PCE, AF and physical suffering

thumbnail
Yuliya Yakhontova, modified 11 Years ago at 5/17/12 9:10 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 5/17/12 8:47 PM

PCE, AF and physical suffering

Posts: 12 Join Date: 9/20/09 Recent Posts
I apologize if this is something obvious and/or discussed previously on this forum.

As far as I understand PCE is cultivated by paying attention to the pleasant bodily sensations and realizing that one is in fact in paradise if only mind gets out of the way.
Now, what happens to the PCE, and to AF, if this 'flesh and blood' body experiences acute or prolonged physical suffering?

I did a 21 day water fast recently and it was a pretty tough experience with a lot of physical discomfort and, I would say, outright suffering.
While I got pretty good at PCE prior to the fast, I was entirely unable to even contemplate it during the fast.

Thoughts?
thumbnail
Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 5/17/12 11:12 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 5/17/12 11:11 PM

RE: PCE, AF and physical suffering

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Yuliya Yakhontova:
I apologize if this is something obvious and/or discussed previously on this forum.

As far as I understand PCE is cultivated by paying attention to the pleasant bodily sensations and realizing that one is in fact in paradise if only mind gets out of the way.
Now, what happens to the PCE, and to AF, if this 'flesh and blood' body experiences acute or prolonged physical suffering?

I did a 21 day water fast recently and it was a pretty tough experience with a lot of physical discomfort and, I would say, outright suffering.
While I got pretty good at PCE prior to the fast, I was entirely unable to even contemplate it during the fast.

Thoughts?


Not sure where the idea came that a PCE is triggered via pleasant bodily sensations though that could be a means to recognise pure sense contact without the mind getting pulled here and there by 'moods'. There are a variety of ways o trigger PCEs in my experience. All these differing ways all seem to have as their common link, the recognising of the fleeting moments of pure sense contact. The way one gets to that continuous recognition may differ from person to person, school of thought to school of thought.

What is a PCE in your own past experience? Can you describe it in your own words? Duration?
thumbnail
Yuliya Yakhontova, modified 11 Years ago at 5/18/12 2:32 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 5/18/12 1:49 PM

RE: PCE, AF and physical suffering

Posts: 12 Join Date: 9/20/09 Recent Posts
I didn't read AF website articles for a while but I did read Richard's Journal and some of his articles previously and I remember him saying over and over again that (in my own words) we need to get out of our minds (spiritual or ordinary) and into this 'flesh and blood' body and notice how pleasant it actually is to be alive. Did I misinterpret something? If so, perhaps I need to brush up on this stuff.
"consistently enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive is what the actualism method is"
What remains is the third ‘I’ – this flesh and blood body only, actually free of fear and aggression
One then lives in this actual world of sensual delight
Then there is nothing except the series of sensations which happen ... not happening to an ‘I’ or a ‘me’ but just happening ... moment by moment ... one after another. To live life as these sensations, as distinct from having them, engenders the most astonishing sense of freedom and magic.

I also remember people on this forum saying (Daniel?) that while in the PCE, they are not able to concentrate mind in a one-pointed way and get into Jhanas, or to perceive fractional nature of reality and do insight practices.
I think if a meditator encounters physical suffering then there are 2 ways of possible action:
1) to concentrate mind into one-pointedness and get into a formless jhana
2) to start doing insight practice on pain (that's what I tend to do) and break the pain down into vibrations.

Now, if someone in a AF state encounters physical suffering, then in my understanding there will be 2 options:
1) the AF state will fall apart (that would be a better alternative in my view)
2) instead of being 'locked in' a paradise, a person gets locked up in hell.

I believe I experienced PCE multiple times, though I never checked in with anyone to confirm it.
It's hard to describe exactly how I can do it, but generally I am tuning into the present moment, zooming in. Shutting my mind off and just experience the moment as it is. I am trying to pay attention to pleasant physical sensations (including sights without interpretation and sounds or absence of sounds) but also to just feel the timelessness and sacredness of the moment as it presents itself with all the ordinariness of it. When I 'get' into it, there is subtle shift and it's as if everything around becomes sacred. If I am in the sun, the sunlight and the grass seems to be a lot brighter. I am experiencing the world directly through my senses, without filtration through the mind. Yet, there is some level of filtration or guidence, where I am trying to focus on the pleasant aspects of this moment. When the 'shift' happens I don't need to make this effort any longer, unless I start thinking and get out of the present. The 'shift' to get into PCE (or whatever I experienced) was similar to the shift that happens when I am getting into Jhana. Only here I don't need to be focused on the sensations internally and can function or even communicate with others. The easiest time for me to experience this are early mornings and evenings when everything is quiet and I don't have any immediate agenda. Duration varied widely. From a minute to maybe up to an hour or so. Depended on how much time I had before I had to start thinking about my job or something.

I found that reading Richard's Journal and reflecting on it helped me to get into this state. I remember his descriptions of nature, or him cooking dinner, or driving in the car and it made it easier for me to kind of see the reality from his point of view. However I never remember him describing any degree of physical discomfort that he experienced and felt 'happy and peaceful' in this 'flesh and blood' body.
thumbnail
Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 5/18/12 6:06 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 5/18/12 6:04 PM

RE: PCE, AF and physical suffering

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Yuliya Yakhontova:


I found that reading Richard's Journal and reflecting on it helped me to get into this state. I remember his descriptions of nature, or him cooking dinner, or driving in the car and it made it easier for me to kind of see the reality from his point of view. However I never remember him describing any degree of physical discomfort that he experienced and felt 'happy and peaceful' in this 'flesh and blood' body.



Perhaps drop the notion that 'physical suffering' will be a block to practice. it seems you are setting up a mental block. An unnecessary one. A physical discomfort becomes a mental discomfort for 'me'. And 'me' is what stand between that flesh and blood body and actuality (apperception/PCE). The physical discomfort is part of actuality. The mental overlay of 'me-ness' expressing doubt about being able to trigger PCEs and practice AF practices due to this physical discomfort is what needs to be attended to and dropped. Is it silly to overlay such physical discomfort with even more mental discomfort? Have you questioned the silliness of allowing such self-narrative themed locked in thought loops to condition how and what is perceived?

Perhaps there is a way to change that habitual tendency and get back to apperceptive awareness of the current moment?
Also, read and re-read Richard's articles/journal if 'you' are motivated by the context he presents his teachings in. Read this again carefully and slowly soaking up each meaning of each word and see if it can be applied to the entire field of experience right now including the physical discomfort. See if there can't be a way to actually enjoy the physical discomfort on some level by seeing it with 'new eyes' as opposed to the habitual ones that judge such discomfort a block to practice.

Nick
thumbnail
David Nelson, modified 11 Years ago at 7/13/12 4:13 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/13/12 4:13 PM

RE: PCE, AF and physical suffering

Posts: 28 Join Date: 10/20/10 Recent Posts
I found this interesting from that link: "Apperceptiveness is seeing the birth, growth, and maturation of all phenomena ... and it is seeing all phenomena age, decay and die."