Hi AEN, I read the link you left DZ, and I have to say, it really excited me , because I feel you have pointed out where I may be at, where I may be still clinging etc and why. Do you mind if I ask a favour, ill understand if its too much hassle because this post is pretty long , but is it possible you could attempt to diagnose me to an extent, and maybe just double check my practice that ive laid out at the end to see if Im at least on the right track. I would hate to think Im overemphasising one thing, and making no progress elsewhere as a result etc.

The post is long, but all the quotes are your own words so theres probably no need to read them properly if you get me.
Any advice or pointers would be greatly appreciated.

Im also aware that I may sound very overconfident here when I say "yep I can relate to this, that , etc". But to constantly play down my day to day experience doesnt serve as any use, because people then tend to advise you of things you already know.

On the flip side, Im not typing this to have my experiences validated or confirmed, Ive little interest in trying to prove where im 'at', the only thing that interests me is getting an honest assessment and being given the most optimum practice advice I can possibly get.
So shoot me down please if you feel Im getting ahead of myself regarding realizations claims.

Before I get quoting, here is brief summary of my experience to date...

- seperation between "me" and another object has taken a huge hit, I see no distance now between me and an object, however like mentioned in your post, there is still that clinging to a source.
- I cant self reflect anymore. its empty, if I ever do its when Im writing here about myself or talking to someone, when on my own this self reflection is next to impossible, even at times when looking in the mirror, however that isnt to claim that there isnt identification, attachment, and clinging going on by any means.
- that wow factor you talk of happens quite a bit when looking at nature, and Im at peace/empty most of the time, I know it can be FAR more intense than how im experiencing it at present because Ive touched on it.
- still a hint of an experiencer , even if its ridiculously subtle.
- bliss happens alot, not all the time.
- psychological fear and inhibitions still present but always fading, its taking more and more to bring it out. But for instance, today I have to make a call I dont want to make , and there is an inhibition about it, sort of putting it off. Its very sublte but remains there.



EXPERIENCE:

- I believe i first hit this a year ago, and was probably in denial that I Was losing sight of it, but since beginning more intense practice from 6 months ago onwards I believe it is now stable. If its what Im thinking, its the core of my perceptual shift from April 2011, Id call it an indescribable emptiness that for the most part does not go away, and with good concentration practice and a deepening of insight, becomes more and more prominent.



-I cant say I ever thought anything was being controlled by a higher intelligence etc, but have definitely experienced no personal doer alot, and still do quite alot, especially if its paid attention to. Sometimes I pay attention to it alot for the sake of self inquiry. And sometimes its very natural and obvious (walking down the street is usually when its most noticeable)


- I have good reason to think that is what happened me in March, 2 months on now, and while the intensity of the change has subsided, the core experience that DID change hasnt really went away .

- No, I cant say I have ever completely 100% dropped the experiencer even if at times I got very good glimpses of it. Im happy Ive had glimpses though because it keeps me grounded in terms of practice and what to aim for.



- Im not sure I fully understand this, so Im assuming I havent even had an experience of this.

REALIZATION:

- I cant say i can relate to this, at least not until you talk of it being experience in a NDNCDIMOP way.

- I experience this quite alot alright, even right now as I type I would say this is the case on a subtle level.


- I can say with a fair degree of confidence that I can definitely relate to all this alright, both the vase analogy, but also the clinging, and sense of personality and locality (even if very subtle)


My personal experience is that from day 1, more than a year ago this was the most noticeable thing about my whole shift in perception, simply looking at trees and nature, cars moving, people moving, and almost feeling a sweet clear warmth off it, the Wow was definitely there,
HOWEVER, this came and went alot as the year progressed, sometimes it went entirely, other times it was so intense that the wonder of it would genuinely excite me. Sadly , often the intense times were after strange circumstances like drinking alcohol the night before, or after going for a long long run.

That said,since March, most of my days are like a subtle version of your description, sometimes a little more boring but there, other times very intense, that leaves me not being sure whether Im still in 'experience' mode or if Ive actually attained the insight. I know it may seem arrogant and presumptious to beleive Im hitting these type of realizations so soon, but I can honestly say that a simple walk down the street, or sitting out the back garden is , for the most part, a very enjoyable experience for me now, i.e. if the settings are just right (warm, sunny, slightly breezy) I could sit there for quite a while watching a tree blowing in the wind., not to mention a sort of wonder at the fact that there is no real distance or seperation between "me" and the tree(or whatever). I know this is very airy fairy sounding stuff, but I have to honestly convey that it is the core of my experience now.


- This reminds me of my experience now, I can definitely relate to this clinging/trap/beleif.


- I fear this is what I may be doing right now, also , im not sure if im ever hitting those temporary peak experiences.


- Im not even sure if im hitting this in my peak experiences, maybe something very close , but it seems so damn certain that I dont think I could say with confidence that Im even having brief experiences of this.

