During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge

During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge Pawel K 5/27/24 6:26 PM
RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge Adi Vader 5/27/24 7:33 PM
RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge Dream Walker 5/27/24 8:16 PM
RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge Adi Vader 5/27/24 10:21 PM
RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge Adi Vader 5/27/24 11:20 PM
RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge Martin 5/28/24 12:55 AM
RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge Adi Vader 5/28/24 1:34 AM
RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge Dream Walker 5/28/24 2:47 AM
RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge Adi Vader 5/28/24 3:48 AM
RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge Pawel K 5/28/24 4:01 AM
RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge Dream Walker 5/27/24 8:19 PM
RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge Pawel K 5/28/24 5:12 AM
RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge Matt Jon Rousseau 5/28/24 3:56 AM
RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge shargrol 5/28/24 6:47 AM
RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge Chris M 5/28/24 8:03 AM
RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge Chris M 5/28/24 8:05 AM
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 5/27/24 6:26 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/27/24 6:26 PM

During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
I was checking what inventor of Mahasi Noting, the Mahasi Sayadaw said about his path/method and one quote strucked me:
When the meditator gets full satisfaction from the exercises to attain speedily the fruition knowledge of the first path, as also to abide therein for a long time, he should strive to attain the higher paths. He must then make an ardent wish in this manner, having determined a definite period for striving: “During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge. May there be no recurrence of that knowledge! May I attain to the higher path, the path I have not yet attained! May I reach that goal!” With this ardent wish, he should, as usual, notice bodily and mental processes.

URL: https://www.bps.lk/olib/bp/bp503s_Mahasi_Practical-Insight-Meditation.pdf - page 42

Matches my experience perfectly. I first mastered each fruition type and then after that made resolve to not use them. Not do anything that I knew would cause fruitions I already knew. I also practiced concentration - ability to have only object of concentration arise in mind as it was only experience in existence and to be able to synchronize to this experience. Improving temporal precision of concentration and of course noticing sensations.

Now on to the question: How would you describe difference between various Path fruits.
These descriptions missed me in MCTB1 and DhO. I have my ideas but I would rather hear what others have to say about the differences.

Kind regards,
Pawel

p.s. @moderation - I only want to discuss Theravada model.
To me it looks like Mahasi Sayadaw points to something. I want to verify if my own understanding of this model is correct.
I also resolved to not use any fruition or other developments which could interfere with practice (from other axes of development - like I did it in the past) just to check if I am missing anything on Theravada path. Should be fun exercise!
Adi Vader, modified 1 Month ago at 5/27/24 7:33 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/27/24 7:33 PM

RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge

Posts: 329 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
Each magga nana and phala nana are exactly identical.

A lokuttara citta arises. An awareness or knowing which is completely untouched by any conditioning and it takes nibbana as its object.

A brief moment of powerful awareness of a kind never experienced outside of a magga nana or phala nana.

The anuloma, gotrabhu are different in character depending on which mark of existence is prominent - anicca dukkha anatta

​​​​​​​The paccavekhana is the only nana that is different depending on the path attained.
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Dream Walker, modified 1 Month ago at 5/27/24 8:19 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/27/24 7:58 PM

RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge

Posts: 1759 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Pawel K
Hi
I was checking what inventor of Mahasi Noting, the Mahasi Sayadaw said about his path/method and one quote strucked me:
Said about his method? What about his method? The whole book? 
I was wondering about what Buddha said...apparently there is a couple little books about that.... (VAGUE as F)
When the meditator gets full satisfaction from the exercises to attain speedily the fruition knowledge of the first path, as also to abide therein for a long time, he should strive to attain the higher paths. He must then make an ardent wish in this manner, having determined a definite period for striving: “During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge. May there be no recurrence of that knowledge! May I attain to the higher path, the path I have not yet attained! May I reach that goal!” With this ardent wish, he should, as usual, notice bodily and mental processes.
URL: https://www.bps.lk/olib/bp/bp503s_Mahasi_Practical-Insight-Meditation.pdf - page 42
The next paragraph puts it in context....at least I think so....

