'knowing the breath'

MangaDesuYo, modified 10 Years ago at 9/23/13 8:46 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/23/13 5:40 AM

'knowing the breath'

Posts: 69 Join Date: 9/23/13 Recent Posts
Ajahm Brahm technique of following the breath is by 'knowing the breath' knowing that you inhale, exhale, and pause.
This differs from placing attention on a certain spot at the nostrils and feeling the breath/air sensations there.

Did anyone reach Jhana with Ajahm Brahm's way?

Is there any difference between the two? or produce a different kind of result if one goes with Brahm's or following the breath with a sustained attention on a certain spot?
Christian Calamus, modified 10 Years ago at 9/25/13 12:44 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/25/13 12:44 PM

RE: 'knowing the breath'

Posts: 88 Join Date: 10/23/10 Recent Posts
I know nothing about Ajahn Brahm, but I believe the question of how exactly one should focus on the breath is indeed debated, at least among some practitioners. There seem to be differences between the instructions in the suttas and those in the commentaries. Different teachers will tell you different things, and I think it's best to try stuff out and see what works for you.

In my own experience, I had little success with methods where focus is tight, say on the nostrils or the abdomen, because these methods produce tightness in the meditative experience and can even lead to headaches sometimes for me. In the last few months I have experimented with a broad focus method (knowing the breath, not focusing tightly), which for me produces much more pleasant, stable, deep, relaxed Jhana rather easily.

The approach I've been using is based on teachings by Bhante Vimalaramsi, who btw also discusses the issue of knowing the breath vs focusing etc. You can find his book in PDF on this site.
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tom moylan, modified 10 Years ago at 9/26/13 8:06 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/26/13 8:06 AM

RE: 'knowing the breath'

Posts: 896 Join Date: 3/7/11 Recent Posts
howdy Julian,
yes, i have had success with "getting to know" the breath. i started following the breath according to instructions on the aypsite.org which is essentially feeling the physio/psycho breath from way down low in your body to way on up to the crown. this is also how i do mindfullness of breathing in and out (anapanasati). i have also used the feel of the touch of the breath on the nostrils.

the nostril thingy (not following the breath but watching it like a sentinal guard at the gate) was very helpful in deepening concentration and discernment as to what is body and what is mind. it is a good way to the jhanas in my opinion.

the following the breath and its feelings are the way i start out each vipassana session. i basically follow the "body" section of the satipatana sutta until a certain point where i move my focus onto more mental phenomena. when the mental phenomena is too much, too confusing etc. to track, i fall back to following the breath. it is a very natural process for me and it is a nice mix of concentration and vipassana.

tom
MangaDesuYo, modified 10 Years ago at 9/28/13 8:44 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/28/13 8:44 AM

RE: 'knowing the breath'

Posts: 69 Join Date: 9/23/13 Recent Posts
Thanks a lot everyone!

I got more then I asked! emoticon
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Dan Cooney, modified 10 Years ago at 9/28/13 3:31 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/28/13 3:31 PM

RE: 'knowing the breath'

Posts: 60 Join Date: 10/22/12 Recent Posts
I advocate rote anapanasati and just going at it hardcore and spend 3 months trying to execute perfect breaths, spend an hour a night on it. Forget the nose and wherever air touches, you want to attenuate those signals and just breathe using the gut motions produced by the diaphragm, psoas, perineum, guided along with the front of the abdomen, which can be pretty much dropped once the mechanisms become efficient enough so as to be able to be completely internalized. When the flow of air drops beneath the threshold of sensation (and you can sustain it for the duration of the session) then it feels like it becomes a superfluid, with no friction at all, and also with no feeling of breath you no longer have all that neural activity burning up oxygen and qi. Check out the ymaa embryonic breathing material.
M N, modified 10 Years ago at 9/29/13 6:33 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/29/13 6:33 AM

RE: 'knowing the breath'

Posts: 210 Join Date: 3/3/12 Recent Posts
Check out the ymaa embryonic breathing material


Can you give a link to worth reading online resources?

I ask because if you say it just like that it's unlikely that I'm going to spend time in looking for information, considering that Idon't have the competence to distinguish what is foundamental and whatis not, what is good stuff and what isn't; however, if someone experienced in that sort of things gives me an internet page that I can read and go there being sure that what I'm going to read is good stuff, it's likely that I'm going to read that, if I havesome interest in that sort of things.