- sounds like my experience alright ( the belief of the linking/supported/jointed nature that is)

- again, with a great degree of confidence I would say this is NOT my experience.


Having thoroughly read this your description of this realization, I can say that I havent attained, but do have at least an intellectual understanding of it, and perhaps from time to time had very subtle glimpses of it.


-This is what gives me confidence in having attained I AM, and perhaps non-dual, but nothing more. I cant understand how people would settle with this, the way I see it is, if there is ANY form of conflict, even in the most subtle subtle way, even if your life has become incredibly liberated and 100 free-er than before, then you still have lots of work to do.



I have read the difference between your gradual and direct, and feel Im doing both, as I mentioned a posts earlier, I have begun to drop the "no self" dogma, and tried to gear my practice elsewhere...


Could I ask what do you mean exactly by luminosity, I see you mention this quite a bit, but am unsure as to what you are referring to.



Regarding my practice, could you tell me if Im on the right track, whether Im wrong about what realizations Ive attained or not...


1. Ive began attempting to investigate the subject/object split (id been doing this for a while, but just not realizing I was doing it specifically the way it was described here, my descsription was that I was attempting to see how all experience was only that, an experience, e.g. 'that object over there is only an image here' etc etc).
2. Vipassana during sits, and during walks, and whever I think of it during the day.
3. Concentration breathing during sits, (usually I bring this into a more vipasssana excersise after approx 20 mins)
4. I spend alot of the rest of the day simply sinking into the reality around me , or experiencing no doer etc, however Im not sure if all this is productive, it doesnt feel productive, it more feels like im resting in whatever Ive attained so far.
5. Self inquiry,"is this the self?" from time to time, some intense looking also, basically a repeat of the direct pointing process I went through to attain the initial 'opening'.

Can I ask aswell, how did your progression in terms of reduction in suffering go? I know we all come from different 'suffering' backgrounds, my main one being fear over anything else.
Did each new insight/realization drop another chunk of suffering quite quickly? Was it a gradual thing? Did your stream of temporary experiences alone help you reduce suffering for the long term or were you completely reliant on realization?
Did you add anything else to the mix like challenging your beliefs if something is bothering you?
Personally I find simple breathing concentration is doing wonders, but I cant tell if its that, or the other types of insight that is contributing most. But I really wont be without any form of conflict until there is no fear, at least pscychological fear that arises from conceptual beleifs, ( what I mean by that is I wont mind if I feel fear/adrenalin if it looks like im about to be knocked down by a car for instance)

If Im to be perfecfly honesty, I even place the eradication of fear a priority over attaining all the realizations. While Ive made great progress, and while for the most part , nobody in my life would probably even notice any of my fear, I still find myself opting not to do tougher things, or at least putting things off out of fear. And I can say with confidence that since I was a child, fear and the protection of an ego have been the core reasons I have always "played it safe" and thus put limits on the experience of my life compare to even some very 'unawakened' people (ok off topic rant over !!)

I know this is a long post, if you can offer any help Id really appreciate it thanks.

Anyway, getting back to practice.
DZ, thanks again for the subject/object reminder, its funny how you can hear something several times but the importance of it doesnt click properly until a certain stage in your path.

Ive been really giving focus on this during the day and its already yielding slight insight/experience.
It seems sometimes you can be half looking/investigating something, but due to a lack of words or guidance as to what you are doing its not clicking, so upon giving that more intense focus it doesnt take much to practice it.

My sits are really hit or miss the past few days. While Im always in a semi-alert and very relaxed state I still find myself being lost in very very subtle thought, not even bad thought , just thought of all sorts. Its hard to describe the difference between being lost in thought now during a sit, and being lost in thought even a few months ago, its like its in the background now or something, but still takes up my attention.

This obviously doesnt happen throughout the whole sit by any means, but enough to make me realize its not a high quality meditation session.
I also cant seem to break the 55min barrier , an energy overcomes me and sometimes I find myself stretching and opening my eyes before ive even realized it, even when I try get back to it, rarely do I get back into a completely relaxed tranquil state. The restlessness doesnt feel like tension in the way it would have before, more like an excitement, but a tension nonetheless.

Again, all very negative reports here, so on the upside, I can say that when I am in good concentration, there is some very solid investigation going on , trying to see 3Cs as much ass possible during a sit or a walk.
I also find myself in a state of high concentration alot more now naturally during the day than ever before.

Yesterday was a strange day, much of the first half of it, I was experiencing that on edge "fear" I do from time to time, it rarely happens anymore but still can come up alright. What I mean is, things just seem that small bit more difficult, as if Im a little more sensitive to potential fearful situations than usual. But then it faded fast by the evening.

