Opening of the 'Wisdom Eye' (question for Daniel Ingram)

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Nikolai , modified 9 Years ago at 10/14/12 12:55 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/13/12 9:49 PM

Opening of the 'Wisdom Eye' (question for Daniel Ingram)

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Hi Daniel,

I have just been asked about the opening of the 'wisdom eye' or the 'dhamma eye' and came across this quote in searching for references by Tarin a couple of years ago.

if i remember correctly (and here i am not certain that i do), daniel ingram has looked to those long-ago first experiences of what he at the time called 'wisdom eye' (owing to an unusual discourse given by the abbot of the temple at which ingram was retreating the night prior to his first experience) as pce's ... which, incidentally, may explain either or both ingram's very quickly acquired facility with inducing pce's (or "pce's") combined with the fact that, a full year since beginning the practice of actualism, he is not yet actually free. Tarin.


I was recently told that it was the opening of the 'third eye' by a someone claiming '4th path' as talked of by yourself. I wanted to get clarification on this interpretation thus I'm trying to dredge up any past references. Could you perhaps talk a little on the details of this 'opening' as it would appear from the Tarin's description you changed your mind on its interpretation? Since your post-4th shifts, has your opinion shifted on what you called 'the wisdom eye'? If Tarin did not misquote you, then it would seem strange for the the PCE to have cycling through insight stages still occuring. This might be a good avenue to explore and expand for the new edition of MCTB.

Finishing up my Revised Four Path Model, arahats have finally untangled the knot of perception, dissolved the sense of the center point actually being the center point, no longer fundamentally make a separate Self out of the patterns of sensations as they used to, even though those same patterns of sensations continue. This is a different understanding from those of Third Path in some subtle way, and makes this path about something that is beyond the paths. This is also poetically called the opening of the Wisdom Eye. What is interesting is that I could write about this stage quite well when I was an anagami, but that is a whole different world from knowing it like arahats know it.

The Wisdom Eye may seem to blink initially. It may go through cycles of flashing open just after a Fruition and then slowly fading over a few hours (at least on retreat) as each round of physical sensations, then mental sensations, then complex emotional formations, then lastly fundamental formations such as inquiry itself move through and become integrated into this new, correct and direct perception of reality as it is. Review cycles may occur many times during each flash, but when the eye is open they seem rather irrelevant in comparison to keeping the level of clarity and acceptance high enough to keep the eye open. When the eye fades and the knot of perception seems to retie itself, the familiar insight cycles may seem like pure drudgery, with the focus drifting back to getting lost in the cycles and then gradually shifting again to getting clear enough to get the eye to open again. The themes that occupy center stage go through a cycle that is very much like a progress cycle.

Finally, the Wisdom Eye cycles and insight cycles all converge, and the thing stays open from then on, which is to say that at that point it all seems the same whether or not the eye is open, which it actually was. That being seen, nothing can erode or disturb the centerlessness of perspective, and life goes on. That there are arahats who have opened the Wisdom Eye but had it fade and those who have opened it and had it stay open is rarely mentioned but worth knowing.

For the arahat who has kept the thing open, there is nothing more to be gained on the ultimate front from insight practices, as “done is what is to be done”. That said, insight practices can still be of great benefit to them for a whole host of reasons, there is a ton they can learn just like everyone else about everything else there is to learn. They can grow, develop, change, work and participate in this strange human drama just like everyone else. Practicing being mindful and the rest still helps. They also cycle through the stages of insight, as with everyone above stream entry, so doing insight practices can move those cycles along.
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Nikolai , modified 9 Years ago at 10/13/12 10:22 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/13/12 10:16 PM

RE: Opening of the 'Wisdom Eye' (question for Daniel Ingram&

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Is what you are calling in this old thread 'the simplest thing' the same as the 'wisdom eye', and if so is this not in line with how your experience of a PCE plays out?

The Simplest Thing is what it has been called here recently. The Simplest Thing is one way of saying those other things. I like the old line, “In the seeing, just the seen. In the hearing, just the heard,” etc. I think it makes its point very clearly and concisely. It doesn’t get any more simple that that, and that was what I realized on that retreat.


In the same linked thread you say

I remember the first time I chanced on to No Dog, and it happened to be just a few seconds after the Fruition that got me arahatship. When the mind flipped into that way of perceiving things, it was for me that that time everything I was looking for. As an anagami, I had become so sick of cycles and cycles and cycles that the transcendence of No Dog was absolutely amazing. Cycles occurred, and the only thing of relevance was staying in No Dog. I associated it with the term Wisdom Eye, and my whole goal at that point was keeping in that state. The only problem was it didn’t last...


