Where on the maps?

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Yuri Kuzyk, modified 9 Years ago at 9/21/12 9:35 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/21/12 9:35 AM

Where on the maps?

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My background is Taoist. The practice is similar to Vipassana but holds focus/awareness in two internal locations.

In 2001 I had the 'arising and passing away' experience followed by 4 months of absolute intense events covering a very broad spectrum. A lot of effort over the year resulted in all wild aspects completely settling.

The most interesting outcome is a new cognitive state. The stream of consciousness disappeared completely and has never returned. This includes trying to force any type of 'noise' including silent counting. However the actual ability to count (or perform any other 'normal' cognitive operations) functions as it always did. This state has remained constant since late 2001. Emotions are very slight and other components, such as REM sleep, are somewhat different.

At any point in time I can focus awareness or intent to move through the jhanas up to the eighth but there is also a tendency for these to occur spontaneously. I also have acute awareness of all aspects of non-verbal communication in people around me as well as full sensation for qi.

EEG is significantly different than the norm with extremely large peak at 12-13Hz. Have not had a chance for fMRI but that might be interesting too.

Any others out there with similar state?
m m a, modified 9 Years ago at 9/21/12 11:39 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/21/12 11:39 AM

RE: Where on the maps?

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Mario Nistri, modified 9 Years ago at 9/21/12 2:11 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/21/12 2:05 PM

RE: Where on the maps?

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If by "stream of consciousness" you mean thoughts, there is a nice discussion on something very similar to what you describe in the MTCB chapter on the thoughts model...


Bye!
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Yuri Kuzyk, modified 9 Years ago at 9/21/12 2:32 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/21/12 2:32 PM

RE: Where on the maps?

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Mario Nistri:
If by "stream of consciousness" you mean thoughts, there is a nice discussion on something very similar to what you describe in the MTCB chapter on the thoughts model...


Bye!



Interesting. There is some overlap with the teachings of the lineage.

The lineage regards the cognitive state change as required to fully access latent abilities. For example, an infant, tossed into water, can swim. But after a short period of time training/teaching is required (at least for the vast majority) to swim. Yet the ability itself must still be there.

Similarly, in order to access and use latent abilities one requires the correct training that results in the cognitive state change where what once were "unconscious" are now ordinary experience. One example is body language - it is now completely controlled.

The stream of consciousness is more a result of being in a cognitive state that is not truly synchronized with the underlying unconscious activity. Sort of like the results seen by Gazziniga (see "The User Illusion" for an overview) where ordinary consciousness is always lagging the unconscious aspect by at least 0.5 seconds.
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Pablo P, modified 9 Years ago at 9/22/12 8:53 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/22/12 8:53 AM

RE: Where on the maps?

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Hi,

My background is Taoist too, involved in Taijiquan, I Ching, Qi Gong, etc for over 15 years, but with no specific lineage I can be linked to. Which one is yours?

In the link below, I summarized for the Wiki section the Taoist Map as taught by Liu Hun Chieh and his disciple Bruce Frantzis. My main practice is derived from buddhist Bhante Vimalaramsi, which I found very similar to the taoist one. If possible, I would like to hear your description on your lineage's stages of enligtenment.

Liu Hung Chieh - Bruce Frantzis

Best,
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Yuri Kuzyk, modified 9 Years ago at 9/22/12 10:19 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/22/12 10:16 AM

RE: Where on the maps?

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Pablo . P:
Hi,

My background is Taoist too, involved in Taijiquan, I Ching, Qi Gong, etc for over 15 years, but with no specific lineage I can be linked to. Which one is yours?

In the link below, I summarized for the Wiki section the Taoist Map as taught by Liu Hun Chieh and his disciple Bruce Frantzis. My main practice is derived from buddhist Bhante Vimalaramsi, which I found very similar to the taoist one. If possible, I would like to hear your description on your lineage's stages of enligtenment.

