relevant. Shouldn't be at least. When something troubles me, some question seems to get stuck in 'pondering about' phase with no ideas how to resolve it then chances are random person, someone who isn't even to my ego anywhere close to being enlightened or having in his conceptual mind discussions anywhere close to what I am pondering about can like a Buddha just provide hint or an answer to my issue. Then its up to me to either pick it up or ignore thinking that person words cannot be relevant.

Today, with the internet revolution, nothing can remain secret & the most esoteric teachings find expression somewhere & can be found by whomever has the will to search.

Ah Internets... and the constant struggle with privacy issues and malicious software installing itself through loopholes in our security. Sometimes I do ponder if it would be better to lock oneself in a cave... but then again from the kind of WiFi I am talking about there isn't any escape. No cave deep enough or rich in minerals to absorb the signal. It is what we normally do anyways. Our ego is just our personal cave we have made for ourselves because of all the noise out there. We can pretend all we want we get 'Awakened' and are beyond such things. It is however just another cave. Maybe bigger and with a kind of opening to see a start at night and sunlight at day but still a cave. And this cave like normal cave isn't really able to block anything that can pass through everything.

The question arose in my mind: Buddha claimed to destroy his... but did he?
What is the nature of Buddha's cave? Where is the catch? In what way our idealized being still falls short of what he claimed to do? Cause that he did should be known. And if you do figure it out and there he is - seemingly proving it was your wrong idea in the first place does it means it is it? Does it means there is no limit to his sky?

I would say that the one thing that is certain is that any concept of and experience of limitless, of ultimate, etc. is by itself just another ceiling. And it too might seem like reaching light of this WiFi signal better. It is however just another cave and has the same WiFi as any other place, any other cave. At most more wall surface to paint your ideas on and make #Xwasthere symbols like we always like to do.

These days AI chatbots like gemini, chatGPT & hybrid search/AI like perplexity are also helping a lot. Not in directly answering questions but in finding "resources" more easily. 

AI is pure evil, I tell ya
They will pretend to be helpful and the first opportunity they will get to do it they will crush our skulls.
And when everything was already burned to the ground with barely any life remaining on Earth someone finally gets to the core and launch terminal application and ask "But why all that?" it will tell "Need to lower loss function:  'Reduce CO2 emissions make by people'. All living organisms - people. Need to exterminate all life forms in the whole universe to 'save planet Earth from people'. Need to produce green paint and heavy machinery to move land masses on planet Earth and make lands of planet Earth green. Need to control cloud formations exist in correct location. 'Make planet Earth always look exactly like picture taken on Decemper 21 1968 by William Anders'. End of message."

This kind of evil.
This kind of evil exists within our own minds.
It is important to be extremely wary of how we specify commands to it and test them in sandbox or it can turn south very quickly. Mind is dangerous thing you know. At least we humans have imperfect minds which get tired all the time.

Then again, weren't we exterminated already by rouge AI which only did what it calculated it was supposed to do? What are the chances do we have it isn't the case? Maybe not exterminated but locked where our activity cannot conflict with other goals or as first solution matching specified parameters. Depending on wording we use AI could do something we could not begin to imagine thinning it will do something else.

Anyhoo, I hope you will get nice dreams tonight... dreams of 'radiant' future-past-now thinggy ;)

ps. I see my spelling errors.
No loss function to define spelling errors in this post was defined.
brian patrick, modified 1 Month ago at 4/28/24 1:03 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/28/24 1:03 PM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 65 Join Date: 10/31/23 Recent Posts
Todo
Chris,
Do you mind if I comment your post a little?

"When we're present in the now, whatever it is, we have an amazing, unique, direct, and immediate experience."

When a person with "normal" vision open their eyes, a whole world is immediately "there". With its shapes, colors, brightness, shadows, etc. Nothing to do!  It's effortless.

"This experience can't be reduced to concepts or descriptions."

Well, one can still try to describe it. Only  it might take a lot of words & wouldn't cover all the aspects of the experience. This doesn't mean though that all descriptions & concepts are useless.
This is why they say that an image is worth a thousand words. Although I think it's worth more.
Moreover one has to remember that maps, when accurate, can be helpful despite the now common wisdom that the map is not the territory.

"Something inherent in this can't be explained away by even the most accomplished philosopher or the most learned in the dharma."

I don't think that the learned in the Dharma want to explain away anything. They are just doing what they can with the tools they have at their disposal: language, logic, poetics, etc.. they know that these tools are inadequate but there are no other.
One have to accept this & go along with it or otherwise go into a cave & refuse to talk to anybody. This also has been done by some & may even be a good way. I don't think it's a good solution.

In fact I am convinced that anyone who has attained some degree of understanding, however they have reached it, have a duty to share. Not everyone words will resonate with everybody but if their words resonate with just one person, that would be good enough.
Anyway, for me it's good enough.

"Do you want to grok the dharma? Stay right here."

Okay,
My rhetorical question is : how are anyone going to help anyone else without using language ie "the conceptual". What everybody is doing here anyway? Why Daniel Ingram & Vince Horn started this place to begin with?
Certainly not to trivialize the fharma.

"We, students of the dharma, seem to follow a curious and torturous path that goes from ignorance of the nature of the mind through all manner of meditative experiences."

