Cutting to the chase

Cutting to the chase Pawel K 4/25/24 6:10 AM
RE: Cutting to the chase Will G 4/25/24 11:33 AM
RE: Cutting to the chase Pawel K 4/26/24 4:48 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase Olivier S 4/26/24 7:09 AM
RE: Cutting to the chase Pawel K 4/29/24 4:07 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase Olivier S 4/29/24 5:11 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase Pawel K 5/5/24 9:39 AM
RE: Cutting to the chase Olivier S 5/5/24 12:17 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase Pawel K 5/5/24 3:17 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase terry 5/5/24 2:13 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase terry 5/5/24 2:06 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase terry 5/5/24 1:47 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase Pawel K 5/7/24 4:45 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase terry 5/9/24 5:16 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase Papa Che Dusko 5/7/24 5:46 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase Pawel K 5/9/24 4:48 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase terry 5/9/24 8:50 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase Pawel K 5/10/24 3:06 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase terry 5/11/24 8:17 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase terry 5/10/24 1:36 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase Pawel K 5/11/24 4:17 AM
RE: Cutting to the chase terry 5/11/24 8:34 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase Pawel K 5/11/24 10:43 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase terry 5/12/24 2:18 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase terry 5/9/24 5:30 PM
My Nibbana related insights Pawel K 5/12/24 11:25 AM
RE: My Nibbana related insights terry 5/12/24 2:46 PM
RE: My Nibbana related insights terry 5/12/24 3:14 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase Pawel K 5/13/24 5:26 PM
Five Aggregates - feeling Pawel K 5/17/24 2:48 PM
RE: Five Aggregates - feeling terry 5/17/24 6:55 PM
RE: Five Aggregates - feeling Pawel K 5/18/24 12:46 PM
RE: Five Aggregates - feeling Papa Che Dusko 5/23/24 8:18 PM
DN vs Nibbana Pawel K 5/19/24 1:34 PM
Can neurons die? Pawel K 5/23/24 10:33 AM
Positional information Pawel K 5/23/24 10:30 AM
RE: Positional information Papa Che Dusko 5/23/24 8:16 PM
Ni* Pawel K 5/25/24 3:28 PM
Gone Pawel K 5/28/24 10:49 AM
RE: Cutting to the chase Chris M 5/28/24 6:24 PM
RE: Cutting to the chase Pawel K 5/31/24 3:49 PM
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Pawel K, modified 2 Months ago at 4/25/24 6:10 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/25/24 6:10 AM

Cutting to the chase

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Hello fellow DhO members and other unregistered readers,

Did you know you can stop cycling by going straight to its conclusion?

Because mind is like multi-dimensional puzzle and to reach some parts of mind in order to put them to sleep and activate something analogous it requires at times bending your mind in very unnatural ways it might be hard to always do - but should be doable if there is connection strong enough for *you* to be able to experience effects of part of mind cycling.

Fruition 101: It is literally just putting part of mind to deep unspecified length of time to do its sleeping/maintenance/etc. activities disconnected from needs of mind and unbothered by it. For that to actually work we need to also activate new similar part to take its place.

If you do that the moment there is first indication of tiredness you will never have POI or these fancy schmancy nanas. Also no dukkha and also why I always say neurons get tired. Neurons individually but also whole mind needs time to sort itself out and parts of mind which need to do it can be considered "tired" even if individual neurons are not tired.

Now my understanding is that if POI and going through all the nanas was actually needed or useful then the whole bloody thing wouldn't end in fruition anyways. Thus I started testing it if I cut cut the chase and how that would feel and how it would affect me and concluded that not only POI is not needed but person can just identify the nature of attainments in general and choose to have mind operate in this way. The key word is "choose". Its a choice, nothing more.

Of course in order for things to just work like that person needs to put an effort to know how to do these things and what that choice is about. Nothing 'just works'.

My mindset was like I always present it: to know what I need to do and do it rather than do something and have something happen.
And since that is the case I have lots of experience with failing - because the "what?" and "how?" isn't intrinsically known.

For that reason I could not avoid (read: I totally could - with more attempts but that would be pointless!) some cycling, could not avoid some meditation with methods to keep things going like typical pragmatic dharma maps describe them. The point however was in my head all along to recognize the most important aspects of cycles, of performed practices and not wait for attainment but just do it as soon as I had good idea and enough skills to do it and maybe most importantly (also because knowing what you want is literally knowing how to get it if you remove all the pesky descriptive mind dwelling in abstract ideas) knowing what I want to accomplish - which still required lots and lots of trial and error and having some more traditional POI cycles.

I wouldn't bother making this topic if not for the fact this very rare attitude.
Heck, knowing myself if everyone done this I would do something else because I'd still want to be somehow different... but who knows. Myself is the hardest person to guesstimate what it would do, always.

Concluding while adding additional info:
- cycles don't happen for magical purpose of enlightening us - they happen because there is an issue in part of mind which cannot turn itself down - and it needs to do it or it will experience dukkha
- fruition is just mind figuring how to turn itself down and switch activity to some other part of mind
- structure of POI/nanas is how it is again not to enlighten us having us to go through some magical pre-programmed stages but because how nervous system typically reacts and solves its internal issues
- issue at hand can be resolved at any time - here I advocate conscious mindful volitional action
- doing it like that is like learning how to drive a car - at first we think and are conscious about every single thing but after a while its just something we barely think about and it just happens - same with all the actions which might be necessary to switch part of mind which are active
- each "active" part of mind has its consciousness
- there exists methods how to do that from within this consciousnesses or by developing various types of meta-consciousnesses... here I am not even suggesting "how" but rather "what" and "why"
- mind is very interconnected and lots of things depend on other things
- when pondering how to do cessation of this whole mass of suffering that exist in it its important to realize that we might try and attempt at its cessation and even for limited time succeed (which BTW practices useful skills!) but to do it right all the parts of mind which are connected need to be involved in our "called fruition" need to be involved
- usually in practice its almost all parts of mind which are active at the time - and to be more precise everything that feels like experiencing any nana

Some time ago I said the best nana and the one I dwell most in is... 1st nana - "Analytical Knowledge of Body and Mind". This is why. Its indication from this nana which are sufficient to start doing something about "body and mind". Until mind gets little "tired" it doesn't cause itself to have any knowledge of itself. It just is. Once the switch or fruition or you could call it "cessation" (though I purposefully avoid this term as it focuses on cessation aspect too much even if its important) is happens the new parts of mind should NOT experience 1st nana or any nana. Not even EQ. The experience of EQ is already giant indicator there is an issue and went for far too long or perhaps was solved by something similar to fruition but on micro-scale and the moment it happens has very specific expressions.

Everything about the so called Enlightenment has one way or another to do with some kind of switching of parts of brain happening in the mind/brain. There is lots of ways to accomplish that and therefore lots of different experiences. From my personal experiences - its much much easier to play with these different ways and different experiences when they are the last thing that mind/brain needs. Having fresh clicking meat... I mean mind/consciousnesses which don't experience issues is the best time to play with switching them around in this or that way, play with triggers for these switches or any number of other things which are pleasant for the same reason of reducing per-unit-of-time activity within the brain like using jhanas (parallel activation of parts of mind... or arising of consciousnesses) or as I always called it "momentary cessations" which by design were designed to halt activity and not necessarily induce any switches in where activity should be after activity is resumed. Though that at times happened anyways.

Maybe as a last thing I mention pink elephant in the room: sense of self.
So.. it by itself is unrelated to dukkha in any way whatsoever so no point in talking about it. I mean sure this faculty is used in wrong ways and usually experiences most issues, etc. but it itself can be solved in the same way as every other dukkha so it doesn't really matter by itself. Not to mention our bodies have their maintenance mode of operation and once part of mind which experience as I always called them "tired neurons" and "routing issues" goes to sleep (undergoes cessation) body will just repair itself and sooner or later (in case of bigger issues) this part of mind will be used again not experiencing such issues. Healing might take longer time than just one time so if when using this part of mind again it still has issues its good to recognize these and do cessation again. Of course having better internal perception of mind allows to use consciousness to resolve some issues even faster but even in this case it isn't something done on active mind.

I mean that any precise actions are best done on mind which is not being used. Kinda like meditation - you don't do tuning of car that you drive in while driving it. Likewise you don't repair car while driving it. There might be impression that its the only sensible way to repair mind because how else would we do it... switch to other part of mind which currently is unused and probably getting its own type of dukkha that arises from lack of sufficient activation and use that to then from this other mind deal with previous mind. Of course its best to not do it right away. Things need to settle in mind, activity in nervous system needs to settle.

Anyways, that is about what I wanted to say.
If you read the whole thing then thanks you for your attention and now re-read this whole post again using fresh attention otherwise it will just mean you lost time reading it and haven't understood a single word.
Will G, modified 2 Months ago at 4/25/24 11:33 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/25/24 11:31 AM

RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 39 Join Date: 4/7/21 Recent Posts
Interesting post Ni, even though it feels like I pieced it together from the maybe 10% I think I understood. I think I actually have a similar hypothesis to your 'tired neurons' one regarding cycling, but I think about it more as a depletion of neurotransmitters (this is pure speculation): ie in early nanas you sort of gain some ability to direct the mind, using insight to flip it into a model of reality in which every moment is rewarding in itself. This culminates in a&p, in which the mind gains full control over the cookies it bakes itself, at which point it effectively burns through its energy supplies. Then in the DNs, the raw materials slowly build back up in the background until things balance out in EQ, and the cycle starts over again. I have no account of what fruition does in this model though.. When i think of it this way it's as though cycling is a way for the mind to stretch and exaggerate its capacities until it grows dispassionate with all the possibilities. Wether the dispassion or equanimity can happen on a macro scale that puts an end to cycling altogether is still an open question to me, although the highs and lows have trended towards more balance over the years. I feel like whenever I lean into a particularly high powered A&p i tend to crash for longer afterwards, which is in part where my theory comes from (along the lines of something like drug consumption).. anyway, what do you think?
Olivier S, modified 2 Months ago at 4/26/24 7:09 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/26/24 7:09 AM

RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 969 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Hi Ni,

Two interesting references for you ! If you can't find the articles, I must have them somewhere, I can email them to you. I think you will like it.

Petitmengin, C. (2006). Describing one’s subjective experience in the second person: An interview method for the science of consciousness. Phenomenology and the Cognitive Sciences5(3–4), 229–269. https://doi.org/10.1007/s11097-006-9022-2

Petitmengin, C., Remillieux, A., & Valenzuela-Moguillansky, C. (2019). Discovering the structures of lived experience: Towards a micro-phenomenological analysis method. Phenomenology and the Cognitive Sciences18(4), 691–730. https://doi.org/10.1007/s11097-018-9597-4
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Pawel K, modified 2 Months ago at 4/26/24 4:48 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/26/24 4:48 PM

RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Neurotransmitters definitely are involved but imho not necessarily the way we usually think.
Imho low levels of them are symptoms and not cause of the issues.

Imho nervous system is down-regulating activity because some places experience too much of it. Taking anti-depressants which increase levels can works because that stuff can cause activity to happen elsewhere and this can lead to activity to shift from places with issues. It can unfortunately also lead to the affected places to get too much stimulation and without any way to down-regulate which ends like taking anti-depressants some times ends despite promising first results.

In case of nanas imho there is definitely at times too much this stuff being used up during A&P but that is also imho not what causes the issue. Maybe at 5th nana some first effects can be caused by it but later hell that ensues is tired neurons through routing issues we cause during A&P by being perhaps too creative in creating stuff without being mindful (on brain level) how things relate. The same parts of the brain already doing self stuff can stretch their muscle and make all sorts of cool experiences out of thin air causing it all to feel as if we were mega ultra enlightened and everything seemingly coming our way and all feels so real and our mind is already perfectly developed and... it was all just a visualization - creative visualization which can lead to development of new things in the mind but at that point only a visualization and all pointing to parts of mind which are usually already too overburdened by pointers to them existing in mind. Now if we attempt to experience this brilliant mnd we had during A&P it will only add more activity. Not only nothing of the new things we experienced weren't really where we thought they were and nowhere developed as we thought they were but they made lots of connections to itself and mind as a whole, as a person might cling to these experiences thinking that all the dukkha they experience can be resolved by these experiences.
It is then because of this over-stimulation why brain needs to down-regulate neurotransmitters.

Overall however the issue is even more complex. It isn't just momentary suffering of individual neurons which by themselves have bigger issues to worry than lack of stimulation and expected responses caused by not having signal transmission medium. They have ATP running out, potassium calcium levels, internal/external wear of their cell stuff and levels of rare in body micro-elements and other nutrients, to name most obvious. This is an issue and what causes experience of dukkha but there are also issue with the network itself and what I call routing issues. Mind over time experiences "tiredness" of the kind where connections are getting too focused on specific parts of mind and don't go elsewhere to spread activity. There are also positive feedback loops causing some activity to literally blow-up causing immediately over-stimulation. There are much more nuances to this thing and in some cases more relevant like e.g. side activation where consciousness is activated as part of normal waking experience but the way mind naturally shifts activity causes it to experience multiple activations from different parts of the nervous system at the same time or as I call it experience of 'errors'. Its especially related to 3C nana dukkha nanas. This stuff is however resolved in the same way as any other 'routing issues' so overall its mostly something to ponder about to better understand how mind works.

