In my anapanasati practice, after the breath becomes calm, piti arises. I focus on the piti (with the breath in the background) and it grows. And grows....

This piti (akin to the feeling of joy in the body, like a force that pervades the entire body-mind) will if taken as the object grow in intensity, then level off, then grow again. It can continue like this for quite some time.

At it's peak, the intensity is almost unbearable. It's a very unstable, un-calm not-tranquil feeling. (as i believe is right). The question is; is this a dead end or will something happen if I "break through" the end?

By "break through" I mean that it always feels I'm on the verge of something but it never happens. Just when I think I can take no more, and it can't get any more intense.. it gets even more intense!

What is your experience?

I don't know what will happen if you keep cultivating what you currently are cultivating, but if you work on relaxing the unbearable, agitated quality that surrounds the piti (that feeling being a defilement, not piti), it won't be a dead end.

Try this experiment. When piti is experienced, allow it to be there, and then allow the mind to recognize all sense contact at all sense doors at once continuously rather than one at a time. Allow the piti to be experienced via this angle as opposed to perhaps a narrowly focused one. What happens?

Edit: dont 'try' to attempt this, just decide to allow the brain to show that it can cognise it all like so. What happens to piti when you allow the mind to simply reconise everything (the entire field of experience, eye, ear, nose, tongue and body surface and within) being cognised by the brain continuously non stop simultaneously?

Thanks EIS, Nick

I will try both of these things over the next few sits and report back.

Here's some additional notes of interest:

• As per Buddhadasa's suggestions in his book "Mindfulness of Breathing" I have tried to see both the charm and the unsatisfactoriness in piti. This has resulted in it fading away to be replaced by a cooler, more peaceful experience of pleasant contentment that I believe to be sukkha. At this non absorbed kind of level this is not thought-free, but it is very peaceful and sustainable and far less agitated.
• On one occasion a week or so back I did manage to take piti to it's (for me) highest level. What happened did not finish happening but seemed to be a kind of absorption as the body mostly faded away and the entire experience seemed to become the anapana spot. It's an incomplete experience. Perhaps this is what EIS is pointing to. We will see.
• I practiced "all sense doors" on retreat recently during walking in the grounds. First watching the breath, then adding hearing, seeing, touching etc. At it's height it was an very pleasant experience that led to some small insights as I walked.

They might be the same thing, just approached differently.



Is it equally intense (in terms of magnitude)?



That's sounds like it's leading in the direction of full jhana, if the sense of intense agitation started to go away too. But, how did the perception of piti change or not change, as the sense of a body faded?

The feeling is not so intense, but the level of concentration is. It starts off less intense but builds in a similar way. The difference being that when this builds it is not agitated at all.



I find it a little hard to remember accurately but I think it started to move to the background as it became less agitated.

Hello Bagpuss,

What I'm about to explain is a bit advanced for your current level of insight realization, yet maybe some of it will help shed some light on what is occurring, now and in future sits.

The short answer to your original question is: Yes, intense piti is a dead end. Very insightful of you to arrive at that conclusion!

To my way of viewing things in meditation practice, it's best if one can obtain the mature view of what is occurring in order to better understand those circumstances as they are happening, and thus be able to naturally adapt oneself to them and not be tempted to go off on some wild tangent. If someone had been able to explain to me what this practice was all about from a mature standpoint of some of the things to expect as the practice and insight matured, it may not have taken me two or three or four years to realize what was important about my perception of the sensations and processes that I was experiencing.

Piti is only one factor in what people have come to conceptualize as the practice of "jhana." Once you have verified that vitakka and vicara are present, then piti and sukha are able to arise naturally on their own. You should realize that this is only ONE method for entering into what has been termed an "absorption state." The amount of the absorption depends upon how focused one is on the object (like the breath, for example) that one has taken.

So, once you begin to experience piti, you can be assured that you have entered what is called "the first jhana."

In order to proceed to the second, third, and fourth levels of "jhana" the mind needs to become more and more calm, meaning less and less agitated. This is accomplished through the gradual elimination of the "jhana" factors, ending in mindfulness (sati) and equanimity (upekkha) in the fourth level. Sometimes people can perceive this process happening as it is occurring, and other times (especially when mindfulness is low) it is difficult for them to perceive these transitions. Don't be too concerned if you are not able to verify these transitions in the beginning (meaning as you are beginning to learn about entering "jhana"). Just focus on following whatever object of meditation you have chosen (like the breath) in order to deepen the calm and lose the agitation of piti and sukha.


So, rather than focusing on intensifying piti, what you should be doing is focusing on the object you have chosen for meditation (like the breath). Let piti and sukha take care of themselves. You don't need to focus on them at all. Only to the extent that you can recognize them occurring, and even that isn't all that necessary when you are first beginning to learn. Your intent should be on calming all mental processes down so that you can reach fourth "jhana." It is from fourth "jhana" that all good things can begin to happen in terms of insight arising. See? This truth hasn't sunk in yet. But further on, you acknowledge that you have accomplished this without realizing it!


