My experiment , no guiding or ongoing pointing...

wylo ., modified 9 Years ago.

My experiment , no guiding or ongoing pointing...

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
Here is a copy and paste of this thread..
http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3021654

Hi folks, Im trying an experiment over on another forum.
Here is the link..
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=748

This wont really apply to alot of people here who are beyond stream entry I would imagine, or to people who are really really comfortable with their progress etc, but I welcome you to give it a go, especially someone more early on in this whole process.

The ideal person is someone who feels like they are in control of their life but conceptually understands there is no real self/controller/experiencer but just doesnt "get" it.

This doesnt have to interrupt whatever Dho practice you are currently doing.

Im not going to claim a successful outcome is "stream entry" or any path, quite simply because I dont know, and after a bit of struggling to find out, my final answer was "inconclusive but something not far off stream entry"
I started a thread in the direct pointing section (link below) if you want to use it to respond.

Its also worth noting that it is my practice here that has helped me get 10 times more out of my initial no self realisation and really really enjoy life than anything else. So basically, what I mean is, treat this like something to add to your toolkit, or just a side experiment, not your escape route from concentration or insight practice.

So if your interested in trying, reply in the direct pointing thread here


PS, If you're not interested in trying it and have an opinion or criticism about direct pointing, all I can say is "meh", just not in the mood for arguing at the moment, maybe when Im less sleepy!!



So reply here if you think you'll give it a real shot!!
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neem nyima, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: My experiment , no guiding or ongoing pointing...

Posts: 168 Join Date: 8/6/10 Recent Posts
Looks a lot like a 'ruthless truth' spin-off, but without a direct link back to the site, when some reckons they've attained in ruthless truth they're encouraged to make their own page. Ingram has a link or used to, to the site. They're oka, in some ways. Thought Enquiry is an important component of Mahamudra practice too. G'Luck
ps I found mixing that kind of enquiry during retreat very helpful all thoughts, emotions, feelings, sensations & reactions i'd label not self, most of the time the enquiry was as simple as that. All your left with is Intentions and the subtle sensations people mistake for Awareness, i.e. space calm silence.
wylo ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: My experiment , no guiding or ongoing pointing...

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
Hi neem, you're right, it is an RT spin off, I come from there. RT is gone now, but this site was set up by sort of the same group , basically some of whom were involved in RT.

And yes, the methods are pretty much the same as RT, only that was my attempt at being far more specific in terms of how to actually look and focus, and cut out the need for a guide. I think I have a better handle now on what I was doing, and I beleive the clarity Ive gained from here has contributed to that.

Im not making any claims about it, and what it will do for YOU, I can only account for me and other people that have gotten alot out of this methodology. It allowed me to achieve alot , thats not to say Im not learning a bucket load here and on MCTB too though. Im a firm believer in taking all the knowledge and shit I can , and see whats working for me.

Im a firm beleiver in combing the stuff here with this ridiculously direct hard line looking approach, because what the combination has done for me in the past few months has been fairly staggering.

And its actually something I would love to see being taken more seriously than it is so far. But naturally, people are very very skeptical and the behaviour and naivity of us at RT originally did not help things.We went a bit overboard.
but despite all those egostical mistakes I stand by the core technique as it is.
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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: My experiment , no guiding or ongoing pointing...

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
I like it, and I also really like your emphasis on doing it yourself. Give someone the techniques and clearly describe to them how to do it, if they're serious about it then they'll make progress although I'd be wary of trying to map any potential experiences to the Path system. You may find Thusness' model, which you're probably aware of already, more useful as I reckon most "greens" who sincerely applied the techniques would be likely to experience his 1st stage. It also makes it quite clear that such experiences are not "enlightenment" and that there is more to be done after such a realization which, to me, was one of the failings of the original RT approach; people were getting these deep insights and walking about thinking they were awakened, only to have their asses handed to them by the more difficult stages of this whole thing. It also encouraged a lot of egotism and point-scoring mentality which was part of the reason I left it in the first place, which is a pity because the basic techniques could have been developed further if Ciaran and his sidekicks weren't so quick to rubbish every other meditative and investigative approach.

Good luck with it, you've always been an honest and genuine guy in the times we've interacted and I think your attitude towards this is much more positive than what RT became. I'll bookmark your site and see how it goes with you. : )
wylo ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: My experiment , no guiding or ongoing pointing...