All this stuff need to be repaired. Mind needs a lot of time to sort all that stuff out. When you use parts of the brain which should go to maintenance mode you will have bad time. Now EQ works but it doesn't exactly use the same parts of your nervous system. Not completely different but not exactly the same either. You can quickly fall from EQ to DN by wanting to experience A&P stuff. Less when you aren't very specific and its much harder to even remember A&P stuff from EQ.

Fruition like I said is mostly just large parts of mind being switched to new parts of mind.
It might sound ridiculous in light of this not being widely known fact BUT its not like we can tell. Most people experience hemispheric cycling multiple times a day and yet even though when 'manually' changing these it is obvious how both of these minds are "us" we cannot really even imagine the other mind and assume nothing like that exists. In this light in case of more drastic shift like in case of fruition people attention comes to effects of entrance and mysterious moment and feeling amazing and not that underlying hardware was replaced.

There are reasons for that - consciousnesses are synchronized by attention that 'drives' them and shapes conscious experience a lot. It is possible to develop mind that uses different ways of synchronization... which could be summed "best synchronization is not needing synchronization" and this makes these things easier to notice. While doing that first and advanced meditative tricks like the ones I describe leave for later is sound idea but there is a workaround: All the things mind can do after you could call it self realization or enlightenment or awakening of sorts, etc. it can already do.

Obviously the issue is answering the question "do what?"
Well, practice would be to observe our normal mind as it seems to be there and consider these things:
- its not permanent or solid but actually works in pulses
- the most important parts get activated in these pulses but can get activated outside these pulses also which is in-between moments this normal mind arises
- it is pointless to try to argue with this normal mind as it is or try to make it go away and trying to do so will only make it stronger
- in-between the moments it arises we can in fact do a lot of cool stuff
- discover that stuff mind can do in these moments, try to experience something even if might for the most part feel like nothing... like literally non-experience
- the act of mind doing something need not be of this normal mind and it then lacks certain feedback components which normally kinda confirm action but it doesn't feel any less 'real' and its quite opposite actually

When I say to "do" what fruition does I mean its something done in-between these moments. Done by mind which is still you and you do it but not the mind which normally asserts itself as being you with which you might identify. Its not all there is to mind. Mind is much larger than that, you are much larger emoticon

It might take some time to realize relative mastery of it but the amazing thing about this specific practice is that person can practice it at any time. No special prep required. In fact I would say the most efficient way to practice is to "do" stuff outside the cushion because then on-cushion mind is more plastic and it will be much easier to actually accomplish goals. At the same time on-cushion thinking is less focused so its harder to notice some things which require conceptually analyzing them to figure what to do. Even if its harder to do in waking consciousness if you make enough attempts at this time it will be easier later on cushion to not forget what you need to do and then it being easier do it and once its one on cushion then out of cushion it will be this much easier. Rinse and repeat.

I might even add that practicing this way was enough fun to make me just invent things to practice. Once you start feeling your mind its full of things to try out, things to discover and things you can feel it can be improved in how it works e.g. make it more jhanic or specific jhana, control some parameters of perception, etc. You don't need to tire normal mind with giving it something to do. It will when you interact with greater mind just slowly fade away. Or like Buddha put it will run for as long as its actually needed and once it isn't it will extinguish itself.
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Pawel K, modified 2 Months ago at 4/29/24 4:07 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/29/24 4:07 PM

RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
How is this switching stuff done...
I just talk it out with consciousnesses and agree what needs to be done, why, maybe throw some pointers about how and when to do it and then part of mind when everyone feels they are ready attempt doing it. After doing it for some time everyone gets pretty skilled at such sorts of things.

Well, consciousness operate in many modes but for out purpose its only enough to recognize two modes which I call:
- driver consciousness - its consciousness that we are actually conscious of and it drives its own actions
- executor consciousness - its doing stuff and doesn't expose its own actual consciousness from point of view of driver consciousnesses
Names represent how I called these things years ago. Probably could use improvement... or even finding how these things are called in dharma or something. Still it doesn't really make that much difference what note you slap on to these things.

If part of mind appears totally unconscious then we needs to become conscious of each-other - connect. How to do that one can practice on hand. Everything related to consciousness can be practiced on with consciousnesses in hand, things like jhanas, cessation, etc. I consider having given skill if I can at least can instantly do something it in my hand - like if I could not move my hand I wouldn't say I can move it and likewise if I could not experience hand consciousness in some arbitrary jhana I wouldn't say I know jhanas.

So when we know how to make consciousness conscious of us then only part of the equation is finding part of the mind which isn't active and would want to play with running some electricity through it. Specific type of consciousness in inactive parts of mind is part of 7th jhana experience - it feels completely static. Active consciousness can interact with inactive parts of mind through it to query consciousnesses without waking them up yet. Query mostly for if they would like to be active in this and that role. These can be parts of mind which never did and in this case they will not immediately know how to do it but that's fine when we can afford it. More specifically when certain level of performance we expect from pre-trained consciousness is not required e.g. when operating heavy machinery. Not even because there is faculty loss (its still much better performance than using tired neurons!) but I am mentioning this because vast majority of times it couldn't really cause any issues whatsoever even if using completely new mind for some faculty because in our today's world we are generally very safe. Anyways, parts of mind engaging with new activities always have very specific feeling to it - its the same experience as path fruition.

Now for technical difficulties: It might be hard to disengage running mind because there are signal flows that need to be constantly (read in pulses - so from time to time) handled so consciousnesses which currently engaged in handling these signals cannot just stop and disengage. Best workaround for that is to make new part of mind starting picking activity more actively. As this happens it might cause specific blip when part of mind blanks out. It means nothing except not doing it correctly as it should be smooth sailing without sudden drops caused by signal collisions. One should certainly not optimize for such things as blips. It doesn't matter however for a long as consciousnesses did their dance and what before active now is resting and what wasn't is now part of an active mind. If that didn't happen then it wasn't done correctly.

Because everything about this process is agreed upon in mind it can be made to look fancier like having some specific signal to drive the switch so e.g. prepare everything beforehand and then make actual switch in one moment and its done in one instant. If doing it that way best to not get confused. There isn't any signal which does anything. It only does when agreed upon within the mind. This process of agreement can vary and doesn't even always require much active consciousness of this kind. A lot of the time what we consider consciousness is barely having any. It is good to know and be mindful of it... mindfulness BTW is being conscious and not operating on predetermined impulses. Not that neurons usually care for as long as they get enough food and sleep if they run some reality tunnels or something because these are usually okay. It is however causing whole lot of issues doing if without at least from time to time being conscious of each part of the mind and everything all at once. They, consciousnesses have even more fun when they aren't confused what is what.

Anyways, so that is how I practiced that stuff. Also why no dedicated practices for it. When there is tired consciousness in sight its responsibility of everyone in my mind to do something with it. They know its good system for them ;)

Consciousness = Mindfulness,
Ni
Olivier S, modified 2 Months ago at 4/29/24 5:11 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/29/24 5:11 PM

RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 969 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta
... If part of mind appears totally unconscious then we needs to become conscious of each-other - connect. How to do that one can practice on hand. Everything related to consciousness can be practiced on with consciousnesses in hand, things like jhanas, cessation, etc. I consider having given skill if I can at least can instantly do something it in my hand - like if I could not move my hand I wouldn't say I can move it and likewise if I could not experience hand consciousness in some arbitrary jhana I wouldn't say I know jhanas. ...
That sounds delirious to me, can you please reformulate?
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Pawel K, modified 2 Months ago at 5/5/24 9:39 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/5/24 9:39 AM

RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Delirious in what way?
Hand has consciousness so all the experiential things that any consciousness can do experience also be experienced in hand. Maybe for not all things hand is the best suited but that is the point. There needs to be understanding so deep within mind that even hand can do it.

Say 1st jhana - if I can induce 1st jhana in my hand then my mind obviously knows 1st jhana.
Even better if in other hand I can do different jhana. Makes skill more meaningful.
What is experience of hand anyways?
Its a moment in which awareness of hand consciousness arise.

If you train not entering jhana as if there was anyone to enter anything but as consciousness arising with characteristics of given jhanic state then when it is being experienced it will have these characteristics.

To have experience of jhana in hand can also be done when using typical way mind synchronizes its activity but it is woefully unpractical for that kinds of things and meditation in general. Rather than making the whole mass of activity happen all at once its better to split activity to many separate arising. In this case for hand to be the only thing arising at the moment hand is experienced. That is called right concentration. Otherwise the whole mass of activity would pretty much need to be certain jhana and in this case it makes some sense to say that "we enter jhana". Personally I don't use that faculty since almost two decades so I don't practice it at all. If anything I wanted to make experience of hand have more oomh it wouldn't be through this normal mind template but more like having even more consciousnesses arise at the same time but also related to single faculty and its consciousness. That trick can be done using synchronization - which would feel like given jhana in case of jhanas but even wider - or be allowed to not synchronize - in which case I call it as not keeping coherence which doesn't necessarily feel like any jhana arising from concentration and has somewhat shimmering in different colors and expressions of the same thing appearance with some differences being result of arising in noisy environment caused by other similar consciousnesses. That last trick is very pleasant but can use up all the available neuron resources. Its not necessarily related to case where consciousness is directly connected and can works for any configuration of consciousnesses.

BTW. In any case anyone reading my posts: I didn't practice by reading stuff in book. I have my conscious mind to practice with, don't need dharma for that. Besides its what being Stream Enterer is about.
Also when I use term "control" its not one part of mind controlling the other. Even if given mind state (e.g. when I am trying to experience something specific) requires unconsciousness its usually something specific it does and the 'control' in this case is just consciously (read: connecting consciousnesses to make one bigger consciousness) doing something including setting it to behave in specific way through the conscious choice and then choosing for part of mind to turn back on itself (so become "unconscious" of conscious mind) and then react in specific way to specific signals. Its how mind-state visualization is done.

If anything trying to condition mind through some silly practices on repeat is closer to trying to control oneself but doing it in very unsophisticated way. I always found it funny when people who advocate these ascetic practices accused me of talking about advocating exerting control. I guess one could read it like that when I shorten it to just saying that one should make this do that and that other thing something else but I always in each case mean to do it consciously.
One can do it without so much emphasis on consciousness when it has been done many times already and I admit that at times I kinda forget this 'step' after it 'just works' without it but my mind sooner or later reminds itself to not be treated like an item. My mind... I mean neurons, the little delirious sentient beings emoticon
Olivier S, modified 2 Months ago at 5/5/24 12:17 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/5/24 12:10 PM

RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 969 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
  Apologies for the harsh language but I felt you could take it and for some reason it felt called for emoticon emoticon ;) 

I'm gonna point to the parts of your quote in my last post that I have diffculty understanding : not trying to be a pain in the ass, I just wonder why someone would write so much without wanting to be understood, and so I assume that is your intention, so, letting you know the languaging here is not working for me. Unless it's on purpose, in which case I will stop reading your messages to avoid frustration, but please let me know emoticon 

... If part of mind appears totally unconscious

What is a part of mind? What is it like, experientially, what phenomenon does this refer to? Could you describe using other words? That something can "appear" and yet be "totally unconscious" is at odds with my own understanding of the word "conscious". "Appearing" to me implies a "consciousness" which is actually the phenomenal substance of the phenomenon arising. Unconscious in what way? What is it like in your experience, when a part of mind appears totally unconscious?

then we needs to become conscious of each-other - connect.

Grammar?

And: Who or what needs to become conscious of what and how? How do you connect? What connects to what? How can something be conscious of something else or connect? Does it mean to become aware, or pay attention, or bring mindfulness, to a sensation or phenomenon that was not being clearly/mindfully perceived?

How to do that one can practice on hand. Everything related to consciousness can be practiced on with consciousnesses in hand, things like jhanas, cessation, etc. I consider having given skill if I can at least can instantly do something it in my hand - like if I could not move my hand I wouldn't say I can move it and likewise if I could not experience hand consciousness in some arbitrary jhana I wouldn't say I know jhanas. ...

What is hand consciousness? What is it like to experience hand consciousness in some arbitrary jhana? 

My theories about bit (1) : At the end of your post, you write "consciousness=mindfulness", so I feel like what you are saying is "if some phenomenon arises without there being mindfulness of it", which seems straightforward enough, but am not sure, as then why would you describe something in these terms?

And re quote (3): If consciousness=mindfulness then this sounds off. To me, "hand" is a gestalt, a phenomenon with various sensate and mental components to it, such as tactile, visual, and kinesthetic sensations, potentially even taste, smell, depending on what's going on, mental visual imagery, spatial representations, a part of the body schema at a given moment, etc., and it is also the referent associated with a specific name (or several: hand in english, main in french, etc.), and a sort of non-verbal mental concept of "hand" which might be called "interpretant" in semiotics parlance, I guess — a phenomenon composed of nama and rupa, name and form, or sensate stuff and mental stuff (I use mental to mean the mental sense door), which incidentally according to some, is a precondition for the arising of "consciousness", which is itself a precondition for the arising of nama-rupa. Speaking in terms of dependent origination. So, can't find an object "hand" apart from hand consciousness when looking, and yet the phenomenon "hand" manifests: rainbow, emptiness, etc. It feels like what you're getting at might be that it is then possible to use the malleability of perception that comes from insight into these components and training in the ability to "tweak" mindstates, to then voluntarily manipulate (etymology, the word comes from "hand", manus, btw ;)), how the phenomenon "hand" manifests, e.g., influence its "dependent origination" so that it appears with various qualities that can be considered "jhanic", e.g., bliss, rapture, neutralness, sense of space, sense of absence, stuff like that. Is that it?

edited for clarity and to add: our bodies have immune, hormonal, digestive, cardiovascular, metabolic, and various other systems... Which it may be interesting to explore as possible underlying physiology of mind, if you're gonna go the physical reductionism way emoticon
  
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terry, modified 2 Months ago at 5/5/24 1:47 PM
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RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 2595 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta

when pondering how to do cessation of this whole mass of suffering that exist 

Maybe as a last thing I mention pink elephant in the room: sense of self.



