working on 3rd - when I don't know what's right.

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Julie V, modified 11 Years ago at 8/2/12 11:57 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/2/12 11:57 AM

working on 3rd - when I don't know what's right.

Posts: 82 Join Date: 8/17/10 Recent Posts
I have been having a little problem putting things into words, but for the past six months or so, I feel that I have been having some problems knowing what the right attitude is. It seems everything can be right and wrong at the same time. In a way, it's not so clear what's I'm working on exactly and what exactly I'm caught or identified with. It seems eventually after noticing, and experiencing trial and error, things finally resolved, and it became clearer, but then that usually took at least a month to "figure out". Is there a better way to work on this? (Well ... mental noting has not been helpful lately - usually causes aversion to experience. Noticing and observing and letting things be seems to work better for me.)

To be specific, I would give examples. I think I used to not wanting help from other people and be independent, but then it seems I really really need help at some points, at which points I seemed to learn to seek a lot of help from a teacher. I just moved to a different country a few months ago, so I thought I should still seek help. I was trying to search for a new teacher (unsuccessfully) then. But then, I think I should stop because I might be too attached to help. (I definitely experiencing a lot of blockage around lower abdomen (2nd chakra) area).

I'm actually asking this question, not so much because worrying about progress, but more because I will still be living with my parents for the next month or two or so, and I don't want to fight with my parents due to misunderstanding. I know that I can't decide what to do based on my parents' feelings, which could be based on attachment, but at the same time, moving away from standard, usual ways of living and interacting definitely causes some stress in our relationship (which I'm trying to avoid, if it's not necessary).

Any opinions and comments are really appreciated. Thanks!
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Tommy M, modified 11 Years ago at 8/2/12 3:15 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/2/12 3:15 PM

RE: working on 3rd - when I don't know what's right.

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
Hey Julie,

It sounds like you're probably in the dukkha ñanas of this cycle, so you're current approach of "noticing, observing and letting things be" is ideal. "Dark Night", the later stages in particular, were a big lesson in surrendering to what's occurring but proved more important than I even realized at that point in my practice. Try just using bare sensate awareness to whatever's arising, don't "note" it, experience it as clearly as possible and see how it's still subject to the 3C's; in that moment, you too, the apparently existing subject to this apparently existing object, are found to be impermanent and luminous in the same way as that which is perceived. Neither can exist without the other, each implies it's opposite so look closer at what seems to 'contain' those opposing, but simultaneously arising, concepts.

Don't neglect attention to the subtle aspects of your experience; distance, time, space, awareness, attention itself, cognitive processes...it's like a big game of hide and seek, but the trick is to see that you're playing it by yourself.
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Julie V, modified 11 Years ago at 8/3/12 9:05 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/3/12 9:05 AM

RE: working on 3rd - when I don't know what's right.

Posts: 82 Join Date: 8/17/10 Recent Posts
I think you're right; based on how I feel and how I experience the world, it seems I'm working with knowledge of disenchantment at the moment. Although for the bigger cycles, I might be with equanimity somehow. I judged this from the fact that everything I was worried about 5-6 months ago keeps unfolding in a perfect way. It seems that for each of the bigger cycles, I passed through each of the insights first until I got passed re-observation. At which points, for equanimity, I seem to be experiencing each of the dark night knowledge in subsequent order, but in a way, everything is unfolding here. Then, surrender happens only after desire for delivery knowledge, when I have already tried every possible ordinary solution. Does this sound somewhat like what you experienced somehow?

I wonder if you can elaborate a little bit on what you mean by "distance". Does techniques and what I notice really matter anyway? I feel that no matter how I practice and what techniques I use, things unfold in a pre-determining manner with respect to place and time. It seems techniques and letting things be simply just make it less painful to deal with these dark night stages and what I'm caught with.
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Tommy M, modified 11 Years ago at 8/5/12 7:05 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/5/12 7:05 PM

RE: working on 3rd - when I don't know what's right.

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
Does this sound somewhat like what you experienced somehow?

It sounds familiar, yes. Maybe try looking at what's still implying "effort" or anything which suggest that you're "trying"; look at how the mind labels sensation as "unpleasant" or "difficult", there's a definite mental movement towards such sensations which seems to involve a sort of paradoxical grasping, as if "I" am so desperate for any sort of stability that "I" will even cling to shit sensations rather than acknowledging them and letting them go.

I wonder if you can elaborate a little bit on what you mean by "distance".

Basically, try looking at the sensations which imply a space or distance between any object and your perception of it; there seems to be a 'space' between the two, but if you look more closely you can see how "distance" between you and this object is merely implied. If you look for things like dimensionality, space, distance, volume and other subtle spatial factors, especially when you're in Equanimity, it becomes apparent that there's no such object as "space" or "distance", just more sensations implying some sort of 'other' when, on closer inspection, you can't actually find these things outwith the mental projection of them.