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
Just saw this now,

Thanks Tommy,
Unfortunately the experiment sort of failed in a way, it seems a personal thread is needed to keep the person completely and entirely engaged on the one topic at hand, which is no self. Several people sort of expressed interest but fizzled out , and the one person that really tried to give it a go Im actually talking to now 1 on 1 instead, because it seems he has more barriers than I originally anticipated.

That said, like you say , there is nothing wrong with having instructions laid out for people so they can do it themselves. Thats what worked for me, but then again, once I get preoccupied by something I tend to not be able to let go of it until its "done". So in that respect , I definitely dont think I needed the same sort of focused engagement.

Thats not my site, but I like to stay involved to an extent. Even though its only one small aspect of this whole awakening thing, because it was so big for me, (a guy who 2 weeks prior to seeing it, had barely even heard of awakening or enlightenment or meditation), that I feel sort of obliged to pass the message on, but I do it now when it suits me, theres no point engaging with people when you're not in the mood, I also send to them onto here, and the awakeningtoreality blog for more.

Regarding RT and Ciaran etc, yea, as soon as I started listening to others I slipped away more and more myself tbh because I realized not only do other methods work, but are much further ahead, and have a decent map to go with it, and are much more in the know regarding reducing suffering, not just attaining new "undiscovered insight". Blind leading the blind really.

But I suppose, it was out of excitement and compassion (For me anyway), its just the naivity of it made it in danger of becoming an angry cult with dogma.
Combining that technique and learning as much as you can elsewhere too is what I encourage now.


I just want to say , its the engagements with yourself and EIS that have completely helped me turn around my approach from a near-defensive one to a proactive one. You gave me alot of good advice in one particular thread in the "What was that?" forum.
I think staying grounded and being as aware as possible as to when you are fooling yourself is the key to doing this right.
And I know, I HAVE fooled myself on lots of occasions,lol
Cheers!!
An Eternal Now, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: My experiment , no guiding or ongoing pointing...

Posts: 638 Join Date: 9/15/09 Recent Posts
Tommy M:
You may find Thusness' model, which you're probably aware of already, more useful as I reckon most "greens" who sincerely applied the techniques would be likely to experience his 1st stage. It also makes it quite clear that such experiences are not "enlightenment" and that there is more to be done after such a realization which, to me, was one of the failings of the original RT approach; people were getting these deep insights and walking about thinking they were awakened, only to have their asses handed to them by the more difficult stages of this whole thing.


RT is all about the most direct way to realize no-self. However it is unfortunate that there is no clarity about the different degrees of self/no-self.

I have seen RT or LU "enlightened roll" people spanning all sorts of stages. Many RT or LU people did not even realized I AM, just experienced impersonality and were considered enlightened. Many RT/LU "enlightened list" are at I AM (as I AM at late phase is oceanic, all-pervading, deeply impersonal and seen as universal, thus mistaken with no-self too). Many at non dual (no-self based on Self/one mind). A few has gotten to Thusness Stage 5. But so far none penetrates into stage 6 including Ciaran (who himself is at stage 5). Ciaran does not have clarity on the degrees of no-self and so this problem occurred in his students. He has confused for example, Eckhart Tolle, who realized the I AM (first two Thusness stages), with his no-self insight. Actual Freedom teachings on the other hand, has more awareness on the different degrees of no-self, also it is a more gradual method than RT and has its own particular emphasis (e.g. On eliminating "affect") but as I realized more on anatta and emptiness I discovered that even AF teaching is also not quite complete. Nonetheless these two teachings did serve as an important condition in 2010 for me to penetrate into anatta. Later, I saw their inadequancies and more recently I'm drawn to other teachings like Soto Zen Dogen studies, pali canon suttas etc. Not saying that AF or RT is not valuable, as it can be valuable at certain point of the path, and also Advaita used to be my main focus earlier on. Pragmatic dharma - whatever works.

So anyway, my point is, it is quite impt to have some awareness on the different degrees of no-self or the different degrees of self/Self (though understanding there is no hierarchy, only different insights and experiences). One of the issues I covered in my article: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/12/experience-realization-view-practice.html

Anyway LU owner Illona asked me to write an article for their website. I have dragged on for a long time due to lack of time and inspiration. I might have an idea now.

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