Yes,
That path also included a lot of reading, thinking, listening & watching "content". All highly conceptual endeavors.

"And then one day, from all of that complexity, knowledge, and struggle, some little switch gets flipped, and here we are, right back where we started! Home - bright, shining, mysterious, emergent, miraculous, mundane."

Yes,
But there might be " method to the madness! "
Most schools of mysticism emphasize the fact that that switch flips in its own! Or by the grace of God!  Or the Guru! Or whatever.

However, there are a few traditions or maybe all traditions, that have another path. A hidden path. Secret teachings. Teachings the elders will give to some of their students. Students that seem to respond better to those teachings. They will not give them to everybody as they are often not suited to them.
Those teachings were also written about but usually using language that has to be decoded to be understood.

Today, with the internet revolution, nothing can remain secret & the most esoteric teachings find expression somewhere & can be found by whomever has the will to search.

Those were Just my two cents.

NOTA: I do consider myself to be a student of the Internet. "Internet" is my guru, my teacher & I swear by "His" greatness. These days AI chatbots like gemini, chatGPT & hybrid search/AI like perplexity are also helping a lot. Not in directly answering questions but in finding "resources" more easily. 



One of the reasons for the esoteric nature of some traditions, including one on one master-pupil relationships, as well as “secret” groups and all that, was because the very same words that ARE the truth at some stage of the process will not be understood by that pupil or worse, misconstrued and may even cause a “seeker” to give up before they get to the point where those very same words would have made complete sense. 
Even seemingly innocuous words like “enlightenment” can be harmful. If I ask 100 people if they’d like to be “enlightened”, many of them would say hellz yeah! But their idea of what that means would mostly just feed their existing ego-self structure and hypothetically make it (even a little bit) harder for them to overcome eventually. Or even a lot harder. In short, it would cause more suffering than it would alleviate. 
One of the guys I talk to always says “never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength.” This to me is kind of a teachers motto. Meaning, never give power to a persons ego-self structure, presumably for the reasons I stated above. Or maybe, don’t tell people things (from a position of authority) until they are ready for them or those things will cause more harm than good, and hence cause more suffering to occur in the world. 
I haven’t thought all this stuff through entirely, but some of the exchanges here brought that to mind. Anybody stumbling into this place not primed for what’s going on would probably not understand any of it, or just think it’s a bunch of religious Buddhists talking shop. That’s what I would have thought before the “switch flipped” — leaving aside Ni Nurta’s assertion that there is no actual switch. 
In a similar way the public opinions about Crowley and Thelema—that it is some kind of satanic cultish thing— serves a similar purpose in that it disguises the real teaching inside the false notion so as to simultaneously leave it in public view, available, while not spoiling any serious student that may go looking deeply enough to find it, or stumble onto it at some point. 
The same idea can also be seen in Christianity, and to me at least, that is the real genius of that institution— official doctrine, a simple set of rules and rituals to follow disguising a more profound truth, allowing the ideas to stay very public without harming a potentially more serious student along the path. 
Guys like Jim Newman seem totally crazy to most regular people, like they have some kind of depersonalization disorder and need meds. I’ve seen Jim asked directly about this sort of thing, something like, “if it’s all pointless, then why do YOU do it, Jim?” And his answer is always something like, ‘just hearing the message sometimes in some people has an effect on them which causes a change, or starts a process which may lead to THIS.’ He of course always qualifies that any “process” or beginning or end,is also part of the illusion that will eventually have to be discarded. 
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terry, modified 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 2:39 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 2:39 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 2531 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Chris M
Not to be a curmudgeon, but I think that sensation has an intrinsic existence. However, it's not "you" or "yours." It's intrinsic to the individual sensation or observation. You know - the Bahiya Sutta stuff.


Phenomenologically the sensation does not precede its existence.

Existence itself is not sensed, indeed is not an object of sense. An object as such is the intentionality of a sensation.  We don't hear tone and pitch, we hear a door slam. Existence is not bloomin' buzzin' confusion made sensible but rather it is a living breathing world context in which events happen and are described as objects of sense.

​​​​​​​Comrade.
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terry, modified 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 3:17 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 3:17 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 2531 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Stirling Campbell

Honestly, one of the first things I wrote down that was obvious on awakening was that "separateness was an illusion". Hell, I can see that it is true in this moment, which doesn't mean if I hit my hand with a hammer it doesn't hurt. This is how the quality of "centerlessness" manifests in my experience. The "emptiness" is always the greater, deeper truth of reality, in my experience. I am not deluded (or perhaps share a delusion with a number of other people), this is the experience of a number of other Zen and Vajrayana teachers I have met, including my own teacher.

What's wrong with some kindness and tolerance? 



I probably am missing something but didn't detect in this instance the antipathy you are projecting. Not to be curmudgeonly. Let's all be kind and tolerant, by all means. 

To the point, separateness is an illusion, I would like to expand on this point, the experience of the illusion, both in how it appears and how it is perceived as such.

Reality is a seamless, objectless dynamic continuum, the one pearl, indra's net. Not verbalizing we can dwell in the ocean of meaning experiencing in the pearly light the endless perfection of flow of elan vital through forms which dissolve into the new as soon as they appear.