And

I do think that No Dog is a very important attainment, just like I like the Formless Realms, The Pure Land Jhanas and Nirodha Samapatti, and No Dog is even one better, but I think that one must finally come to a place where even that is seen as just one more variation or motif on the basic theme that phenomena manifest in various ways and realization must be found in a way that is not bound up in any specifics, and that includes No Dog."


So the 'simplest thing' (also compared to the Bahiya sutta description of arahat, seen in the seen etc) is the 'wisdom eye' open?

Also is 'just the seen in the seen' the ongoing experience of '4th path' with the 'wisdom eye' open as you have defined it?
And if so, does the ongoing experience of 'just the seen, in the seen' still involve the compounding and fabrication of moods and emotions? I ask this as my experiential version of what I call 'just the seen in the seen' etc. does not provide the mental space so to speak for any fabricating to occur. If the mind has the jhanic factors as the sole object of consciousness, and suddenly there is the decision to switch perception to 'just the seen in the seen' etc. then all jhanic factors (objects of consciousness) cease to be 'objects' of consciousness and the jhana will cease, and all there is is seen in the seen, heard in the heard etc. So this is my version of 'seen in the seen'. It may differ to other 'takes' so i wish to be clear what 'seen in the seen' is for your definition of 'the simplest thing'.

I would say my journey since MCTB 4th path has been a journey of getting closer and closer to permanent 'seen in the seen' as I have sort of described above. Another way to talk of it is when in a jhana, there will be some 'mental space' so to speak where a factor or factors of that jhana have the spot light (this is a poetic way of describing it). When the mind cease to attend to those mental objects (the factors that come together to fashion or give shape to the corresponding jhana), and ceases to attend to any object of the field of experience, all that is left is the 'back of the eyelids', sounds heard in the heard, etc.

Nick
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Nikolai , modified 9 Years ago at 10/13/12 10:55 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/13/12 10:55 PM

RE: Opening of the 'Wisdom Eye' (question for Daniel Ingram&

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
And just to be clear, the following quote by Tarin in this thread points to 'no dog' being the PCE? Was this a misquote or have opinions changed since?

regarding your question about nomenclature, it is uncertain. it is possible that 'mastering the core teachings of the buddha' omits mention of this mode of experience completely, but based on what i've gleaned from recent conversations with daniel, what he refers to the wisdom eye (or sometimes calls 'no-dog' - but this is confusing, as kenneth folk uses that term to mean something else entirely) may be a pce. however, whether or not they are actually one and the same will be easier to determine when the mode of experience he refers to becomes permanent for him. Tarin


What do you mean by 'no dog' thus being different from kenneth's version? Is it the opening of the 'wisdom eye' and if so what relationship of any does it have with the simplest thing (just seen in the seen etc.)?
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Bailey , modified 9 Years ago at 10/14/12 1:33 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/14/12 1:33 PM

RE: Opening of the 'Wisdom Eye' (question for Daniel Ingram&

Posts: 267 Join Date: 7/14/11 Recent Posts
No dog = Opened third eye

The ego's center is in the solar plexus when it is associated with the body.

The ego's center is in the third eye when it is associated with the bare awareness that proceeds thought/I
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Jeff Grove, modified 9 Years ago at 10/14/12 4:50 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/14/12 4:50 PM

RE: Opening of the 'Wisdom Eye' (question for Daniel Ingram&

Posts: 310 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Hi Nik,

Cant remember where I have come across this but the wisdom eye is associated with the realisation of shunyata

cheers

Jeff
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Simon T, modified 9 Years ago at 10/22/12 1:25 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/22/12 1:25 PM

RE: Opening of the 'Wisdom Eye' (question for Daniel Ingram&

Posts: 383 Join Date: 9/13/11 Recent Posts
Bump.
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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago at 10/22/12 4:05 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/22/12 4:05 PM

RE: Opening of the 'Wisdom Eye' (question for Daniel Ingram&

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
Blue:
No dog = Opened third eye

The ego's center is in the solar plexus when it is associated with the body.

The ego's center is in the third eye when it is associated with the bare awareness that proceeds thought/I

Where did you learn those correspondences?