The sense of self is inextricably connected - linked - to the whole mass of suffering. One coes not "do" cessation.

Sense of self ceases with the whole mass of suffering.



The sense of self is never enlightened, never attains...it can only cease.


The sufis say, "die before you die."



Dukkha is of course linked to the sense of self as two of the three marks of existence.
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terry, modified 2 Months ago at 5/5/24 2:06 PM
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RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 2595 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta

Consciousness = Mindfulness,
Ni

it might be said that consciousness and mindfulness are inversely related...
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terry, modified 2 Months ago at 5/5/24 2:13 PM
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RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 2595 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta


BTW. In any case anyone reading my posts: I didn't practice by reading stuff in book. I have my conscious mind to practice with, don't need dharma for that. Besides its what being Stream Enterer is about.




people who live in glass houses...
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Pawel K, modified 2 Months ago at 5/5/24 3:17 PM
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RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Olivier S
Unless it's on purpose, in which case I will stop reading your messages to avoid frustration, but please let me know emoticon

Why would anyone have such purpose?
I put considerable amount of effort in to trying to be clearly understood and often explain each term, what it means and at times etymology of the label if its not self-explanatory. My skills might be inadequate to describe this topic in clearly understood way. Complexity of the topic isn't justification and just reason to try harder. In other words just do it and improve while driving.

What is a part of mind? What is it like, experientially, what phenomenon does this refer to? Could you describe using other words? That something can "appear" and yet be "totally unconscious" is at odds with my own understanding of the word "conscious". "Appearing" to me implies a "consciousness" which is actually the phenomenal substance of the phenomenon arising. Unconscious in what way? What is it like in your experience, when a part of mind appears totally unconscious?

Ok so unconscious it would be like if you and your wife talked for an hour and after an hour of talking she realized you were not listening about the single world she said after "and then we went with my girl friends to shopping mall...". You were in this case unconscious - probably to protect your sanity. This example is double funny but I won't say why.
Same can be said for other direction - if you talk to someone and they don't really seem to respond in how you would consider conscious person to respond. In mind its really this numb sensation that comprises all of experience. Here I am suggesting it doesn't need to feel that way.

In mind it gets a little bit more complicated because the assertion is that consciousness just is - its some kind of phenomena that exists and its single and personal with mind not having any minds that are separate from it. Here I don't imply your body has mind of its own and if anything it is actually unconscious mind that could be characterized as having separate mind should it start doing things which you would not expect. If it does things you expect or can justify as done by you then it feels normal, as part of you. There literally is mechanism in our mind called sense of self to facilitate describing what we do in a somewhat coherent story. It can work to such a degree that patients with split-brain would justify their part they are not aware of as if these were their actions.

Ok but what is part of the mind and how one can start noticing something is up... mind made from some 'parts'?
Well, its usually not as clear we have parts because typically we synchronize activity within our brain in such a way that it hides actual complexity. It is clearer things are separate when you can address them separately - you need right concentration for that. In case of concentration practices it would be like if you had to concentrate on object but didn't even attempt at having this image of you concentrating on object but having experience of object arise completely separately and nothing else arose at this moment. As the word "moment" suggests its about things arising separately for a moment. If this is made in to a practice then the goal would be to optimize for these single moments where attention and object are one and the same - just not as something to notice but just have arise when you choose so it should arise and in this moment there should be absolutely nothing else.

Now if you use this type of concentration where things can arise separately to observe your conscious experiences then when these moments where concentration is really good you will notice how each faculty has its own consciousness. I could also say that experience is the same as consciousness but I won't say it because its more complicated than that and this reference is loaded. I don't like loaded references because they distract from the topic at hand.

Parts of mind/brain/etc:
Out minds are not monolithic and are made from smaller parts and these parts are made from smaller parts down to individual neurons. If you experience hand as the only consciousness within the mind at the moment it arises and then experience some other faculty then it should be quite clear these are not the same consciousnesses. Here in this topic especially but also in general when I write posts when I refer to parts of brain/mind I often mean consciousnesses which are the same faculty but somehow copies of each-other but which are still separate. We don't have one part of brain for one faculty. Its rather we have multiple possible consciousnesses which could arise for given faculty (unless its something very new like just learning new skill) and in normal operation if you were to continuously need to use this faculty they would play tag team and switch on you. This is why when we learn new ability it can be like we can start doing it pretty good and after a while we suck at it again and at times even after we are pretty good but practice for a longer while it can feel like something inside forgot what it was supposed to do. In the last case its not that we forgot - we might never actually knew with this part of our brain how to do it.

To sum it up consciousnesses I am referring to are the consciousnesses which arise when they arise as the only thing in your conscious experience. You need good concentration for that where I don't refer to ability to stay on object for long as good concentration but ability to make things arise in separation from everything else. It requires some practice and the practice is very straightforward in that there is nothing to "do" other than do what needs to be done and it is nothing *you* need to do as in when you start your practice (can be always in any situation really because why would it need special conditions - but you can also practice it on cushion) you might choose some faculty and somehow convince your brain to make it arise alone without *you*. Here practical consideration - do not try to make whatever consciousness you point to arise as it is within your current experience as this is vipassana and not shamatha. Why is that I shouldn't go now but let's say its different skill, much harder and done for different purpose. Instead when e.g. practicing with hands you should aim at some consciousness. As long as its hand its good. It is especially important in the larger context of having all these redundant consciousness play tag team and change from time to time.

Grammar?

And: Who or what needs to become conscious of what and how? How do you connect? What connects to what? How can something be conscious of something else or connect?

Typo, yes.

When you can experience consciousness as separate, the only thing in mind but then compare to how normal mind seems you could then deduce that the so called normal mind is in some sense composite of multiple consciousnesses and these can have some relation to each-other while they are arising. Practices one could do would be to try to have more than one consciousness arise at the same time and check what relations they can have. With just one consciousness it will always feel in some sense like your normal consciousness... and here the issue: what part of normal consciousness is the part which feels like that? To know that one needs to experience much simpler consciousness arise separately and then its easier. Anyways, with two its possible to have them both arise as unity - completely merged. Or one or the other can arise as something that responds to the other consciousness. I call them driver type and executor. Driver would be the one which seems more conscious - and for this example with two consciousnesses as assuming role of main consciousness for this moment. There are different ways they can connect and its possible to have two separate executors which are executor or executors connected to itself and none of then necessarily seems like any of them being anything you could call does main consciousness.

...and its this complexity which complicates things and makes them confusing until its realized in more details. Even with single consciousness this can happen. There are different ways these things arise. And in fact for the so called normal mind its exactly the same. In fact good attainment would be to make it so you can have whole field as Daniel puts it be conscious of itself and each-other in fluid fashion. The less rigidity there the better.

Does it mean to become aware, or pay attention, or bring mindfulness, to a sensation or phenomenon that was not being clearly/mindfully perceived?

To become conscious of how to be conscious - which is being mindful - there is nothing specific to pay attention to other than consciousnesses and how they arise, how they can relate and how they seem to affect each-other when they relate in different way.

What is hand consciousness? What is it like to experience hand consciousness in some arbitrary jhana?

Like I wrote above its consciousness which arise when its experience of hand which arise as only consciousness in your mind. Its obvious its consciousness when it feels more like when someone asked you "Are you conscious?" the first thing your attention would fall on. Less obvious when its not feeling like that and more like experience but which is more like experience - more like but it will still be more obvious its consciousness. If it didn't become clear its pretty much what Daniel was saying about things being where they are arising with some kind of knowledge of themselves built-in. Here I assert one can practice it implicitly. There will me moments of clarity. Attainment is just having it as absolute default with anything like normal mind being something you can make consciously arise for a moment. Hence the flipping of perception.

Jhana feels exactly like if you were in jhana and did this experience of hand arising as the only thing. The novelty in my approach is perhaps in the fact you can work on object (in this case it would be consciousness of hand but it could be consciousness of object) implicitly - as the practice directly. In fact the way I think one should practice shamatha is to make consciousness of object jhanic and best 2nd jhana or above. I mean 1st jhana arise due to sustained effort - it is possible to have it with its very characteristic effects by having the sustained effort in the consciousness which arises but if the goal is for mind to stay on object 2nd jhana is about the best starting point. Now you don't need sustained effort to have jhana if you have right concentration - can make consciousness arise completely separately. Jhanas after all are just using multiple copies of given faculty (be it hand or consciousnesses of object you use for shamatha) with specific to 2nd jhana configuration of consciousnesses.

Now which configuration is that... It is not rigid and more fluid in how they organize their own 'configuration' (btw. even to me calling this here as configuration is silly but for the sake of description...) here I'd call mostly "facing itself" gives this type of experience as 2nd jhana.

Since this requires having skills which arise from practicing in that way it might not be the most stellar description of practice. In practice you just try to not experience hand as part of normal mind but have it as separate as possible. Jhanas you can experience when you take experience of hand - doesn't need to be super pure at this point - and kinda try to find jhanic experience of hand. Its not the experience you have but some other already existing experience of hand than feels "jhanic" with the jhana here not necessarily defined as in specific jhana but can just be something that feels more natural. Just doing it like that makes this experience of hand - its consciousness - arise much more (or already completely) purely with only this jhanic collection of hand consciousnesses being what is in mind. It is rather from here where you make it specific jhanic state by being more specific in configurations of consciousnesses. In practice if you experienced given jhana its quite easy to consciously wiggle things around within consciousnesses to arrive at specific jhana. Keep in mind that while I am talking separate consciousness arise it all happen in real-time as you are practicing so other parts of your mind (other consciousnesses) also play with this and connect to conscousnesses you are working with.

My theories about bit (1) : At the end of your post, you write "consciousness=mindfulness", so I feel like what you are saying is "if some phenomenon arises without there being mindfulness of it", which seems straightforward enough, but am not sure, as then why would you describe something in these terms?

Mind can have parts of it operate with very little consciousness in very rigid way.
Notice how I am always referring to some modes of consciousnesses but also stressing how them being 'fluid' is important as a way to it being more meaningful consciousness. Mind which is like water (as Bruce Lee put it) is it, mindfulness.

And re quote (3): If consciousness=mindfulness then this sounds off. To me, "hand" is a gestalt, a phenomenon with various sensate and mental components to it, such as tactile, visual, and kinesthetic sensations, potentially even taste, smell, depending on what's going on, mental visual imagery, spatial representations, a part of the body schema at a given moment, etc., and it is also the referent associated with a specific name (or several: hand in english, main in french, etc.), and a sort of non-verbal mental concept of "hand" which might be called "interpretant" in semiotics parlance, I guess — a phenomenon composed of nama and rupa, name and form, or sensate stuff and mental stuff (I use mental to mean the mental sense door), which incidentally according to some, is a precondition for the arising of "consciousness", which is itself a precondition for the arising of nama-rupa. Speaking in terms of dependent origination. So, can't find an object "hand" apart from hand consciousness when looking, and yet the phenomenon "hand" manifests: rainbow, emptiness, etc. It feels like what you're getting at might be that it is then possible to use the malleability of perception that comes from insight into these components and training in the ability to "tweak" mindstates, to then voluntarily manipulate (etymology, the word comes from "hand", manus, btw ;)), how the phenomenon "hand" manifests, e.g., influence its "dependent origination" so that it appears with various qualities that can be considered "jhanic", e.g., bliss, rapture, neutralness, sense of space, sense of absence, stuff like that. Is that it?

Yes, experience of hand is composed of multiple consciousnesses. Many many consciousnesses.
As someone who made visual consciousnesses mix with other sense modalities by having these consciousnesses arise together in various configurations I know ;)
Its really you as hand's owner who pick what about hand you choose for practice with consciousnesses - I merely pointed to hand because I was practicing "closer to home" and found it harder to get some realizations about how it all can be done and work than when I started doing more with hands as some sort of additional practice and verification of things to do with consciousnesses. My primary playfield was eyesight and causing changes in visual perception. Vision itself much more interconnected to everything (especially when I interconnected it even more) than hand. Hand is easier to practice with.
I would at a time e.g. practice not experiencing my hand and even when I purposefully pressed it in to a table. It is possible to do something similar with eyesight - though I never managed to and didn't even attempt to do fully cause visual feed to just end. It always felt I should but I didn't practice with my eyes all of the things I did with hand also because hand just feels much easier and safer to practice with. Easier than some arbitrary object to induce jhana and sustain it. Of course to train for excellence its good to practice with various consciousnesses - especially when you feel them lacking

edited for clarity and to add: our bodies have immune, hormonal, digestive, cardiovascular, metabolic, and various other systems... Which it may be interesting to explore as possible underlying physiology of mind, if you're gonna go the physical reductionism way emoticon

Some of these you can even find consciousness of. Like consciousness that you can secrete endorphins with or other endogen-something that feels like amphetamine (it so happens I know how it feels ... like so much so it feels it actually is the same thing and just in one case forced by external means (in arbitrary unhealthy amounts depending on dose + lots of additional unpleasant stimulation) and in other something which just responsible for some effects, cannot be done too much and it still feels somewhat strange to do. Anyways, these things are also a thing ;)

BTW. This consciosuness thing is pretty much how I always practiced and those would be most of my practices. Perhaps at times dwelling in this stuff too much as a kind of solution to issues and eventually I had to rely on good old POI to sort my brain and consciousnesses out in - do less, observe more fashion which at some point I kinda forgot to do. But still all the insight I got was all worth it and eventually as I experienced some cycles and tried some things which actually worked I really just stopped this cycling nonsense and stabilized my mind and moved to working with my mind in less "let's try this see what it does..." way and more in just first making sure all consciousness feel nice with themselves and at times even kinda forcefully causing cessations if negotiations failed due to everything being just too engangled. Even this involved consciousness and decisions of some kind happening within them. Whatever I did I tried to be as conscious as possible versus just going with what works even if some actions did seem to work - I would stop using them to prefer consciousness. Did some more practices, some even of Mahasi Noting, but mostly to get idea what happens in mind to cultivate it and had amazing results with this approach. Took me in total around decade to get 4th path including everything but it never felt I was missing anything from it so I'd say complete. I had some development afterwards related to consciousnesses but nothing really that important. There are still things I haven't clearly defined as my goal is to be able to describe this stuff.

