Third Jhana and the Dark Night

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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 11 Years ago at 6/5/12 1:45 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/5/12 1:43 AM

Third Jhana and the Dark Night

Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
Hi all,

I am currently reaching third jhana through metta - this is quite rewarding in itself but I seem to be having trouble getting to fourth (or possibly recognising that I'm in it..)

It occurs to me that I have 2 options: Bearing in mind that it might be the dark night symptoms (which the jhana smooths out considerably but are still there in 3rd) stopping me getting to 4th, I could do some insight orientated practice like return to my previous practice of body scanning or perhaps contemplate the 5 aggregates or explore the DN sensations. Or, I could figure out how to continue on to 4th.

If I do insight work, the question is how do I remain in third jhana and do this? Is it just a matter of carefully balancing attention between the feeling of contentment-bodily-bliss in 3rd and the object of insight?

If continuing on to 4th (my preferred option), what is the object I should be inclining toward? I reach a stage where the pleasure in the body seems to expand outward for a time (and increase in intensity) then contract for a period. This can go on a long time. If I focus on feeling the gentle radiation of metta this seems to work well and "things are happening", i.e. there is the expansion/contraction as well as a "billowy" "floaty" feeling in the body. At its height the pleasure in the body turns into something approximating the "uniform subtle sensations" experienced through pure Goenka in equanimity or the a&p (and the thought occurs that maybe i've dropped out of the jhana and that's actually what it is!).

Any thoughts as to how to proceed much appreciated,
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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 11 Years ago at 6/5/12 5:56 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/5/12 5:56 AM

RE: Third Jhana and the Dark Night

Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
Me:
If continuing on to 4th (my preferred option), what is the object I should be inclining toward? I reach a stage where the pleasure in the body seems to expand outward for a time (and increase in intensity) then contract for a period. This can go on a long time. If I focus on feeling the gentle radiation of metta this seems to work well and "things are happening", i.e. there is the expansion/contraction as well as a "billowy" "floaty" feeling in the body. At its height the pleasure in the body turns into something approximating the "uniform subtle sensations" experienced through pure Goenka in equanimity or the a&p (and the thought occurs that maybe i've dropped out of the jhana and that's actually what it is!).


I managed to follow the floaty/billowy part of this this morning and it did indeed seem to lead to something very much like the vipassana stage of equanimity - a uniform tingling/flickering through the body, nothing much happening kind of thing but with a deep unshakable calm.

My guess is that I had dropped out of jhana and was in what I have experienced many times as the coming out of the DN into EQ. Not a bad thing by any means, but my goal is to cross into the 4th samatha-vipassana jhana. Also, it seems impossible to "radiate metta" after a while in 3rd jhana... it ends up being a focus on the bodily tingling/flickering only. A sustained effort on this resulted in a little zigzag squiggly motion felt through the whole body and a shift into high gear (in regards to the tingling/flckering/pleasurable body sensations) that in review seemed to mark the start of equanimity nana.

Does that make sense to anyone else?
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Ian And, modified 11 Years ago at 6/5/12 11:44 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/5/12 11:44 AM

RE: Third Jhana and the Dark Night

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Bagpuss The Gnome:

I am currently reaching third jhana through metta - this is quite rewarding in itself but I seem to be having trouble getting to fourth (or possibly recognising that I'm in it..)

Or possibly a result of both: not being able to recognize it while sabotaging your own efforts by continuing to practice metta AFTER having reached 3rd. The practice of metta that was recommended to you was for the purpose of quieting piti (i.e. to get piti to subside) yes? Well, then, once piti has subsided, you quit focusing on metta, as it has achieved its intended purpose. See?

Bagpuss The Gnome:

It occurs to me that I have 2 options: Bearing in mind that it might be the dark night symptoms (which the jhana smooths out considerably but are still there in 3rd) stopping me getting to 4th, I could do some insight orientated practice like return to my previous practice of body scanning or perhaps contemplate the 5 aggregates or explore the DN sensations. Or, I could figure out how to continue on to 4th.

You have a tendency to over-think these things. STOP THAT! RIGHT NOW, if you want to succeed at attaining your goal!

Bagpuss The Gnome:

If I do insight work, the question is how do I remain in third jhana and do this?

Precisely. So, don't do it! If you want to get to fourth jhana (as it has been described) you have to quiet the mind even further, that is, lose the busy-ness of sukha, which is an agitating mental factor. See? Sukha is the last factor to go. So, focus on achieving that end and leave all else alone!

Bagpuss The Gnome:

If continuing on to 4th (my preferred option), what is the object I should be inclining toward?