Does techniques and what I notice really matter anyway?

In my opinion, yes.

Technique-wise, I recommend bare sensate attention as opposed to "noting", and would recommend the same thing to anyone post-1st path 'cause the mind is already accustomed to seeing the whole arising and passing of sensation by that point. What worked for me was to fully experience the 3C's in every sensation possible, like I said, it's like a game of hide and seek, but if you can stay attentive to what's occurring then the 'thing' unravels by itself.

As for "what" you notice, again it's just a matter of seeing everything and anything for what it is: Transient, empty and inherently unsatisfactory. There's only a finite amount of possible sensations and combinations thereof, so just stay with whatever's appearing and experience it clearly.

I feel that no matter how I practice and what techniques I use, things unfold in a pre-determining manner with respect to place and time.

That's not incorrect to say since things do seem to unfold of their own accord, so go for consistency and accuracy in your investigations over sheer volume. It will happen if you've gotten this far anyway, it's just a matter of seeing things in just the right way to allow the knot to untie itself. Investigate "place" and "time" too, see how, even though it may seem otherwise, there's no "place", no "here", no "now" which you can rest on or in so don't cling to anything. There can be a lot of distractions and cool stuff to play around with at 3rd Path so don't get lazy, or get stuck in the pure lands or trying to hit nirodha samapatti, just continue as you have but with an eye for the subtle aspects of experience which still imply some sort of space or super-space, or anything that seems to be "awareness".

It seems techniques and letting things be simply just make it less painful to deal with these dark night stages and what I'm caught with.

If it works for you, do it. Whether it's techniques, maps and models or whatever, they're all just tools to be utilized and then dropped when they cease to be of use. Don't get hung on technicalities as it's not required.
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Dodge E Knees, modified 11 Years ago at 8/6/12 2:01 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/6/12 2:01 PM

RE: working on 3rd - when I don't know what's right.

Posts: 74 Join Date: 9/25/11 Recent Posts
Hi Julie,

I seem to be in the same position as you. I've been working on 3rd to 4th now for twice as long as the first 3 paths together. Frustrating isn't it?

It's hard to know how to play it, if I investigate I just seem to cycle through the nanas so quick that I glean nothing. Just letting it happen by itself while paying attention seems to be the most natural way for me, in fact that is the only method I've really found useful..but I'm not making much progress at the moment! Then there is emptiness/ awareness/ rigpa, much lauded on the KFD site; I'm still not sure I know what that is.

I've actually been backsliding in formal practice recently; for all the mind-blowing jhanas and states, I'm just a bit weary of it. Having said that, I've been developing my off-cushion attitude a lot, which I've never really done before. That is where I want the insights to have an effect, so I'm going for the fake it to make it approach.

I'd be interested to hear how your pratice develops.

Take care.
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Tommy M, modified 11 Years ago at 8/6/12 3:37 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/6/12 3:37 PM

RE: working on 3rd - when I don't know what's right.

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
It's hard to know how to play it, if I investigate I just seem to cycle through the nanas so quick that I glean nothing. Just letting it happen by itself while paying attention seems to be the most natural way for me, in fact that is the only method I've really found useful..but I'm not making much progress at the moment!

Try looking closely at what still implies a subtle sense of duality, or any sort of subject/object split anywhere in experience; see how there's always that mental push/pull, like a little 'bounce' between what seems to be observing and what seems to be observed and try to catch the 'zero point' of that fluctuation. Where is it? Where does it come from and where does it go? Once it's seen clearly to be just as transient and empty as any other phenomena, the knot can unravel and the perceptual field does this sort of 'flip' as those distinctions drop away for the last time.

Turn attention back on itself and look at all those subtle cognitive processes; are "you" causing them? On what conditions are they dependent? Are they any different to anything else you've noticed so far? It's easy to say, "yeah, there's no difference in any of it and I already know there's no such thing as a self", but, as you know already, the experiencing of it is a different game entirely so don't let up on the investigation and observation. At the same time, don't push it 'cause more exertion and efforting isn't required at this stage; find a good balance of insight and concentration so that you can maintain enough stability of attention to get really deeply into it.
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Dodge E Knees, modified 11 Years ago at 8/6/12 3:53 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/6/12 3:53 PM

RE: working on 3rd - when I don't know what's right.

Posts: 74 Join Date: 9/25/11 Recent Posts
Hi Tommy,

Thanks a lot for the advice mate, it's good to have something to work on. I've noticed the 'bounce' between the sensations of self in the head and the object I'm trying to concentrate on, I'll watch it more closely.

Cheers!
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Tommy M, modified 11 Years ago at 8/6/12 4:58 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/6/12 4:58 PM

RE: working on 3rd - when I don't know what's right.