I should probably stress, when I talk of fear, Im setting my standards high here, its not like im going around not wanting to talk to people , or are scared of every day situations, im quite a social person, and some might say , a bit of an extrovert to an extent. But when I say I want to have no psychological fear, I mean it quite literally. I want to be at a stage where no psychologically testing situation (that doesnt involve physical danger) can induce fear. Am I setting my standards too high? I dont think so, it seems part and parcel of attaining insight by many accounts. Maybe im still lost in the story/future/goal here, but Im just being honest in terms of where im at vs where I want to be.

quick update:
Ive been having some more huge changes the past few days, Id rather wait a week or so before going into detail cause I know how this stuff can behave.
Its been extraordinarily empty, blissful and peaceful at times, and its like everything is one big illusion including my body. Fear has taken another massive hit, but I need to test that in more challenging situations before I talk about it more.

Im going to be doing some cold calling for my business in the next few days, thats always a great time to test my discomfort levels!!
I knew 'something' was happening, my sleep was getting really bad and energetic again in the past few days.

However, leaving that aside for a small while Ill get back to posting about practice in a few hours.

Well its been more than a month since I last posted, my practice in all aspects seemed strong with the exception of the sitting itself, I seemed to get worse AT it, but also started to neglect it and just sat there in a sort of bliss instead, maybe one in every 5 sits would be productive, the rest were strange sits where there would either be a dull sort of mind which i could rest with for a long time, or just a happiness or excitement and Id want to get up.

In the past several months I have been having strong shifts and changes, some times truly only experiencing with no experiencer, other times seeing emptiness in everything, other times being in states of utter happiness and peace, but then at times I was confused and things seemed paradoxical.

A few events in the past few days made me realize something though, all this time, as great as it has been , Ive been building up a massive enlightened ego (a term ive robbed from adyashanti), what I mean is, each shift, and each "wow this is true non duality" feeling would only cement this ego not get rid of it. What was happening to me was I completely losing touch of other aspects and ignoring them. The ego or moreso , idea, was all about creating circumstances in my head that things should be a certain way now that im attaining these insights.

And with that there was confusion over the paradox between trying to improve my life and practising this stuff, and also at times not knowing whether it was some sort of cycle in dark night, or if my problem was something I should genuinely be looking at.

I think its one issue that largely seems to be ignored here, but its something I consider the elephant in the room, basically your "stuff", lifes issues and problems , your core beliefs and ideas that are stopping you from enjoying a life you really want to enjoy etc. You could make the argument that practice has nothing to do with your stuff, and that no one claims that it solves your problems, but thats like comparing it to any other hobby or any other field of interest. In truth , we all have to admit that we get into this because we want a better more happy fulfilling life.

That said, I shouldnt be too harsh either, I rarely suffer now, quite the contrary actually ,and many other aspects of my life have been really cleaned up as a result of this practice. Even from when I arrived here and not really understanding while I could feel no self but still went through frustration, tension and suffering, to now , has been quite impressive if i do say so myself.

So , without letting that rant go on any further Ive a plan of action for the next few weeks or months.

1. Actually get back to doing proper productive sits, which include insight, concentration, and keep the standard and stop basking in my own sense of enlightenment.

2. Read and practice the Greg Goode emptiness stuff again, that yielded tremendous results, but i would imagine its something I must keep up and really work on.

3. (this is related to my rant above), start listening to some more Western teachers who seem to have a better grasp at "1st world problems" if you follow. Adyashanti I consider to a be a good one for this. Byron Katie another.

4. Get productive WITH what the Western teachers are talking about, try and write out all my beliefs and assumptions that are making me sometimes behave or not behave in a certain way, really try and get to the root of my beliefs.

5. Drop the enlightened ego, this may take some time. Its effectively a programming Ive created where I believe things are now suppose to be happening a certain way, and Im suppose to be acting a certain way because I do practice. Whereas that bullshit.

6. Start taking advice that comes from outside of the spiritual perspective more seriously. Listen to what people have to offer.


Anyway, im actually quite positive about all this. I know dark night brings up your stuff in an exaggerated way, but I think when hitting new paths or your basking in bliss, happiness and peace, you are just as much masking stuff as well.

Some practice suggestions:


CASE ONE

Examine whether, when you experience something that you associate with a shift and it cements your ego, there is

1) the shift: some change in your experience, some lack of a dualistic mental process that was previously occuring
2) a feeling about the shift: "wow, look at this shift / this experience, no (or less) duality!"

CASE TWO

Similarly, examine whether, when you're "basking in bliss", there is

1) the bliss: some kind of pleasantness that is prior to any reflection on it
2) a feeling about the bliss: "wow, this feels great!"

(In case two, it's easy to mix up the feeling about the bliss with the bliss itself. It may seem that the feeling about the bliss is the thing that's blissful...however, that is an illusion. Analyze carefully, go back to what we talked about earlier regarding apparent gaps in experience and see if the feeling of "wow, this feels great!" is associated with a momentary blurriness of experience.)

If you can distinguish bliss from a feeling about bliss, then, when you're experiencing both, you can work on figuring out how to incline your mind in a way that reduces or eliminates the feeling about bliss. (A good hint is, stop caring about it / clinging to it / mentally regarding it or interacting with it in any way / etc.)