A peaceful, quiet, non-agitated mind. Go deeper into the CALM! Watch for the diminution of the breath to help you realize you are achieving this goal of going deeper into the calm. And: STOP THINKING SO MUCH while you're doing this! Do not concentrate on metta; that should have been dropped after having reached 3rd jhana.

Bagpuss The Gnome:

I managed to follow the floaty/billowy part of this this morning and it did indeed seem to lead to something very much like the vipassana stage of equanimity - a uniform tingling/flickering through the body, nothing much happening kind of thing but with a deep unshakable calm.

That deep unshakable calm (sans piti and sukha or any other mental disturbance) is likely 4th jhana. Duh!

Equanimity is a factor of mind connected to perception (sanna). It's something you learn to do and practice, i.e. even mindedness; not something that just overtakes you as a result of meditation. Equanimity toward formations is a willed, conscious exercise.

A few little tweeks to your practice and you'll be good to go.
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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 11 Years ago at 6/5/12 12:12 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/5/12 12:12 PM

RE: Third Jhana and the Dark Night

Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
The Boss:
You have a tendency to over-think these things. STOP THAT! RIGHT NOW, if you want to succeed at attaining your goal!


Yes sir! Understood.

I laughed pretty good when I read that emoticon

Me:
If continuing on to 4th (my preferred option), what is the object I should be inclining toward?


Ian:
A peaceful, quiet, non-agitated mind. Go deeper into the CALM! Watch for the diminution of the breath to help you realize you are achieving this goal of going deeper into the calm. And: STOP THINKING SO MUCH while you're doing this! Do not concentrate on metta; that should have been dropped after having reached 3rd jhana.


Got it. This is great, thanks. I will get right on it.

Ian:
That deep unshakable calm (sans piti and sukha or any other mental disturbance) is likely 4th jhana. Duh!


Ah, well here's my confusion then. I thought all the bodily stuff had to drop to be in fourth..? (though it had occurred to me that I was in fourth and the bodily stuff was my usual goenka-style perception of sensations)

Thanks for the advice and the laughs Ian!
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Ian And, modified 11 Years ago at 6/5/12 12:44 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/5/12 12:37 PM

RE: Third Jhana and the Dark Night

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Bagpuss The Gnome:

Ian:
That deep unshakable calm (sans piti and sukha or any other mental disturbance) is likely 4th jhana. Duh!


Ah, well here's my confusion then. I thought all the bodily stuff had to drop to be in fourth..? (though it had occurred to me that I was in fourth and the bodily stuff was my usual goenka-style perception of sensations)

Glad you got a laugh out of that.

There's that over-thinking again, sabotaging your efforts. Don't fret too much, I had the same problem. It's just something you have to realize when you are doing it.

The mind isn't always cut off from the senses while in 4th. Therefore, you can still be aware of outer sensation ("body stuff") while in 4th. Don't wholesale "believe" everything you read about absorption samadhi. (I'm thinking primarily of Ajahn Brahm's "opinion" that jhana is only achieved when the mind is oblivious to all else [all sensate experience].) Yes, it is possible to achieve a jhana state like that, but not all jhana states (absorption concentration states) are like that. There's plenty of wiggle room for various shades in between these so-called "absolute state" descriptions like the one promoted by Brahm.

Once you have more experience (entering and leaving absorption states), you'll understand this better. It takes time to develop, because the mind is not used to observing such subtle detail (as the progression through the four levels of absorption). I questioned myself (my perception of my experience) for several years AFTER I had first achieved absorption. So, it's par for the course.
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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 11 Years ago at 6/6/12 6:13 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/6/12 6:12 AM

RE: Third Jhana and the Dark Night

Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
Nailed it.

Last 2 sits 4th jhana seemed quite easy to achieve.

  • 1st jhana: verbalising/visualising - generating metta
  • 2nd jhana: just visualising occasionally, focus on feeling the metta radiate
  • 3rd jhana: focus on the sukkha till it matures, then focusing on the thread of silence and stillness that underlies experience. I can kind of pick this out the way I can pick out joy - it's harder to do, more subtle, but it's the same thing really.
  • 4th jhana: focus remains on the calm stillness, letting it mature.


During my morning sit i reached 4th in about 15mins and spent the next 45 in stillness. I seemed to have my DN sensations for a while but when they are seen with that kind of clarity they hold far less sway over the balance of the mind. When they were mostly gone the extremely fine body tingling would come and go in waves lasting minutes, 10's of minutes till it became pretty much the dominant sensation. I tried various things here: increasing it by focusing on it, keeping focused on the stillness, trying to expand into the base of infinite space.

The first kind of worked but at the expense of the calm. The second seemed to increase the speed/fineness of the sensations at the same time as deepening the jhana (yay for that!) and the third gave me a bit of a headache emoticon