Matches my experience perfectly. I first mastered each fruition type and then after that made resolve to not use them. Not do anything that I knew would cause fruitions I already knew. I also practiced concentration - ability to have only object of concentration arise in mind as it was only experience in existence and to be able to synchronize to this experience. Improving temporal precision of concentration and of course noticing sensations.
Perhaps you might unpack this a bit.-
  1. What matches your experience?
  2. What is mastery?
  3. What type?
  4. Use them?


Now on to the question: How would you describe difference between various Path fruits.
These descriptions missed me in MCTB1 and DhO. I have my ideas but I would rather hear what others have to say about the differences.
You seem to throw out there that you know something about this, without describing anything.
 The Descriptions missed you? Perhaps you missed the descriptions. Perhaps now that you have not missed them, you might comment. Or Rather not say anything and listen to others....shrug...

(PS - you might google - site:www.dharmaoverground.org calling up fruitions)​​​​​​​

Kind regards,
Pawel

p.s. @moderation - I only want to discuss Theravada model.
To me it looks like Mahasi Sayadaw points to something. I want to verify if my own understanding of this model is correct.
I also resolved to not use any fruition or other developments which could interfere with practice (from other axes of development - like I did it in the past) just to check if I am missing anything on Theravada path. Should be fun exercise!
Have fun exercising! I'd love to hear how tthat works out, if you wish tto share anything, unlike this time.
~D
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Dream Walker, modified 1 Month ago at 5/27/24 8:16 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/27/24 8:16 PM

RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge

Posts: 1759 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Adi Vader
Each magga nana and phala nana are exactly identical.
A lokuttara citta arises. An awareness or knowing which is completely untouched by any conditioning and it takes nibbana as its object.
A brief moment of powerful awareness of a kind never experienced outside of a magga nana or phala nana.
The anuloma, gotrabhu are different in character depending on which mark of existence is prominent - anicca dukkha anatta
​​​​​​​The paccavekhana is the only nana that is different depending on the path attained.
Are you just quoting some stuff you found? If so, you might point to that.

If whatever you said has anything to do with your direct experience, maybe you might talk about it without using Pali that is not defined by you or who/whatever.
Just a suggestion.
I have no idea what you are saying, of course I didn't really track Pawel either....but thats my lack, glad you can respond so much to that part of his post that you understand. (whatever part that is)
~D
Adi Vader, modified 1 Month ago at 5/27/24 10:21 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/27/24 10:21 PM

RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge

Posts: 329 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
Lol emoticon
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Adi Vader, modified 1 Month ago at 5/27/24 11:20 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/27/24 11:20 PM

RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge

Posts: 329 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
If there is any part of what I have written that is unclear to you, and if you are interested, then feel free to ask well drafted pointed questions. I will attempt to supply answers that might clarify. I usually respond with generosity and benevelonce when I see warmth, friendship, and politeness.

In any case:
anuloma, gotrabhu, magga, phal, paccavekhana are nanas or 'knowledges' on the Progress of Insight map devised by the Arhat Sariputta, further refined in turn by the Bhadanta Acharya Buddhaghosh, used by Mahasi Sayadaw in his books.
Martin, modified 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 12:55 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 12:55 AM

RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge

Posts: 907 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
I have to ask what makes you say that Sariputta devised the Progress of Insight map? I didn't think there was any mention of the POI in the suttas. 
Adi Vader, modified 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 1:34 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 1:34 AM

RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge

Posts: 329 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
The progress of insight map shows up in the patisambhidamagga in a crude form. This work is usually attributed to the arhat Sariputta. This is part of the tipitaka and is considered canon.

The patisambhidamagga isnt structured as a description of meditative maps and thus references to the meditative 'knowledges' are not accompanied by detailed descriptions like Buddhaghosa's work.

There are a few suttas attributed to Siddharth Gautam that allude to meditative progressions. Being suttas they are highly compressed and have sketchy detailing.