Hopefully in a way which elicit better responses than "I didn't understand word of what you were saying" which is common reaction to my posts. The thing is that I cannot imagine practice that doesn't involve consciousnesses and working with them directly. It was my assumption it is how I should practice after reading some suttas and some other dharma articles. It was like hearing one thing and thinking "so that person said this because of that and that but if he meant this and this then it would make hella lot more sense and could be justified by this and that". In case of Buddha mostly because he was working with ascetes he had to spin the whole thing around in such a a way to not get people distracted by all the complexity of mind.

BTW. Imho Nibbana is mode of consciousnesses too, based on dispassion. Not aversion, not avoidance but also not passion for activity. Its much easier to do in this 'right concentration' mode than on whole mind as it is.
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Pawel K, modified 2 Months ago at 5/7/24 4:45 PM
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RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
There is some truth in that my self cannot be enlightened... after all how can it be enlightened if it is the light itself. You know, the brilliant light of universal consciousness emoticon

Mindfulness and consciousness being inversely related... yeah, that is why I am self taught. Self taught... get it? emoticon
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago at 5/7/24 5:46 PM
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RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 2926 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
I hate to be the party pooper but emoticon Santa is not real! emoticon 

Mindfulness and Consciousness is a fabrication. Its not a be-all end-all of anything. anything. thing. ...
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Pawel K, modified 2 Months ago at 5/9/24 4:48 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/9/24 4:48 PM

RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Consciousness is not be-all end-all of anything and more like be-all connect-all to everything.

As for consciousness being fabrication... technically all experiences are fabricated but what is the point you are trying to make?

The point I am trying to make if there is any its that: we don't have any idea how to use basic faculties of body/mind/soul until we put time and effort learning how to use them and this would even include things like consciousness...

...but of course after attaining 4th path aka "Awakening" the consciousness is at its peak top form, right? right?

What Path the Universe is at again?
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terry, modified 2 Months ago at 5/9/24 5:16 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/9/24 5:16 PM

RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 2595 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta
There is some truth in that my self cannot be enlightened... after all how can it be enlightened if it is the light itself. You know, the brilliant light of universal consciousness emoticon

Mindfulness and consciousness being inversely related... yeah, that is why I am self taught. Self taught... get it? emoticon


   My point about consciousness and mindfulness is that the awareness has a certain polarity. Mindfulness is more passive, receiving, while consciousness is more active, penetrating. The three terms may be regarded as equivalent and often are but I find it useful to explore the analogies of light and seeing, Consciousness in phenomenology is intentional, we pay attention deliberately to items of interest. Mindfulness is a general awareness of what is going on using peripheral senses as well as active ones. This is analogous to macular and peripheral vision. 

   Using visual metaphors the more interesting question arises, what is light?

   Self taught... reminds me of the idea that the universe is supported on the back of a great turtle. On what is th great turtle resting?
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terry, modified 2 Months ago at 5/9/24 8:50 PM
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RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 2595 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta
The point I am trying to make if there is any its that: we don't have any idea how to use basic faculties of body/mind/soul until we put time and effort learning how to use them and this would even include things like consciousness...




There is no one to use such faculties, no user, no consumer, no subject, no soul, self, personality or liver of life.

You don't need to have ideas about how your hand works to make a fist.


When we say, "use your eyes" we don't mean to manipulate them but to wake up.

You are putting another head on top of your head, the sufis would say,
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terry, modified 2 Months ago at 5/9/24 5:30 PM
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RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 2595 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko
I hate to be the party pooper but emoticon Santa is not real! emoticon 

Mindfulness and Consciousness is a fabrication. Its not a be-all end-all of anything. anything. thing. ...


putting party poop in your stocking, and chris' tp
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terry, modified 2 Months ago at 5/10/24 1:36 PM
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RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 2595 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta
Consciousness is not be-all end-all of anything and more like be-all connect-all to everything.

As for consciousness being fabrication... technically all experiences are fabricated but what is the point you are trying to make?

The point I am trying to make if there is any its that: we don't have any idea how to use basic faculties of body/mind/soul until we put time and effort learning how to use them and this would even include things like consciousness...

...but of course after attaining 4th path aka "Awakening" the consciousness is at its peak top form, right? right?

What Path the Universe is at again?


Reading the occasional book can help us remember ideas, and see how others have thought about the same.

Schelling's discussion of "conscious" and "unconscious" intelligence is relevant here. The conscious being what we call consciousness and the unconscious being mindfulness.




INTRODUCTION TO THE OUTLINE OF A
SYSTEM OF THE PHILOSOPHY OF
NATURE, OR, ON THE CONCEPT OF
SPECULATIVE PHYSICS AND THE
INTERNAL ORGANIZATION OF A
SYSTEM OF THIS SCIENCE (1799)

§.1.
What we call Philosophy of Nature is a Necessary Science in the System of Knowledge.

The intelligence is productive in two modes: either blindly and unconsciously, or freely and consciously; it is unconsciously productive in external
intuition, consciously in the creation of an ideal world.
Philosophy removes this distinction by assuming the unconscious activity to be originally identical with, and, as it were, sprung from the same root as
the conscious. This identity is directly proved in the case of an activity at once
clearly conscious and unconscious, which manifests itself in the productions of
genius; indirectly, outside of consciousness, in the products of Nature, so far as in
all of them the most complete fusion of the ideal and the real is perceived.
Since philosophy assumes the unconscious, or as it may likewise be
termed, the real activity to be identical with the conscious or ideal, its tendency
will be to bring back everywhere the real to the ideal—a process which gives rise
to what is called transcendental philosophy. The regularity displayed in all the
movements of Nature—for example, the sublime geometry which is exercised in
the motions of the heavenly bodies—is not explained by saying that Nature is the most perfect geometry. Rather conversely, it is explained by saying that
the most perfect geometry is the productive power in Nature; a mode of explanation whereby the real itself is transported into the ideal world, and those
motions are changed into intuitions which take place only in ourselves, and to
which nothing outside of us corresponds. Again, the fact that Nature, wherever
it is left to itself, in every transition from a fluid to a solid state, produces of its
own accord, as it were, regular forms (a regularity which, in the higher species of
crystallization, namely the organic, seems even to become purposefulness); or
the fact that in the animal kingdom (that product of the blind forces of Nature)
we see actions arise which are equal in regularity to those that take place with
consciousness, and even external works of art, perfect in their kind—all of this is
explained in our view by saying that it is an unconscious productivity in its origin akin to the conscious, whose mere reflection we see in Nature, and which
from the standpoint of the natural view must appear as one and the same blind
drive that exerts its influence from crystallization upward to the highest point of
organic formation (in which, on one side, through the technical drive, it returns
again to mere crystallization) only acting on different planes.
According to this view, since Nature is only the visible organism of our
understanding, Nature can produce nothing but what shows regularity and purpose, and Nature is compelled to produce it. But if Nature can produce only the
regular, and produces it from necessity, it follows that the origin of such regular and purposeful products must again be capable of being proved to be necessary in the relation of its forces, in Nature thought as independent and real—it
follows that therefore, conversely, the ideal must arise out of the real and admit of
explanation from it.

Now if it is the task of transcendental philosophy to subordinate the real
to the ideal, it is, on the other hand, the task of the philosophy of nature to explain the ideal by the real. The two sciences are therefore but one science, differentiated only in the opposite orientation of their tasks. Moreover, as the two directions are not only equally possible, but equally necessary, the
same necessity attaches to both in the system of knowledge.
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Pawel K, modified 2 Months ago at 5/10/24 3:06 PM
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RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
terry
There is no one to use such faculties, no user, no consumer, no subject, no soul, self, personality or liver of life.

Even though I think therapists are a scam people who think they don't exist need to see one ASAP!!!1

Besides...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2QJvc_SxFQ
Do you, terry, wear enough hats? emoticon

You don't need to have ideas about how your hand works to make a fist.

Splendid. This is supposed to say what exactly?

That (still non-existing XD) person makes fist it means that there is no need to train faculties?
Does it mean I can also e.g. play piano without having put hard work in to learning how to move my hand/fingers on the keyboard?
Last time I checked I couldn't. All I could do is incoherent cacophony of sounds and not real music so apparently other than clenching and unclenching hands person cannot do much without training hands.

This is hand. We learn them over time. Why do we learn? Proper feedback.
Make something invisible with not as clearly felt responses and it might very well be you never learn how to use given faculty. Or you do manage to clench it but don't manage to unclench it. And then through your whole life you have faculty you don't use, don't know that you have or what it could be useful for and just clench it causing yourself suffering.

Isn't basic idea about meditation attainments to unclench stuff?
Wouldn't it make more sense for attainment to be being able to consciously use such faculties?

When we say, "use your eyes" we don't mean to manipulate them but to wake up.

Ah but I do nothing else than train my eyes.

How do I train my eyes?
My eyes train me - that is how I train my eyes.

You are putting another head on top of your head, the sufis would say,

I don't know who this Sufis guy is and I don't entirely agree with him but I see his opinions are very important to you. I respect that.

Anyways, I don't leave development of my soul to chance.
How do I do development of my soul?
Also when it comes to hats because obviously its more important topic - hats
The more the merrier.
The minimum amount of of openness to the new ideas have people who have acquired just one single hat. They are on top of the world, have complete knowledge of mind and in general are most likely to use term "awakening" even if their developments have nothing to do with consciousness.

Now my hope is people will think this of myself. I want it!
Why? Contrast.
Contrast is part of fidelity. I like fidelity. That is why I practice perception and not consciousness/mindfulness.
Consciousness is just a side-effect of good perception.

So objections Sufis made (or rather "would make" ;)) are found on wrong assumptions.
Like if I didn't know that if I practiced consciousness by itself I would sooner or later get completely delusional kinda like if I only did ascetism. I still do some directed practices on consciousness, just like I do some ascetism. Everything can be helpful in practice. Key is to find right balance - and the right balance doesn't mean 'equal' but according to right weights that bring best results. That is how I develop my consciousness/mindfulness.
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Pawel K, modified 2 Months ago at 5/11/24 4:17 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/11/24 4:17 AM

RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Reading the occasional book can help us remember ideas, and see how others have thought about the same.

You mean to do comparison between books? Sounds boring.
Why even bother? We have dedicated language model AIs for that.

Schelling's discussion of "conscious" and "unconscious" intelligence is relevant here. The conscious being what we call consciousness and the unconscious being mindfulness.

Yeah I know people are not conscious in this hellhole. I only hoped they are because simulations looked promising.
unconscious being mindfulness that actually explains a lot even if its meaningful coming from zombie. Thanks "terry".

I guess this project has failed too. Needs to be scrapped and different concepts should be tried instead. As I have been warned...
Maybe some things can be saved. Certain generated designs are pretty cool.
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terry, modified 2 Months ago at 5/11/24 8:17 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/11/24 8:17 PM

RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 2595 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta
terry
There is no one to use such faculties, no user, no consumer, no subject, no soul, self, personality or liver of life.

Even though I think therapists are a scam people who think they don't exist need to see one ASAP!!!1

The fact that I don't exist doesn't make me any less real.


Do you, terry, wear enough hats?
emoticon

I find them a distraction.





You don't need to have ideas about how your hand works to make a fist.

Splendid. This is supposed to say what exactly?


   This you want explained?

   You speak of directing mental processes as though they were under the control of a self-directed will. An educated, experienced will which understnds how to operate the machinery of consciousness to achieve desirable objectives. Aside from the unlikelihood of such an achievement, the way I see it this is analogpus to trying to, say, walk, by thinking about how and where to place each limb. There was the yogi berra story about trying to think while also trying to hit a baseball.



That (still non-existing XD) person makes fist it means that there is no need to train faculties?

   Not through thinkig about it. This is why we refer to practice and training in physical terms, as exercise, rather thn as indoctrination or systematized learning. You don't make a buddha by polishing a tile.

Does it mean I can also e.g. play piano without having put hard work in to learning how to move my hand/fingers on the keyboard?

   
Are you working or playing? Make up your mind.