Having accomplished that, you may find that the situation in case one is exactly analogous, and the solution is exactly analogous. (Certainly, a person's beliefs and goals are major players in solidifying one's ego around the idea "I'm so enlightened!", but only if the mind is giving rise to ego-experience in the first place. If you can subdue the process that creates the experience of ego, and do it consistently, the beliefs and goals related to ego-experience will also be subdued.)



A shorter summary: don't relish any experience, and, if you can consistently bring up bliss and peace and etc., be absolutely ruthless in distinguishing between the experience and the relishing of it, and in letting go of subtler and subtler forms of relishing, without destroying the experience. Ego = relishing = unhappiness that masquerades as happiness.

Thanks, I think you pretty much nailed what my issue was,
In case 1, I had to an extent just mixed 1) and 2) together , even when attempting to be honest there was still no actual practice or mindfulness going , just a constant transition from blurry "wow look at this" to the shift itself without bothering to distinguish them.
As a matter of fact I think I may have even been arrogant enough to have a running blurry out of focus thought "Im not even experiencing that blurriness anymore"

In case 2, to be fair to me, I had made some headway in that if I felt bliss I would try and examine it and try to see there was no qualities in the physical feelings that made them "nice", i.e nice being just a concept/interpretation, but I think even in doing this I was giving the whole experience a value in itself thus cementing underlying ego thoughts "im feeling enlightened" , "this is how it should be and is going to be from now on", "i dont expect to feel crap anymore" etc etc.
So yea, just sort of disregarding it and getting back to proper practice of simple distinguishing between attention and non-attention is a better idea.




Out of curiosity how do you think someone could destroy it? Over examination of it and essentially "killing" it off?

Also, re: your suggestions of looking into Cyclothymia and Bypolar 2, its something I still havent done, I dont have any excuse for it really, and am aware that getting that sorted, be it finding out whether its an issue or not and getting it sorted if it is, could actually improve this whole practice tremendously. Im not sure would it be my GP or a professional therapist to approach, ill have to find out. Admittedly theres a bit of resistance there too though, I sort of wonder would drugs kill that ability to give something serious borderline compulsive focus and drive (even if it falls off at times).
I sort of look at the experiences I had in my life so far, and in a way I dont really regret trying all these different things, anyway, im just thinking out loud.

How do you tell the difference between 'relishing' and gratitude/appreciation? Is it just one of those subtle flavor things that you come to discern?

Personally what I've found since last posting was that when I notice something is happening, I very quickly get lost and out of focus from the shift itself to "a shift is happening", thats fine and human, i think EISs point is to get back to being attentive without necessarily trying to take apart and 'destroy' the shift.

An analogy would be trying to light a fire by rubbing sticks, when you start to see some ambers, glowing and a tiny bit of smoke, you don't stop and look at them, you keep doing what got you that far in the first place.

Since my last post things theres been a few key changes, Ive followed up on my plans (with the exception of the Greg Goode stuff)

EISs advice about discerning between shifts/feelings and the thoughts about them has done wonders and opened up alot of crap that Id be unaware Id been doing.

I can see clearly how resting in your shift/bliss REALLY contributes to the nurturing of an egoistic notion, as this notion gets stronger and stronger you can set yourself up for a fall. One bad reaction can leave you confused and annoyed.

It turns out Id be doing that alot more than I thought I was. Instead of staying grounded and continuing my efforts at being attentive I was resting in bliss etc.

The advantages of tackling this are three fold.
1. They stop those egoistic notions of enlightenment which can trap you in the long run (not saying they dont have their uses for motivation at times, but I feel at a stage where they are getting passed their sell by date for me)
2. I am practising more.
3. Im getting even closer to the understanding that this moment is perfectly fine as it is. To be more accurate, what I mean is, my attachment to where Im at, long term goals, past events,shifts , my story of liberation,and whether im feeling good or bad, are fading slowly but surely, and am closer and closer to now! While that stuff is useful, I think when abused it can become relatively dangerous.

Its not like Im trying to resist enjoying the benefits, more that I want to simply maintain mindfulness during it.

However despite all that, id be lying if I said the entire purpose of all this wasnt to feel as great as possible in the long term. Maybe thats another trap.


As for my other plans, Ive been working on some of my beliefs and notions that ignite reaction in me. I simply dont think meditation and mindfulness alone can deconstruct some untapped beliefs that can cause me to suffer when something happens. I could go weeks without getting to that part of my belief system so its possible I can be unaware of stuff and be very content only for a reaction to occur and for me to be surprised. A good example recently was a friend lying to me about something (only trivial crap), but Ive applied Byron Katies "the work" on it, and I have to say, I find it very effective as an add-on tool. It just really really exposes what is actually going on when you are caught in a bullshit situation.



My sits have improved ALOT, ive decided to reduce the time a bit to make my targets more achievable. I do pure concentration of the breath , usually when that gets extremely quiet I will begin to investigate the rest of my experience during the sit, including the breath.