​​​​​​​One sutta I can immediately think of is the rathavinita sutta - the relay of chariots.
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Dream Walker, modified 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 2:47 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 2:47 AM

RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge

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Adi Vader
Hi!
If there is any part of what I have written that is unclear to you, and if you are interested, then feel free to ask well drafted pointed questions.
I would love to ask a question or two, unfortunately I have no idea of which version/definition/translation you are using. Without that spot to start at and since you are not using english, I find it impossible to ask anything.
I will attempt to supply answers that might clarify.
I would love that. Especially if you are speakingg from your direct experience. I have no idea if that is the case or if you are justt quoting sometthing from somewhere, as you did nott respond in any way to my previous post.
I usually respond with generosity and benevelonce when I see warmth, friendship, and politeness.
I'm gonna guess that this means I'm being interpereted as an agressive asshat. Again. My failure in being terse with not enough smily faces emoticon

In any case:
anuloma, gotrabhu, magga, phal, paccavekhana are nanas or 'knowledges' on the Progress of Insight map devised by the Arhat Sariputta, further refined in turn by the Bhadanta Acharya Buddhaghosh, used by Mahasi Sayadaw in his books.
I have found quite a bit of variance in (stuff) and posted about it in the past. I'm cool with rehashing it again but I gotta start from a starting point that I understand.
emoticon emoticon emoticon
~D
Adi Vader, modified 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 3:48 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 3:48 AM

RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge

Posts: 329 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
Ok, cool.

I will translate in plain English. And also elaborate. I am speaking purely from direct experience. I borrow language from others as and when I find that it is suitable to describe direct experience.

1. Each path moment, as well as fruition is precisely the same in its experience
2. Each is preceeded by a quality of mind where awareness isnt polluted by any conditioning - including the conditioned phenomena of greed hatred and delusion. This experience can only be understood in juxtaposition with its opposite - an awareness shaped, folded, polluted by conditioning
3. In this quality of mind the mind starts to track one of three patterns. These patterns then become objects and the underlying objects which these patterns describe are ignored. The mind either latches on to unreliability, inability to satisfy, inability to own experience as well as experiencing.
4. The mind with this unpolluted quality, dumps all objects. There is a bright powerful experience of awareness having absolutely no object to be aware of, not even patterns, nor awareness itself.
itself.
5. Each path moment, each fruition associated with a path moment can be described exactly in this fashion. So there is a sameness to each path and fruit moment.
6. Each path moment followed by a fruit moment involves the conditioned mind arising again looking within itself and finding some specific conditioning missing.
7. The path and fruit moment of sotapanna, as well as subsequents fruitions before attaining to other paths are followed by the conditioned mind rearising and looking back and discovering that a compulsive search for reliability is now missing
8. The path and fruit moment of sakadagami -anagami and subsequent fruitions before attaining to arhat path are followed by the conditioned mind rearising and looking back and discovering that addiction to vedana - compulsion to grab the positive, compulsion to push away the negative is significantly reduced at sagadagami - eliminated at anagami
9. The path and fruit moment of arhat and subsequent fruitions in case practice continues, are followed by the conditioned mind rearising and looking back at itself to realize that a desperate search to establish a self/ownership/appropriation is completely eliminated.


In short
a. What precedes a path and fruit or a subsequent fruition comes in 3 flavours
b. Each path and fruit moment or subsequent fruition is exactly the same. No variance. - best described as ' the lokuttara citta taking nibbana as its object' As you can see I am not in the nibbana = oblivion gang emoticon
c. Depending on the path achieved what happens immediately after a path and fruit moment or subsequent fruition has 4 different flavours. It is a knowledge, like looking and knowing.

Hope this clarifies my experience and provides food for thought / discussion.

I am willing to answer all questions that come from a position of friendship, politeness, and genuine desire for respectful engagement emoticon

Also I understand the position of being 'that guy' who insists that quality of conversation be high and basis direct experience. It is for the health of the community I understand emoticon
Matt Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 3:56 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 3:56 AM

RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge

Posts: 203 Join Date: 5/1/22 Recent Posts
This is fascinating I didn't know they were maps of date back to the sutas
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 4:01 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 4:01 AM

RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Adi,

Adi Vader
Each magga nana and phala nana are exactly identical.
...