Liu Hung Chieh - Bruce Frantzis

Best,


Unfortunately the link doesn't work for me.

My lineage is called Taiji Men or "supreme ultimate gate" in reference to the location used for focus during meditation. The Master who taught me said the lineage went back about 750 years. Similarities in form, teachings and some ceremonies indicate that it was likely founded by someone from Shang-Ch'ing.

There was never very much in the way of lectures or writings. Three 'gateless gates' are recognized that correspond to

  • Mind and body
  • The arising and passing away
  • Change of lineage


There is no term for any type of final state for a practitioner. In fact, there was an admonishment to one student in a class regarding referring to anyone as "enlightened".

The only time there was more guidance (in terms of attention) was during dark night. We had a version of the three characteristics and then teachings (hands-on work) for things like qi healing, fu and medicines. The fundamental guidance being to stick with the practice and trust in the process.

I am very interested in the universality of the maps which seems to parallel universality of facial expressions for emotions, for example. This is an area well worth exploring.
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Pablo P, modified 9 Years ago at 9/22/12 3:31 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/22/12 3:31 PM

RE: Where on the maps?

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You can find the text of the link here at DhO, at the top click "Wiki", then scroll down to "the Maps of Meditation" and the last one will be "taoist map".

Thanks for writing about your lineage and map of meditation. The universality of maps is a subject that Daniel Ingram, the founder of DhO, have researched for years and wrote long about in his book MCTB. Lately he is stating about different outcomes for different traditions, and his rewriting his book.
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Blue , modified 9 Years ago at 9/22/12 10:27 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/22/12 10:27 AM

RE: Where on the maps?

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Sounds like you dipped right? The main clue would be if you notice yourself cycling through the stages at all.



ps. the map is objective and universal
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Nikolai , modified 9 Years ago at 9/23/12 3:25 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/23/12 3:20 AM

RE: Where on the maps?

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Blue .:

ps. the map is objective and universal


I don't agree. There is no way you could know that for sure. No absolutes. There may be variations in experience depending on techniques and manner of practice.
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Blue , modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 5:23 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 5:23 PM

RE: Where on the maps?

Posts: 267 Join Date: 7/14/11 Recent Posts
I'll be more clear:

1) There is only one final enlightenment regardless of technique.

2) No student will ever experience a dukkha nana before the A&P

3) Students at equivalavent attainments are equally pure. ie. All arahants are equally pure.

I think this is clear and was also a statement Acariya Mun made after it was communicated to him in a Nimitta (which is extremely strong evidence).

What I mean by pure is not exactly clear, but rather I mean that there are certain variables the same for all arahants, while other things may vary.

If you have counterexamples to the above I'm happy to hear them. Keep in mind I understand that there are people able to reach arahanthood by hearing a single statement from the buddha, and I am aware that certain lineagues (non-dual ect.) use direct techniques that let you dip in a single moment (without traveling the nanas) but these examples don't contradict the above.
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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 6:38 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 6:38 PM

RE: Where on the maps?

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1) There is only one final enlightenment regardless of technique.

Really? Is that what you've attained? Did you practice hinyana, mahayana and vajrayana too?

2) No student will ever experience a dukkha nana before the A&P

That's a massive generalization and assumes that all practitioners would be using the Progress of Insight model to conceptualize their experience. You can't say with certainty that this is truly the case for every practitioner.

3) Students at equivalavent attainments are equally pure. ie. All arahants are equally pure.

That would depend on the model used and the tradition it originated in, for example Arahatship as you've claimed on here is based on the model presented in MCTB but doesn't stand up to scrutiny when compared to, for example, the fetter model.

and I am aware that certain lineagues (non-dual ect.) use direct techniques that let you dip in a single moment (without traveling the nanas) but these examples don't contradict the above.