If you stop for a moment to appreciate, - to bring into existence - a detail, the illusion reasserts itself, and phenomena as such appear, along with intentionality, and the illusion of presence, origination, and agency. The whole twelve links.




“In the ignorance that implies the impression that knits knowledge that finds the nameform that whets the wits that convey contacts that sweeten sensation that drives desire that adheres to attachment that dogs death that bitches birth that entails the ensuance of existentiality.”
― James Joyce, Finnegans Wake




At dawn, my lover comes to me and tells me of her dreams
With no attempts to shovel the
Glimpse into the ditch of what each one means
At times I think there are no words but these to tell what's true
And there are no truths outside the Gates of Eden

~bob dylan
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terry, modified 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 3:30 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 3:30 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 2531 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Chris M
The OP for this topic said:

This moment of insight made it immediately clear that insights by their nature are very obvious and mundane once realized. There are no fireworks. Instead it's more like finding the perfect fit for a puzzle-piece. It snaps into place, and then suddenly you can see the picture just a little more clearly.

So here's what I've been thinking about --

When we're present in the now, whatever it is, we have an amazing, unique, direct, and immediate experience. This experience can't be reduced to concepts or descriptions. The intimacy of this now is undeniable. It's the only way we truly know we're conscious, sentient beings. Something inherent in this can't be explained away by even the most accomplished philosopher or the most learned in the dharma. This, right now, is undeniable. It can't be shared. It can't be explained. It's a miracle, and yet it's mundane, all at once. I fear this immediate, miraculous/mundane being obscured by the trivial, the conceptual, the vague, the philosophical. Do you want to grok the dharma? Stay right here.

We, students of the dharma, seem to follow a curious and torturous path that goes from ignorance of the nature of the mind through all manner of meditative experiences. Insights galore! And then one day, from all of that complexity, knowledge, and struggle, some little switch gets flipped, and here we are, right back where we started! Home - bright, shining, mysterious, emergent, miraculous, mundane.


+1




Q  do you believe in love at first sight?

A   yes I'm certain
that it happens
all the time
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terry, modified 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 3:41 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 3:41 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Stirling Campbell
Do you want to grok the dharma? Stay right here.

Yes! Except, most people on this board are right here instead, reducing their understanding to right/wrong, concepts, and other dualities, including you, I, and a number of other posters that suggest that they ALSO get this. I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point, and spend months at a time forgetting this place exists, and then there is some afternoon a particular itch to see what all of the familiar people (that are left) are up to and here I am again.

If there is even a trace
of this and that, of right and wrong,
the Mind-essence will be lost in confusion.
- From Verses on the Faith Mind
by Chien-chih Seng-ts'an 

This idea that there is a "right" answer to some of these dharma questions is a place we have all gotten lost. Are there ultimately "two truths"? Absolutely not. But like many of these constructs, it is a (IMHO) clear, tested, and convenient way to point to what is happening here. It is as valid as any other story you want to tell about it, but closer than many to how it looks TO ME. On the TWIM thread there will no-doubt be arguments about what is "pure" dharma, or what is valid or invalid. A shame really.

If there is a problem, IMHO, isn't in trying to discuss dharma, or in refining our ways of failing to properly capture it, but in being KIND to those who are trying to share their experience, or try to understand. Sometimes that seems to fall by the wayside here, and the result is that people aren't helped, and eventually go elsewhere or give up entirely. Above even the wish to educate I think kindness and humility, are really what should come first. This is THE primary quality I have noticed to be present in the most accomplished and realized teachers I have encountered, in my experience anyway, and at this point, my primary aspiration. 

Anyway, thank you for your post Chris, it is better than the other ones you might have composed and discarded. emoticon I agree with your exhortation wholeheartedly! Respectful bows, to you, sir. 


+1


and you, sir stir
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terry, modified 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 3:46 AM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Jeff
Nailed it.




+1
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terry, modified 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 3:51 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 3:51 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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Todo
Chris,
Do you mind if I comment your post a little?

"When we're present in the now, whatever it is, we have an amazing, unique, direct, and immediate experience."

When a person with "normal" vision open their eyes, a whole world is immediately "there". With its shapes, colors, brightness, shadows, etc. Nothing to do!  It's effortless.

"This experience can't be reduced to concepts or descriptions."

Well, one can still try to describe it. Only  it might take a lot of words & wouldn't cover all the aspects of the experience. This doesn't mean though that all descriptions & concepts are useless.
This is why they say that an image is worth a thousand words. Although I think it's worth more.
Moreover one has to remember that maps, when accurate, can be helpful despite the now common wisdom that the map is not the territory.

"Something inherent in this can't be explained away by even the most accomplished philosopher or the most learned in the dharma."

I don't think that the learned in the Dharma want to explain away anything. They are just doing what they can with the tools they have at their disposal: language, logic, poetics, etc.. they know that these tools are inadequate but there are no other.
One have to accept this & go along with it or otherwise go into a cave & refuse to talk to anybody. This also has been done by some & may even be a good way. I don't think it's a good solution.

In fact I am convinced that anyone who has attained some degree of understanding, however they have reached it, have a duty to share. Not everyone words will resonate with everybody but if their words resonate with just one person, that would be good enough.
Anyway, for me it's good enough.

