Hi guys,

I've been studying concentration practice with a Tibetan sangha recently. Their map of the stages to perfect concentration is pretty diffferent to the model of samatha jhanas used around here and I'm wondering if you guys have any ideas on how the two correspond.

Basically the Tibetan model is like this:
1. Try to concentrate. Find yourself distracted.
2. Occasional brief concentration. Distraction prevails.
3. Mindfulness improving. Vigilance improving. Distraction immediately recognized.
4. The object is never lost, but little parts of the mind wander (subtle excitement) or the object gets dull (subtle laxity).
5. Distractions startr to drop off, but laxity is a problem and the object is dulled
6. Laxity is remedied but very subtle excitement threatens
7. All problems are remedied when they arise, but they do arise.
8. Once the mind is fixed at the start of the session, no problems arise
9. Perfect concentration arises without effort.
Then comes the fruition of calm-abiding, where mental and physical pliancy arise, there is a warm feeling at the top of the head and the body feels very comfortable and the mind very pleasant, sharp and powerful.

As I understand it, the jhana model claims that there are no distractions even in the first jhana, whereas the Tibetan model implies that distractions remain until fairly advanced stages of the practise.

Hi Connor--

The Tibetan map leads to "Shamatha", calm abiding, of deeper and deeper degrees. It reflects *stages* of increasing skill at calmly abiding here and now. It seems that one can access Jhanna, which are discrete *states*, from different degrees of depth of shamatha, resulting in the differences between criteria for what constitutes "authentic" jhanna. (I.e., how "hard" the jhanna is).

Typically in the prag dharma community, Jhanna are accessed from lower levels of shamatha. Does that make sense? The highest stage of shamatha seems to be an attainment, which is irreversible in the same way as stream entry. (But sounds a lot better, in some ways). (I'm basing this off of descriptions, both written and verbal from meditation masters in the Mahamudra tradition.)

Check out this:

http://dharmatreasure.com/writings/

See the meditation manual. Culadasa seems to have a practice background in both Theravada (of some kind) and Tibetan practice (Mahamudra meditation tradition).

-Jake

In the Karma Kagyu tradition of Tibetan Buddhism's "Jewel Ornament of Liberation", one is warned away from jhanas (sanskrit: dhyana) as unecessary or even to be avoided; I don't remember where in the text anymore. I think this treatment is more less the same in other Tibetan Buddhist traditions.

They may also be referred to as "rupa vichara" and "arupa vichara" in some books on Tibetan Buddhism.

Eric

Yeah, Eric-- my impression from practicing in the tibetan scene is that jhanna is definitely discouraged in some ways. The issue seems to be that from the mahayana and especially vajrayana perspective, withdrawal from or suppression of the senses is seen as switching one version of samsara for another-- specifically, trading desire-realm identifications (gods, demigods, humans, animals, hungry ghosts, hell-- which means, pride, jealousy, passions in general, stupidity, craving and ill will) for the form and formless realm identifications. These are often critiqued as 'oneness experiences', 'cosmic consciousness' and such, and are sharply differentiated from non-duality in all the vajrayana teachings I've studied and practiced. But there are also Tibetan lineages which employ these states in mind training, so as usual its not so simple... ;-)

the buddha had this same idea, but he still thought they were a good idea. anagami (the mastery of concentration) is the ending of sensual desire, then you cut desire for form/formless realm existence. there is also a sutta where he talks about dropping one happiness for a higher happiness as a sign of wisdom.

Yes, I think Tibetan/Vajrayana critiques of jhanna are sometimes part of their polemic against Theravada. That's too bad. I think there are multiple valid paths, with different outcomes, and classical suttic Buddhism makes use of these states for a definite purpose-- and I think a valid one at that. Depends on what your overall practice orientation is I guess!

The Hinayana map is of the states you access; the Tibetan map is how good you are at accessing them?


But don't jhanas arise naturally any time you concentrate well enough?

[quote=Conor O'Higgins]The Hinayana map is of the states you access; the Tibetan map is how good you are at accessing them?



