Hi guys,

For about a year now I've been dealing with anxiety/depression and panic attacks.. which I have been able to manage by my change in perspective on them. On September 5, I am slated to do a meditation retreat, and am caught between the extremes of using it as an experience for greater realization, and being frightened that I will slip in to madness. Perhaps the chronic feature of my anxiety/depression and panic attacks is that I feel "derealization", an experience that essentially leads me to feel as though there is a veil between me and the world ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derealization ). I am worried that 10 days of vipassana will make this worse for me. I have these thoughts, then I have thoughts that everything is transitory anyway, and the anxiety lessens. My experience feels akin to a "dark night" experience (keep wanting to type "knight" because of the batman movie that is out lol). Anyway, do you think I should move forward with the retreat as it will give me insight to moving beyond anxiety/depression, panic, derealization or do you believe I should be making other moves. Thanks all.

Excellent - then you already know what to do!


Maybe it will. But then again, you're much more prepared than an average person, since you already know how to deal with that.

I have experienced many panic attacks, fear, derealization, heart attack symptoms, loss of consciousness... Eventually I learned the "change of perspective" trick and got it all under control. You're not going to die and you're not going to go crazy, and the rest you can deal with by relaxing and letting it happen (which, conveniently, will actually make it stop, since the symptoms are self-induced anyway). And that's what overcoming the dark night is all about. I'm fairly certain that my panic attacks were a dark night symptom.

Thanks for the reassurance, N A lol. I should say that I still deal with them, but I have taken the edge off of them significantly. What about the derealization? What is your story?

Looking at wiki this seems to be the same thing that I know as depersonalisation. I don't typically feel this way, but have experienced it in the past from LSD trips. Recently I have noticed the presence of this kind of feeling whilst meditating, when signs of impermanence begin to show up, e.g. visual flickering. I asked the person I'm working with as best as I could, and he says the flicking (not the depersonalisation, which I didn't think to bring up at the time) was actually a proper sign.

Therefore I'd say what you are describing are valid progress markers. You should deal with it as noted above and should make good progress. On these grounds, I'd highly recommend the retreat.

Disclaimer: I'm probably in the dark night myself and are only just getting started with meditation. I'm pretty confident in this but you should check with someone who knows better.

What about derealization? It's transient, isn't it? If so, why are you afraid of it so much?

Thanks for your response, Adrian. I have gone back and forth tonight with whether or not I'm going to do it and about an hour ago I went back to the "yes" side lol. Look forward to hearing how you're progressing as well

Because this feature in particular feels more fixed and feels chronic. It doesn't seem to change, it just stays right where it is.. for this reason I am concerned about the retreat as I feel that it will debilitate me and with me having just completed school and needing to work to pay off these loans, that is no bueno for right now

I'm not a doctor, maybe you have some underlying medical condition for this. But then vipassana shouldn't affect it much once the retreat is over, since it won't change the underlying condition. Of course you would need to deal with the underlying condition separately.
Otherwise, it could be a sign that you're really getting somewhere.

Just note your arse off, 24 hrs a day for as many weeks as you can. Push yourself really hard and try to bust through to the other side.... the better side, where life is better. Whatever you do, remember the goal is to escape your current reality. Your mantra can be "I must escape the present moment". Before you begin, make sure to remove any sharp objects from the immediate vicinity, and have someone confiscate your belt and bed sheets, since they can be used for self-harm. Remember to inform the staff of your medical practitioners details and past history of medicines, and update your will. If you make it to the promised land, write back and tell us. There's a few of us here who are dying to know if the grass is greener in the promised land.

Seriously though... actually no that is serious.

If you're thinking "what???" let me spell it out for you.

Don't do it. Life - as it is right here and now - is fine. You are also fine. There's nothing wrong.....nothing the matter. Nothing needs fixing.

Your ego keeps itself centre stage by demanding to have something to 'fix' or 'improve'. And you can't see that paradox because your ego is in absolute control.

Ha

So essentially, don't go through with the meditation retreat; establish mindfulness of life here and now?

No, he's just ranting about various cultural aspects and misunderstandings about "goal-oriented practice." The advice he's giving is sarcasm. I would just ignore that whole post. Though anxiety attacks and depression may be trouble on a retreat that is too long. So start with a very short retreat first. Try a one day or three day retreat first.



All "things" are transient. So, yes, do not be afraid of "derealization"



The difference between depersonalization and derealization, is depersonalization is when the illusory "watcher" is outside the body rather than inside it. It is obviously temporary, as the "watcher" is an illusion that is being falsely extrapolated from sensations.

