Hey, some issues i've been thinking over concerning "sensuousness." I have been trying to figure out why some of the time when i seem to be paying attention to the senses it results in more dull, dead, and meaningless experience and at other times what seem to be the same actions get the result of an alive, bright, clear, enjoyable and somehow "purposeful" experience. It clearly has to do with the level of affect present, but it still *seemed* that both experiences were purely sensate. What I picked up on is a very subtle slipping off of the mind, such that i could be directing attention to the senses but there'd be a constant fluttering between the "real" and the "actual."

This would seem sort of obvious, but i still had an intuitive confusion about it. The fact was that the enjoyableness of experience is purely based on how committed to the actual I was, literally what percentage of each second attention was turned towards the actual world rather than the real (does this seem correct to other people?). This helps me understand the connection between felicity and sensuousness and attentiveness. One can "manually" turn attention toward the physical senses with sensuousness or dismantle the inner narrative which is subliminally pulling you away from it resulting in felicity.

does this sound right? it makes more sense like this, when there is a single goal - actual experience - with multiple tools.

I seem to have a lot better luck with sensuousness if I intentionally stop thinking. I will stop thoughts attend to sensuousness then employ nievete towards a form of felicity towards the sensuousness. Having a nievete towards perfection, what have you, via thought and immediately going back to the space of no thoughts just sensuousness. And, felicity usually increases quite naturally. This then evolves into an EE/PCE. So I find it is similar to say getting into first jhana, starting up that pleasure feedback loop, but in this case having an actualist view.
Ross

When sensuousness is 'dull', where is attention really? Be as specific as you can in your analysis of where attention is really falling when 'dullness' is the theme? Where is it perhaps 'bouncing' to? Is it like you are looking or experiencing from the middle of the brain for example as opposed to the actual sense door only? Can you perceive any subtle movement from sense door (where it is always 'pure' and not 'dull') to the middle of the brain or another area that isn't the sense door that seems 'dulled'? For myself, simply recognising that there seems to be a 'dullness' being fabricated over the sense doors so to speak (more like interspersed extremely rapidly between pure moments of apperception so as to appear like a flow of 'dullness' overlaying it), and simply observing it dispassionately giving that 'dullness' space to arise, be and pass away, will always lead back to the 'pure' sense door experience (which is happening all the time, it's just often followed rapidly by the sequence that results in fabrications (which suck ala 'dullness')

My two cents

Nick

Edit: also dullness might be because one is 'trying' to achieve something (PCE for example). Perhaps keep this in mind when doing what you are already doing might aid in ceasing the fabrication of 'dullness' seemingly over the senses/sensuousness.

thanks, the part about switching between the point of contact and a central location seemed particularly relevant and useful. I can't seem to nail down anything other than that attention bounces to the central affective column and back to the point of contact creating dullness.

Perhaps just paying attention to these two occurrences; the attention moving back to within the brain versus the pure sense door only; and allowing both occurrences to juxtapose or mash up against each other, looking on dispassionately, might lead somewhere. Experiment with looking at it from different angles.

One angle I found in my own experience was that there was a sense of frustration due to this bouncing of attention and an aversion towards it arising it only when I would not look on those occurrences dispassionately but rather with some desire for them to disappear or stay. The very act of wanting it to stop or continue fueled it's very arising.

The link in my last post above (Riding The Wave), might help in adjusting the way these occurrences are observed appropriately, sidestepping the frustration and aversion and allowing such phenomena to arise, be, and pass away in a dispassionate space in the mind, rather than clung to (via aversion or craving).

Nick

yeah, pretty much what nick said.

when any sort of tension or factor of attention ceases to be viewed as a problem or as annoying... guess what else ceases... the tension.

thanks, this does seem to be an effective approach - as evidenced by this thread I was viewing these things as annoying.