Well, actually yes they are but also as a whole no, not at all.

There is a definite progression in skill regarding these things and their resolution.
By resolution I mean both resolution of perception of sensations which is related to skill of concentration but also the resolve to not use at this point 'crude workarounds'. Fruit of 1st Path being light years above whatever mind normally uses before SE but it still seems like crude way to do things compared 2nd Path fruit. Then 2nd Path feels like momentarily going insane just to do cessation and 3rd Path fruit is in this sense pure. Then 4th Path makes 3rd Path fruit crude in comparison.

Then despite this it is as you say - it is kinda the same thing.

Then again if Arhat says to you they are the same does it mean that after attaining 1st Path you expect 2nd Path fruit to be exactly the same as 1st? Let alone 3rd and 4th...

I don't see Anagami causing or having any 'blips'. Myself I had single 1st Path fruition in the middle of 3rd Path. Instead of taking it as a good coin I figured I need stronger more inclusive resolution and to keep my mind even purer. Even from the things I did at the beginning of 3rd Path which already lacked aby blips. That sharpened my mind enough to be wary of even truly 'momentary blips' as in what didn't feel like one full pulse of brain activity and more like single moments at a time - not even letting myself use that and which had me eventually done in. There isn't any 'cessation' at 4th Path, not even single moments of ceasing of activity. Its too clear this activity happens at moments. Mind need not cause it unconditionally - that is what the fruit of 4th Path is. It doesn't need any cessation like that.

Then again nothing about it is unimaginable after attaining 1st Path. Its continuous mode (as Mahasi Sayadaw states it to abide therein for a long time - which by the way is my definition of 1st Path - just having a blip from time to time not really doing much for insight and doesn't need right concentration) is showing clearly mind arises in separate pulses with 99% of the experience being Nibbana. There is just no way mind when it arises to resolve itself to not arise. That is why the need to work with mind and right resolve gradually upping the restraint until mind cannot do as it pleases and just stops arising by itself. Then its no-mind until its kindly asked to arise and that is the 'flip', the big change that happens.

4th Path is pretty much something that can be already experienced after attaining 1st Path. Just much more refined and skillful and in a sense inconceivable even at this point. It only becomes conceivable when not even allowing oneself any form of cessation whatsoever...

...or as I always called it insight/attitude of 'no relief'.
And yes, it is kinda heart-breaking to not allow oneself to abide in fruits of Paths.
But then again it isn't. For resolution to be meaningful you have to feel ready to do it like that. Otherwise its not right resolve but merely a pretend and doesn't cause Path. These things won't work unless mind is ready to abandon these fruits for the rest of the life. It works because you feel deep down inside it is right thing to do. It cannot really happen when you cling to and chase relief/fruitions.

Kind Regards,
Pawel

p.s. Totally not over-dramatic with the "for the rest of your life" here. Either you are doing it or not!
Mahasi Sayadaw is a sly fox! His definite period for striving is the rest of your lifetime and you should know it without him telling you that. That is why I personally like the guy. I mean, I shouldn't then like myself for being so explicit but it is I guess different style for different set and settings. I wouldn't tell monks everything if I could use ambiguous stories where things where breakthrough happened after right resolve was made that have nothing to do with meditation practices. Then I would talk with monks and be like "ah, its not it, you need to contemplate more on it and practice" never saying what is the "it" that I am looking for. Then again I wouldn't expect such ambiguity on DhO and for that reason I am not being this ambiguous either. Too much risk in being ambiguous in front of lay people.
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Pawel K, modified 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 5:12 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 5:12 AM

RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Dream Walker,

You seem to throw out there that you know something about this, without describing anything.
The Descriptions missed you? Perhaps you missed the descriptions. Perhaps now that you have not missed them, you might comment.

The descriptions that missed me is how the fruition knowledge differs between the paths and the need to resolve to not use fruits of Paths.
Not phenomenological difference between paths. I am after the essence here.