Regarding my life, and motivation issues etc. I think I am finally finding peace with the notion of working off two levels of "truth", and not trying to mix practice in with whatever conventional stuff is going on in my life. This is good imo because ive heard the mention of a spiritual shipwreck before , and I think at the moment I may be one!!


While I havent had any major perceptual shifts, realizations or changes in the past week, I think Ive had several mini epiphanies that have been very important in understanding what Im actually doing here.

It's definitely worth examining how you let this come about...if I, not having your experience, was able to infer that this is what was going on with you, then you, having your experience, are in a much better position to catch this sort of thing in the future before it starts to interfere with your practice.




This is good insight (that "bliss" is not blissful or pleasant, but rather, the idea that it's pleasant arises in contrast to the facts), but you should keep in mind that there's a superior kind of experience (which you might also call "bliss", though I think "pleasure" is a better word) that is "nice" by its very nature, not dependent on concepts or interpretation. (There is also a further important insight to have concerning it, but you can figure it out once you get there.) Stronger concentration and more relaxation should produce it for you.




If the experience depends on relaxation, for example, but you get worked up in your examination of it, then that will kill it off.



If you get diagnosed but don't like what the medication you're prescribed does to you, you can take a lower dose so that the balance of pros and cons works out more to your liking, or take a different medication, or just stop and let your mind be the way it's always been. No harm done, I assume. And this way you find out whether there could be big, easy-to-reap benefits from partially or wholly treating a condition you may have.

Hi, sorry I don't always have the resource to surf this forum or the internet (especially on weekdays when I am in camp), only get to see your post now.

Then you are having NDNCDIMOP, not I AM realization.


That is the experience of non-dual. There is a difference between having intermittent experiences of non-dual rather than non-dual insight. Non-dual insight means realizing there never was duality, seeing and seen has always been seamless and nondual. This is not non-dual as a state, but realizing non-dual as always already the case, there is in seeing always just the seamlessness of seeing/seen without a separate observer, and clearly seeing through the construct of subject-object, inside and outside, as delusory/false. As for your "there is no real distance or seperation" - if you meant a temporary state where separation collapses in an experience of fusing, this is a temporary non-dual state. Non-dual realization is the sudden, direct, understanding that "there Never Is/Was in truth any real distance or subject-object seperation, and this is always already the case". In One Mind it may lead to the understanding that "Awareness is always already its own perception", that all perceptions are always only Awareness itself.

Note that even is not yet the realization of anatta, which is not just seamlessness of seeing/seen but the realization that there is no agent, no watcher, behind a thought or a perception. This is different from non-dual insight, as non-dual insight is more about seamlessness of subject and object, where seer, seeing, and seen are collapsed in one vivid luminosity.

As Thusness wrote to me before in 2010,

In the article on http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html, I mentioned about the 2 stanza. There is the no-agent aspect and there is the intensity of luminosity aspect. I find that your present experience is still centered on the luminosity aspect. You are directly experiencing seamlessness of any happening where no clear line of demarcation can be drawn between the subject-object split. You realized the boundary is purely illusionary and is clear about the cause that resulted in such division but still, that is not the ‘essence’ of an experiential insight of anatta in my opinion. There is a difference in saying "there is no split between thinking and thinker, the thinking itself is 'me'" and "there is thinking, no thinker". You must be aware that having immediate and direct experience but with dualistic framework intact and complete replacement of the dualistic framework entirely with DO (dependent origination) yields very different experiential insight; you may want to investigate further and move from "they are all flowing independently" to "manifesting in seamless inter-dependencies."
Contemplating Thusness first stanza will lead to insight of anatta and that might help.

There is completely no you, only a thought, a sight, a sound, etc. The difference between one mind is that in one mind, there is still this tracing back to a source, or seeing the source to be inseparable from its manifestation. In no mind, there is only manifestation, only action, only the flow, no source, self/Self whatsoever. But no-mind is a state of experience, not a realization of anatta, and cannot be made effortless or seamless without the realization.
That sounds good. Contemplating on Thusness two stanzas of anatta will also help in addition to what you are doing. Steve Norquist in his non-dual article http://www.spiritualteachers.org/norquist_article.htm also wrote, "If I could teach the world a lesson it would be, no matter what you experience always remind yourself, “There is no experiencer, there is no observer.” If you do this long enough and often enough you will one day know what's going on."

Gradual.


Thusness wrote something which may be relevant:


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Blogger PasserBy said...

Hi Buddha Bra,

‘Psychological pain’ is directly related to our ‘sense of self’. The sense of self is directly related our deeply rooted ‘inherent and dualistic thought’. This pain is an indication that we have not fully recognized the cause and many faces of the arising ‘sense of Self/self’ and that includes the attempt to remain as an unaffected passive observer. If we prescribe the wrong medicine, then there is no cure. Therefore your experience that “remaining as a detach observer doesn’t seem to eliminate the pain and anxiety yet breathing exercises and some physical exercises do” is a precious realization. There are 2 parts to it.

