Hey Everyone

Other then practicing Anapanasati, I want to give kasina meditation a try as well with a candle flame or a colored circle just to the point the pleasure feelings arise and from there abandoning the object.

Yesterday I attempted to practice on a colored circle in front of me.. but then realized that there are 2 ways of starting at the circle which I am not quite sure about which is correct enough.. let me try to explain it:

1. Let's say I have a red circle infront of me, do I look at the center of the object, intensity on the color redness, like I am trying to see the tiny particles of the texture? another example is, trying to look with intensity at a very small dot on the circle, like trying my best to focus in order to see a tiny spot somewhere.
because after a few seconds when doing that the object becomes foggy and it's like I have to blink or move my physical eyes a bit to get a clear picture of the red circle again without it getting all distorted..

2. I just place my eyes on the red circle without focusing on any specific part of the red circle, you could say the eyes are out of focus.. your eyes look towards the circle and you see it, but you don't look at it directly and straight, but you see that it's there just like now when I type this post I see my lamp on the table, more of a general view, 'knowing of the red circle'
when doing that the circle comes a little bit out of place, it gets a glowing hue around it, it becomes very very sharp.. it get's 3D like, as long as my eyes tend to be in "out of focus" state, however, the eyes aren't exactly placed on the object, but still the mind "sees" it and knows that it's there and seeing the shiny color changes of the object.. however once you move your eyes or blink, the object returns to the normal view.. so you have to again look at the object in such a way and waiting for the eyes to make that shift again.. so you could say something happens to the physical eyes that makes up this kind of illusion.. if that makes any sense..

This is in regard without the after image visual..

Concentration instructions

Thanks Mario!

I have read that post already.. but I feel that it doesn't answer my question exactly because you can observe the flame as he suggests in both 2 "staring" mechanism I more or less tried to describe..

Ok...let's try again...

If you focus on tiny details, particels, how attention movesfrom one detail to another, or if youjust stay with whatever ever-changin visual effects, then you are focusing on impermanence, and this will create insight into the 3C

On theother hand, if you focus in a way that the circle seems to be basically solid, always the same, then insight won't arise and concentration will get strong very quickly.

I'm pretty sure that there isno way you can possibly stare at an object and not seeing any impermanence-related visual effects after awhile, wich is to say, there is no obvious way to separate the two from a practical point of view.

However, your intention will make things different somehow.

If you want to get insight from it, you can play with various ways you can tune your attention; so,for example, you can see how every moment you percieve only one detail and the next moment you percieve another one, or how attention bouces from the visual field to your body and how when one id there theother isn't,or you can play with the fact that one moment attention is on the main object and the moemnt after has bounced to see the periphery, or just relaxing into any kindof ever-changing visual effect that eventually will arise, or how there seems to be some kind of tension around the eyes that you can let go of, or how in general trying to concentrate seems to create some kind of effort and tensing in your body, or just tuning into the fact that there is no reason for you to focus because, since you have eyes and you stated before the intention to see it, then seeing will happen regardless, or whatever else you can come up with to get insight in one of the 3C.

If you want to get your concentration strong, you can make an adjustment and repeat "red...red..." in your mind to slow down mental proliferation; also, adding some mantra-component will help with concentration in general.
If you want to get jhanas, you just wait until plaesent sensations arise, and then just enjoy them, sinking into them.
If your concentration gets strong but plaesent sensations don't arise, you can begin to repeat in your mind "joy...joy..." and this will probably do the trick, because when the mind is concentrated it's much more responsive and obedient.
Another trick to get first jhana with a visual object is to focus your eyes in a way that is like if when you focus on a narrow object; more details here

Is this more helpful?

Ok, I just realized that I haven't answered the question:

For jhana purposes, I suggest focusing the eye in a way that the details are on focus (as if there was something written on it that you want to be ableto read), but doing that without trying to do anything else about it (i.e. trying intentionally to see impermanence) and maybe relaxing the effort it it becomes apparent, because after awhile it can get annoying.

Thanks a lot for writing all this info out Mario!