Bye
M N, modified 10 Years ago at 9/29/13 6:38 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/29/13 6:38 AM

RE: 'knowing the breath'

Posts: 210 Join Date: 3/3/12 Recent Posts
Other question: if you do that for three months get thesuper-smooth flow that you describe, and then doing something else entirely, how much will the benefits gained throught that kind of practice remain there with time? Will they remain unchanged, will they need some kind of manteinance, will they drop in a couple of days... how does that work?
Change A, modified 10 Years ago at 9/29/13 10:07 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/29/13 10:07 AM

RE: 'knowing the breath'

Posts: 791 Join Date: 5/24/10 Recent Posts
'You' may try breathing this way. After the pause, don't breathe 'yourself' but let the breath start by itself. Breath will be known for its entirety in a way 'you' may have never known it before.
MangaDesuYo, modified 10 Years ago at 9/29/13 11:22 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/29/13 11:08 AM

RE: 'knowing the breath'

Posts: 69 Join Date: 9/23/13 Recent Posts
That's a very good tip Change!

Just today I noticed this!

I see good results coming when the pause resumes by itself into an inhale, it gives a certain push for piti and sukha to kick in!
also it feels as if the abdomen (lower dan tien) emits heat when the abdomen contracts.
Change A, modified 10 Years ago at 9/29/13 11:39 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/29/13 11:37 AM

RE: 'knowing the breath'

Posts: 791 Join Date: 5/24/10 Recent Posts
Good to know that you have found it helpful.

Does your breath count per minute drop considerably rather quickly when you try this way? (as compared to when you meditate any other way and the breath becomes subtle)

If everything is working perfectly, then it should not feel as if heat is being emitted/concentrating at one point. If it does, then it means that muscles are contracted around that area (or there is too much pressure somewhere on the spine because muscles are not supporting it properly) and blood is not flowing properly. If this happens when you are trying this method of breathing while seated, try it standing and be attentive of the muscles around the hip region (notice the spine as well). Then try it again seated and notice any change in the muscles around the hip region (also notice the spine if there seems to be more pressure at certain vertebrae) which may be contributing to the heat being emitted/concentrating around one region.
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Dan Cooney, modified 10 Years ago at 10/3/13 9:18 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/3/13 9:09 PM

RE: 'knowing the breath'

Posts: 60 Join Date: 10/22/12 Recent Posts
Mario Nistri:
Check out the ymaa embryonic breathing material


Can you give a link to worth reading online resources?

I ask because if you say it just like that it's unlikely that I'm going to spend time in looking for information, considering that Idon't have the competence to distinguish what is foundamental and whatis not, what is good stuff and what isn't; however, if someone experienced in that sort of things gives me an internet page that I can read and go there being sure that what I'm going to read is good stuff, it's likely that I'm going to read that, if I havesome interest in that sort of things.

Other question: if you do that for three months get thesuper-smooth flow that you describe, and then doing something else entirely, how much will the benefits gained throught that kind of practice remain there with time? Will they remain unchanged, will they need some kind of manteinance, will they drop in a couple of days... how does that work?


Sure, any of the posts I've gone on for a length around here emoticon

But I'll sum it up briefly right here...

Since the breath is the most coarse and ongoing thing, that is a good logical start for attenuating the various bodily signals. That's a big component of Anapanasati, this attenuating...just "turning down the volume," and thus all of the energy that was going into the "volume level" is now unharnessed, unmanifest...and eventually, the awareness can make use of this additional energy (and it also contributes towards longer breaths.) AKA "settling the heartmind."

Once you learn how to move the diaphragm properly, there's no need to expand the belly (front of abdomen) very far, and eventually its action is mostly dropped from sessions - but here's the answer to your follow up: once you've put in the work and obtained the result, its like riding a bike - you aren't pedaling all the time, there is a time to coast and a time to pedal. Doing the rote work on it reprograms the medulla with this more efficient breathing pattern and it carries forth into all of life, waking, sleeping, etc....so, all that is needed is just a little bit in a session paying attention to the breath mechanics to "give the prayer wheel a little more momentum" and the program you have mindfully written into your subconscious processes is given a furtherance every day, that's really all it takes - let it languish long enough and yeah, it'll disappear, like anything else...just like workouts. I will usually just spend the first few minutes of a session, 5, 10 perhaps if I'm feeling like it, before just letting things spontaneously do their thing, and it starts becoming more Sati than Anapana when things get good. Its a good prep for a session also - putting the entirety of the focus of your awareness into the feeling of all the breath mechanics...if your awareness is focused on those breath mechanics, it cant be thinking something - so if your mind is busy, even, it is a good thing to cultivate because it is a break in the thought-form-energy, and when that is ingrained into habit, that is what leads to the ongoing clear states, relatively free of thought or fetter.

