If the 4th jhana corresponds to the 11th nana, is it possible to bypass the dukkha nanas by practicing samatha up to the 4th jhana, then "vipassanizing" it, arriving in EQ?

If this is not possible, why is this?

What got me thinking about this was a passage from this article, where Nikolai Halay writes:

"a yogi could technically bypass the "rougher" dukkha nanas via developing direct access to the first four "samatha" jhanas and practice discernment in them. Either way, if a yogi gets to the same strata of mind that is the 11th nana/4th jhana, a path moment is on the agenda."

The reason I ask is because my samatha practice really took off a few weeks ago - I can now reliably enter all 8 jhanas.

However, any attempts I've made at dissolving any coarse blocks of sensation from within these jhanas (even when concentration is especially strong and there's very little discernible mental movement) have proven disappointing, often with no real increased ability to perceive more subtle sensations at all (I should add that I've only ever tried this for a few seconds at most). So I'm unsure whether to continue with samatha as I've been doing, down that long, dark tunnel towards Ajahn Brahm's definition of jhana (actually I'm getting some faint nimitta now and a gradual loss of hearing, so that's promising), or to take up vipassana again.

Another consideration is that I'm currently doing a very tough computer science degree, so if I really am below the A&P (as was the conclusion reached here), I'd definitely like to stay that way. I'm finding that hard to believe though, given that any time I've stopped for a few moments and entered (very light) jhana in daily life, it always seems to be 3rd or 4th, and my mood always seems to be correspondingly anxious/irritable or calm/equanimous, plus some recent, more intense experiences that seem to roughly match up with descriptions of the A&P and DN symptoms when my concentration has been stronger.

Any advice on where I'm at and what I should do would be great.

Edit: slight changes to "The reason I ask...", made "However, any..." a new paragraph

Thanks for asking this question B.B. - I am experiencing exactly the same thing at the moment and was considering asking the same thing. I routinely move through the Shamatha Jhanas to 4 and have probably been in 5th but haven't tried much to go beyond 4 thought. Apparently 4th Jhana and 11th Nana (on the maps) are the same strata of mind so to the same question - if you can reach and abide in 4th Jhana firstly how related is that to 11 nana and secondly can you progress from within that level? I have tried Vipassana in 4th and not really sure what I am doing either. So hopefully a good answer from someone here will be forthcoming.

Thanks
Rod

Consider Tarin's advice on how to cultivate the 4th jhana:



If accessable, fabricate the 4th jhana, and then note, pay attention towards the 'clouds' i.e. all the movements, creations, sparks, urges, shifts, formations of mind. It is how I got to 1st path as talked of around here.



In hindsight, i ignored the 'clouds' and solidified the 'sky' while in the 11th nana thus discovering instant access to 4th jhana. From there i would will the mind at each sit on that course up to the 4th jhana and then switch to paying close attention to the fabrications, formations, objects, subject, all the movments of the entire field of experience, thus practicing in the vipassana jhana that is the 11th nana.

The dukkha nanas are 'knowledges'. Thy do not have to be set up as a period of personal crap and suffering. Fabricate the path over that stuff, see the dukkha nanas as 'knowledges' as opposed to set periods of misery, what 'knowledge' do they impart? Sanatha on up to the 4th jhana, switch to paying close attention to the 'clouds' i.e. formations of mind and body and let things do themselves. Note the 'clouds' if you will. You fabricate your path.


Nick

There is much experimenting you could do to use the jhana access you have to lead to 'progress' and permanent perceptual and suffering level baseline shifts. You could use such access to see what each jhana is empty of in sequential order such as explained in the culasunnata sutta. You could do a bit of juxtaposing, experimenting with how the jhanas are viewed and experienced. In the last link at the end of the article is a list of suttas that might trigger curiosity and experimentation utilising the access one has expressed, seeing how the jhanas can be utilised to bring on positive chnages in one's life. An example of bypassing the 'darkness' of a 'dark night', would maybe be this sutta.

Experiment.

Nick

Thanks Nick for your advice here - really helpful - I will try this and see what happens and thanks BB for starting the thread.

Regards
Rod

Just to be clear - you didn't bypass the DN nanas altogether, did you? That is, before 1st path, you did go through them and experience them until you got to 11 nana the vipassana way (that is, Mind & Body, Cause & Effect, 3Cs, A&P, Dark Night, then finally Equanimity)? It sounds like what you quoted yourself saying happened only after you had gotten to high equanimity already anyway, without having had access to all 4 jhanas.


