I'm starting a thread here with the intent to log my practice and ongoing exploration of PCE's and the process of seeming to make the PCE state permanent.I recognize there is a schizm between the official AF movement and many at DHO specifically around what Actual Freedom is, how you get there and its relationship to other contemplative practices. Fortunately I don't have to concern myself too much with all of that (yet) as I'm just beginning and I need to get some genuine PCE's under my belt to examine. And while both camps disagree on whether AF can be only be attained exclusively through the strict use of official Actualism practices, both camps seem to agree that PCEs are possible through a variety of techniques, so perhaps I can be a little flexible in this early stage :-)

My goal is to have and explore genuine PCE states to determine if a more permanent version of that state is something I want to attain for myself. I do know that the reports that I've viewed shared by Richard, Trent and Tarin seem to point to a superior state of being that is worthwhile to pursue regardless if Richard acknowledges the other 2 as having experienced the same. So assuming I reach PCE state and can investigate for myself and that I decide I like it enough to pursue, I'll then have to decide whether to do it in a hybrid DHO fashion or a more strict AF fashion.

Here is some practice background to provide context:

This post discusses my background and my formal practice through stream entry:
Beginning practice through stream entry
Here is a detailed account of another path:
End of Sabbatical/Path Experience
After sharing the details of the experience and how I felt changed by it, Daniel and Vince Horn seemed to think I was talking about Anagami territory. Kenneth was skeptical and thought it was second path because I didn't have a distinct memory of a different second path experience. I tend to think it's 3rd Path in the MTCTOTB model because of how much of a fundamental shift there was in how I processed the world and a significant reduction in day to day suffering. Ultimately, I don't give a shit what it's called. Whatever I've attained, it's awesome and I speculate here mainly for the purposes of orienting for further practice.

Concentration has never really been a strong point in my practice. I've fallen into some Jhana's randomly during insight practice. Formal Jhana practice never yielded much in real development. Though my initial Jhana practice was prior to first path. After my last path, I played around with them some at the end of the retreat. It seemed not too difficult to use intention to move into soft states that seemed to corrolate to the specific qualities of Jhana's 1-4 but for whatever reason, I didn't have much interest in pursuing and haven't had much interest since. Conceptually it seems a great idea, but the intrinsic motivation to pursue has not been there.

For the last 3 years I've continued to practice doing a mix of choiceless awareness, basic breath meditation and metta. I haven't had much drive to push forward intensively like the early days. I recognize conceptually there is more to do on the Insight path, I just haven't been especially motivated to do it. But I do enjoy my daily practice and yearly 7-10 day retreats.

However, I've spent a lot of time over the last several days catching up on the AF threads and drama and reading the AF site. The descriptions of and the arguments made for living in a state of AF or permanent PCE seem very compelling and motivating. This is definitely something I want to dive into and understand for myself (hence the reason for this thread).

So moving forward, my initial approach is as follows.
1) Habituate and internalize the HAIETMOBA inquiry throughout daily life
2) gently incline mildly pleasant and alert states as I move through the day
3) Formal practice consisting of simple breath meditation to to stimulate pleasant body sensations and encourage general sensuousness and pleasant states while asking HAIETMOBA regularly
4) Investigate Gross affective reactions that rise (I'll worry about the subtle stuff and increasing resolution later)
5) Continue to read through the AF website, developing a deeper understanding of the AF conceptual knowledge and a fluency in their terminology and maps
6) Have awesome PCE's
7) Profit!!!! :-D

I want to keep the principles simple to start with until some proficiency is gained and I can investigate the PCE experience for myself.

Anyway, that's all I got for now. Reports coming soon.

Lee

Hey Lee,

My personal advice would be to keep as far away from those debates as possible. I don't think they'll be beneficial for your practice at all, especially since you haven't experienced a PCE yet. Without direct experience of the PCE you're likely to tailspin all over the place trying to figure out what everyone is on about and it will be a mega waste of your time... time you could have spent just having fun and cultivating the happiness it takes for "you" to slip away and experience the perfection of a PCE. I tend to think debates and politics in general get boring really fast, so reading lengthy posts about them is useless for me (could be different for others, who knows). Really, if you want to see what a PCE is like.. and I said something to this effect in another thread recently... ditch conceptual, ditch trying to cognize what it might be like, go for the tangible experience of cultivating feelings of happiness. See how actual things that exist are already complete, whole, not lacking anything, immediate, direct, without gap or filter, wonderful, magical, and perfect right here, right now. There's more to it than that.. and I can detail it more later if you want. Ask as many questions as are helpful.

Some of your prior practice sounds a bit like mine. I started off very straight up Mahasi and upon landing path, pretty much ditched that. At that point his style seemed clumsy and heavy handed and adding an extra step... so I moved to a more choiceless awareness style because it was paying attention without the added conceptualization of noting. Then I went really purely Actualism for a while. Then back to Buddhism trying to land jhana... blah blah.. back and forth forevah evah, much to my chagrin. It certainly caused a shit ton of extra stress, so don't bother. Find the approach that works with your sensibilities, personality, style of learning, style of fun, etc. And please keep us updated.

Werd.
Steph

↑
What she said...

I'll see if there's anything I can suggest based on the list you've made:



1. When you're doing this, try not to let the question become a mantra or just some rote repetition, really tune into how "you" are experiencing this moment of being alive every single time you as it. Look at your whole experience, don't just focus on what's happening internally as that's only half the story; look at bodily sensations, mental triggers or thought-loops that come up, the way light refracts on things in the visual field, the way sound seems to bounce off of surfaces and tune into the details.