First we must realize why we equate ‘detachment’ to this ‘unaffected and passive observer’. It is due to an incomplete insight of our pristine yet non-dual and empty nature of awareness. It is partly due to our direct and non-conceptual experience of our “Unborn, pristine and luminous nature “of awareness and partly due to the karmic tendency of solidify experience. When this direct experience is understood from the lens of a ”dualistic and inherent” framework, it is natural that we view “a passive observer” as the way to solve this psychological pain.

Second, in addition to the ‘unborn, pristine and luminous’ aspect of awareness, we must have a more thorough and deeper insight into our ‘intimate, inseparable, non-dual and dependent originated’ aspect of Awareness. This relates to why “breathing exercises and some physical exercises is able to relieve psychological pain". We must directly and deeply experience what is meant by “inseparable” from the transient and understand “beingness” is never apart from whatever arises.

Lastly what that is ‘unborn, pristine and luminous’ cannot be “dependent and inseparable from the transient” appears sound only logically but not experientially. It will first seem illogical and unnatural to accept such an idea, but when the tendency to dualify and solidify experience subsides, then scenery, taste, scent, sound, breathe, the sensation of our feet touching the ground…all arising will help lighten this psychological pain. Therefore fearlessly, unreservedly and completely open to whatever arises.

- comments section of http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2008/01/ajahn-amaro-on-non-duality-and.html

Be very careful how you approach 'fear'. When approached by the wrong way, which is by 'dualifying and solidifying', you are falling into what Thusness calls 'applying the wrong medicine' in which there will be 'no cure' and instead strengthening the propensities, sense of self, and increasing the suffering. Instead of strengthening the sense of self, your entire practice must be based on right view (of no-self and dependent origination/emptiness), so as to dissolve all self/Self until there is only this whole process which is self-liberating on its own accord. When all sense of self/Self dissolves (and herein, realization of anatta and emptiness becomes important), there is naturally no more 'fear'. But fighting fear by resistance (attempting to suppress by hard will), dissociation (such as becoming a detached watcher), and all kinds of contrived action only serves to increase the very sense of self that is causing them (as Thusness said, 'The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’').

These might be helpful for fear (in fact the same advice apply for all emotional and sensate processes), they are all important:


On Maha, Thusness (2006):

“Fear is just like Self, is a process being molded into a label. What hides behind this label is a vivid process of involvement, interplay between the causes, conditions giving rise to all appearances. The activity is alive and vivid. The flow of blood, the pulsating of the heart beats, the humming of the aircon, the cold air touches the skin, awareness is all these. It is a mere knowingness without effort to recognize anything, it is one whole sensing. All true knowledge must evolve from the mere Presence.”

Thusness:

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2008/09/six-stages-of-dropping.html

Six Stages of Dropping

First is ‘someone’ is dropping…
Second is dropping appears as a mirror reflecting…
Third is there is only endless dropping without footing and mental reasoning…
Fourth is dropping as vivid wide opening…
Fifth is vivid wide opening as everything…
Sixth is only Dharma spontaneously manifesting…

......

Simpo:

Dear Friends,

If you want to experience non-duality, you must completely let go. That means you must not argue with yourself and you must not run away from any sensation, thoughts or feeling that is being felt at that moment.

You must not give yourself excuse to be not what you are at that moment. You must not reason yourself away from the situation that you are in at that particular moment.

If this persist long enough, something ‘magical’ will be percieved…

......

This is by Jean Klein:

Questioner: In certain situations in life I feel blocked by a fear which prevents me from acting. How can I be free from this obstacle?

Jean Klein: First free yourself from the word, the concept, ‘fear’. It is loaded with memory. Face only the perception. Accept the sensation
completely. When the personality who judges and controls is completely absent, when there is no longer a psychological relationship with the
sensation, it is really welcomed and unfolds. Only in welcoming without a welcomer can there be real transformation.

We are in essence one with all existence; when we truly observe ourselves there is ultimately no observer, only observation – awareness.

“In simple openness which is welcoming you will come to accept and get to know your negative feelings, desires and fears. Once welcomed and nondirected attention to these feelings will burn themselves up, leaving only silence. “

~ Jean Klein

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This is by Thusness:

"...it seems that lots of effort need to be put in -- which is really not the case. The entire practice turns out to an undoing process. It is a process of gradually understanding the workings of our nature that is from beginning liberated but clouded by this sense of ‘self’ that is always trying to preserve, protect and ever attached. The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’. Whatever we do, positive or negative, is still doing. Ultimately there is not-even a letting go or let be, as there is already continuous dissolving and arising and this ever dissolving and arising turns out to be self-liberating. Without this ‘self’ or ‘Self’, there is no ‘doing’, there is only spontaneous arising. "

~ our forummer, Thusness (source: Non-dual and karmic patterns)

"...When one is unable to see the truth of our nature, all letting go is nothing more than another from of holding in disguise. Therefore without the 'insight', there is no releasing.... it is a gradual process of deeper seeing. when it is seen, the letting go is natural. You cannot force urself into giving up the self... purification to me is always these insights... non-dual and emptiness nature...."