I disagree that they're not contradictory, you're suggesting that the process of awakening is linear and adheres to this objective, independently existing map. Dan's probably the best guy to ask about this, he knows the maps inside out and studied a lot of the other models out there.
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Blue , modified 9 Years ago at 9/26/12 12:55 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/25/12 11:59 PM

RE: Where on the maps?

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Yadid: Glad you brought these up. I had forgotten completely about them. Regardless, they do not contradict the spirit of what I am saying. Each one is still a precise, objective attainment.

Nikolai: Maybe sometime

Tommy:

These are not some arbitrary levels of a video game that we go through to get a reward.

Calling them "maps" is even a misnomer

There is nothing more than deductive logic.

Look at the stages carefully and you will see a linear progression, not unlike something Descartes might lay out:

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=16_stages_of_Insight_Knowledge

1) I see everything in the universe is either mind or matter - Namarupa nana

5) I see that if I do not react to the bad feelings they dissolve on their own, never to return. I am so happy! - A&P

6) If everything dissolves, What am I? I will dissolve. I am terrified - Terror Dukkha Nana

7) Everything vanishes after some period of time,I cannot hold onto anything, life is so unsatisfactory -Unsatisfied Dukkha Nana

9) I want out of this - Deliverance

10) I am out - Fruition


Please see the stunning beauty in this. It is an elegant universe.
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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago at 9/27/12 9:23 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/27/12 9:22 AM

RE: Where on the maps?

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Tommy:

These are not some arbitrary levels of a video game that we go through to get a reward.

Calling them "maps" is even a misnomer

There is nothing more than deductive logic.

Look at the stages carefully and you will see a linear progression, not unlike something Descartes might lay out:

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=16_stages_of_Insight_Knowledge

1) I see everything in the universe is either mind or matter - Namarupa nana

5) I see that if I do not react to the bad feelings they dissolve on their own, never to return. I am so happy! - A&P

6) If everything dissolves, What am I? I will dissolve. I am terrified - Terror Dukkha Nana

7) Everything vanishes after some period of time,I cannot hold onto anything, life is so unsatisfactory -Unsatisfied Dukkha Nana

9) I want out of this - Deliverance

10) I am out - Fruition


Please see the stunning beauty in this. It is an elegant universe.

All you're doing is aligning one conceptual model with another, that doesn't prove objective existence and, contrary to your suggestion, I can assure you that I never implied anything about "video game"-like levels in my replies. Also, you've basically shoehorned two models together in an attempt to bolster your argument, doesn't that demonstrate something here?

Any and all conceptual models, whether it's the progress of insight or the Leary's 8-Circuit Model can be described as "maps" since a map is just a symbolic representation and, given that the actuality of moment-by-moment 'subjective' experience cannot be conveyed between two human beings without the use of symbols/language, your assertion that "calling them maps is even a misnomer" is incorrect. Based on your statement, calling anything by any name is a misnomer, but that's only correct to say from an absolute point-of-view, not the relative level from which we all communicate.

I know what you're saying, much as it may not seem to be the case, but to posit that these states and stages have some objective existence is nonsense. They are convenient descriptions of phenomenological experience which, while common to many people, can't be truly said to have any sort of objective existence.

As far as "seeing the stunning beauty in this" goes, I thoroughly enjoy studying various models and seeing the similarities between the symbolism involved and the phenomenological experiences they represent. This has been a huge part of my practice in the last five or six years in particular, and continues to be of immense interest to me, but has also confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt that none of these systems can be said to exist objectively in the way you suggest.

Two words: Dependent. Origination.
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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago at 9/27/12 9:26 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/27/12 9:25 AM

RE: Where on the maps?

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One more thing which you should maybe consider: You're claiming to be an Arahat and yet you want to argue about subjective and objective existence?
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Blue , modified 9 Years ago at 10/2/12 9:33 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/2/12 9:32 PM

RE: Where on the maps?

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argue about subjective and objective existence?


Reading this line caused a baseline shift, so thank you.