   I think it is dangerous to take one's mind in hand and deliberately condition it as though you understood everything and had a manual or map. I think the mind has capacities far greater than anything you can think of, capacities anyone can tap and use. By letting them free, not by conditioning or dictating. Creativity made room for through emptying the mind. The mind as a swept and garnished room.


Last time I checked I couldn't. All I could do is incoherent cacophony of sounds and not real music so apparently other than clenching and unclenching hands person cannot do much without training hands.

   Ask your self if you are doing real philosophy or real spirituaity now. Is this not noise?

This is hand. We learn them over time. Why do we learn? Proper feedback.

So learn.

Make something invisible with not as clearly felt responses and it might very well be you never learn how to use given faculty. Or you do manage to clench it but don't manage to unclench it. And then through your whole life you have faculty you don't use, don't know that you have or what it could be useful for and just clench it causing yourself suffering.

As though life were a clench and all we need to do is relax, don't worry, be happy.

The bodhisattva suffers willingly. Comradery with all sufferers. We know what it is like to be kind, and to be hurt. We suffer with.


Isn't basic idea about meditation attainments to unclench stuff?

ummm...no? (what stuff!)

Wouldn't it make more sense for attainment to be being able to consciously use such faculties?


This is where you put another head on top of your head. You seem to want to consciously manipulate processes which already work fine in a healthy sentient being. Leave them be, all you can do is fuck them up. That is what meditation is all about.


When we say, "use your eyes" we don't mean to manipulate them but to wake up.

Ah but I do nothing else than train my eyes.

   
Perhaps all you are doing is straining yur eyes.

   You should write a book.


How do I train my eyes?
My eyes train me - that is how I train my eyes.

The eyes have it. That's how I train my eyes too.



You are putting another head on top of your head, the sufis would say,

I don't know who this Sufis guy is and I don't entirely agree with him but I see his opinions are very important to you. I respect that.


(bows)

There are a lot of people whose views I respect because they know what I know only better. The rest know what I know only worse, and I respect that too.

Anyways, I don't leave development of my soul to chance.

Ah, my friend, you fnally said something disheartening, that makes me sad. Leaving the development of your soul to chance is a definiton of enlightenment. It is ego that cannot be trusted.

How do I do development of my soul?

By not doing, that is, meditating. 


Also when it comes to hats because obviously its more important topic - hats
The more the merrier.
The minimum amount of of openness to the new ideas have people who have acquired just one single hat.


Vanity of vanities...

new ideas are old hat. It has all been thunk already. New words is all. Join the prosers in your house of glass.

They are on top of the world, have complete knowledge of mind and in general are most likely to use term "awakening" even if their developments have nothing to do with consciousness.


I think the term "developments" is presumptuous. People mature, or they don't. An acorn falls to the ground. Maybe it grows into a huge tree, or maybe it doesn't. It doesn't take anything special to be a good person. When we  speak of training, we mean more "detraining" or deconditioning. Perhps that is your "declenching" idea though tying it to muscle tension is lame.


Now my hope is people will think this of myself. I want it!

This also is sad. I don't like to disappoint you.

Why? Contrast.
Contrast is part of fidelity. I like fidelity. That is why I practice perception and not consciousness/mindfulness.
Consciousness is just a side-effect of good perception.


Perception and consciousness are one phenomenon.



So objections Sufis made (or rather "would make" ;)) are found on wrong assumptions.
Like if I didn't know that if I practiced consciousness by itself I would sooner or later get completely delusional kinda like if I only did ascetism. I still do some directed practices on consciousness, just like I do some ascetism. Everything can be helpful in practice. Key is to find right balance - and the right balance doesn't mean 'equal' but according to right weights that bring best results. That is how I develop my consciousness/mindfulness.

By an intuitive sense a person finds the right balance, you are perhaps saying? We have a natural balance, homeostasis, conatus. Let it be.
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terry, modified 2 Months ago at 5/11/24 8:34 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/11/24 8:34 PM

RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 2595 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta
Reading the occasional book can help us remember ideas, and see how others have thought about the same.

You mean to do comparison between books? Sounds boring.

Like comparing your concepts and methods to others we might use?
​​​​​​​

Why even bother? We have dedicated language model AIs for that.

lol

and conputers to think for you

social media to be you

the matrix has you renting your soul back from them



Schelling's discussion of "conscious" and "unconscious" intelligence is relevant here. The conscious being what we call consciousness and the unconscious being mindfulness.

Yeah I know people are not conscious in this hellhole. I only hoped they are because simulations looked promising.
unconscious being mindfulness that actually explains a lot even if its meaningful coming from zombie. Thanks "terry".


Speaking of hellholes and zombIies (?), I understand voodoo is coming back, there's tough times in haiti. Could be another hat for you.


I guess this project has failed too. Needs to be scrapped and different concepts should be tried instead. As I have been warned...
Maybe some things can be saved. Certain generated designs are pretty cool.


we save all we can
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Pawel K, modified 2 Months ago at 5/11/24 10:43 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/11/24 10:43 PM

RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
They are apparently wanting to make computers that have AI chips in them to use normal computer chips for you. So soon people won't even need to use computers to use their computers!

Maybe someday they'll make dharma AIrhat  chips... but then I guess the idea "there is no solid self" flies out the window emoticon
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Pawel K, modified 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 11:25 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 11:25 AM

My Nibbana related insights

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
What is Nibbana?

It is experience of non-experience which can be said to arise from
1. seclusion from sensuality
2. dispassion
3. looking for non-experiences which happen all the time
4. 'falling' on it

Before I go to differences and nuances let's explain how can experience of non-experience happen. In order to have experience of non-experiences there needs to be consciousness which has no response from connected consciousnesses. In other words it is conscious experience but has no content. When consciousness don't arise there is no experience at all.

1. Seclusion from sensuality
Buddha used concept of seclusion from sensuality when giving instructions how to enter jhana. Why? Because 'near' Nibbna when its approached from passion for side of experience there exists experience of jhanas. Therefore experiencing jhanas by removing oneself from sensual experiences brings us close to Nibbana. In fact jhanas achieved using this method already contain Nibbana.

In order to experience jhana we need to get close but not too close. Since it is harder to seclude oneself from sensuality and control level of passion/aversion than nail Nibbana on the head (which is method from 4th point).

I mentioned aversion - yes, because this is axis of passion-aversion and Nibbana is right in the middle when we are no more passionate but not yet aversive.

In this method we practice jhanas by secluding oneself from sensuality and generally try to refine our seclusion by slightly removing it trying to not be trurn it to aversion.

Note:
Higher jhanas like 7th jhana are NOT the Nibbana!
The so called Nothingness jhana can seem to be a non-experience because it seems like its missing any experiences but it is still an experience. It is very subtle response of inactive parts of mind - so subtle it might appear as not having any experience until perception develops enough to perceive these responses more clearly.

2. Dispassion
Dispassion is getting closer to Nibbana from direction of aversion.
The experience of Nibbana is exactly the same so there is no difference. The difference is when we get close but not yet it - the views are completely different!
How do views differ from seclusion from sensuality?
While we have passion for experience but seclude ourselves we start experience harmonious experience called jhana. By moving from direction of aversion I mean wanting the experience to be gone and reducing this aversion until it hits zero and Nibbana. It can also happen for positive experience when we overshot seclusion to land on aversion. By pleasurable I mean jhanic - there is also experience of relief which is actually an aversive experience even if its pleasant and one could say satisfying. In fact anything that feels like satisfaction is relief. Like when we imagine experience called "Liberation" it is relief based - therefore aversion based. Its pleasure but if we refer to anything its change of what is there. Jhanas as in pure jhanic experiences never cause wanting any change. If there is any aspect of jhana which feels like is becoming unsatisfactory its relief and not jhana.

I know I know, it is hard to follow. It isn't however about understanding while reading but merely invitation to practice with this stuff. As complex as it all sounds it is very relevant and it clears up when knowing these experiences intimately. Knowing what is relief and what is jhana is of course needed to be better at landing at Nibbana.

I often say relief is bad because and its of attitudes mind can develop toward it which is not only too permissive for it but can become even completely mad about seeking it like it was solution to dukkha. It very rarely is solution to dukkha and only specific types, through specific mechanisms and never when it actually forms experience of relief - which is very 'explosive' and rather does more damage than good. Causes mind agitation and usually ends up in feeling mind needs now more relief after experiencing it than before.

In practice relief and Nibbana are so close that it is entirely possible to completely not resolve out the difference. It requires very good vipassana skills (ability to separate experiences out - good concentration is needed for that) to clearly perceive experiences of parts of mind in separation and very fine control over your level of aversion to use control of it as tool for perception of what is happening in mind.

Thankfully with some practical considerations all what I said so far about relief and its closeness to Nibbana and also working with this general space helps bring resolution of mind up to specs needed to differentiate between these experiences.

As an example for how person can mistake Nibbana and relief: When we feel for example small irritation and start to analyze it we will see that there is in this irritation aversion to it. When there is aversion then there is also desire for relief. We could go at it from "seclusion from sensuality" side and experience jhana along the way and I would recommend doing it like that. It is counter intuitive to go from direction it isn't at but it makes more sense experimentally to avoid issue of relief. For one by having it move from aversion to passion it crosses Nibbana which removes some agitation. Best to slow down as aversion reduces and if we do overshoot might not be clear so treat very slowly now until it stops existing.

We can also go from from dispassion side - then we will notice a point where desire for relief is stronger - seemingly at some point it will feel that despite aversion decreased desire for relief increased. Ignore this point and even more slowly reduce relief and then seemingly suddenly experience will stop completely. This is either it or maybe slight overshoot happened. Wiggle very slowly.

Now the issue is that once we are on point where desire for relief is the strongest there is obvious 'realization' that all we could do to end dukkha is do something akin to 'hit' and if we would do it then there is it: experience of relief. It is to be avoided! It doesn't resolve dukkha. In fact it can be easily tested at this point it will only cause that soon the experience is that desire for relief becomes stronger than before! Hitting it continuously might feel very pleasant and even in some sense refreshing but done for too long will cause its own dukkha which will get stronger and stronger. Other than desire for relief here being stronger it will seem as if now more and more of mind needs to experience relief. This desire of relief will always feel like if only you could get another big enough 'hit' of relief it will resolve dukkha once and for all. It won't, don't try doing it like that. Or try - you will get proof it doesn't work.

What is experience of Nibbana in comparison?
The perfect balance point doesn't feel in any way by itself. It by itself doesn't make itself known - only when experiences in part of mind which experiences Nibbana already exist and they are stopped existence of this spot is confirmed. When experiences stop there is no experience of experiences ending - they just end along with consciousness which could be used to indicate experience ended and compare it to how it was before. The experience of ending of experience feels completely unimpactful and especially compared to relief but at the same time it just works - it just isn't there anymore.

In case of example from above of irritation it will just not exist once all minds where it existed have perfect balance between passion and aversion in a sense where there is neither.

Again those points are so close its at times really hard to be precise about them.
One has to be dispassionate to experiences including dispassionate toward relief. Seclude yourself from experience of relief and it will be Nibbana.
In case where its still hard it doesn't matter as much - just be very slightly more dispassionate (or less aversive) and it will work out.

One thing to note is that purely jhanc experiences which arise from seclusion from sensuality which I just call "pure jhanas" lack any relief and by themselves do not cause mind to need to experience them or anything else when they end. They however pleasant as they are do not cause end of agitation caused by relief - that only happens at Nibbana.

3. Looking for non-experiences which happen all the time
It is in my opinion much more Zen approach and at the heart of realization called Kensho.
To understand how that works it is good to first mention how mind works - it works in pulses. Typically we organize mind in such a way our attention works in pulses happening from time and those pulses make a lot of things arise at the same time. There other ways to do attention is to have more smaller pulses happening where by "smaller" I mean rather than having lots of things getting activated only few things arise and pass away, few consciousnesses arise. This way of doing attention/focus is by the way called "right concentration".

Now what happens between these pulses? We normally do not experience this time at all so nothing happens and is therefore not experienced. If its not experienced then its like only experience of these pulses was happening. Now it is possible to start looking for this missing non-experience by being aware of momentary breaks in experience which are happening all the time but we might not yet notice them. Over time it becomes more obvious that each moment has them and eventually that most experience is this non-experience.

When mind arrives at this state when it directly realizes its own non-experience then I guess person understands Zen well.
It maybe sounds funny but what can I say?
Like with Buddha's method regarding Nibbana there is ending of experience of agitation caused by relief. Like in it relief is also close to non-experiences. One can in fact setup the whole thing to look for relief and have it. Or look for jhana and have it. If person realizes it and how to do it and start grasping how it happens then I guess understanding of Zen approaching supreme.

4. 'Falling' on Nibbana
It is possible to directly experience Nibbana or as I call "fall" on it.
What I mean by it is clearly understood by Arhats as one of things which 4th Path gives is mind that lacks response which non-arhat mind has where any experience which happen causes arising of copy of this experience and automatic remapping of source of experience to this copy. In other words before 4th Path happens we experience and then even more importantly refer to not source of experience but a copy of it. For example you touch something with your index finger and experience pressure in your finger - the experience if you were to investigate it won't be experience of finger but copy of it. Then trying to affect source of this touch experience which feel possible but while we can seemingly affect it there won't be persistent change. Even having good apprehension of consciousness and ability to change how experience is experienced it won't be easily possible to affect experience. It is possible by sustain effort - eventually changes will propagate in other direction like this copying mechanism existed for communication on both sides.

