RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it

Pawel K, modified 27 Days ago at 5/23/24 9:33 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/15/24 1:30 AM

RE: Emptiness and fabrication is kinda disturbing. Am I misunderstanding it

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Dream Walker
You are jumping ahead to third path stuff in your 'readings'. Are you getting to the 5th jhana? Forget about space, awareness, etc until it is the next thing to have fun exploring.
No big deal.

Jumping to anything isn't using your language "a big deal". Only clinging to it is because then the issue isn't even what is being worked to but clinging.

Besides I'd say 3rd Path by my intuition and which I yesterday checked in is already a relative mastery of each of Four Noble Truths - so it should not pose any issue whatsoever to recognize mind that fears space and do its cessation. I dunno... e.g. make it secluded from its own sensuality and put it to Nibbana. Its its heightened reactivity due to obsessing about state of its 'inputs' that causes it to freak out.

I would say noticing that there is in some specific case suffering - I mean specific conditions where suffering is and conditions where suffering isn't - is just normal aspect of good mindfulness. It is part of what allows to identify causes of. The cause wasn't in this case very clear so asking other people is a way to identify causes. It isn't any different for any Path expect your mind might know. Though which mind is yours to know is af higher Paths more fluid matter ;)

Regarding 5th jhana and spaciousness. Imho even though 5th jhana originally was always said to have space in it to me it doesn't fit definition of formlessness. Imho its when obvious aspects of form undergo cessation then its real 5th jhana. In this sense I would say formless jhanas you need to have at the very least 1st Path but even then its something that isn't at all clear how to do while in comparison concentrating up to 5th jhana is relatively easy. At Anagami person might not even be focusing at subtle qualities of form but have cessation of them because these qualities are 'loud' in comparison and mind at this point is aware of the issues of what it considers loud and kinda by default goes one by one and works with them to bring them down to center - Nibbana - thus cessation thus formless 5th jhana is inevitable. Talking from experience here.

Then again we talk dukkha nanas so its closer to the axis of 3rd jhana - which when its dukkha have not the right 'sign' and rather goes in to negative to aversion and therefore isn't jhana. Space here isn't "infinite". Infinite space wouldn't cause mind which monitors for amount of space around you to freak out. If the space itself underwent cessation its just no response from it to fuel that mind. And even for the subtlest of subtle impressions which might remain after bulk of the mind underwent cessation the 'last state registered' would be of ad infinitum and not of it being too small for comfort. Of course such subtle impression which hold last state are part of mind which generate given state but its worth pointing to their existence because when working with things which do have a state to which there is reactivity it might be that what feels in mind like generating state is obvious enough - then we cause its cessation but then its not necessarily 'pure' as in lacking in ability for responses to it to arise. In this case its not even cessation of mind generating responses that matters but doing the cessation in the right way as to avoid there being a the so called 'remainder'.

...but then again this level is the so called '4th Path' levels with having consciousness of such issues being at most that part of late 3rd path where mind rapidly works through that stuff.

For typical person DN ending it via details of its dukkha I would say is:
- unlikely
- still there is a value in trying
- there is risk to cling to results of trying even thought they are...
- ...most likely to be time limited - as mind picks up on things which weren't done correctly
Or in other words trying to 'end' DN at early stages of development usually resembles lots of trying and some results which seem like they work but dukkha will inevitably arise and with always what feels like sooner than expected and at times even though it feels subtler and more manageable it might also feel in some aspects worse. I at times had realization that "I am not freaking out as much but something about it now feels like its even more painful". Of course it is due to being sloppy and not finishing things. This kind of experience is what motivates mind to when it does cessation of dukkha to be thorough and go through things which at this moment don't cause expressions of dukkha in mind as its this experience which gives proof that the way things feel to be like and the way they actually are is not the same.

Anyhoo, ending dukkha caused by mind which monitors space when this space contracts by cessation of mind which causes impressions of space - might very well be jumping too far ahead. Then again person doesn't get experience to be later ahead when they don't work with material of this ahead. One always does such jumps to progress. How big the jumps should be depends and there is no general rule. Usually its best to just go with intuition as its intuition which knows how much we ca handle if we do jump ahead a lot and cause issues by failing to live up to hype caused by intuition. Jumping ahead more isn't even really possible unless person causes something by chance - which might happen when by inducing risk for it via e.g. too much practice (yes, one can meditate too much!) where changes are not as intended. I mean person can be more aware of intuition and working with it make as big jumps in to thing which are being worked through as it shows up or perhaps do smaller movement to better work through stuff - and even if someone is in this sense careful but induces risk of issues by for example forcing meditation (as people at times do starting to meditate multiple hours a day when they are completely not ready for it) which can end up in issues. The so called intuition will of course show risks - but one can very well learn to ignore intuition and take it as some kind of nagging sensation which is to be ignored. In fact I'd say most if not all people who end up with issues too strong to handle by them were ignoring intuition. Maybe at first doing less than it suggested to do and by that moving slowly but surely and feeling that this way work extremely well for them with clear path to victory ahead but then by the same rule when intuition showed issues - potentiality of experiencing things bad they would ignore sensations indicating potential crash from which intuition has no idea how to recover they force meditation and eventually crash.

Anyways, its best to listen to intuition and not chew more than one can handle.
It isn't at all the same thing as not chewing larger bites. It is just not chewing more than one can really handle.

In this case I'd say DN is an opportunity to explore. Will that exploration immediately yield finding perfect solutions? It is unlikely. It might very well yield knowledge of what things do something, what doesn't and what issues there might still be with these better methods.