Derealization is when the visual aspects of reality start to look "unreal." Perhaps they are more colorful/or less colorful than usual, or look more cartoonish, like you're in the episode of the simpsons or something. It is temporary as it is simply a manifestation of sensations/conditions coming and going. It can be a sign of insight into reality, as it can really hone in on what is talked about as the "transient/insubstantial" nature of appearances. Looking at clouds in the sky and seeing them as strange or unreal is in some sense true, as the clouds are actually made out of tiny water particles, and if you were to go up to them in an airplane they would dissolve into an insubstantial fog. The reason it often co-occurs with depersonalization, is that having the "watcher" outside the body is a sort of "out of body experience" that makes the entire body feel that it is not in your "possession" and thus the entire world is sort of fuzzy and unreal. It is a sort of "ungrounding" experience, but it is impermanent and not a big deal.

EDIT: I would recommend starting with more basic forms of meditation to get a handle on the depression/anxiety before starting insight practices.

Contact the retreat leader with your concerns. They can give you much better advice than you'll be able to get on an internet forum (though there is good advice here.)

JB, as you know, there's lots of ways to define ego. One of the best I reckon is the belief: "something needs fixing or changing, either myself or the world needs to be better than it is in this very moment".

My sarcasm (hopefully you got it) was to draw attention to the glaring paradox of going to a retreat in order to change your experience. Can you see how this will strengthen ego?

I'm not totally against effort, but it must be the "effortless effort", which means that the impetus must come from outside of yourself. The impulse for a single-celled organism to evolve comes from Nature itself, not from the the cell's ego. If going on retreat is driven by needing to have a different experience, it cannot work. Successful retreats happen when you're 'called', not when you call yourself. Calling yourself = wanting a better experience. Being called = Life has decided this is my destiny.

This definitely seems true. The progress of insight happens on its own.

Right, thank you. I would not say that I necessarily crave a better experience by doing this, as again, I am aware of the anxious thought patterns circulating in my head here and there that I will go insane by doing this, but I do feel that things in my life have lined up at this specific time to allow me to do prolonged meditation. I eagerly await the opportunity to sit away from distractions and the "western life" - constantly shoved down our throats - that I have become disillusioned with in a lot of ways. Not trying to escape or force anything, simply seeking more clarity.

Is that opinion based on your own retreat experience or just a theory (that might or might not be true for all or only some people)?

J B!

Hi.

So, in my experience, the first part of the retreat - like the first four days - are going to be physically hard-going. You know: knees, rhomboids, abductors, adductors, neck. Sleep anyone? Sleepy, sleepy, sleepy. Did that cute person look my way? Is that person next to me, that really annoying "smile" person, sitting longer than me??? Gah! What the hell am I doing here? It's beautiful outside and I am sitting all day? In pain? This is not human, nor wise, nor compassionate...

blah blah blah.

Anyway, the first two-to-four days are a challenge.

Sooo, if the mind wants to go into a syndrome, because perseverating on a thought like that is the fastest way to get out of Dodge, so to speak, it will. Let me tell you, Day 2 is Excuseville for me. Mind just fills with reasons to leave: am I having a stroke? Did Achaan Chah have a stroke? Who is this teacher? Who do they think they are? Did they even mention Buddha? Did they mention Buddha too much? Hey, why didn't Buddha give equal rights to the ladies? Oof, my normal life is so nice [suddenly, the stress of that 'normal-perspective' life, yes, that one that got me to choose a meditation retreat, looks like a sweet bouquet of roses compared to Day 2.] Dang: should I have gone to see the actualism guy in Australia? Did I leave the windows open? Jeez, that'll cost dollars: better just go home. Gah, the food, the way of eating, the bathrooms. Aaaarrgh.

Maybe you will not at all have those kinds of thoughts. But for me, Day 2, is about not leaving and being nice to the body. I used to take naps. It's a good idea, I think.

Anyway, Day 3 and 4 things start to lighten up a little. A person uses all of their tools to stay. Many people take a few naps on the first two days. However, that can also become the entire retreat if one wants it. Then one will have "left" the retreat, without having gained the excellent exposure to oneself.

Sooooooo (more "o"s this time): here are my thoughts:
[indent]- Be gentle with body in the beginning. Burmese meditators are famous for a) being great, long meditators (hours, hours), and b) having super-casual posture. Bye bye zen, hello slouch-ananda.