Also just to be clear, in your experience, were the dukkha nanas (I'm asking about pre-1st path in particular) a period of personal crap and suffering? I remember you saying you practiced for 8 years before getting 1st path (correct me if I'm wrong) - how much of that was going through the dukkha nanas and how much of that was periods of misery?

FWIW, I've seen people claim that yoga, tai chi, qi gong and similar can make the DN pretty much a non-entity.

You might also wanna have a look here: http://www.dhammasukha.org
Bhante Vimalaramsi supposedly says that if you practice according to his instructions, there will be no DN.

Some Taoist lineages have much more intense A&P and DN, as they celebrate energetic phenomena. They tend to bypass thoughts by focusing 100% in the body plus long and sometimes heavy bodywork.

Other Taoist lineages flatten both A&P and DN, in a long signpost-less journey towards Equanimity. In other words, things happen but are not investigated.

I have briefly tried Bhante V's method, and the one (big) difference I see is that after after releasing tension you ought to "smile", an active technique to install a positive feedback. Plus, they put quite an emphasis on Metta.

Just to be clear, yes I did experience them and no I did not bypass a 'dark night' like experience over the years pre-1st. I also had no samatha jhana access unlike others have expressed having on this thread. I think they could use such access to their advantage, which would have been an ideal way to walk the path if I was to walk it again, that is if I had known what I was getting myself into previously. I did not. A 10 day goenka course just plonked me in such territory. I had no samatha jhana access until 10 years later a day before 1st path occured.



Hard to say what was what these days, as it's all 'in hindsight' whether life stuff corresponded with out-of-nowhere unpleasantness or not. I think assigning such meaning to every unpleasant experience I had to be dubious. I do think 'beliefs' and 'views' condition how the mind reacts or does not react, what is fabricated, how one relates to experience, how experience plays out and what one does and does not do in one's practice. Assigning a projected idea of 'dark' (from the notion of a 'dark night') to anything being called a 'dukkha nana' can be problematic, as it could condition a specific way of relating and reacting to phenomena which simply results in an overlay of mental unsatisfactoriness.

Questioning, seeing the cessation of and perhaps changing the view of what the 'dukkha nanas' are could well bypass the blind fabrication of 'dark-ness' that was previously assigned to such stages by the taking onboard of the belief that such stages are and always will be experiences of misery set in stone. Stabilizing and making the mind more pliant and malleable, such as when one cultivates samatha jhana, could also aid one in bypassing much of the five hindrance 'darkness' of a 'dark night', by subduing such blind subjective reactions temporarily in order to reach prime baseline shifting territory (11th nana/4th jhana).

'An experience/stage that will always be 'dark' and miserable for me' VERSUS 'an experience/stage to gain knowledge/wisdom from in order to progress in the eventual dismantling and cessation of such a miserable 'me'? I think as a belief/view, each is going to condition differing results for the yogi. In later stages, shifting such a view eventually led to an absence of a 'dark night' in my own experience, thus I give such advice.

To be clear, my advice is for anyone with the 4th samatha jhana access wondering how to utilise such access.

2 cents subject to change,
Nick

Edited a few times as per usual.

with strong enough concentration, and I mean REALLY strong, the sort of concentration that has visualized objects bright and clear and well-developed, as in MCTB's candle flame descriptions, with no distractions arising, and using non-physical objects such as candle flame image sequence described there or others, and barely any to no bodily sensations arising, as one is strongly in that world, it is possible, if one attends to the moving, fluxing nature of those objects, and with proper understanding of how to navigate the strange aspects of attention in the 3rd jhana, it is possibly to bypass DN effects almost entirely, and thus, doing it in realms of light, image, and geometry, to have no significant problems

for me, getting to that level of concentration takes me about 10 days of constant work on retreat

others might be able to get there faster

some don't seem to be able to get there at all

thus, this is not an easy solution, but it serves as proof of concept that it can at least be done somehow, and thus can likely be done by other methods also

if you try this method, realize that the standard jhanic traps await

d

I have found that investigating inside jhana is not easy and should be done gently at least at first, otherwise you will most likely be thrown out of the jhana into 1st nana. It is something I have only been able to approach relatively recently.

It should be said though that even if you involuntarily exit the jhana and start cycling through the nanas, there will be a considerable benefit from a sustained period of concentration and tranquillity beforehand, over dry insight practice.

Good luck.