This is precisely what I have just explained above. Also, your perception is wrong! Rather than being a "non absorbed kind of level," this is in fact an absorbed level. You have to be in the first jhana in order to be able to perceive piti, which is one of the four factors present in the first jhana, the other factors being vitakka, vicara, and sukha. Vitakka and vicara drop out in the second jhana. Piti drops out in the third jhana, leaving sukha. Then sukha drops out as you attain the fourth level, where you should be cultivating mindfulness and equanimity.


No! That was the complete experience. You just didn't realize it. That is what you should have been aiming at achieving!


This is, again, what I was referring to above when I said that you hadn't realized what you had actually achieved! You're THERE. The next question you should be asking yourself is: Now that I'm here, what am I going to do with it? And the answer to that is: practice satipatthana.

I hope you're not too confused by all this by now. Given time, you will eventually realize what I'm talking about.

In peace,
Ian

Hi Ian, thanks for the intriguing reply!

I'll need to digest this a bit but Im about to practice so if you're still around can I get you to clarify one of your points quickly?

In talking about the anapana spot experience you say:


Do you mean I should achieve this by going through the reduction of jhana factors whilst being intent on the anapana spot, or by intensifying piti (as it happened for me that time)?

I think you mean the former, but it's a little unclear to me...

Thanks again,

This makes a lot of sense to me. Very succinctly put. Thank you, Ian.

Nothing to add other than saying that this is a remarkably meaningful and relevant thread with reagards to my practice at the moment.

So: thank you!

It suffices to say that there is disagreement among people on this point.

However, it is true that there are forms of concentration in which there ceases to be an experience of the anapana spot, and yet piti is extraordinarily intense; whether this is more "complete" or not may depend on your interpretation, but, complete or not, it certainly is possible.

(I am not looking to debate this, but merely to note the existence of contrasting viewpoints.)

Yes, your deduction is correct: meaning "the former."

I took your admission that "the body mostly faded away and the entire experience seemed to become the anapana spot" to mean that you had attained something like (if not the very thing) the fourth jhana. If this was true, that's what I meant by saying, "That was the complete experience." Meaning the experience of the fourth jhana. Once you realize you are THERE, it becomes the jumping off point for either insight practice or further calming (as in the pursuit of the immaterial jhana experience).

However, not being the one who experience that description, I really cannot say for certain that that is what you experienced. I am only able to surmise, given the words and concepts used in the description.

Fourth jhana can be experienced in at least two different ways (for me, that is). Depending upon the intent, it can be either a samatha fourth, or a vipassana fourth.

In a samatha fourth, every thing quiets down, even the breathing, until the breath becomes so shallow that it is hardly even perceptible as the mind becomes more and more calm. The body may or may not disappear as something to be perceived. If the body disappears, then you are heading deeper into a samatha (calmness) state. It is from this state that such experiences as sanna-vedayita-nirodha (the cessation of perception and feeling) are experienced.

In a vipassana fourth, the main characteristic for me is the level of concentration and clarity of mind that is developed. Usually, the body is perceptible in this state; this can sometimes confuse beginners because they think that it doesn't "feel" like the fourth jhana that they've read so much about, but be assured, it is a variety of the fourth. In other words, since I'm not intending for deeper and deeper levels of calmness, but only for a level of mental quietude and concentration, once I reach a point of one pointed quietude (little or no mental traffic), I am from that jumping off point, able to incline the mind toward an object for insight. From within this space, this vacuum so to speak, is where insight can take place.

For insight to take place, you have to engage the mind on an object for insight. That object could be anything that you wish to observe or examine in closer quarters. Insight takes place primarily because the mind becomes focused one pointedly upon its object such that the object can be seen with clarity. From this state of clarity is where insight (about whatever object has been taken) is born. This is the essence of contemplation! This (meaning this state of mental clarity) is what lead to Gotama's "enlightenment." For example, he was able to see dependent co-arising from this state very clearly, without any interruption or distraction. He was able to perceive the various transitions in the twelve factors of dependent co-arising, to figure it all out from this state. See?

These days, I mostly enter a vipassana fourth in contemplation, as there are objects that I wish to examine with more clarity in order to figure them out, to see them for what they are.

In peace,
Ian

Relax, End. I don't deny the point of view of your conception or experience or the fact that it can happen in the way you describe, as it certainly can happen in that way.

I'm only pointing out that intense piti is not the point when someone is aiming at developing the tools necessary for awakening. In other words, a person can become distracted (from the path, from what they may be endeavoring to achieve with their own practice) in pursuit of such a practice. Not to mention the unsettling (meaning opposite of mental calm) experience of an intense experience of piti.