So you put in the work until you get very good at it, then meditation really just becomes more "sitting, smiling pleasantly for a few"...and two hours goes by. Of course that doesnt manifest right away, and one cant spend every moment of a session in such a state, but do what you can - the timing of the breath is huge because the additional energetics fuels being able to make breath durations longer and longer. So if one works hard, one obtains the result more quickly.

The fundamental mechanisms:
-Diaphragm
-Psoas
-Hui Yin is the energetic culmination of the perineum

And the front of the abdomen is a sort of 'martial modifier' - when first starting out, use it however you need to make the internal mechanics go properly. As the internal mechanics smooth out, the motion of the front of the abdomen becomes less and less. The qihai point is the energetic culmination point of the front of the abdomen.

-The nose, sinuses, air passageways - everywhere air touches - learn to not use them to facilitate the movement of air. Place the entire onus of breath on the internal mechanism.

The diaphragm is pulled downward from its lower attachment point at the top of the lumbar spine - the motion is assisted "down to the dantien" by the movement of the psoas muscle and that intent continues for the duration of the inhale. Huiyin timed appropriately depending on natural or reverse breath; relax is not prolapse and lift is not clench.

Time all of the energetic culminations to be simultaneous, harmonious. It leads to higher energy potentials. What's the exact timing? Do the gongfu! Think of a dyno readout for a car and where max power vs rpm is, its not where the engine blows up, its usually a bit before the redline starts...so equate "redline" with the energetic culmination of the structure. Smooth diaphragm motion helps settle the heart, since the aorta, vena cava, espphagus & vagus pass through it.

Relax on exhale and begin anew.

Once the energetics about the lower dantien start to become established by this harmonious motion, the reflection of sunlight in the chamber of water will shine at the niwan. Look with the awareness, the mind's internal eye once the energy potential of the lower dantien starts becoming apparent, and then once the niwan begins to resonate with the reflected energy, one may apply intent to the natural waxing and waning of the energy center. Doing both upper and lower at once, on, off...off, on, whichever...is "harmonizing the taiji pole" and works at opening the central energetic channel of the body. But the more poignant bit there is that with the niwan becoming active, the awareness can be effectively brought there.

Bringing the focus into the niwan once these things have been established basically allows you to start "arresting" energypotential that would otherwise manifest as thought-stream-energy and funnel it straight to the awareness.

So it begins by shutting up the 12 cranial nerves via these various gongfus, picking out the energy centers, utilizing their energy, and taming the energy of the body in the process - leaving energy potentials that would otherwise extend out through the senses and leap into spontaneous thoughtforms - unmanifested in their raw true sense. Imho, the habit energy of the ongoing enlightenment experience...but I havent gotten quite that far yet haha emoticon But even after the attainment of buddahood, one still does anapanasati...or so I think I recall reading the buddha having said, hah!
MangaDesuYo, modified 10 Years ago at 10/6/13 2:18 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 10/6/13 2:18 PM

RE: 'knowing the breath'

Posts: 69 Join Date: 9/23/13 Recent Posts
Good to know that you have found it helpful.

Does your breath count per minute drop considerably rather quickly when you try this way? (as compared to when you meditate any other way and the breath becomes subtle)

If everything is working perfectly, then it should not feel as if heat is being emitted/concentrating at one point. If it does, then it means that muscles are contracted around that area (or there is too much pressure somewhere on the spine because muscles are not supporting it properly) and blood is not flowing properly. If this happens when you are trying this method of breathing while seated, try it standing and be attentive of the muscles around the hip region (notice the spine as well). Then try it again seated and notice any change in the muscles around the hip region (also notice the spine if there seems to be more pressure at certain vertebrae) which may be contributing to the heat being emitted/concentrating around one region.


Yes, lately the inbreath and outbreaths was quite rapid for me, as a result I didn't manage to get into Jhana.. the trick was to manipulate the breath so it will go slower on the exhale and increasing concentration on the exhale, longer exhales, this brings the 1st Jhana up very fast!

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