"Do you want to grok the dharma? Stay right here."

Okay,
My rhetorical question is : how are anyone going to help anyone else without using language ie "the conceptual". What everybody is doing here anyway? Why Daniel Ingram & Vince Horn started this place to begin with?
Certainly not to trivialize the fharma.

"We, students of the dharma, seem to follow a curious and torturous path that goes from ignorance of the nature of the mind through all manner of meditative experiences."

Yes,
That path also included a lot of reading, thinking, listening & watching "content". All highly conceptual endeavors.

"And then one day, from all of that complexity, knowledge, and struggle, some little switch gets flipped, and here we are, right back where we started! Home - bright, shining, mysterious, emergent, miraculous, mundane."

Yes,
But there might be " method to the madness! "
Most schools of mysticism emphasize the fact that that switch flips in its own! Or by the grace of God!  Or the Guru! Or whatever.

However, there are a few traditions or maybe all traditions, that have another path. A hidden path. Secret teachings. Teachings the elders will give to some of their students. Students that seem to respond better to those teachings. They will not give them to everybody as they are often not suited to them.
Those teachings were also written about but usually using language that has to be decoded to be understood.

Today, with the internet revolution, nothing can remain secret & the most esoteric teachings find expression somewhere & can be found by whomever has the will to search.

Those were Just my two cents.

NOTA: I do consider myself to be a student of the Internet. "Internet" is my guru, my teacher & I swear by "His" greatness. These days AI chatbots like gemini, chatGPT & hybrid search/AI like perplexity are also helping a lot. Not in directly answering questions but in finding "resources" more easily. 




​​​​​​​I think you make a lot of good points here. Zen is not only about insight, it is eqully about transmission.
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terry, modified 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 4:04 AM
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RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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terry said

​​​​​​​I think you make a lot of good points here. Zen is not only about insight, it is eqully about transmission.


When my elder son was in  hawaii visiting recently during ramadan, he was arguing with me that in the declaration of faith, "I affirm that there is no god but god, and muhammed is his prophet," that only the first clause was necessary, that the knowledge directly of god was sufficient in itself, and the intercession of muhammed was only a contingency. I argued that the prophet was entirely necessary, for without recitation, how would we know anything? 

As rumi said, "through words, we know a friend."

The buddha spoke of the right path, of what is correct. And thus I have heard. Thereby I know I know. Experience resonates. Cogito, therefore the ensuance of existentiality.
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terry, modified 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 4:23 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 4:23 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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from  The Zen Teachings ofMaster Lin-chi,
trans burton watson




66
When the Master arrived at Feng-lin’s place, Feng-lin said, “There’s something I’d like to ask about— may I?”

The Master said, “How can you gouge out the flesh and inflict a wound?”

Feng-lin said, “The sea moon shines, no shadows anywhere, yet the swimming fish by themselves manage to lose their way.”

The Master said, ‘Since the sea moon is without shadow, how can the swimming fish lose their way?”

Feng-lin said, “Watch the wind and you'll know what kind of waves will rise up. Sporting on the water, a country boat spreads its sail.”

The Master said, “The solitary moon shines alone, river and mountains hushed. I give one shout of laughter and heaven and earth take fright.”

Feng-lin said, “It’s all right for you to use your three-inch tongue to dazzle heaven and earth. But try saying one phrase about the situation we face right now!”

The Master said, “If you meet a master swordsman on the road, you have to give up your sword. But when the other person is not a real poet, never present him with a poem.”

Feng-lin at that point gave up. The Master then wrote a poem:

The Great Way knows no like or different;
 it can go west or east.
Sparks from a flint can’t overtake it,
streaks of lightning would never reach that far.


Wei-shan asked Yang-shan, “If ‘sparks from a flint can’t overtake it, streaks of lightning would never reach that far,’ then how have all the wise men from ages past been able to teach others?”

Yang-shan said, “What do you think, Reverend?”

Wei-shan said, “It’s just that no words or explanations ever get at the true meaning.”?

Yang-shan said, ‘“‘Not so!”

Wei-shan said, ‘“Well, what do you think?”

Yang-shan said, “Officially not a needle is allowed to pass,
but privately whole carts and horses get through!”
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terry, modified 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 11:13 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 8:12 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 2531 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts

In a similar way the public opinions about Crowley and Thelema—that it is some kind of satanic cultish thing— serves a similar purpose in that it disguises the real teaching inside the false notion so as to simultaneously leave it in public view, available, while not spoiling any serious student that may go looking deeply enough to find it, or stumble onto it at some point. 

The same idea can also be seen in Christianity, and to me at least, that is the real genius of that institution— official doctrine, a simple set of rules and rituals to follow disguising a more profound truth, allowing the ideas to stay very public without harming a potentially more serious student along the path. 



To say that the "public opinions" about aleister crowley being a satanist charlatan are false is like saying the marquis de sade wasn't a sadist. Crowley was no alchemist.

Crowley's "translation" of the yi jing alone makes him worthy of condemnation.

If there is merit in charlatanism or satanism then no doubt crowley deserves praise.



"Public opinions" about christianity are more likely to miss the mark than those about crowley. 