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
I've noticed the 'bounce' between the sensations of self in the head and the object I'm trying to concentrate on, I'll watch it more closely.

Nice. emoticon
Russell , modified 11 Years ago at 8/7/12 9:40 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/7/12 9:39 AM

RE: working on 3rd - when I don't know what's right.

Posts: 92 Join Date: 10/19/11 Recent Posts
Thanks for your posts in this thread Tommy. I am working towards third as well and just recently started getting dips into NS with a deep sinking feeling when I focus on a certain spot in my head, but I can never get past the 'event horizon.' Time to probably forget that happened and just keep sitting. Playing with the NS stuff is only going to distract me with all the efforting.
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Julie V, modified 11 Years ago at 8/7/12 10:40 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/7/12 10:40 AM

RE: working on 3rd - when I don't know what's right.

Posts: 82 Join Date: 8/17/10 Recent Posts
Thanks for your posts as well, Tommy. I think I will "try" bare sensate attention method as you said. The feelings of being uncertain or wanting to make progress or wanting something to happen are always worth investigating.
End in Sight, modified 11 Years ago at 8/7/12 11:32 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/7/12 11:32 AM

RE: working on 3rd - when I don't know what's right.

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
Russell .:
Thanks for your posts in this thread Tommy. I am working towards third as well and just recently started getting dips into NS with a deep sinking feeling when I focus on a certain spot in my head, but I can never get past the 'event horizon.' Time to probably forget that happened and just keep sitting. Playing with the NS stuff is only going to distract me with all the efforting.


Try going slowly from MCTB 1st to MCTB 8th jhana, with the prior intention to attain what you're looking to attain at the end of the process, without making any effort to do anything besides travel through these states, and see if that works differently. (Either now or when you're more confident that you have MCTB 3rd path. I don't know of any official, definitive way to tell if you've got it or not besides trying this.)
Russell , modified 11 Years ago at 8/7/12 1:50 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/7/12 1:50 PM

RE: working on 3rd - when I don't know what's right.

Posts: 92 Join Date: 10/19/11 Recent Posts
End in Sight:


Try going slowly from MCTB 1st to MCTB 8th jhana, with the prior intention to attain what you're looking to attain at the end of the process, without making any effort to do anything besides travel through these states, and see if that works differently. (Either now or when you're more confident that you have MCTB 3rd path. I don't know of any official, definitive way to tell if you've got it or not besides trying this.)


Will do. Thanks!
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Dodge E Knees, modified 11 Years ago at 8/7/12 2:20 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/7/12 2:20 PM

RE: working on 3rd - when I don't know what's right.

Posts: 74 Join Date: 9/25/11 Recent Posts
Sorry to keep jumping on your thread Julie, I just wanted to reply to Tommy.


Try looking closely at what still implies a subtle sense of duality, or any sort of subject/object split anywhere in experience; see how there's always that mental push/pull, like a little 'bounce' between what seems to be observing and what seems to be observed and try to catch the 'zero point' of that fluctuation. Where is it? Where does it come from and where does it go? Once it's seen clearly to be just as transient and empty as any other phenomena, the knot can unravel and the perceptual field does this sort of 'flip' as those distinctions drop away for the last time.


Hi Tommy,

I've been practising your advice today and I think you've done something to me man! I'd noticed the pull back from the object to the sensations of self in the head before and decided to look closer. When you start to look its difficult not to notice it. After a while I felt a bit sea-sick! It seems pretty obvious that this reinforces the sense of self and creates 'ownership' of sensations. I also wondered where the sense of location in the body comes from, maybe the 'bounce' has something to do with it. Not sure yet.

After a while of watching the attention of all other sensations returning to the sensations of self, I started to wonder where the sensations of self themselves go to? I entered the witness, asked that question and entered a different state. I would say it was still and peaceful, but on closer inspection that was just a mental overlay, there was no location, size or characteristics of any kind whatsoever.

I slipped in and out of that state for a while, then had a monster fruition. It felt like I was being sucked head-first through a portal to another dimension...except I got stuck halfway at the waist! When the buzz wore off I felt like my head, arms and torso were missing! That feeling persisted for some time afterwards. Very odd.

Ah well, yet another 3rd path bizarre incident that was not 'it'. It has certainly reinvigorated my urge for contemplative adventures though, so thanks a lot for the advice, you are a diamond (geeza).
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 8/7/12 2:49 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/7/12 2:49 PM

RE: working on 3rd - when I don't know what's right.

Posts: 563 Join Date: 2/25/11 Recent Posts
Some sort of significant stable shift in my attentional conditioning developed from using this technique, two weeks ago. I learned it at a retreat, and the shift happened while I was watching The Dark Knight Rises a couple of hours after returning. A summer blockbuster movie is actually quite useful for this, because it is designed to collapse attention to subject/object dualities in all sorts of intricate ways, many times a minute.

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