4th Path skips this completely allowing to directly talking with any part of mind without such intermediate buffers. Therefore it is also possible to directly experiences which we know where (in space of controlling parameters - here levels of passion and aversion).

Now I said person needs to be Arhat to do it. In fact person can always do just that!
If I were to know how to do it directly and did it like that. Then if I knew what aspect of mind causes this buffering to happen I could just stop having it and effectively consciously attain 4th path just like that. In fact I did exactly that by few years after attaining 4th path first causing mind to work as much as it normally would down the point I experienced issues normal mind had - even worse because I normally had mind which didn't really experienced much if any dukkha. So I consciously using this "admin" rights broke my enlightened mind to test if I wait some time (days) it will revert - it didn't. Then I attempted to still directly control myself like before... well, it was actually much harder than I thought it would be. Issue is noise and lots of things I thought would just work being dependent on conditioning of mind - removing the right responses made me address within mind things which were not doing what I thought they would do. Also these copies of consciousness are really very thorough so it makes zero sense to try to a dress anything that comes from them.

Instead mind has to ignore everything about experience get secluded from sensuality and like we do to get Nibbana there is point between seclusion and aversion where there no experience - at this point responses of mind are exactly the same as from 4th path mind because we arrived at Nibbna using mind that does copies of experiences causing its cessation. Now all that needs to be done is to keep it there.

How to keep non-arhat mind in Nibbana?
Nothing needs to be done. Keep in mind that if you start to be passionate toward it then it will move out from Nibbana and will happen again. If you start to be aversive toward it then it will start happening. If you start to be aversive toward it and it start feeling like you can experience relief and then you will start experiencing relief with it, then non-arhat mind will exist, agitation and dukkha.

Why would person want to have mind to arise once it is under cessation?
If we think we need to act through this mind and through its sensual experiences then the moment we want to do something we will refer to sensual experiences of this mind and these cannot exist while mind is in cessation. There is a need to learn how to use mind when mind is under cessation. This is also pretty much the only reason 4th path exists - otherwise 1st is already it enough to carry person to as pleasant states as are ever needed. Not because knowledge exists how to use this 'system' but because using it is easy enough when being just careful that over time (quickly) mind gets very quiet and feels good!

I actually explored what Nibbana actually is and how it works.
Let me say it like that: No matter what state I was I knew there is Nibbana and I need to either just find it or do the so called "hit" to make it work stronger. The "hit" is the same as what "relief" needs to be relief. Just being above where relief could happen but not doing it doesn't feel like relief but rather as tickling my brain. Nibbana spot unlike relief spot is totally invisible. There is very little feedback felt from it. Only when there is activity in mind then moving around Nibbana spot causes it to cease.

So what are those "spots"?
We have in neurons receptor sites for activating neuron and very similar sites for inhibiting neurons. Nibbana spot is causing activity of inhibition neurons. Relief spot is activating normal activity. The "hit" as I call it is synchronous activity in large number of neurons within consciousness. For momentary cessations its just large surge of inhibiting activity. For relief its large surge of normal activation. The hit itself isn't any action but merely simultaneous activation of multiple consciousnesses - it happens because focus of activated consciousnesses is synchronized with the mind which activated the hit. Hit itself is focusing consciousnesses on activity through having right very small amount of aversion - these consciousnesses wouldn't be activated but activity caused by mind which is active wakes up consciousnesses which when also start having the same amount of aversion causes large chain reaction.

The same type of hit but for Nibbana which is called momentary fruition happens because when there is a lot of activity everywhere then the same focus on perfect balance between passion and version causes all activated consciousnesses to have inhibiting activity. Trick is in how momentary cessation is induced - it includes both spots. It didn't include 'hit' on activity (so no relief) but rather sliding motion from activity to inhibition while doing hit.

At one time I used this trick a lot instead of just keeping steady focus on right amount for seclusion and dispassion. I was going through different methods of using these control signals to train right responses of my mind in regards to mind using them in different situations. Like using these momentary fruition to quiet parts of mind. I could keep my mind in Nibbana anyways and that was always an option but I choose to not do that "for dharma science". Likewise for some issues I would develop different configurations where I need to inhibit activity or increase it and then try similar patterns in different situations. I must admit most of the time it lacked any planning and most often I didn't know what I was looking for - not to mention why it works other than it working. But just by trying different ways to use this stuff I tried to reverse-engineer how this stuff works, the stuff I am putting in this post emoticon

Last word about relief - its not like going with parameters near activity should be avoided. Its using relief -

----

I am here describing passion/dispassion axis as if it was some kind of space - to me it is and its also in a sense visual but doesn't have to be and space doesn't matter. What matters is 'level' and knowing how to control it. It is trivial to control it when this mind which I refer to as non-arhat mind (which again can be under cessation even before 4th path to make thins more confusing ;)) is under cessation and when it isn't then it will pose issue: it will need to be moving this mind to Nibbana but it won't cause experience which caused creation of copies within this non-arhat mind to gets cessation. In fact that non-arhat mind will most likely generate another copy of experience making it very hard to do its cessation. This might need to be repeated multiple times. It can be done quickly so perhaps not the biggest issue but if there is too many copies it will inevitably feel like pushing boulder on a mountain which gods move back to the bottom.

With more experience with this part of mind it is possible to kinda address it all at once to move it to Nibbana (by consciously changing level of passion/dispassion) or perhaps in larger chunks. There is also a way to agitate larger portion of mind by triggering activity. I would still advice against doing 'hits' for relief and rather just shift passion/dispassion where it tickles and experience of desire for relief is stronger and use that to try to map out parts of mind which need to be shifted to Nibbana. All the while this is being done the original cause for desire for relief might still be there causing copies also show it. Eventually mind will clear and the thing which is shifted to Nibbana will feel more raw and genuine and once it is shifted to Nibbana its then gone.

Do it like I say consciously and it won't take more than one meditation session to arrive at that point. It will inevitably happen things will shift away and maybe some parts of this non-arhat mind will reveal itself which will need to be shifted to Nibbana but otherwise once method is proven in mind its green light - this pretty much is Stream Entry. I said non-arhat mind and now I am saying Stream Entry - first and foremost Arhat is a personal choice when to settle and secondly mind is vast and wide and lots of things to get conscious of. It isn't like there is anything to gain by rushing anything. If you got the point (the N spot ;)) then dukkha is something you do because you can afford it. Or in other words maybe neurons are getting tired but its more like complaining but not real dukkha. In either way this method is so efficient at cessation it makes the whole dukkha thing completely solved even if there is more stuff to do to have nice clean mind. There might be some deeper inside mind work needed to make things you shift be more separated out. Of course work on right concentration and other aspects of mind and morality, etc.

-----
As can be seen in this post I so far didn't mention 'sense of self'. Why is that?
Because let's don't be silly. No one ever believed in any separate sense of self. Its all about being hopeless in the face of dukkha. Nibbana once you realize how that works makes dyukkha trivial. No need to even think of sense of self as anything that it isn't. It loses its meaning. Likewise strong views kinda loose the meaning in general because once you start recognizing relief and know that you just need to nudge consciousness with it to Nibbana there is zero value in experience of relief and with it strong views.
Not to mention appeal of all these ascetic practices people do is completely lost. Why even bother? If these feel like I'd do them then why not but if its for relief then just Nibbana it and it's gone, the need to do stuff to not suffer.

One the other side there are jhanas - very easy to do once you are Stream Enterer, read: know Nibbana and what is near it.

------
Finishing thoughts

Just because Buddha didn't explain it like this (if he didn't... actually I almost didn't read any suttas as I got lost in being secluded from sensuality ; )) doesn't mean it isn't like this. Also there is zero technical reason for Buddha to have better perception of these things than me. I actually spend two last decades practicing my perception to be able with confidence talk about this stuff.

Also I do have more models for explanation of what it is that actually happens. For 4th path I mentioned Corpus Callosum and Anterior Commisure as the difference between 4th path and not - I still think for 4th path specifically it happens. It happens because Corpus Callosum is under cessation so we fall directly on to Anterior Commisure with the so called 'root of main consciousness'. That said actually 'insight' such as this is hardly useful because "How do you shift root of main consciousness?"... yeah, its done with putting quote on quote normal mind under cessation with Nibbana. Then you can make experience Anterior Commisure itself start disappearing by putting it under cessation. It seems to be too simple to allow that completely but its fun to try. Either way it doesn't matter and its just something I myself personally had to know to know because my goal was nothing less than Full Enlightenment. Not partial Enlightenment as in figuring something out practically and not caring for technical explanations.

--
So that would be it. My insights about Nibbana and what it means to be Stream Enterer.

Metta Fruitions,
Ni
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terry, modified 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 2:18 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 2:18 PM

RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 2595 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta
They are apparently wanting to make computers that have AI chips in them to use normal computer chips for you. So soon people won't even need to use computers to use their computers!

Maybe someday they'll make dharma AIrhat  chips... but then I guess the idea "there is no solid self" flies out the window emoticon


AI is another discussion the community should be having in relation to the (pragmatic) dharma. Social media algorhythms already manipulate the human limbic system leading to an enormous mental health crisis, itself only another symptom of the metacrisis.

As frightening as the inevitability of violent climate change is, informed people find the reality and prospects of AI the true horror. If people understood the technology in their cell phones they woud run from them screaming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFVoearUvP8
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terry, modified 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 2:46 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 2:46 PM

RE: My Nibbana related insights

Posts: 2595 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta
What is Nibbana?

It seems tome quite possible that this sort of mind control/initiation of "nibbana" at will might be achieved by implanting a computer chip in the brain.

If passions are mediated by neurotransmitters, we coud manipulate neurotransmitters in order to achieve a goal of dispassion.

Or it could be done the old fashioned way, biofeedback. Meditation.

Or we could just do the best we can and trust that will be the best we can do.
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terry, modified 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 3:14 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/12/24 3:13 PM

RE: My Nibbana related insights

Posts: 2595 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
terry
Ni Nurta
What is Nibbana?

It seems tome quite possible that this sort of mind control/initiation of "nibbana" at will might be achieved by implanting a computer chip in the brain.

If passions are mediated by neurotransmitters, we coud manipulate neurotransmitters in order to achieve a goal of dispassion.

Or it could be done the old fashioned way, biofeedback. Meditation.

Or we could just do the best we can and trust that will be the best we can do.


Don't actually have to implant chip in brain, the chips in our phones already manipulate our neurotransmitters quite effectively. It isn't that AI really knows you better than you know yourself, it is that it can manipulate you more effectively than you can manipulate yourself.

The inherently non benign machine "intelligence" is made infiinitely worse by being driven by capitalism. Verizon is godzilla. Terrorizing and  eating your children.
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Pawel K, modified 2 Months ago at 5/13/24 5:26 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 5/13/24 5:25 PM

RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Few more things about last topic of Nibbana just in case someone read my last post and thought I am not giving the topic enough depth that it deserves.

---
I described it as axis of passion / aversion but its really multi-dimensional space with all interesting controls grouped together like one giant family of control signals.
If I take jhanic response that happens next to Nibbana with some type of "passion" being present then it feels like 1st jhana - literally the same experience I have when focusing on object for a while - and then start pondering about 2nd jhana (which is what naturally arises when I focus on object longer) then there is a difference between 1st and 2nd jhana - its own consciousness can be derived and it can be a 'direction' which then can be used to induce qualities. It works in this case the same as before just slightly different axis so qualities are different. For the kind of difference in this example I have name: dopamine. It can be used (with some refining) to make mind feel jhanic like everything was experience of dopamine.

Now making whole mind jhanic (and by it I mean whole mind, all sensual experiences) might seem like its pleasant and all and... yeah, it is very pleasant.

There are other axes too, related to all sorts of most basic qualities. This is different to consciousnesses arising "together with - in response to" so basically consciousnesses arising together. I'd say closer to faculties of neurons.

For something like if experience isn't as nice as I like but it doesn't feel like aspects of it are to blame but something that arises along with it then its enough to go to that other consciousness which doesn't feel as nice as it could and play with its consciousnesses. Say make cessation of parts which feel tired or make them jhanic if they are not tired but just driven incorrectly.

---
How to control more parts at once?
At first it felt I could focus really well on specific part of mind and do stuff there but it was hard to translate to other parts of mind. It rather felt like I'd need to go one by one and change things. The solution was to develop consciousnesses which are meta-consciousnesses which connect consciousnesses. Then with these I need to use them. In time I developed them such that I'd just highlight what need to be affected by given action (e.g. cessation) and it would just work.

Its even possible to integrate it with 7th jhana to select inactive parts of mind and activate those...
...and such a ridiculous skill is what I meant in OP. Its something which requires some playtime with the mind to develop.
Also the posts like OP are to give ideas what is useful to develop. Obviously it will (probably) don't work right away because it hasn't been developed.

The way I came with this stuff is just doing things I wanted to happen. If they didn't I would do them more 'manually' while having some consciousness - the one which was supposed to do that stuff but didn't watch and learn. Neurons are quick learners when you are working with them with respect. They also like to get some love from mind and that can fix their rascal attitudes when you feel you show mind something and it doesn't want to listen.

---
Some years ago I made topic 4th Path to me is not specific state but rather admin mode of sorts. It is based on developments in mind which are directly related to working with mind. It is not state of mind but developed structures and of course knowledge how mind works and how to work with it that enables having confidence of mind that what it does is good - trust. This confidence or respect can be lost too - its earned when its deserved!