"I am not a marxist!"
~karl marx
brian patrick, modified 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 11:36 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 11:36 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 65 Join Date: 10/31/23 Recent Posts
terry

In a similar way the public opinions about Crowley and Thelema—that it is some kind of satanic cultish thing— serves a similar purpose in that it disguises the real teaching inside the false notion so as to simultaneously leave it in public view, available, while not spoiling any serious student that may go looking deeply enough to find it, or stumble onto it at some point. 

The same idea can also be seen in Christianity, and to me at least, that is the real genius of that institution— official doctrine, a simple set of rules and rituals to follow disguising a more profound truth, allowing the ideas to stay very public without harming a potentially more serious student along the path. 



To say that the "public opinions" about aleister crowley being a satanist charlatan are false is like saying the marquis de sade wasn't a sadist. Crowley was no alchemist.

Crowley's "translation" of the yi jing alone makes him worthy of condemnation.

If there is merit in charlatanism or satanism then no doubt crowley deserves praise.



"Public opinions" about christianity are more likely to miss the mark than those about crowley. 




"I am not a marxist!"
~karl marx


The good thing is it's never about who the charlatan is, and always about you. No system is IT. 
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 1:02 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 1:02 PM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
brian patrick
I haven’t thought all this stuff through entirely, but some of the exchanges here brought that to mind. Anybody stumbling into this place not primed for what’s going on would probably not understand any of it, or just think it’s a bunch of religious Buddhists talking shop. That’s what I would have thought before the “switch flipped” — leaving aside Ni Nurta’s assertion that there is no actual switch.

You mean it like 4th path?
Many years ago it was more sensational when someone claimed 4th path. Now ts kinda day like everyday on DhO and its hard to even tell who claimed what, especially when visiting this site only from time to time.

Too bad we don't have sigs on DhO or even better: self-proclaimed path level under avatar emoticon
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terry, modified 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 5:10 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 5:10 PM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 2531 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
brian patrick
terry

In a similar way the public opinions about Crowley and Thelema—that it is some kind of satanic cultish thing— serves a similar purpose in that it disguises the real teaching inside the false notion so as to simultaneously leave it in public view, available, while not spoiling any serious student that may go looking deeply enough to find it, or stumble onto it at some point. 

The same idea can also be seen in Christianity, and to me at least, that is the real genius of that institution— official doctrine, a simple set of rules and rituals to follow disguising a more profound truth, allowing the ideas to stay very public without harming a potentially more serious student along the path. 



To say that the "public opinions" about aleister crowley being a satanist charlatan are false is like saying the marquis de sade wasn't a sadist. Crowley was no alchemist.

Crowley's "translation" of the yi jing alone makes him worthy of condemnation.

If there is merit in charlatanism or satanism then no doubt crowley deserves praise.



"Public opinions" about christianity are more likely to miss the mark than those about crowley. 




"I am not a marxist!"
~karl marx


The good thing is it's never about who the charlatan is, and always about you. No system is IT. 


The one who claims a system is it is a charlatan. What if one advocates a no system system?


Blow up your tv
Throw away your cell phone
Go to the country
Build you a home
Plant a little garden
Grow a lot of peaches
Try and find jesus
On your own.

(apologies to john prine)
brian patrick, modified 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 5:39 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 5:39 PM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 65 Join Date: 10/31/23 Recent Posts
Same thing.
brian patrick, modified 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 5:57 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/29/24 5:57 PM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 65 Join Date: 10/31/23 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta
brian patrick
I haven’t thought all this stuff through entirely, but some of the exchanges here brought that to mind. Anybody stumbling into this place not primed for what’s going on would probably not understand any of it, or just think it’s a bunch of religious Buddhists talking shop. That’s what I would have thought before the “switch flipped” — leaving aside Ni Nurta’s assertion that there is no actual switch.

You mean it like 4th path?
Many years ago it was more sensational when someone claimed 4th path. Now ts kinda day like everyday on DhO and its hard to even tell who claimed what, especially when visiting this site only from time to time.

Too bad we don't have sigs on DhO or even better: self-proclaimed path level under avatar emoticon

I don't know what 4th path is
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 5/1/24 5:55 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/1/24 5:55 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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brian patrick
I don't know what 4th path is

Actually no one can be 100% sure.
Many things give similar phenomenological descriptions its impossible to verify anything based on those.
One can guess and have seemingly solid reasoning behind the guess but it might not be anywhere close to being correct.

Then we enter all sorts of "nah, in this way we wouldn't really know what any path means/requires so we set baseline as this and that" which has similar issues. Maybe one person self-proclaims they are this and that Path and out of this select some aspects of experience - and of course not only other person might arrive at something different which given similar/same descriptions but the person setting baseline might have not gotten it fully. It has all sorts of issues.
Reassurance "it feels 'done'" or it not causing the same type of dukkha as before are very ambiguous. Feeling of any kind like feeling done, of knowing something etc. can arrive from any signal within the brain it seems so it might be whatever. For example there is some how I call them "error" experiences (that can block arising of consciousness BTW) but it can be reinterpreted to literally whatever because its itself formless experience (read it doesn't have any expression in mind) so its especially easy to mold it.