Always consider the tool you are using to accomplish a goal, and focus on using that tool wisely. In meditation, the aim is toward accomplishing mindfulness and clear comprehension, equanimity (toward mental formations), and insight into the cause of events or processes of the mind. If one remains focused on accomplishing these goals, the quicker they will achieve them! That's all.

In my opinion, piti can tie into (or be the direct cause of) mindfulness, comprehension, equanimity, and insight in under-appreciated ways, and so a practice that magnifies it beyond what one might otherwise think reasonable or useful can pay off very well. That's all.

Okay, so some notes on this now I've had a chance to sit a few times armed with all this great new info...



This has proved to be the case at least as far as I can gather. It could well be that because I have learnt to let the mind see how unsatisfactory piti is, it just fades away revealing sukkha but Im reasonably sure that I have also learnt through repeated attempts to not fear the piti, and "relax into it".

The result is the fading of piti into sukkha whichever way you look at it though. It used to be that the breath would get stuttery, the heart would pound and it would be unpleasant. Now it seems like a fairly smooth transition when Im ready to transition.



I haven't really managed to do this. At least not to the point where I can see anything happen because of it...



I have varying degrees of success in seeing the transitions. I always notice going into first as you define it. Piti arises slowly at first, then with sustained focus it grows as originally described minus some of the uncomfortable intensity. Im always a bit hazy on 2 and 3. At some point I certainly notice piti fading into the background as sukkha takes over but have no concept/understanding of vittaka and vicara disappearing. Im not sure I really recognise what they are experientially. Eventually I either notice the final fading of piti and the growth of sukkha or I just realise that without me noticing I have no piti but an abundance of sukkha.

Like I said, 2 and 3 I find hard to distinguish a bit. I do see that sukkha can grow in intensity just like piti, though at it's peak it is still a very calm, cool and sustainable sensation compared to the agitation of piti.



It doesn't' quite work this way for me, though it can to do a degree if I really try. What I've found works best is once piti arises, take it as the object but keep the breath in the background also. 70/30 perhaps. The breath is a constant anchor. Piti is the object. Then as that fades, sukkha becomes the object.



This matches my experience exactly. Including the bit about it not "feeling" like the fourth I expected! I seem to be consistently able to reach it. From 3rd where sukkha is pretty intense but everything is extremely calm I just incline the mind toward the disturbance or dukkha of sukkha and there is a change as it fades away. What Im left with is a state where there is virtually no thought and virtually no breath. It's very quiet indeed. The breath can be so minimal that Im amazed its enough to sustain even my lying down posture! It only increases when pay attention to it.

I can't quite work out what my object is in 4th though. It feels similar to when Im focusing on piti or sukkha. Has that same quality of attention but there's nothing really to focus on.. I don't suppose it matters but...

And 4th matures. I get the feeling it could get even quieter.



As you might remember I have become quite a fan of Bhikkhu Analayo's book "Satipatthana, The Direct Path to Realisation". Put that together with Buddhadasa's book "Mindfulness of Breathing" which is a very detailed account of how to worth through the Anapanasati sutta from a vipassana viewpoint AND my constant returns to anapana practice and I think I have the basis of a maturing practice.

I am definitely a bit confused on some points though. I think a new practice thread might be in order.

Thanks again for all the great help Ian, Nick, EIS

This is where it falls apart for me. To "look at" or "examine" anything leads straight into mental proliferation. Anything other than consolidating it into a harder jhana just leads to chaos and mental wandering.

Sorry to hear that. Yes, that can happen when mindfulness is at a low ebb.

Best to follow what you have intuitively been doing in order to build up sati and therefore more control. That is, "consolidating it into a harder jhana" and resting there (in a samatha jhana) in order to recondition the mind for stronger sati and stronger concentration. I had to do that too for the longest stretch of time before it became more comfortable (profitable) to pursue insight.

Be aware that there is a difference between the kind of "mental proliferation" leading to "chaos and mental wandering" you seem to be running into and insight about an object. That insight can be perceived to be very similar to mental proliferation, except that it doesn't culminate in "chaos and mental wandering" but rather a deeper knowledge and comprehension of the object under observation leading to insight about that object. Kind of like those "ah-hah" moments when a mental light bulb goes on! And you suddenly see (realize) something that you hadn't before.

Ian, thanks for your practical and practicable guidance; this has neatly zeroed in on some problems I've been having for some time now.

BTG, thanks for starting another great thread.

Eric

This was very useful thread for me too. I have been wondering similar things after having very strong piti experiences in a few sessions, when I started to approach jhana-like states, but having nowadays much calmer states that are very similar to 1rd-3rd states you described.

Thanks for great comments and for starting this thread!