- Meaning: be not afraid to sit on a bench in the shade, to take quiet walks, to take brisk walks

- do some easy stretches with long, slow deep breathing (at least 5-sec inhale and 5-second exhale, for 5 whole respirations: yup, that's 50 seconds per stretch. If ya can't do the breathing, you are in too deep; back off the stretch a little until you can breath deeply and stay in the stretch for at least five cycles). Let me know if you want 6 stretches and I'll send.

- keep taking attention to the breath. those flashy lights you have seen? When you become truly willing to stay with the breath, those lights become the bright, steady light of mind in focus...this is the road to samadhi: good concentration. Good concentration gives rise to otha stuffs. All you have to do is attend the breath closely, closely. The breath is going to change, get long, get short, get stomachy, get lung-y, just follow it. The upper lip may vibrate/buzz: yup, follow-closely like it's your meal ticket.

- just basically be nice. Try not to criticize the teacher. Mind is going to settle very nicely in a few days after breathing focus warms up and jumps in the game; finding trouble with the retreat or teacher is often just a means to distract oneself from one's own work

- follow the Golden Rule: avoid creating any trouble while/if you're struggling through the first days

- honestly, a lot of people feel better and start "getting into it" by Day 4-5. It is worthwhile.[/indent]


I don't know about this thing "derealization". If you experience this due to epilepsy or head trauma, you know, do tell the retreat folk. That's fair to them.

Otherwise, I think when we feel troubled, we look for trouble and there's a label waiting. I am not trivializing what you experience; not at all. Dark night is what it says: misery, fear, disgust. Lots of label-able experiences fit in these zones.


And, btw, if you liked any of the actualism stuff, I benefitted from their sensate delight stuff. I think deliberately taking up a wonderful, sensate receptivity (especially in a safe setting like retreat) is useful. Listen to birds, crickets, trees rustling, traffic, chatter, heartbeat, etc.

I want to say that I think you surely have this in you, but I really don't know. People do take extreme actions.

It's also okay if you do not do the retreat now. If there is too much apprehension at this point, there are lots of ways to start with a shorter experience.

best wishes.

NOTE TO MODERATOR:
Do we have two J B's now? One J B has posted 137 posts as of today, and this new J B has posted 6. Did I miss something? Otherwise, this could get confusing.

Katy,

I, the "other" J B on this site (I don't know who the one with 137 posts is as I am new here) thank you so much for your advice. Would you please send me the stretches? Any posture change recommendations?

I can not be clear that I am necessarily in the "Dark Night" as I have not been practicing/studying for a tremendous amount of time and don't want to disrespect those that have, and are now in the "classically defined" Dark night. In early 2011 I came to a place where I was incredibly disillusioned about everything and felt that my perspective on God, the universe, myself and morality had been turned inside out. This was following a string of panic attacks/depression and lead me to start having thoughts that life wasn't really worth it anymore. I started seeing the light and became able to manage these feelings a bit better and am nowhere near as close to the utter despair that I felt then. So maybe it was depression, maybe it was an early dark night experience? Is there a significant difference? I don't know.. but I'm just thankful to have come to a point where I can sit and meditate on impermanence hopefully without losing my marbles.


Thanks for all of the responses thus far

You bet!


If I can breathe deeply (at least a 5-sec inhale, 5-sec exhale) for 5 cycles, then I am deep enough in the stretch and can let my body gradually drop in deeper. Stay. with. the. breath. Deliberate breathing (versus the automated stuff going on most of the time) relaxes muscles. Every cell in the body is no more than one cell away from a molecule (like hemoglobin protein) delivering o2. So, in breathing long and slow deep breathes, you are being a ultra waiter: delivering delicious 02, removing waste products from the cells. Long. slow. deep breathing. No ego. No: I-need-to-stretch-more. The stretch is only so far as the breath (long, slow and deep) welcomes.

I had a whole bunch of Ray Long's stuff queued, but then found this site at some place calle frere street yoga: http://www.freretstreetyoga.com/asanas.html. I would add to this "wind expeller" (great for lower back tension, and, well, yes, farts/relief of blocked bowels...) and happy baby.

Edit: From this page and prior links I would do before bed and upon waking (long, slow,deep breathing):
1. wind expeller (2 minutes each leg) - you can be in bed for this
2. Happy baby (2-3 minutes) - you can be in bed for this
3. downward facing dog 2-4 minutes
4. Revolved Belly Pose (put pillows under knees to lessen stretch if needed)
5. Prasarita Padottanasana (be careful of hamstrings, have a folding chair in front of you if floor is too low for long, slow, deep breathing)
6. Gomukhasana (great for gluts and triceps; use sock or belt between hands if too hard, or let go of hands and just fold foward over knee (change this asana up with Sage Twist and half lord of the fishes)

Do read at least Ray long's first principles booklet. It will allow you to use the frere street prinout much better.