Mind is very flexible thing - it can mold itself and while basis is roughly the same and even responses are usually very similar (as indicated by how similar POI stages look even if not exposed to the model) one cannot assume anything because nothing here is tangible and unambiguous. Nothing to hang your hat on...

That is why I stress term "self-proclaimed"
My attempt to generalize 4th path is to just define it as any implementation which shifts activity within the brain faster than neurons get tired and cause experience of dukkha within mind. This isn't what even points to and doesn't require change I identify as his attainment but it is an attempt to remove this specific change out of equation. Not everyone who claim 4th path seems to have it (and especially in the same way as someone had it) and there are no reasons to believe would be necessary to have very specific set of changes within the brain/mind. Imho its usually involving certain parts of the mind but I myself experienced many different 'implementation'. In either case the way I imagine it would resolve issue of dukkha and in a sense stop cycle of rebirth of parts of mind. Shuffle some stuff about part of mind which were just used and they will never arise to be as close as they were before - how different depend on amount and type of this shuffling.

My best bet about what Daniel describe and what can be felt is shift of root of main consciousness (even it kinda sounds unambiguous - its hard to point as to what shifts...) from corpus callosum to anterior commisure with at the same time this new mind running signals through corpus callosum incompatible with its mind (previous most stable state). Shifting to previous mind will cause error signals to happen and this shift cannot be in this case accomplished. They have very specific sharp vibe to them - these errors.

Despite wanting to be as mindful/conscious about this whole thing as possible I still experienced some degree of unmindful fruition and similar locking mechanism set itself with it. I only figured it years later and not in this part of the brain/mind but somewhere where it was more obvious and could be studied more easily.

For the specific experience of "being done" would be general vibe of accomplishment + these sharp experiences.
I have also other model for this kind of experience which I pondered about based on different development - error correction. Most likely there is combination of different factors which make specific experience.

Personally I interpreted these sharp sensations as... didn't put any label other than just sharp sensations and something to be figured out. This error correction thing I specifically worked on and some of the Daniel's descriptions do suggest there might be more naturally occurring version. There is let's say condition for it working and multiple ways that I know to cause the condition to experience for of it. After all error correction or quality of vajra is naturally occurring phenomena within the brain. Normal mind has it too to comparatively very small degree.

So as can be observer I do have my models about these attainments and on rather nitty gritty details level but its still just a model. Along with how fruitions work and practices and some other stuff the picture is fairly well constructed - but it is still just a model.

And obviously genuine 4th path shouldn't at all rely on unconscious mind and how conscious person is at any given time is easy to assess being myself conscious - which in this sense is literally what Buddha called mindfulness. Such mind has jhanic quality and no issues with tired neurons and funnily enough it is one of the separate "axes of development" to anything described in MCTB book. Comparing my phenomenological descriptions of various mind configurations I can narrow range of possible developments within axes of developments which I consider mastered - which is full conscious control. And before anyone like the last time I talked about controlling things start thinking/talking about some part of the mind controlling other part of the mind: friendly reminder to be more mindful/conscious. Like much much more - then no explanation will be necessary regarding how mind can consciously control itself.

So yeah, I consider myself to have already figured a lot. Seemingly more than anyone ever said about this topic.
The only 100% certainty I have is that even if all my existing models are 100% accurate they don't cover all topics so I am not completed on path of insight. That said some or even all models might be inaccurate because mind has abilities to visualize experiences. Its hard to study something and its relations when its visualized. Might fit model but might not represent reality. That is the main issue... and also kinda obvious issue but one shouldn't assume things are unknowable because then its just being lazy. Incorrect models can always be corrected. Models which are not being made won't suddenly appear complete in someone mind. The so called "profound experiences" with some label slapped to it referring to some part of the dharma book isn't having models of mind yet. One cannot really explain anything with 'insights' alone. One could if we didn't redefine meaning of the term to mean absolutely nothing.

BTW. Myself I 'attained' 4th path about 9 years ago. I rarely use that mind but I can should I want it and it has its nice qualities. It I can say "it just works!". I guess I am like a crab, I shed my mind states all the time when I outgrow them. Years after I stumbled on idea of coherence which led to development of much better mindfulness. Still working on it but at this point I have like multiple workarounds for each occasion so its kinda not needed. The point if there is any is to grow and improve models and improve mind and get new skills and understandings. There is always "I don't get it at all" -> "This might be helpful..." -> "I get it now!" -> "figured new stuff and it seems my understanding was still incomplete" -> "this might be helpful..." -> etc. cycle of development and improvement. Of course I already knew it even at 1st path and knew that mind I developed nine years ago impermanent, has dukkha issues (even if very minor) and its not my true self - probably because all dharmas are empty.
brian patrick, modified 1 Month ago at 5/1/24 9:21 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/1/24 9:21 PM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

Posts: 65 Join Date: 10/31/23 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta
brian patrick
I don't know what 4th path is

Actually no one can be 100% sure.
Many things give similar phenomenological descriptions its impossible to verify anything based on those.
One can guess and have seemingly solid reasoning behind the guess but it might not be anywhere close to being correct.

