Hi Daniel
Daniel M. Ingram:
Given the great abundance of open dialogue you mention occurring in monasteries about the specifics of things like the states and stages of the path, it is truly remarkable that they haven't bothered to write so much of it down.
Actually they do. At many monasteries now all talks are recorded and transcribed. Then at a later time printed or made into CD-ROMS, a lot of this material you have to go to the monasteries or Buddhist centers to get as big chain bookshops are not very interested in having free books on the shelves.
Daniel M. Ingram:
You will notice the odd contradiction: you clearly value the open dialogue about these things that you say takes place in Asia, and yet you simultaneously can't stand a Westerner doing it. Any explanation for this? I remember a person critiquing the last Buddhist Geeks conference for the total lack of Asian speakers, a fact that they believed largely invalidated the gathering, as they had nobody who could speak with authority on the subjects in question, so he asserted. Am I just projecting or is there something in this association between these two events? What do you think of the Vimuttimagga's author signing it as they did? Are you so certain that you are right in all of this on all points?
There isn't a contradiction. Perhaps I didn't word that part of my post very clearly. The two situations are different. Dhamma talks on the subject are usually spoken objectively, being very careful when switching between subjective and objective. The open discussion on peoples attainments I refer to is usually discussion of the attainments of
others in the community, it is very rare first hand someone will openly say 'I have attained X' to an audience, and more often than not if they do discuss it first hand they just talk about the actual experience without giving a label. The reason obviously is that it is something a student should discuss with the teacher and it is for the teacher to determine. Especially within communities adhering strictly to the Vinaya, the student would be cautious of breaking the rule regarding falsely claiming an attainment, and so even if they did believe it, they would have more than likely not say through fear of it not being certain. If however after quite some time they are confident in their attainment or have had their teacher confirm such a thing, or other situations it does get said. A very well known case would be Mae Chae Khaow and Pra Ajahn Maha Bowa, whereby the Ajahn discussed her attainment and given that he was her teacher was effectively stating he was an Arahat in the process and I am sure in conversations in private it happens frequently. But all that is very different from sticking it on the front of a book and publishing it for the world to see.
We can't really know Vimuttimagga's authors intentions as we don't know the background or compare it because the concept of books was I imagine very different, nor do we know if it was even meant for the purposes it is now. If I remember correctly the Visuddhimagga also has a similar attainment sign but its thought that the book was actually meant as an assignment to senior monastics to show that he understood the teachings.
On the Buddhist geeks thing...
I can possibly understand the position of that person, but it isn't about race. It is the fact that in the west the buddhist community is a much smaller entity. There is not the same immense depth to the communities because unlike them, western nations are not predominately Buddhist. In the west they don't teach dhamma in schools, people don't generally study dhamma from their early teens through to university level, before going off into the forest for 30 years as many monastics do. The support is not there or the sheer numbers of people. Teachers in the west are also mostly lay which is a difficult path to tread and has a lot of issues and hindrances. With research you could fill a few sheets of paper with the western dhamma teachers. To do the same in the Theravadan countries would probably be a 20 year research program and take up volumes. A good analogy would be soccer, Brazil wins the soccer world cup time after time not because they are born better at playing soccer but because they have millions and millions of children who grow up playing it all day long.
You do touch on something which I believe happens however whereby people sometimes seem to think that because a teacher speaks and behaves in a way that is similar to something from a movie or the old master in the Kungfu tv series that he must be enlightened, and the same words from a man with a a head full of hair, wearing a suit, speaking in English with an american accent would be just another load of words. Reputation also plays a big factor in the reaction. Ajahn Brahm isn't Asian but if he, or one of the Venerable Pau Auk Sawadaw's long time western students put Arahant on a book they might react differently
All that aside it is other peoples reaction, for whatever reason to seeing you claim to be Arahant and the inflammatory stuff, that I think is the problem. Nikolai (if i understood correctly) said this helped him shake away ideas which held back his practice. My point I was trying to make is that although it might help a minority, the majority will reject it or be put off because of this reaction. I think perhaps my post came across as me saying 'I hate your book, your wrong' or something, which wasn't my intention. My own experience with the book was that I didn't really care that much about the Arahant part as someone had already explained to me to me that your belief in what an Arahant was was different. My intention with my post was just to relate my experiences meeting people who have read it ( In case you don't know, your book is for sale in some very obscure places in the world ) and my opinion on how it could benefit more people and pull in a particular type of 'potential buddhist' (along with Vince horns stuff), but who are turned off by the majority of western teachers style and miss out.
In the end just keep practising and benefiting.