If you run a search for poses, run them with "Ray Long, M.D." He doesn't know me from shine-ola, but I recommend him a lot: great alignment and sensibility. That should take you to either his books, like Yoga Mat Companion 3: Anatomy for Backbends and Twists or his website and free books.

I've cited nearly all stretching asanas, but strengthening asanas are superbe too. So look at some, look them up with ray long's work, scribble a few notes into the printout and then just remember whatever asana you do, do long, slow deep breathing with it. Having that long, slow deep breathing can help keep a person from getting egotistical and going too far in a stretch and it deeply relaxes the muscles. I'm told by a pro-athlete that it changes the muscles memory after 2 minutes. I've found this in a physiology book also but there is no footnote to that point (to stay with a stretch for two minutes (which can take a few days to build to, even with long, slow, deep breathing)

It can be a lot to read, so I cut all the Ray Long links. Just be gentle, do not force anything, let the long, slow, deep breathing be the guide. Long, slow, deep breathing. It will be very natural if you change from counting 5 seconds to just counting the breath with the heart beats, too. E.g., when 6-7 heartbeat go by I would inhale/exhale. This is very good stuff, but you be the judge for yourself. Be very mindful and humble with the hamstrings: any thought "Oh, I should be able to stretch further than this" is major trouble: the hammy can take a year of steady yoga therapy to heal (long, slow deep breathing and gentle, long poses) and I do not see success with physical therapy treating the hamstrings, but I'm not an expert. Not creating a problem by being a gentle, attentive friend to your breath and body is the way to start and finish, avoid trouble.

I don't know the difference either. I will say that the 16 stages of the progress of insight, this sight and Daniel's own writing gave me the conviction that dark night is passable. Not avoidable, not sweetened, but transformable by going through it, with the breath, exercise, communication with people familiar to it, perseverance, gentleness.

okey dokey. good luck. Maybe you can update us when you get back, or just start a practice log now (if you don't go) or later (if you do go).

Thank you for this, Katy. I will keep this in mind during the retreat. I start tomorrow!

Did you feel nervous before going on your retreat? It is safe to say that nervous is how I'm feeling now lol

Oh yes. I felt apprehensive.

Even for this past weekend there was some apprehension and giddiness: I've experienced a drop of the benefits so my body gets eager to go, but I've experienced well more than a drop of lots of mental and physical struggle on retreat so my body also can physically respond with hesitation or stiffening.

Just keep in mind that all the thoughts and feelings you have now will be transformed, not avoided nor bypassed, but transformed. This is why compassionate/empathetic/kind receptivity or even benevolent neutrality are natural outcomes of self-study practices like meditation: one knows themselves well, moves through ones mindstates, and can use the outcome to help others when asked.

A friend keeps telling me to watch the documentary "The Interrupters", former gangsters who work with current gangsters. This is the idea of meditation: self-study, understanding. This makes one available to be a resource to others and to be receptive to learning/being taught oneself.

cheers. may you have sustained gentleness and sustained effort for this retreat.

Also, if you get very anxious or something on retreat, do practice long, slow, deep breathing.

Long, slow, deep breathing takes the breathing process out of the automated fight-flight part of the brain into the parasympathetic realm and actually relaxes the body.

Give it a go for 5-minutes and ask if the nature of fear/anxiety/disgust/misery/whatnot is changed/lessened by the breathing.

A person also has to want to finish the retreat or desire to leave the retreat will succeed, if not actually leaving then pervading the retreat with a spirit of unwillingness. That's okay, too. Just a different use the opportunity.

It is generally wonderful to finish a retreat, even if all best efforts do not culminate to some expectation.


edit: ummm, so JB#A, "it is generally wonderful to finish a retreat" may totally set up expectation! So, one just continually asks (if there's wanting to quit the retreat), "Can I finish this moment?"

Ah, thanks for the chance to let me try to explain more clearly.

So, yes, I went on a mini retreat this past weekend. Three days. Yes, I felt a little body-stiffening (mild apprehension) before going into it - my body knows now that the first full day of meditation is likely to have body aches.

However, this has changed a lot over practice and the insight that comes from practice. So, body aches and thoughts do occur, but they don't usually eat up a lot of time. They're a bit like junk mail - they arrive. They go. There's no reason to hold on to them.embellish on them, make them worse or inflame them with too much attention (though I do take care not to abuse the body with any harsh effort).