How to get merit? By caring for fellow consciousnesses/neurons by helping them. If we have some task to do we can do it together much better. Organize to do complex actions to improve performance of physical body. There is no need to refer to image of sense of self because everyone is talking to each-other with minds responsible for checking if everyone feels nice and raising the issue to whole mind if there is some issue which they cannot work through - the mind which is conscious sum of all the various consciousnesses which then together decide what actions could be taken. Either to suggest something to parts of mind with the issue or maybe coordinate other parts of mind to not cause the issue. We all know mind is busy place and at times there is focus on other things (like in what happens in outside world) and someone getting hurt can get unnoticed. Then in meditation everyone knowing there is nothing to do just play with each-other. Also if someone wants to use sense of self then they are free to do so. There is nothing wrong with it. Never was. It was issues in mind which were causing suffering, not method of feedback. The only reason I don't use sense of self much is because we have better more conscious ways now.

---
As for identity views - there is something called 'too much identity views' in mind and its when neurons create consciousnesses which think are separate and exists and need to sustain itself 'as is' not letting that emanation to disperse. What I do is teach neurons how they are made from parts and how those parts have consciousness and how these parts have parts and how everything is one being True Self or otherwise called God and how it was lonely so this reality emanated for it so it didn't feel as lonely. To experience love and other feelings and emotions. I teach them how they by being conscious and working with their parts can learn to communicate with any part of this mind if they also feel lonely. Then those emanations disperse but yet still exist as potential and neurons - or rather reality itself at times make them arise - but now without confusion and just for fun.

What is this "I" that I am constantly referring to?
Any consciousness. We allow consciousnesses to arise any time they want or need to arise. Alongside any other consciousnesses. It doesn't matter who is who or specific behavior that happens but only if we are supportive of each-other. Even for faculties needed for body to survive there is no exception. This is why we had to endure perception not know what to do without forced synchronization. There are better ways to do mind. Perception is better when no one is not forced to do it but only those who want to do it do it and do it consciously and mind consciously supervise it as a helper rather than some kind of warden.

---
Hmmm, I think this is enough for now.
I wrote few words about other ways people achieve what they call 'awakening' but there are reasons why the best course of actions is to not state it openly like that. Remember: We need conscious beings to help this world improve. Try to be more mindful, think about what you do before you do it. Everyone makes mistakes. The point is to improve and the method is to do it consciously/mindfully.

Metta Fruitions,
Ni
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 5/17/24 2:48 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/17/24 2:48 PM

Five Aggregates - feeling

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Suffering comes from causes.
Aggregates are like lenses through which we view mind.
For each of the aggregates person can learn how to identify the causes and cause cessation by using pure aggregate alone.
Being able use aggregates in separation is right concentration.
Being able to purify aggregates is right mindfulness.
To arrive at right concentration there needs to be right mindfulness and for there to be right mindfulness there needs to be right concentration.
Each phenomena in mind is expressed through each and every aggregate and can be affected by each aggregate.

All aggregates should be developed. For removing arrow of suffering the most useful is... perception? consciousness?
No actually while my attitude shows infatuation with specifically those two I am mostly 'feelings' guy.
There is difference between retrospection and analysis and tricks and actual business of dealing with dukkha. Feelings are as powerful as any other aggregate.

What aggregate of feeling can be used for dharma?
For example where it comes to feelings when I read suttas the feeling arose. It felt like something valuable so I cultivated the feeling and by feeling alone I can make Buddhadharma cause cessation of dukkha. Like without shedding single thought about what he said or meaning behind what he sad. Just this pure feeling does it - and then when I think about something subtle feeling can arise that since I immersed myself in it I know what this feeling meant. That is how one gains intuitive understanding of any Dharma. I can have mental constructs known as thoughts in regards to dharma and they might make sense on their own accord but if I check how this understanding feels versus feeling I identify as purified Buddhadharma I know its not it. And more precisely if there is something in it and lots of different mental constructs can fit partially. Then to have perfect fit in regards to thoughts it would be whole complex tree. One can meditate under such tree and get the same results. To grow right tree its easier to work with feelings.

What is cultivation?
When interacting with beings there is feeling - it is weak because it is not precise and the feeling that is precise might not even be free from issues. Well crafted feelings have quality I call vajra which is error correction - by cultivating feeling person feels that certain things can go wrong and with it break what feeling is supposed to accomplish. Therefore by putting more effort feeling is expanded to be perhaps more complex with some redundancy and hints of what things are not it just by making them to feel like errors. If someone has talent for these things and work with dharma they can make these errors feel like relief and draw people in.

Then the task for Buddha disciple is to take transmission and cultivate the feeling. It is as much making feeling applicable everywhere but also decoding the original meaning of it. This was more or less my understanding which arose by working with Buddhadharma - the feeling which arose while being exposed to Buddha's dharma. Something very simple with strange encoding which is by itself another dharma.

Vajra mind as I call this mind which uses error correction wasn't even something Buddha developed that was something he concerned himself as much but it was something that allowed him to develop his dharma to feel pure - without ability to be misunderstood. If we let it in it will correct any manipulations and extract itself. It might take time but the feeling is designed in such a way that errors give right amount of relief to show how its bad but not enough to cause dukkha by itself.

How to cultivate such things?
Well, fact its self extracting error-corrected dharma doesn't make cultivating it much different than cultivating any feeling including things from other people which they developed. Usually people who claim Arhatship but actually put lots of effort in to their self-development have some interesting states. They too knowingly or not have some error-correction baked in. How well they work depends on what person focused on while developing their solution/dharma. For typical Arhat the expectation is person will do practices and read the same things so there is not a lot of effort to make dharma self-complete and certainly not this self-extraction being part of feeling which is cultivated. It is something that can be used to practice how to cultivate experiences. There is all sorts of experiences which can be had.

I still haven't said how to cultivate anything, haven't I?
Well, so the idea is to use five aggregates by just letting feeling to fall on them in as pure way as it could happen.
There is feeling in mind so there should be possible for there to be form of it, right? So let mind be form of it.
There is feeling in mind so there should be possible for there to be feeling of it, right? So let mind feel it.
There is feeling in mind so there should be possible for there to be perception of it, right? So let mind perceive it.
There is feeling in mind so there should be possible for there to be mental formations of it, right? So let mind have mental formations of it.
There is feeling in mind so there should be possible for there to be consciousness of it, right? So let mind to be conscious of it.

One point feels out of place and its feeling of feelings - yeah, that is needed for cultivation of feelings just like having perception of perception is needed to cultivate perceptions and consciousness of consciousness is needed to cultivate consciousness.

This shall be done until feeling feels pure enough to feel really safe to experience more, to fill mind with it. When its safe mind will not resist it. It is not about surrender to feelings. Only bad people say others to surrender. Do resist feelings until they are pure enough to them go through resistance. Just do not fake it by pretending they are pure just by surrendering to them. It needs to be result of effort mind puts on feeling. the more you can resist the purer it will get.

Buddha is not Gautama Buddha and Dharma is not his dharma. Buddha and his Dharma is something that came out of right cultivation.
If you learn this trick you will be able to read dharma book and surpass author.

If this is surpassing author or not is of course disputable but the point is to arrive at something pure that is better than what immediately arise. If it arose ready to fill mind then person would read say MCTB and before closing the book be Arhat. For Anagami its how it already begins to look like. Arhat reads anything and sees that person didn't get true essence of what their mind wanted to develop and through clinging to what is there and not being able to resist it anymore let his mind fill with unpure dharma. I am not talking about merely finding flaws but having the solution up and working and being glorious. Of course knowing limits of words it makes sense that what we get from writing there will be need to purify things which come to us by mental constructs (in case of books) so it will always feel like that. And this is how one knows they arrived at right understanding. If by chance it was improved - even better.

Resistance... aren't we already resisting?
There is something called right resistance.
Maybe our friend Gautama Buddha didn't talk about it but it goes without saying 8 is just number Buddha came up by folding stuff up. That is why its called 8-fold path and not 8-point path. I always assumed I need to identify right meaning and will arrive at new points. Like e.g. right relief would be no relief... that is done for its own sake so no relief because there isn't relief you do for anyone's sake. Before it comes someone else its not relief but right love.

Anyways, keeping up with theme of this post and use aggregate of feeling wrong resistance is reacting to feeling in breaking it right then and there. Right resistance is to let feeling fall on pure aggregates and let them do what they need to do until thing is ready.

Especially if the feeling is complex and mind out of practice it can take long time.
Still we talk such short timescales compared to trying to get anything by wrong resistance that it's very quick in comparison and it is engaging enough that its pure pleasure to do. Yeah, if its right resistance then its pleasant by itself. Experience of feelings expanding and is glorious. Also as I hinted by resisting it means also no relief which also means experience of love.

---
tl;dr
To get someone dharma fall in love with the feeling of the mind which shows up in mind through any method e.g. words.
That said I don't like term love. Its very misunderstood term. Suggests clinging. It still fits because its like when you fall in love for the first time with someone - you resist it with all your might but yet don't resist it like in attempting to break the experience with distraction but rather your whole soul is falling on the experience and that is the origin of this experience of love. That is why I use the term 'falling' in my posts. Its the same thing. Then there is deeper kind of love which comes from not resistance but trust and love itself. It is doing the same thing in regards to letting oneself fall on experiences continuously. That is why right love deserve to have its own point.

Also and this might shock you - 4th path feels like falling in love.
It is something I would say Mahasi Sayadaw experienced. It is the kind of vibe, light that also arises from doing Mahasi Noting the right way. It was also my assumption the way it'll work is that as soon as I manage to make methods used for "technical" 4th path feel like that it'll cause 4th path and it won't be an approximation caused by repetition but intended my Sayadaw state. There is more to this experience.

Metta Fruitions,
Ni
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terry, modified 1 Month ago at 5/17/24 6:55 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/17/24 6:55 PM

RE: Five Aggregates - feeling

Posts: 2595 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
your whole soul is falling on the experience and that is the origin of this experience of love.



What soul, bra?


​​​​​​​Falling in love is pheromones and rat brain.
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 5/18/24 12:46 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/18/24 12:46 PM

RE: Five Aggregates - feeling

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
terry
What soul, bra?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2QJvc_SxFQ

My hat is calm and collected and just does its thing emoticon
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 5/19/24 1:34 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/19/24 1:34 PM

DN vs Nibbana

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
As we all know DN is caused by tired and agitated mind which trying to get experience of relief triggers side activity that spreads around the already tired brain and causes even more tiredness and agitation. If we don't know now we know.

To resolve DN it is enough to cease activity within affected part of brain and that is that. Maybe if its some important faculty there is need to activate parts of brain which can somehow do it (note: brain is flexible, it can adapt!) as to not loose the faculty. If its something important brain will need it and won't let it be missing.

What to do when whole brain is agitated and tired and feels like constant buzz that feels like it causes itself?
Cannot just switch to something else cause everything has it and normal cessation feels like whatever underwent it got activated again. Also no possibility of any relief that doesn't feel like adding more fire.

The solution is using amazing power of inhibition signals to stop activity and keep parts of brain under cessation 'actively' which will cause them to not be able to get any activity. Now if whole brain is affected its best to cause Nibbana for part of brain which are just active but not actively used. Keep them like that but have this inhibition activity itself arise rarely - from time to time like in delta brainwaves, as slow as it can go per part of brain because inhibition needs activity. No activity is real cessation. Nibbana is kinda both - done exactly like I just described.

Then after some time while switching active mind between various parts of brain as to not get one tired too much stop inhibiting, shift slightly toward jhana, shift activity to that part of mind which got some rest and do the Nibbana thing in other parts of the brain while pulses of activity should be done as rarely as mind can do with and as little things arise at once as possible - right concentration. When there is no buzzing in the background it should feel like light of mind flashes few times a second with some additional activity when there is some actions which require more activity.

That strange sounding method can resolve DN in case whole brain is agitated rather quickly. It is hard to pull off because when whole brain is agitated we cannot just expect normal Nibbana to work well because normally it includes relief... I mean if someone knows Nibbana they do experience these kinda experiences of "liberations" - that is the expression of relief while everything is as likely to get jhana or inhibition. These do in case of very agitated mind too much ruckus and need to be avoided. It is necessary therefore to shift to Nibbana from side of jhana so seclude oneself from sensuality like the whole mind was experiencing jhanic pleasure and we just wanted to tone it down a little. Its tricky but that just means it might take minutes to pull off.

It is also much easier to do when mind has some as could be described room to breathe so parts of brain which are not so agitated/tired as this switch then can be made and agitation really made in to jhana before experiencing inhibition. Once that is possible it could be done like that and best to do it like that to make mind jhanic in order to use it. Best to not engage in jhanic bliss but just go forth and clear mind from all activity keeping as little as it. After some time as neurons get some rest its then better time to do jhanas. Of course there is always part of mind which is active so it should experience jhana. For cessation specifically I mean having activity in other parts of mind which are not part of active mind. These can experience:
- nothing - no activity
- inhibition
- jhana
- normal activity
- buzzing
This buzzing is just self-triggering relief caused by wrong tendencies of mind to indulge in relief.
With some self observation while practicing with the mind it becomes more obvious. Even the kind of Nibbana experience with 'liberations' is causing slight agitation.

That said relief itself and preferably that Nibbana with liberations is a method unto itself to kinda stimulate parts of mind when the issue is not too much stimulation but stupor. It is in fact the best activity for neurons that feel stupor. Normally it feels like one should trigger stronger relief, make as I called it before 'hit'. It is a bad idea. Best to be subtle with it and mix it with jhana and inhibition.