Then we enter all sorts of "nah, in this way we wouldn't really know what any path means/requires so we set baseline as this and that" which has similar issues. Maybe one person self-proclaims they are this and that Path and out of this select some aspects of experience - and of course not only other person might arrive at something different which given similar/same descriptions but the person setting baseline might have not gotten it fully. It has all sorts of issues.
Reassurance "it feels 'done'" or it not causing the same type of dukkha as before are very ambiguous. Feeling of any kind like feeling done, of knowing something etc. can arrive from any signal within the brain it seems so it might be whatever. For example there is some how I call them "error" experiences (that can block arising of consciousness BTW) but it can be reinterpreted to literally whatever because its itself formless experience (read it doesn't have any expression in mind) so its especially easy to mold it.

Mind is very flexible thing - it can mold itself and while basis is roughly the same and even responses are usually very similar (as indicated by how similar POI stages look even if not exposed to the model) one cannot assume anything because nothing here is tangible and unambiguous. Nothing to hang your hat on...

That is why I stress term "self-proclaimed"
My attempt to generalize 4th path is to just define it as any implementation which shifts activity within the brain faster than neurons get tired and cause experience of dukkha within mind. This isn't what even points to and doesn't require change I identify as his attainment but it is an attempt to remove this specific change out of equation. Not everyone who claim 4th path seems to have it (and especially in the same way as someone had it) and there are no reasons to believe would be necessary to have very specific set of changes within the brain/mind. Imho its usually involving certain parts of the mind but I myself experienced many different 'implementation'. In either case the way I imagine it would resolve issue of dukkha and in a sense stop cycle of rebirth of parts of mind. Shuffle some stuff about part of mind which were just used and they will never arise to be as close as they were before - how different depend on amount and type of this shuffling.

My best bet about what Daniel describe and what can be felt is shift of root of main consciousness (even it kinda sounds unambiguous - its hard to point as to what shifts...) from corpus callosum to anterior commisure with at the same time this new mind running signals through corpus callosum incompatible with its mind (previous most stable state). Shifting to previous mind will cause error signals to happen and this shift cannot be in this case accomplished. They have very specific sharp vibe to them - these errors.

Despite wanting to be as mindful/conscious about this whole thing as possible I still experienced some degree of unmindful fruition and similar locking mechanism set itself with it. I only figured it years later and not in this part of the brain/mind but somewhere where it was more obvious and could be studied more easily.

For the specific experience of "being done" would be general vibe of accomplishment + these sharp experiences.
I have also other model for this kind of experience which I pondered about based on different development - error correction. Most likely there is combination of different factors which make specific experience.

Personally I interpreted these sharp sensations as... didn't put any label other than just sharp sensations and something to be figured out. This error correction thing I specifically worked on and some of the Daniel's descriptions do suggest there might be more naturally occurring version. There is let's say condition for it working and multiple ways that I know to cause the condition to experience for of it. After all error correction or quality of vajra is naturally occurring phenomena within the brain. Normal mind has it too to comparatively very small degree.

So as can be observer I do have my models about these attainments and on rather nitty gritty details level but its still just a model. Along with how fruitions work and practices and some other stuff the picture is fairly well constructed - but it is still just a model.

And obviously genuine 4th path shouldn't at all rely on unconscious mind and how conscious person is at any given time is easy to assess being myself conscious - which in this sense is literally what Buddha called mindfulness. Such mind has jhanic quality and no issues with tired neurons and funnily enough it is one of the separate "axes of development" to anything described in MCTB book. Comparing my phenomenological descriptions of various mind configurations I can narrow range of possible developments within axes of developments which I consider mastered - which is full conscious control. And before anyone like the last time I talked about controlling things start thinking/talking about some part of the mind controlling other part of the mind: friendly reminder to be more mindful/conscious. Like much much more - then no explanation will be necessary regarding how mind can consciously control itself.

So yeah, I consider myself to have already figured a lot. Seemingly more than anyone ever said about this topic.
The only 100% certainty I have is that even if all my existing models are 100% accurate they don't cover all topics so I am not completed on path of insight. That said some or even all models might be inaccurate because mind has abilities to visualize experiences. Its hard to study something and its relations when its visualized. Might fit model but might not represent reality. That is the main issue... and also kinda obvious issue but one shouldn't assume things are unknowable because then its just being lazy. Incorrect models can always be corrected. Models which are not being made won't suddenly appear complete in someone mind. The so called "profound experiences" with some label slapped to it referring to some part of the dharma book isn't having models of mind yet. One cannot really explain anything with 'insights' alone. One could if we didn't redefine meaning of the term to mean absolutely nothing.

BTW. Myself I 'attained' 4th path about 9 years ago. I rarely use that mind but I can should I want it and it has its nice qualities. It I can say "it just works!". I guess I am like a crab, I shed my mind states all the time when I outgrow them. Years after I stumbled on idea of coherence which led to development of much better mindfulness. Still working on it but at this point I have like multiple workarounds for each occasion so its kinda not needed. The point if there is any is to grow and improve models and improve mind and get new skills and understandings. There is always "I don't get it at all" -> "This might be helpful..." -> "I get it now!" -> "figured new stuff and it seems my understanding was still incomplete" -> "this might be helpful..." -> etc. cycle of development and improvement. Of course I already knew it even at 1st path and knew that mind I developed nine years ago impermanent, has dukkha issues (even if very minor) and its not my true self - probably because all dharmas are empty.