(PS - you might google - site:www.dharmaoverground.org calling up fruitions)​​​​​​​

Obviously callable if they are to be called as "mastered".
Not only callable but continuous as in to abide therein for a long time.

Perhaps you might unpack this a bit.-
1. What matches your experience?
2. What is mastery?
3. What type?
4. Use them?


1. Doing it like Mahasi Sayadaw said. I was always considering myself on Noble Eight-fold Path and Buddha talks about perfecting oneself and dispassion toward things which bring pleasure. I found dispassion and aversion kinda the same at first but then again the point is to work through the difference. Then it was obvious I should be also dispassionate toward fruit of 1st Path, then fruit of 2nd Path, etc.

2. Calling fruition at will and being able to abide in it. Not much prep needed.

3. Different Paths - different fruits. If you resolve to not eat grapes and find apple tree you will eat apples. Then if you realize "ah, I was eating fruits of 2nd Path then you resolve to not eat apples either and then after some time you find banana tree you eat bananas. Then you resolve to not eat these either. Then you resolve to not eat bananas. For the last fruit descriptions miss me. I'd say its maybe mangos?
Anyways, the point is that these fruits are different.

4. If you can use 1st Path fruit or allow it to happen what would be the point in finding 2nd Path fruit?
IMHO for 1st Path requires the same resolution. There were things I always did to avoid dukkha. Not very skillful things but nothing which if I continued to use would necessitate attaining 1st Path. Its more obvious what these things are by these things breaking focus on the practice but then again I myself differentiated between "solutions to dukkha" (each Path fruit would be example of such solution) and made a resolution to not use them. Actually what I thought Buddha had in mind by dispassion to heedless mind.

Said about his method? What about his method? The whole book?
I was wondering about what Buddha said...apparently there is a couple little books about that.... (VAGUE as F)

I didn't practice Theravada method until few years after I had 1st Path.
Method as in method of practicing meditation - which really is 24/7 ordeal. Not using e.g. fruit of 1st Path means not using it 24/7 period. Also means not causing it to arise. Also means not using Nibbana if it feels like 1st Path fruition. I mean obviously fruit of 1st Path when you abide therein for a long time isn't a blip.

Or Rather not say anything and listen to others....shrug...

I get the value of vagueness but I myself don't value it at all. Many reasons for this attitude.
People should focus on themselves and practice and not who attained what to then repeat what they said like parrots like it ever impressed anyone. In such case they are likely to repeat nonsense anyways because it is more popular.

It is the Mahasi Sayadaw himself who said person need to be able to dwell in fruit of 1st Path and make resolution to not use this fruit to get 2nd Path.
If anyone believes me and what I say including my claims I really don't care. Do the practice, improve resolution of concentration, make right resolve, attain bunch of paths repeating this process until mind stops and then and only then we will be able to have meaningful discussion about what I do care about.

Kind Regards,
Pawel
shargrol, modified 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 6:47 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 6:47 AM

RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge

Posts: 2564 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Pawel, what are you searching for here? 

I'm asking because you seem to be doing your old pattern of asking a vague question about a tradition and then debating the answers you get because they don't match your experience --- it's the same old pattern again.

Adi's answer was very generous and I don't think you took the time to really read it. You are just using other's replys as a springboard for more of your narrative... just like I'm sure you will do with this post.

​​​​​​​Is it really worth continuing this behavior if it gets you banned from here?

If you are able find quotes from Mahasi, then you should be able to read MCTB and DhO too. If you are just seeking information, just do some reading. Why do you need to ask the question in the first place, and then argue against all the answers, unless you are just seeking attention and entertainment?
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 8:03 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 8:03 AM

RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge

Posts: 5331 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Pawel K --

We agreed that you would contain your commentary to one topic—your previous topic. Please don't create a new topic for every thought or issue that arises for you. We don't want a traveling thrash raging across multiple topics due to your confusing commentary.

Thank you,

Chris M
DhO Moderator
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 8:05 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/28/24 8:05 AM

RE: During this period I do not wish to experience the fruition knowledge

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Freezing this topic now...

Breadcrumb