The post-anagami and post-arahant development stages are two stages that I have to agree are very grey.
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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago at 10/4/12 5:18 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/4/12 5:18 PM

RE: Where on the maps?

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Excellent, good to hear! I know how easy it is to get caught up in the maps so I'm really happy our conversation helped in some way, it's always worth checking what's happening for any subtle tensions or urges to defend an idea; it's always a little bit of "me" trying to present itself as something different from the rest of awareness.
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Nikolai , modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 7:58 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 6:57 PM

RE: Where on the maps?

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Blue .:
I'll be more clear:
1) There is only one final enlightenment regardless of technique.


Do you consider yourself 'there'? If so, it would be interesting to compare phenomenoligcal expericnes to see any differecnes or similarities though we tried this before. Perhaps it wont appear so 'final', or maybe it will. Depends on one's concept of 'final', no?
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Yadid dee, modified 9 Years ago at 9/25/12 3:57 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/25/12 3:55 AM

RE: Where on the maps?

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Blue:

1) There is only one final enlightenment regardless of technique.


I think the Suttas beg to differ:
AccessToInsight:
The ubhatobhagavimutta, "one liberated in both ways," and the paññavimutta "one liberated by wisdom," thus form the terms of a twofold typology of arahats distinguished on the basis of their accomplishment in jhana. The ubhatobhagavimutta arahant experiences in his own person the "peaceful deliverances" of the immaterial sphere, the paññavimutta arahant lacks this full experience of the immaterial jhanas. Each of these two types, according to the commentaries, again becomes fivefold — the ubhatobhagavimutta by way of those who possess the ascending four immaterial jhanas and the attainment of cessation, the paññavimutta by way of those who reach arahatship after emerging from one of the four fine-material jhanas and the dry-insight meditator whose insight lacks the support of mundane jhana.


AccessToInsight:
The highest respect goes to those monks who possess not only liberation in both ways but the six abhiññas or "super-knowledges": the exercise of psychic powers, the divine ear, the ability to read the minds of others, the recollection of past lives, knowledge of the death and rebirth of beings, and knowledge of final liberation. The Buddha declares that a monk endowed with the six abhiññas, is worthy of gifts and hospitality, worthy of offerings and reverential salutations, a supreme field of merit for the world (A.iii,280-81). In the period after the Buddha's demise, what qualified a monk to give guidance to others was endowment with ten qualities: moral virtue, learning, contentment, mastery over the four jhanas, the five mundane abhiññas and attainment of the cankerless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom (M.iii,11-12). Perhaps it was because he was extolled by the Buddha for his facility in the meditative attainments and the abhiññas that the venerable Mahakassapa assumed the presidency of the first great Buddhist council held in Rajagaha after the Buddha's passing away.

The graduation in the veneration given to arahats on the basis of their mundane spiritual achievements implies something about the value system of early Buddhism that is not often recognized. It suggests that while final liberation may be the ultimate and most important value, it is not the sole value even in the spiritual domain. Alongside it, as embellishments rather than alternatives, stand mastery over the range of the mind and mastery over the sphere of the knowable. The first is accomplished by the attainment of the eight mundane jhanas, the second by the attainment of the abhiññas. Together, final liberation adorned with this twofold mastery is esteemed as the highest and most desirable way of actualizing the ultimate goal.
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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 6:50 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 6:50 AM

RE: Where on the maps?

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ps. the map is objective and universal

The maps are far from being objective or universal, they're conceptual models of subjective experience based on topographic similarities and, although admittedly accurate in my own experience, are not universal for all practitioners.
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Eric Bause, modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 8:17 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 8:17 PM

RE: Where on the maps?

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Tommy M:

The maps are far from being objective or universal, they're conceptual models of subjective experience based on topographic similarities and, although admittedly accurate in my own experience, are not universal for all practitioners.


Now that says a lot in one awesome sentence! Outstanding!

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