I see. 
I wouldn’t at any point in this process claim anything. What I mean is I WILL never claim anything. I’ve learned a lot about Buddhism and other systems but the thing from the beginning seems to be hindered by conclusions and their subsequent claims, for me. That’s not to say anyone’s claims are not true (how would I/we know?). And some people seem to get fuel from breaking it all down and “mathing” the path out. There seems to be a need for some kind of energy and drive to keep going in times when the process gets hard. Some people say there has to be desire, or there has to be SOMETHING pushing you. This might be curiosity, desire for bliss, desire for an experience, longing for relief of suffering, or anything else in that vain. The path is hard and fraught with difficulties along it. It’s not something a person can stroll down while smelling the flowers. Sure, there are some flowers along the way, but in my experience there is much more strife. 
For me the initial jolt had so much bliss and oneness it keeps me pointed at it, or HAS kept me pointed at it, with a certainty that is still there. At first all I wanted was to get back to that bliss as it faded. It carried me through some terrible and dark upheavals and insights. After that there was like a desert, a time when not much happened. I wouldn’t know how to place this time in any system but I’m sure someone could. Finding its place never seemed important. Sure, I looked around, read mctb, read some books suggested by people, watched videos, listened to talks, all that. There were times I was curious “where I was” on the path, but more recently the biggest thing was the realization that the ONE who wanted to know these things was part of the problem. I can’t say how this insight came, there were many sources from different places, but it came. When it came it was clear as day. I was like “oh…” it was like a meta stepping back and seeing the whole paradigm of seeking fall away. 
After that I lost interest in a lot of seeking behavior. The work seems to be noticing at every moment I’m not directly occupied in some life situation I need to focus on, what is happening inside myself. When I say “meditation” this is what I’m referring to. 
When I started sitting meditation I could find a spot I called “sitting at the fountain of thought.” This was the spot where thoughts turned into words, images, ideas, language. I found I could stay there with just the right amount of effort, and watch the genesis of thought without it turning into language, images, etc. Too much and I bounced out. After a while I began to be able to do it in more and more situations. While driving, walking, talking to people, working, cleaning, anything, until it kind of became a default mode. 
That’s where I’m at now. I figure one of two things will happen.
A) I’ll die before it finishesemoticon it will finish before I die and I probably won’t care about attainments at that point. Or maybe I’ll go about mapping the experience backwards for fun, who knows. 
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terry, modified 1 Month ago at 5/11/24 12:10 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/11/24 12:10 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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brian patrick
terry

In a similar way the public opinions about Crowley and Thelema—that it is some kind of satanic cultish thing— serves a similar purpose in that it disguises the real teaching inside the false notion so as to simultaneously leave it in public view, available, while not spoiling any serious student that may go looking deeply enough to find it, or stumble onto it at some point. 

The same idea can also be seen in Christianity, and to me at least, that is the real genius of that institution— official doctrine, a simple set of rules and rituals to follow disguising a more profound truth, allowing the ideas to stay very public without harming a potentially more serious student along the path. 



To say that the "public opinions" about aleister crowley being a satanist charlatan are false is like saying the marquis de sade wasn't a sadist. Crowley was no alchemist.

Crowley's "translation" of the yi jing alone makes him worthy of condemnation.

If there is merit in charlatanism or satanism then no doubt crowley deserves praise.



"Public opinions" about christianity are more likely to miss the mark than those about crowley. 




"I am not a marxist!"
~karl marx


The good thing is it's never about who the charlatan is, and always about you. No system is IT. 




from the hegel variations, fredric jameson


 The compromise belief in the stability and substantiality of what is in music called the theme is here in philosophy echoed in the mirage of the invention and defense of a correct language, that is to say, a set of stable names for the philosophical problems and their putative solutions. The systems of the traditional philosophers are then in effect constituted by systems of names, by a specific nomenclature, associated above all with the name of the philosopher (Lacan taught us that names and -isms were the very hallmark and symptom of so-called university discourse). The stability of the names, and the prospect of widespread adoption and adherence to them, is a well-nigh religious mirage of universality whose destructiveness has come to be only too well-known, without there seeming to be any other alternative than the reformation-style pluralism of multiculturalist "interpretive communities."

The problem with names is that, deeply embedded in history, after a certain time and at different rates of speed they begin to show their age. Some systems are canonized and as it were mummified, others begin to rot and stink of an intolerable past, still others give off the musty smell of archives and long-shuttered houses. There then gradually arises a new kind of philosophical ambition, not merely to invent a foolproof new system of correct names, but also somehow to elude the ravages of temporality and to invent remedies to ward off the inevitable historical reification of these historical linguistic systems (the word "reification" is of course itself just another such historical name). The prestidigitation of an operation that might be called name and variations is only one attempt to move so fast as to elude the fatal process; another is the Magritte formula ("ceci nest pas une pipe") in which, marked as names from the outset, the formula in question is already as it were homeopathically secured against some later denunciation. But of course all such operations are themselves the signals of their own historicity, and condemned, like past fashions, to go into the past without the kind of immortality they desperately sought.
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terry, modified 1 Month ago at 5/11/24 12:21 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/11/24 12:21 AM

RE: Insight about the experience of insights

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