Typically mind is not too precise so Nibbana at first will be experienced as more or less that. More these 'liberations' when going from side of aversion and doing dispassion and more jhanic when going from side of seclusion from sensuality. To get to pure Nibbana requires some practice. That is why I don't say to just fall on Nibbana, especially when mind is agitated. This might be already doable normally but it works because of pre-setting part of mind to which there is a switch to (activity shifts) and for all agitated brain its not doable like that. I mean one can try and have it works but keep in mind that mind is not singular thing. Any single consciousness which we might think is single small consciousness is millions of neurons and its very complex system that has its own states affected by various things. In practice then it all comes down to statistics. Methods which work for cessation are those which statistically cause most activity to stop. If method you which seems faster requires clean agitated mind which doesn't change its state constantly it doesn't mean it will work as neatly as slower method but which taken in to account nature of changes which are happening.

In either case practice makes an Arhat emoticon
Also please don't cause your whole mind to experience DN to practice this stuff. I meant it as in if by lack of good judgement we overindulge in practice. During some A&P's not even the sky feels like the the limit and it can so happen that all neurons get tired. Number of neurons which can have activity is the limit. Less so if mind was aware of its own limitations and did proper maintenance all the time and pretty much shifted to EQ right away but then it would be just skillful practice and not A&P and there wouldn't be DN afterwards.

Metta Fruitions,
Ni

p.s. This post could use some more work. It is hard to describe meditation.
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 5/23/24 10:33 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/20/24 4:40 PM

Can neurons die?

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
WARNING!
This post contains scientifically unconfirmed assumptions based on my wild imagination based on experiences.
Either way be careful with meditation, it is known to cause some kinds of issues to some people, usually when they overdo it ignoring warning signs!

As we all know we have neurons which are little living beings. If they have little senses of self or not is besides the point but they definitely pass signals around. They have various inputs and one output. They get inputs which are for activation and inhibition and this causes them to activate or inhibit activation. There are various types of inputs mediated by different neurotransmitters. Its the whole complex system.

Now what happens when neuron is constantly stimulated.
It produces electrical activity so it uses lots of energy. Its chemistry is such that activity causes it to get imbalance of sodium and potassium which it regulates but regulates in such a way to get proper balance - not proper amount of chemicals. If the amount is not proper it will cause its activation potential to be affected. It makes sense for nervous system to evolve in such a way as to detect when neurons are overworked from patterns of activity they produce from stimulation. This is what Dukkha is. Or as I say "its all just tired neurons".

When lots of neurons are overworked and experience dukkha nervous system protect itself by doing literally anything to shift activity elsewhere. Be it distractions - like thinking about something else. Emotions - like getting emotional which also engages different parts of the brain. Not always it works very well if emotion is activating tired part but then it feels like getting emotional is causing suffering. It can be less suffering in some sense but some suffering can increase in intensity. It can become sharp pain to the point it might feel its better than lots of suffering spread across larger volume.

Is is possible to overwork neuron by activating it so it dies?
In theory yes and it is called excitotoxicity.
Another way nervous system prevent itself is to reduce levels of neurotransmitters - think like depression caused by some parts of brain being overstimulated.

Now what would happen if we improved out ability to in short time overload parts of brain by e.g. doing the same thing with the same part of brain for hours on end? Like in 'meditation'...

Well, I don't know if neurons would be done for but surely the way people talk about attainments doesn't exclude this possibility.
The way I imagine it happens is that lots of suffering neurons produce more suffering than less neurons driven harder because its only so much pain signals single neuron can produce. Nervous system constantly stimulating itself will optimize for passing signals through less neurons giving them more inputs and optimizing what is received on the output (though not compensating for this rewiring) kinda driving them to a corner. Then do this dream meditation session with a blip and all - who knows if reset isn't just brain erroring out due to suddenly missing its component.

Does it matter?
I treat my neurons as living beings. I was little scared to do so but I didn't become crazy from it. Neurons are shy and fearful beings, they only want mind to show its love to them because for them its love of everyone else. They don't want anything else. I wouldn't want to kill beings who only want to experience love.

So am I mad or people glorify neuroncide?
And for what purpose? Because they don't want to think about anything?
Because its supposedly easier?
To punish those who cause suffering?

I don't know how people think it goes but one thing I know. People claim insight when they merely have experience from dharma book, don't put any effort knowing anything and just to make even more convoluted abstractions. Solution to dukkha is each part of mind arise with knowing its impermanent, causes suffering and has no self <- and this is practice to get awakened?
Why keeping in mind notion there is no self would be preventing dukkha?

It is really no wonder people have zero knowledge of mind - how mind would show anything to the devil that delights in torture?
And even after what in their delinquency needed to be done is done neurons are still just happy because mind is happy it achieved something good through common effort.

I felt it in my bone when people saw my posts about neurons they felt very uneasy.
Why would anyone be uneasy about lovely beings from their body that are so happy when mind gives them some attention?
And it is apparently me who 'controls' something. I don't control anyone and besides it is not control people fear. I know what they fear. I always knew.
I know a lot of things. I didn't settle for handful of fake paper leaves that were supposedly the same as Buddha gave his students but went for the real thing, I live in the forest and under a real sky.

Either way its just a model. Just like some other things I am working on. Where there is dukkha there eventually comes time for cessation of its causes!

Metta Fruitions,
Pawel
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 5/23/24 10:30 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/23/24 10:30 AM

Positional information

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Sensations have subtle hints regarding position in space... these are not useful for meditation though. This space is space of "form".
There are subtler hints regarding position in nervous system. Those I identify as making true formlessness.
One has to practice with intent to notice such hints and this will eventually lead to fruition and it will feel like some veil was lifted from sensate experience and now each experience has location in illusory "form" space and separate stream of experience in nervous system space.
From there we have... say three more paths to mastery.

Should anyone find it difficult to follow what the heck I am writing about: attain Stream Entry on this axis of development and then reread the posts. You might actually find information therein very useful!

How to practice?
Simple, just try to notice any hints in sensations which you don't know what they are for.
If you have any shift then those aspects of sensations related to location will change.
You will identify lots and lots of qualities purpose of which might not be at first obvious. It is where all the magic happens!
Tracking what they are for in order to figure them out I always assumed was part of Buddha's "mindfulness".
There are numerous ways positional information is expressed on different senses e.g. auditory experience of tonality of experiences. If you hear neurons clicking. I predominately use touch to then use visualized touch. Visual perception of it is possible but even now I wouldn't say its that detailed. Certainly could be better but there is cost of having too detailed perception of these things and its not always needed. The point is to be able to dynamically zoom in with right concentration to part of nervous system.

I write more nuance about how to work with mind from this perspectives later.

Interesting tidbits:
- It goes without saying true formless jhanas are not "infinite space". It is just artifact in space of form.
- I actually don't know how it feels to read my posts referring to locations in nervous system without having that skill. I always had it. Extremely weak at the beginning but I just assumed it is something I should be able to perceive clearly because how would I know how to move my hands? Moving hand never satisfied me - the how I know how to move it - that is the important question!
- That said I don't know if it isn't possible to somehow not be able to have such positional information... seems extremely unlikely. Only one way to find out!

Metta Fruitions,
Pawel
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 5/23/24 8:16 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/23/24 8:16 PM

RE: Positional information

Posts: 2926 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Who the f is this Pawel K guy??? Is this Ni Nurta??? Hey Ni are you this Pawel guy?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 5/23/24 8:18 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/23/24 8:18 PM

RE: Five Aggregates - feeling

Posts: 2926 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Love you terry! emoticon BUT I would love you more if took that bloody Uke out of your dog's teeth and played it while saying these words! emoticon 
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 5/25/24 3:28 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/25/24 2:21 PM

Ni*

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Hello Papa,

Ni and Pawel are the same entity, yes.
Human mind has many motivation, many parts of mind, many ways to do things.
Ni exists when I have right focus on something that feels like thousands thunderbolts.

Let's say I weighted things when I chose the nick few years ago to have best match to how I feel.
Maybe it doesn't look like it but I was decade ago very into standard form of Dharma and its methods.
I am already doing it.

I decided to take it nice and slow. With human face.
It's still Ni's soul underneaths. Hopefully not as distracting and more helpful by being quieter.

As I say intensity of experience is actually strongest near Nibbana...

...actually you know what... we should actually have more names even if the experience is the same because there are sides to it! I asked ChatGPT about names and difference and its just talking about origin of the name and not difference so there is no such differentiation in contemporary dharma.

I'll call it:
Nibbana for realizing seclusion from sensuality - from direction of clinging to sensual pleasure, reducing it.
Nirvana for realizing dispassion - from direction of aversion, reducing it.
Nibbana/Nirvana (Ni*) when its the point of singularity itself - when it goes slightly out of it then its brought back, always from the other direction, reducing it.

It has to do what these words sound like. It is subtle but words have big impact on mind.

Anyways, even though Ni is gone Pawel K will put right effort so that essence of Ni* is not!

Metta Fruitions,
Pawel K

p.s. I am oversimplifying it obviously. That's the new 'me' right there!
Otherwise I would just start referring to neurons and their activity modes, balancing things out, etc. etc. and distract myself from useful essence. And yet... Ni had very important job to do!

EDIT://
I almost forgot... obviously it matters because person should do it like that
Mind in DN should be like "I feel fine, everything is fine I can practice / fix issues"
Mind in DN should be like "I feel dukkha, there exists dukkha"
Mind in DN should be like "I seclude myself from all the pleasant things about this mind, I am dispassionate toward this experience, I seclude myself from sensuality of this mind, I am dispassionate toward this mind, I seclude myself from sensuality of pleasure caused by cessation of this mind" until mind is at Ni*
Mind in DN should be like "I feel fine and can find cause and to resolve the cause


Why the change from Buddha's order?
Because it could always be improved.
DN indicates we know we are in dukkha nana - when there is no dukkha in dukkha nana in mind then no point to raise alarms. Practice means working on last point of previous dukkha incidents. The next moment after dukkha is recognized we do its cessation (alternating between Nibbana and Nirvana works best in my experience) and after there is no dukkha then we analyze mind - like it would be nice to be precise about any patches and whatnot so maybe practice things to improve perception, etc. Maybe find things which work even faster than Ni* like switching activity out of part of mind which experiences it.

What if we are not in Dukkha Nana?
Neurons get tired all the time. Just because they are tired more at times it doesn't mean somewhere in mind doesn't exist dukkha.
It is not about noticing dukkha with each sensations - when there is no dukkha then there is no dukkha. When there is somewhere dukkha we acknowledge mind is in dukkha nana - yet still we could feel fine. Like if mind switches activity to where there is no dukkha then it doesn't mean other part of mind isn't needing its maintenance!

Mind should be kept in such a state we can use any faculty and not experience dukkha.
This include after having Paths being able to experience own old mind with all its idiosyncrasies like having muscles represent 'sense of self' and there should be no dukkha caused by it all. The less dukkha exists even if not experienced the less mind will cling to identities. Mind clings to identities because it protects itself from unresolved issues that cause dukkha. Resolving dukkha is recursive process - the same Ni* which fixes dukkha can fix it elsewhere - the cause.

Not hopefully it makes more sense.

EDIT2://
Of course one can do it however order and way one wants. The point is to bring mind to state it feels good but also not forget to fix issues that are not experienced. It is dynamic process any lists like that are just an example - something a buddha recommends.
Buddha is just Bodhisattva who focus on improving this stuff for benefit of sentient beings and has something figured out.
I am not even claiming mine is better but I just recommend what I tend to do most that seems to work best for me.

Also if someone didn't realize Gautama Buddha was using his 'ego' to say things like his Enlightenment being unsurpassed to agitate minds of people like me (at least I hope - assumed that because it made more sense to my perfect image of a Buddha). Meaning someone with a talent and most of all right will to put a right effort who feels this dharma stuff can be improved.

Imho Gautama Buddha dharma (as it is presented to us at least!) has a flaw that he didn't drop relief itself. (note: I'll deliberate on it later) He dropped clinging, passions but not relief. (so kinda didn't drop anything)
Your dharma cannot make people want to not exist because then its obviously a depression and depression should be cured. Existence is unavoidable. Best is if we exists with good dharma around.
Best dharma is always pragmatic!
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 10:49 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 10:49 AM

Gone

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
It seems I cannot post anything on DhO because I am being silenced so I will be parting ways with you guys.

Anyways... Say big THANKS to Chris, shargrol and of course Daniel.
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 6:24 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 6:24 PM

RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 5331 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
No one is silencing you, Pawel. I'm asking that you not be disruptive by posting purposely confusing and argumentative content. We agreed on DM that you would post your comments on this specific topic, on which you can say anything you want to say. Anything at all. You violated that agreement so I froze that new topic but left it up for people to read, as is.

You have not been banned. You're welcome here but not if you continue to be disruptive.

Chris M
DhO Moderator 
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 5/31/24 3:49 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/31/24 3:49 PM

RE: Cutting to the chase

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
We obviously value different 'things'.
It is at times (at the beginning) bothersome but I didn't get my color synesthesia (I use non-'loaded' name for this attainment) by hiding 'things' in to little contained boxes.
That is you. You resolve issues in this way.

But guess what. Eventually the essence of these boxes which made them alive (and oh so bothersome to you) can just notice better places to be.
But this is what you want. So please feel free to be relieved. It won't bother no one.

Fiery sunset came to an end,
Pawel

p.s. Thanks!