I've never heard of any associations like that anywhere, and I'm confused by your use of the word "ego" here. If you're using ego in the sense of a self or an "I", I literally have no idea what you're talking about; how an ego can have a center also makes no sense. I understand you may be using these words in a different way to how I'm interpreting them, which is why I'm asking.

Also, I don't get why you would equate the opening of the third eye with the "No Dog".

I'm not trying to be arsey or anything, I'd genuinely like to know as I've never really understood what the Wisdom Eye 'is' and, based on this thread and Daniel's description of the "No Dog", my understanding of the "No Dog" seems inaccurate.

I came across an article by Tulku Lobsang where he equates the Wisdom Eye with "unchangeable bliss", and suggests that it's an attainment which, based on my experience with the MCTB model and various others, seems considerably more advanced than what those claiming Arahatship on here describe as their experiential baseline. He says that mastery of tsa lung and tummo is required to attain this, which seems more in line with what Omega Point describes in his breakdown of the basics of the Six Yogas of Naropa, so I find it difficult to equate that attainment with anything discussed on here...other than perhaps in the descriptions I've heard from certain advanced practitioners during conversations off-site and elsewhere, particularly those who are post-'4th Path' but continue to describe major perceptual shifts based on their ongoing practice.

It'll be good to hear Daniel's input on this when he gets the chance, although I suspect that a lot of the issues in understanding are cross-traditional things and subtle technical points.
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Bailey , modified 9 Years ago at 11/3/12 7:34 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 11/3/12 7:34 PM

RE: Opening of the 'Wisdom Eye' (question for Daniel Ingram&

Posts: 267 Join Date: 7/14/11 Recent Posts
Hey Tommy, very sorry to take so long to reply

"Where did you learn those correspondences? "

I learned from them first hand. I have an exact visual of one of the experiences I had, showing me that the I can be in the solar plexus or it can be in the third eye.

The "I" can go to other places as well.. it can go to the heart chakra, it can go to the pelvis chakra... but the solar plexus is home base, and the eye is where it goes when you are associated with that bare awareness. Daniel talks about the wisdom eye opening and then closing. This is another thing which propelled this belief. I got to see in-real-time the "I" being in the eye but then wanting to go back down to the solar plexus to be able to "taste" sense pleasures. Google any solar plexus description and you will see that it is the chakra dealing with likes and dislikes

"The solar plexus chakra is also the seat of the ego identity…who your ego/body-mind thinks you are."
http://www.warriormindcoach.com/blog/2012/07/24/the-solar-plexus-chakra-survival-of-the-ego/


"Also, I don't get why you would equate the opening of the third eye with the "No Dog""

I don't know pretty much anything about dzogzen but from the brief amount I read you guys talking about it I heard "no dog" is being the awareness, or being the observer all the time.

I have had a couple major third eye experiences along the way. I had a GIANT third eye fruition that seemed as strong as an attainment during the "post-anagami phase", I had my eye open early in the post-arahantship phase and then close,

and finally I had the eye open again (actually while I was half-asleep, a nimitta occured) and this time there seemed a completeness.

Here is the most fascinating thing and the strongest evidence for the validity of my experience...... this final eye-opening event happened almost immediately after a large sila improvement, as if it were waiting for this to happen to occur. Meaning, I gave up something (it had to do with girls)... not sure what... but after I gave this thing up, I believe I was then "pure enough" for the eye to stay open and for ego not to want to go down to "taste" things in the solar plexus any longer.
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Bailey , modified 9 Years ago at 11/3/12 7:48 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 11/3/12 7:48 PM

RE: Opening of the 'Wisdom Eye' (question for Daniel Ingram&

Posts: 267 Join Date: 7/14/11 Recent Posts
There is also some disconcerting information. At one point I PMed Ingram about opening the third eye because I had the experience and I wanted to know about his. He said something about "opening the wisdom" eye as being a symbolic thing and not a literal thing. I was very disappointed to hear this. If there weren't a couple extremely strong indicators of my experience I would be very open to the idea of my experience being a placebo one (me wanting closure and thinking that the eye opening is the end from reading daniel's book).

However, Daniel's answer also confuses me because directly in his book he talks about the eye opening for some arahants and opening and closing ect, which was exactly my experience... and would make it a literal thing

So I am just confused emoticon Either way I don't care. I know Nikolai PMed Daniel something about this as well, maybe he has gotten his answer by now.
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Florian, modified 9 Years ago at 11/4/12 5:24 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 11/4/12 5:23 AM

RE: Opening of the 'Wisdom Eye' (question for Daniel Ingram)

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
The question about what the Wisdom Eye means also came up over on a Awake Network thread recently.