In the beginning though, it's totally normal (or at least commonly reported) to witness all those thoughts and spend time on them, believe them, fear them, love them, analyze them, scoff them, etc. Sitting with breath and watching let's one start to discern which thoughts are skillful, which aren't. How much attention does "derealization" need? Is a panic attack deflated when looking at it directly like it is a leaf with form and color, shiny and smoothe?

Yes, I do still grasp some experiences. Probably a lot. Gratification is a huge influence. Single-point concentration is such a comfortable condition for mind-body that it is normal, to me, to want it later and always. What I've learned though is that the only way that concentration arises is to just continue to place attention on the object (such as the breath). This is the only way the tremendous comfort of utmost concentration arises.

And I am aware that the concentration is not the end (so this lessens any huge wanting for it, while I still know its development is key). Concentration is developed so that insight can arise and insight inspires release from various wants, then targets all "wanting". To be clear, I am not finished and this is equivalent to saying "I am beginning now", too.

For example, if I am driving on a highway and just thinking and feeling in great abundance, I'll miss all sorts of signs for exits and historical markers and topography. Now, as I develop concentration, I begin to notice exits, historical markers, signs and topography. When I have utmost concentration (which is rare, but enough to whet my whistle thoroughly), some understandings arise. These are often "ineffable" because self-study needs no worded language: one is experiencing one's reality and actuality through oneself. Worded language is not needed inside one's own mind, so we say "insight" or "wisdom" arises, just because maybe an actual word, sentence, or equation did not arise, yet something clear and understandable did arise.

Yes, some understandings wear off, for me. Then others hit home with a tremendous potency. This summer the impact of certain 'insights' is starting to hit hard. This, I think, is a product of improved concentration and escalating habit/comfort of sati. My parents just visited, so I know I am still a big bozo though ;) (Meaning: the practice bears actual fruit in behaviour and I can see that this practice of "mine" has plenty of room to grow)

[edits: grammar, some clarifications (?)]

simple tools if you go on retreat and think you are being overwhelmed/'derealized' by the knowledges of suffering (aka: dark night)

1. resting accordingly
2. using long, slow, deep breathing for a few minutes if the mind is getting overwhelmingly provoked/agitated/influenced

3. doing moderate stretches you think you'll like and with long, slow, deep breathing

4. going outside or to a window to sit in sensate, open awareness - experiencing the senses with some delight (the natural sun light, the air smells, any movement/breezes of air, sounds...) - this can, like breathing, take the mind out of a concentrated, strong, and influential emotion into an equanimous openness/benign, intimate neutrality.

5. following the teacher's instructions. I have assumed (not a great idea) that the retreat will commence with a few days of breathing meditation, warming up the focus of the mind, and so I've emphasized minding the breath closely, closely, as the object. Perhaps they will start straight away on the body, who knows; the interview period allows for questions.

6. following effective behaviour, like the Golden Rule

Best wishes

Thank you very much for all the assistance/perspective that you have granted me, Katy. Spoken like a true veteran lol. I look forward to sharing my experience with you all. Now, I should probably finish packing, shower, do an entry in my journal and get 3 hours or so of sleep before my friend drives me down to the center. My best to you all.

JB (#A)

Thank you very much as well, J B #A, for all the perspective and experience you are giving me.

It seems to me that we are peers in a practice, like people in a pool learning to swim/play/manage in all depths and learning about the pool itself. So you certainly help me, too.

I should have checked back in.. hard to believe that it has been a month.

I found the retreat to have validated my desire to continue meditating and develop my equanimity. I didn't lose my mind like I thought I was going to, and in fact, I came to a place of great focus and equanimity which, I feel, has at least on some level, irreversibly changed my perspective on a lot of things. Ironically enough, it wasn't until I cam back to my "old life" that some of my old habits started to creep back up and my neuroses starting kicking back. More meditation it is. I wouldn't mind doing another retreat.

Thank you all so much for your help and concern.

Best,
JB #2

Welcome back.

If there is no DhO thread on returning to life after a retreat, maybe we can start one. Instructions could be useful. A personal journal from retreat to après-retreat could be useful, too. Just to see the difference in the mind from last day of retreat to third day back home, for example.

It is very normal to see retreat effects fade in daily life. However, to borrow from a friends analogy, this practice, bhavana, is actually developing (in both deconstructive and constructive ways) to something like a Ph.D., from some lesser grade, pre-school in my case ;) So I find even if it's sometimes three steps forward, two steps back, there is definitely that net change with sincere effort and a wholesome intention. Also, some shifts really only become apparent over several months (like 6-12).
That's good to know.

Useful. Good luck with that.