~ Thusness

I really dont keep this thread going enough, often im not in the mood or just feel there is nothing I can write, other times I do have good intentions but am just too lazy. No point in pretending now that im going to suddenly write more from now on!

Anyway, back to the topic,
AEN and EIS, your pointers are great, thanks!

My practice now sort of amalgamates various pointers as I believe they are all sort of related,

It consists of a concentrated effort, as best I can, on my senses (this would be in my regular hours) + the 2 stanzas recommended by AEN (also my regular hours) + during a sit, breathing and concentration effort until I decide its the "right time" to begin to investigate the three characteristics (when actually sitting down to meditate). I really feel the last bit is necessary if I want to progress. I dont think concentration meditation is good enough on its own, it makes you feel good and stable and helps clear up the mind, and definitely contributes to happiness. But I do have an urge to move forward progress and attainment wise. I cant help but think that getting real attainments lock in some clarity permanently, this isnt necessarily something I can get from high concentration breathing practice alone.

My only problem is that I really should be bringing the sits back up to an hour a day, I can tell they dont have the quality they should have. My other problem is I cant seem to find the discipline to investigate the 3 characeristics unless im actually in a sit, the rest is fine during the day, but not that bit for some reason. I guess it requires complete devoted attention.

Just to add another note to what Im doing practice wise, I sometimes leave my attempt to be engaged in sense experience,and go back into the world of thought content, so I can dig into some beliefs and I use my own version of what Byron Katie teaches. It really helps undo some reactive suffering that can take you by surprise.

My method is basically to write out what Im believing, as in the core believe behind a bad reaction "someone should be behaving this way", "they shouldnt be doing that", "I care about what was said there", "this issue matters to me because...".."im not supposed to have felt fear there"..."I shouldnt have reacted like that"

I then try and go deeper and see what THOSE beliefs reveal by seeing even deeper more underlying beliefs so
"someone should be behaving this way..." -> means -> "I have an egoistic view that pushed on causes a reaction" etc etc etc.

I try do this until I have exhausted all the beliefs I can think of, and then begin to write out what the actual truth behind the situation is. I address each belief and write out how its not the case. When doing this I try my best to relive the situation to invoke emotion. But that bit doesnt always work tbh. I think my imagination has gotten too weak now at this stage.


Regarding my issues in the previous posts, Ive taken a long look at these the past few weeks

AEN said:


I was STILL considering fear a bad thing until recently, although it was sliding off me, and although there was a much deeper acceptance , there was still this tiny voice in my head saying "you shouldnt be feeling that", thankfully Ive addressed this issue now (using the above method), and it seems to have helped greatly.

EIS wrote this regarding my issue of not discerning between actual shifts/bliss/etc and me creating a belief/assumption and thought that I was experiencing it:


Well Ive been examining this as closely as possible, and sort of retraining myself not to fall into this trap again, but it has become quite apparent to me how much i was actually doing it. It was a bit of wake up call, but it has helped because I no longer create egoistic assumptions about any experience, at least Ive made great headway in reducing it. So now when I have a mini-shift or feel great etc, I watch out for the deep assumptions that dont even require words yet I still think them, stuff like "this means from now on, things will be this way" , "this is really non dual, this shit really works, I can ease off on my practice right now". I dont consciously think that stuff, thats just my attempt to put into words what kind of assumptions are building up.


Another issue Im having, which Ive discussed with Tommy elsewhere is the recurring feeling of anticipation , during days after alot of practice, I experience little small changes and views occur constantly, slight shifts and mood changes, or even more extreme shifts where I feel closer to another path or something. And every time the tinyest thing happens a thought arises "is this it?" , "is something happening?" I am wasting alot of time with this recurring thought,and only feeding into the story and out of direct experience. He advised to try and discern what that feeling + thought actually is. Ive began a process of digging very deep and dissecting the phenomenon into its parts, ie the slight tension that comes with it, the minds increase in business, the almost instant striving for something conceptual and the avoidance of the senses. All this can happen in a half of a second. Thankfully practice has given me the clarity to able to recognise this happening in nearly real time. However I still need to learn how to stop doing it.

Perhaps I should take my Byron Katie-esque approach above with it to see does it dissolve the thought itself by disregarding every belief based around it.

Just thought Id add one more comment on this whole process, I find that when I begin to truly drop an issue that would have caused suffering in the past I dont feel a great relief. Not to say its not fantastic that something has stopped happening ,be it a mild irritation, a strange fear , unnecessary anger, or a protection of ego. But what I mean is, it sometimes feels like once that issue is no longer an issue, it never WAS an issue.

Is this a problem ? Not really, once its gone its gone , who cares, but it just makes progress difficult to quantify sometimes, and that can be a cause for a potential lack of motivation, and all of a sudden your next issue that by rights shouldnt feel that big a deal, now feels almost as important as the last thing you finally got over.