Well, maybe. Close I guess. The right idea ;-) Think of it like this: jhannas are like a sequence of physical movements/gestures. Depth of shamatha is like physical strength and flexibility. Greater depth of shamatha = greater depth of jhanna, greater length maintaned, etc...

Jhana is shamatha.

Not necesarily.

The nine stages--Kamalashilas's nine stages--are states of shamata (i.e. calm abiding). There is no mention of the arising of piti or sukha. I've seen the ninth stage referred to as access concentration. Some say it is from the higher of teh nine stages that one accesses jhana.

Kamalashilas's nine stages are found in many Tibetan texts, often as the initial steps in mahamudra practice, with absorption (jhana) as not being necessary

Stage 9 looks like the 2nd or 4th pure land jhana or simply forth jhana. I espessially thought this with the term plyancy. How are you integrating these 9 stages into your personal practice? You can never know the taste of a fruit untill you take a bite.

To explain pliancy a bit more: the translations 'servicability' or 'flexibility' are also used. It means your mind and body do what you ask of them. Your Will says, "Get out of bed!" and your mind and body say, "Yes boss!" - that is pliancy/servicability/flexibility.

Depending on the day, I can be anywhere from stage 4 to stage 7 (as described in my first post). When my concentration is good, I get a feeling that I'm pretty sure is first jhana; it matches the descriptions of first jhana nicely.

The Tibetan version described is based on Kamalashilas Stages of meditation, and is the path to shamatha (stage 10, synonymous with first jhana). 

So let's get an overview:

1. 9 gradual stages to shamatha, where we begin as meditators, and with a stepwise more and more refined attentional balance (the mind still abides in the desire realm, with perhaps spikes of meditative experiences which may seem like jhana, or on the high stages acess to first jhana but without full stability) for details view: http://www.sbinstitute.com/sites/default/files/Ten%20Stages%20to%20Shamatha.pdf
2. When stage 10 is reached, it is like a threshold, where your prana-system will work quiet differently also after your first jhana session. When further and further familiarity with jhana is attained the second, third and fourth jhanas follow (where the mind abides in the form realm). Ajahn Brahm has interesting descriptions of these states in the book Mindulness Bliss and Beyond.
3. The first, second, third and fourth formless absorbtions (mind abides in the formless realm)

In short one may say that in meditative absorbtion, there are no appearances of sound, tactile sensations, or sight, but an experience of awareness which is blissful, non-conceptual and radiantly clear. You won't be aware of anything around you. It is also said you get clairvoyant powers like remembering past lives. 

It is in all buddhist traditions viewed as nessecary to achieve shamatha/meditative absorption to cultivate wisdom and direct insight. In the tibetan tradition one does not traditionally however emphazise shamatha as much as in the Therevada tradition, mainly I think due to not becoming sidetracked by attaching to the bliss of shamatha, and thus forgetting about bodhichitta, thus entering the longer path to buddhahood: shravakas path of cessation. It is also said that one has not moved one hears bredth closer to budhahood if one merely have achieved shamatha and nothing else. 

Traditionally tibetan teachers teach that acess to first jhana (corresponding to stage 9 on the path to shamatha) is "good enough" when it comes to calm abiding. Therevadins on the other hand follow the Buddhas words in Pali canon, where he describes not only jhana to be necessary to achieve full arhatship, but also the four formless absorptions. In the tibetan tradition It is said that shamatha is nessecary for the development of direct insight, wisdom. In the Dzogchen tradition main emphasis is on recognizing the natural state, mind essence, where it is nessecary to rely on shamatha to stabilize this state and to not being distracted. 

Jhana (synonynous to shamatha, meditative absorption, full concentration etc) is a very rare feat to achieve, which very few meditators have gained (even though there may be many who think they have achieved it). My teacher Alan Wallace says that for a well-prepared meditator with a normally balanced mind, it takes about 1,5 years of continous shamatha-meditation in a strict retreat setting to have a serious chance of achieving shamatha, and that one need to progress on the 9 stages by letting go more and more. I highly recommend his book The Attention Revlolution, for anyone serious about shamatha meditation. 

All the best
/Erik