Here's an interesting text about the "five eyes", linked in the above discussion. It's more in the "symbolic" corner of the ball-park, though: not about hardcore meditation experience on the cusion, more about background stuff. Still, it's a useful map.

BAUS - Five Eyes

On the other hand, the "energy" sensations of the third eye don't, in my experience, directly correspond to that map. The "five eyes" map is more like the big models of enlightenment, such as the four-path model.

For me, the energy sensations / chakras / third eye stuff tends to occur more in the context of the individual insight cycles powered by some kind of practice.

Cheers,
Florian
A Dietrich Ringle, modified 7 Years ago at 11/9/14 9:26 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 11/9/14 9:26 PM

RE: Opening of the 'Wisdom Eye' (question for Daniel Ingram)

Posts: 882 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
Hi Daniel,

What are the reasons the wisdom eye blinks?

I am finding myself obsessed with sex, but sometimes wonder if physical union would be helpful in integrating psychotic stuff with the mundane,. Or maybe this is just wishful thinking.
A Dietrich Ringle, modified 7 Years ago at 11/9/14 9:46 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 11/9/14 9:33 PM

RE: Opening of the 'Wisdom Eye' (question for Daniel Ingram)

Posts: 882 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
More specifically, I am thinking about the long term effect of being on moderate doses of anti psychotic and anti depressant drugs versus a healthy married sex life. The latter in my mind, along with a steady job, are associated with the conditions necessary for getting off said drugs..as are an absence of behaviors such as fast pacing, et all
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CJMacie, modified 7 Years ago at 11/11/14 4:44 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 11/11/14 4:43 AM

RE: Opening of the 'Wisdom Eye' (question for Daniel Ingram)

Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
'Wisdom eye' or 'dhamma eye' -- initially brought to mind a distinction which turns out this is not.

That other distinction is 'dhamma eye' vs 'divine eye'. The latter is close to a kind of ESP that many have experienced. Kornfield, in The Wise Heart, cites a woman who "knew" the moment a relative was killed in Desert Storm. I've had similar. Below an explanation along traditional lines, with a bit of mythology and dogma mixed in.

Wisdom / dhamma eye is supposedly quite different, shared among many traditions, so definitions are all over the map. Than-Geof associates it with sotapatti (SE)... Will leave it to the arhats to figure out.

(From: Lives of the Disciples - Anuruddha Master of the Divine Eye, by Hellmuth Hecker, Translated from the German by Nyanaponika Thera)

"The divine eye (dibba-cakkhu) is the ability to see beyond the range of the physical eye, extending in Anuruddha’s case to a thousand fold world system, which may perhaps be identified with a galaxy in modern astronomy. This faculty can be obtained by one who has reached the fourth meditative absorption jhana and takes this meditation as the basis for further development as described in The Path of Purification (Visuddhimagga).[2]
The divine eye is of a mundane (lokiya) character. It can be obtained by an unliberated worldling (puthujjana) as well as by those on the four stages of emancipation. Anuruddha attained it before he became an Arahant. "

Some 'seers' or 'healers' claim this kind of ability; some probably genuine.


"The Buddha himself used this faculty during his daily routine, when, in the early morning, he would survey the world for beings who could be helped by the Dhamma. Through his divine eye he also saw when one of his disciples experienced difficulties in his progress on the path. Seeing this, he often went to that disciple to give him advice and encouragement.
As one of the three higher knowledges (tevijja) the divine eye has the name and the function of “the knowledge of the passing away and re-appearing” of beings (cutupapatañana)."

BUT, that last sentence does seem to overlap with descriptions of the Dhamma eye?
boubs fatty, modified 7 Years ago at 11/11/14 8:04 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 11/11/14 8:04 PM

RE: Opening of the 'Wisdom Eye' (question for Daniel Ingram)

Posts: 6 Join Date: 11/11/14 Recent Posts
More specifically, I am thinking about the long term effect of being on moderate doses of anti psychotic and anti depressant drugs versus a healthy married sex life. The latter in my mind, along with a steady job, are associated with the conditions necessary for getting off said drugs..as are an absence of behaviors such as fast pacing, et all


You're always better off without mind-altering drugs my friend...ALWAYS. I know it's not popular to give absolutes in this day and age but it's true. If you're going through a bad patch it will be worse for all sorts of reasons. Dont give up. Medication for physical abnormalities is okay though

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