Maybe thats confusing, but what I mean is , sometimes I set my own standards so high that I tend to wonder have I made any progress at all. I think the solution to this is to ask myself, how much more hours in the day do I spend in peace than I used to before? If I look at that carefully, Im sure Ill be pleasantly surprised.

Ive decided to get a bit more practical and log on a daily basis every sit, it should require little effort:

Today:
Time: 1hr 10 mins focus on breath for 25 mins and into sense experience and examination for the remainder. It incuded 2 break of approx 2 mins each, which consisted of having my eyes open. I hope in the future not to have these at all, but I find I get alot more quality and time out of a sit if I allow myself this for now.

To me this indicates that your concentration during practice needed (and needs) to be much stronger. Concentration ultimately dispels this kind of thinking, and when concentration is reduced and it comes back, it's generally quite clear how unpleasant and unsatisfactory thinking in that way is.

Another thing about concentration is, when you have a lot of it, you should be able to notice an obvious sensation of pleasure. You mentioned before noticing that a lot of "bliss" isn't pleasant by itself, but is only pleasant due to thinking about it that way:



That's a good observation, and you can use the presence of "bliss" that is pleasant by itself, independently of what you think or believe, as a marker for stronger concentration. What you're noticing and rightly rejecting as not really nice is an example of the way that the mind grasps at things and builds an identity around them (in this case, the identity of "I feel good"...which is what you're calling the concept / interpretation).



Maybe seeing even stronger concentration will change your mind about this.

If you can improve your concentration, then a great way to investigate is like this: concentrate until there's a palpable difference in your experience, and then (very gently) assess

1) is it more pleasant / less unpleasant this way?
2) the addition or subtraction or alteration of which sensations is responsible for that?
3) what unexpected qualities do those sensations carry (e.g. a sense of "I", a sense of "looking", a sense of inhabiting different parts of your body).

When your concentration fades a bit, you can examine these issues at the moment of fading. And over the long term you should work to improve your concentration so that you keep assessing subtler and subtler sensations, sensations which you may not even realize you're experiencing until you can assess them via stronger concentration.

If your concentration is leaving you at the point where you have a sense of stability, what sensation is responsible for that? How much concentration would you need for that sensation to disappear?



Seeing this in real-time is good. If you can see how these things correspond in some way to some sensation that arises when you subtly think these thoughts, that would be good too. (At first you might notice a sense of tension but not quite be able to pinpoint where / what it is.)

You should assume that you're always having subtle thoughts like this, though not always about the same topics. Where are they the rest of the time? If you can see them, it will help your concentration, and if you can concentrate well, you'll see them more overtly.

update: Things have been really hectic for me the past week or so, in a good way , new job, new housemates etc, but alot of my attention has been soaked up by all this, which is interesting in itself, some old 'stuff' came up when starting the new job, but what was interesting was how weak it was and how quickly it fell away. (im talking about mild stresses, or the notions of wanting to impress and stressing at the notion that I might not be, but within minutes those notions lost their traction)

Ill report probably in the next day or two, unfortunately ive only done 2 sits reading EISs post, both putting in full concentration effort. Itll probably have been the first time since all this started that all this hasnt been at the forefront of my attention, although funnily enough, as things are quickly settling and Im falling back into a routine again, I can feel my drive for being as attentive as possible growing stronger again, thankfully.

Practice has been at its worst since Ive started posting on Dho, in that it hasnt been happening. My life has been fairly consumed the past month or so with new changes and also the fact that I have to learn something for a new job which takes up a huge amount of my time mentally.

Ironically , all these changes wouldnt have happened or at least wouldnt have been so smooth if it wasnt for practice in the first place so as soon as things settle Ill get back to proper disciplined practice.

Also , Ive realized that sorting out your conventional life issues, and giving them genuine serious attention offers great peace as well. Its just an entire area of my life that I was tackling, and is at the moment, no longer an issue at all.

EIS, you're right about concentration , I think I was just getting a little lost on trying to achieve recognised insights and path moments again, and forgetting that extremely high levels of concentration actually yield exactly what I would be attempting to attain. And its true, every single assumption, delusion, and egoic thought is a result of a lack of attention and concentration. How couldnt it be?

I think my only doubt was in my thinking I had to be following Ingram style rules of insight practice to actually be permanently moving forward in terms of insight, but in truth, concentration fits it all together very very neatly.

Even though I havent been up to much in this area the past month, there has still been a fairly significant shift happening by itself, which makes me think I may even have hit another path or insight, I cant really describe it at the moment, mainly because I just feel like im describing more of the same so it just gets repetitive , so I think the best way I can describe it is by using conventional examples of things that have fallen away, which ill do in my next post. Im happy I wrote my list of "issues" in the first few posts because I can reference them now and compare.

Im not going to write an actual practice post until I am confident that I am consistently doing sits every single day again.