2. It may interest you to know that the technique of attentiveness described on the AFT site is identical to mindfulness, if the latter is done correctly. Be inclusively aware of your entire experience, if you've gotten 3rd Path then this shouldn't be too much of a problem, look at the sense of a background to the 'thing' and how that's not any different to the perception of a foreground.

With regards to pleasant feelings, maximize the shit out of them; simple as that. If you're not happy right now, remind yourself that this right here is the only moment you've got of being alive, any idea of a future is only implied by thoughts and, much as you can probably assume that you'll live for another moment at least, you don't know that for certain. This is really important to understand.

3. Do what works. If you're following the AFT model I'd just stick to following the practices described there, but if you're taking more of a hybridized approach then Nick's written a lot of good stuff over at The Hamilton Project blog. Also, Justine, one of the very few people confirmed to be "AF" by Richard, has recently started a blog of his own which may be of interest to you.

4. Look at the beliefs which underlie those feelings, what it is that causes them to arise and the ways in which they present themselves 'in' awareness. A lot of this is about dismantling beliefs and investigating the mental patterns involved in that, but your experience with insight should stand you in good stead for this aspect of the practice.

5. It's worth reading the AFT site and getting to grips with the exact ways in which certain words are used, but the site is incredibly repetitive and poorly laid out. I recommend starting with the library of topics and glossary of terms as I found it much easier to navigate from there.

6. "You" don't "have" a PCE, it's what occurs when "you" as an identity are out of the picture. Don't aim for the PCE, turning it into a goal is the opposite direction from where you want to be going, cultivate naivetè, sincerity and felicitous feeling so that a PCE can become evident and it'll happen.

7. Profit is always win, win is always profit.

Bear in mind that I'm not coming at this from a 100% AFT approach, this is just some stuff that's worked for me and which may be of use to you.

Hi Steph,

Thanks for the input.

Well I've already spent a fair amount of time reviewing. I definitely see the danger in in tailspinning however it can be interesting how the heated debates can occasionally open new and deeper understandings into some topics as people often dig a little deeper to make their points. Overall though I'd prefer to focus practicing and learning something new rather than spinning in in perpetual assaults of rhetoric.

On the topic of PCE's I've done a lot of reflections on possible PCE's I've had in the past to hold as pointers. And while I've had some peak meditative experiences that approximate, they don't quite seem to have the qualities described in detail on the AF site.

I do have a handful of memories on different retreats mostly at IMS and mostly during walking periods outside in which I wasn't focused on awareness or noting, but just lost in the wonder immediacy and clarity of the experiential world. Sometimes a few seconds, or few minutes or even up to 5 or 10 minutes. I didn't have a framework to categorize those experiences. But generally I remember awe, wonder, delight, clarity, vividness and some sensations such as coldness of the 50 degree weather on my bare arms and rather than feeling unpleasant, the coldness was amazingly vibrant and pleasant. Unfortunately, I don't have detailed enough memories to really know if they were PCE's EE's or something else, but they were quite amazing. I suspect they would be a good direction to shoot for.

Sentence.
Lee

Great Advice! Thanks! I've also been diving into this topic deeper on the AFT site and another thing that jumps out at me is the emphasis on the word "How" and how it was chosen specifically as opposed to "What". That definitely changes the nature of the inquiry and gives it a new spin.
.

I've been considering the AFT model versus the hybrid approach a lot. I'm leaning towards AFT as despite certain oddities of presentation, it seems to have a bit more of a track record (for now). And I don't actually mind sifting through all the long repetitive prose. I also don't mind setting one model aside for now and starting with another fresh. I'm not much concerned with an objective truth in a conceptual frame work as I am with embracing models that are most conducive and internally consistent enough to fuel progress.

So I think I'll be setting aside meditation for now so as not to confuse things and to really give it a fair go. A lot of what Richard says on the subject is starting to make more sense to me. I know for me, it's very easy for me to begin abiding in feelings of awareness, presence or being when I meditate and as i reflect and am honest with myself, I habitually use that abiding to disconnect, disassociate and take vacations from the daily shit and muck of life. And I do this both on the cushion and off. Which can be counterproductive in 2 ways. First if I'm tuning out of the shit, I'm losing precious fuel for the HAIETMOBA contemplation. Also, if a sense of emptiness/presence/being/awareness are all affectives feeling, and I'm abiding in it, then I'm definitely going the wrong direction.


More great advice.

Thanks. Today I spent quite a bit of time reviewing the HAIETMOBA, PCE and Pure Intent sections


This was a bit tongue in cheek to setup point 7

Yea, ditto especially on #1 of what Tommy said. Ask him about submodalities sometime... haha.

And you're very welcome! Just paying it forward...

So with those experiences you had, I think you have a good idea in focusing back on those to remember their qualities as a way to bring 'em back. People here have said that "remembering" the PCE is a good way to incline back towards it. I've tried that in practice and although it didn't always necessarily result in another PCE, it sure kept felicity up and running really well. I've only had 2 full blown PCE's that lasted like an hour or two each.. and the rest have been little snippets that occur day to day. My ongoing experience now is really refined & clear EE with brief PCE's... like I'll be going about my day ultra happy, and then outta nowhere for a few seconds the unmistakable magic directness of the PCE will flash... just looking at a tree or walking around or whatever. Actually, that reminds me of another good tip to mention. Let the element of surprise be your guiding force - that scintillating gravitational thing where it's obvious that nobody is in control and there's something kinda magnetic happening to course you along.

Fun stuff!