What are 'methods'?
Anything really that is done.
Not doing anything during DN is also a method to make it pass away quicker. It might very well be one of the best things person might do. If it is intuition will give hints to not try to resolve the issue by doing anything.

From things for dukkha nanas which I can personally vouch for is to rather than focusing on ending DN and relief focus on reducing clinging to pleasure of these states or secluding oneself from sensuality of it. It will very vell feel like trying to do something not fitting the situation. As something that is nonsense. Yet mind will resist it the same as it does for actually pleasant states!!! Mind can in this case if it does seclude oneself from sensuality seemingly flip sign and it will feel it clinged to jhanic bliss which now by the same mechanism as jhanas described by Buddha work will become more and better jhanic bliss.

In effect DN will shift from aversion to dukkha and clinging to relief which causes more dukkha to sukkha and mind still clinging to it as opposed landing on cessation/Nibbana. It is easier to land on Nibbana from this 'side' of this experience and it is the skillful action/method dealing with dukkha. It also makes sense how it works but the how it works might take some time to understand. Longer than to learn this as universal way to deal with dukkha.

What I am implying here is that Dark Night / dukkha nanas are sustained by pleasure. It isn't jhanic bliss but something that is close and yet as far away as it can be of the same basic type. It is possible to convince mind to shift from what it uses for relief (which is this pleasure that causes dukkha) to jhanas by secluding oneself from sensuality of jhanas and the way jhanas get stronger the closer mind is to Nibbana it wll cause mind to when it flips sign to experience it is causing itself more pleasure and motivate to act like it was not aversive toward experience but clinged to pliss and in effect experience more bliss while clinging less to it (seclude oneself from it) in effect making DN pleasant nanas.

It won't work if you try to make bliss stronger by means of clinging more to it. Then in fact mind will just see increase of its own aversion and won't be ready to do anything to anything. It is tricky trick but it can be learned and its an amazing skill to have. If you do it you might get impression DN is the most blissful nana. Not 'the best' as its still low energy nana and it only works when you don't cling to it so nothing about tendency to not want to be in DN will change.

BTW that would be jumping to 2nd Path material. Imho try it, listen to intuition no not miss what it tells is possible and risks and dont cling to anything. What is possible intuition knows by experiencing it. If you try it it will at first happen in where it wont make that much difference. Might be very subtle but you might experience blips of sukha happening - then don't cling to them but continue secluding oneself from sensuality while being aware of what it does to those blissful experiences. If you do it mindfully like I describe your mind won't need any more proof to seclude oneself from sensuality and will become blissful. Just don't cling to this bliss, don't see it as solution of DN or try to experience more of it because that is aversion talking. Rahter where you feel like bliss should happen somewhere seclude yourself from sensuality of that bliss. That will cause bliss which feels extremely strong where it is to undergone cessation and where you feel dukkha/aversion to get bliss. Do it like that and mind will much quicker than it normally would happen land on EQ. The EQ 'normally' happens because mind does this but if this is not done consciously like I prescribe mind will at one point (at end of 10th nana "Knowledge of reflective contemplation") happen in short burst and normally might be hard to notice. In fact because we are more aware of as I call it 'levels' and not 'signs' it will feel something filled the mind and it along with the suffering quickly dropped. If you at early EQ ponder at what happened you will eventually (might require few EQs t happen) notice how memory of it wasn't unpleasant but how inertia of mind finished something for you despite it was becoming good. The good vibes of EQ are these 'remainders' I mentioned earlier in this post of this sign flip that happened last moments in 10th nana - or first moments of 11th nana or in-between - and of course where to put this event isn't important but to be mindful of it.

Metta Fruitions,

p.s. I describe method to do it consciously and stuff that happens when you don't do it - this is not a logical error. With the amount of these cycles and especially increase speed with which they will happen later it will be inevitable to be able to study these things from different sides. Aim at mindfully/consciouslly doing them - which isn't impression you do anything but things happening clearly with right comprehension. The what does what and how it feels depends on which mirror you use to look at it... or to avoid silly dharma/spiritual language: depends on which 'feedback ' method mind use. It is development of better feedback methods (or 'mirrors' if someone already lost the plot) that allow to see things in greater detail and without identification with them that allows to see naturally occurring phenomena (btw. it also include what we consider volitional action! as it and what happens are two different things) in better details and allow to come up with better methods to handle issues. Here to change DN to feel like it will for a moment much earlier to avoid dukkha. In fact nothing I described here is 'always happen' development.
Or to put it differently things which need to happen to shift to EQ are not the same things as person learns how to do because what we learn how to do is what we do while having opportunity to learn. If you develop in such a way to just sit mindfully. That is why to even say one can make DN pleasant in this way can be contentious. What I will however use as kinda proof it is right way to do it: did Buddha say his Enlightenment and his teachings required people to suffer through occasional hell? What did he advocate for practice? Yeah... kinda this, isn't it? To seclude oneself from sensuality... I mean... what Buddha would say to his disciple reporting arising sensations of terror or disgust? Probably not blabber about details but its just my character virtue.
p.s.2. Yes, virtue, not flaw. I should probably seclude myself from my best virtues but then again in practice I did. Knowledge/insight of 99% of this post is not needed for practice. It is retrospective description using faculty of sense of self. In practice sense of self is not needed to describe it to you what you did and definitely what you will do. What matters in-practice doing something and being mindful of what has been done and what results it yielded to next time do it better.