In that case after a few seconds of staring at the flame towards the center or whatever.. with or without observing the colors appearing or disappearing, or the shape changing, the eyes tend to go into cross eyed OR out of focus state, so this means I am not exactly looking with enough concentration and mindfulness on the candle fire also because it gets all foggy, and not sharp because of the switch in eye mode.. I can assume that it's alright to blink or to move the eyes a little bit (on the flame) just to correct my vision/sight perception?

Not sure of what's going on with your eyes.... do you happen to have made progress in insight territory? However, a general good idea when something like this happens is not trying to force it, because if that happens spontaneously that means that your body wants to go there, and trying to do something else can easily end up in a pointless fight. However, if it doesn't feel like it you can adjust eye focus... see for yourself.

I suggested that way of focusing the eyes because it makes plaesent sensations arise very fast for me; however, if you don't feel it or your eyes are drawn toward a different kind of position, that's fine as well, and the basic procedure is always the same: use the visual object to make the mind stable, and when something that feels plaesent happens just allow yourself to get drawn into it.
BTW, crossed eyes makes plaesent sensations arise even faster for me, usually around the eyes or the temples... does it happen to you?


Not totally sure of what you mean by it, but the point is not to see the object in a way that is sharp, but just getting the mind to be stable on the object, if the object is foggy your mind can still be stable on it.

If you are looking for bliss, kasinas may nor may not easily produce that initially: some will just get the visuals and not necessarily the bodily feelings, as the attention is on the colors and not the body, so if you attention is strong, you may not even really notice the body at all, just FYI.

As to how to start: start with a smaller disk if you are having the problem of where to look. Illuminate it brightly against a wide, dark (such as black) background. I still prefer candles (or oil lamps, which is actually what I generally use, as the glass cover of a good oil lamp keeps the flame steady, and if you are doing long sessions you can go through a lot of candles and I think it is easier to just buy more oil and refill the lamp.

Really focus on it with your eyes for a minute or two, then close them, see the after image, and convert that to the kasina object: it should become more and more "purified", meaning clearer, cleaner, and brighter. Stay with that as long as it is there to stay with regardless of what it does. When it is finally gone (assuming it goes away: at some point you will get good and it will get larger), open your eyes, and repeat. How long this cycle might take will vary depending on you and your practice. It might take a few minutes, it might take 10 minutes, or, if you really get the thing to glow and stabilize, you might be able to stay in one cycle of the practice for a long time, like the whole sit.

Don't pay attention to every little part, just focus on the color itself as it is and make it brighter if you can by gently inclining to expand it, realizing that there is a slight delay from intention to expand and the expansion, and that expanding it can take time to learn how to do, so just repeat again and again and again. Concentration practices really benefit from high dose over short periods of time, so many hours/day in the beginning really helps.

When doing that sort of practice, my preference is for the following:

Don't use a clock. Find a very comfortable sitting position where your back is erect and your knees and back are ok: use whatever position or bench or cushion or chair you need to be able to go for long periods. Go until you feel somewhat fried. Get up and do walking practice with really solid concentration on your visuals as you walk for a few minutes just until you can go back to sitting. Go back to sitting and repeat the staring, closing eyes, finding the afterimage, expanding and following the afterimage, etc.

Also, stick with one color initially. When you have done a lot of this practice in a short span of time (like, say, 16 hours/day for a week, or perhaps more or less, depending on you), you may begin to see the color everywhere, even when not doing the practice. For instance, if you were using red, after a while it might be as if you are wearing rose-colored glasses: this is a good sign of progress. When walking between sits really notice that redness. When laying down to sleep, notice the red color on the back of your eyelids. Every waking moment, see the redness somehow, somewhere, if you possibly can. That sort of commitment to the object will produce much more profound results.

Concentration like that, where the object pervades everything and is very strong, tends to really fade very rapidly once you stop. I remember on one retreat where I was able to do remarkable things once my concentration got strong, and within a day of stopping about 90% of the power had vanished.

Anyway, enjoy,

Daniel

So, I got a question after that post by the little message thing at the bottom about looking at the afterimage with ones physical eyes, to which I responded basically that initially it really seems we are looking at the internal afterimage and then the more purified colors with our physical eyes, and lots of facial straining and eye and face muscle constriction and the like is common, but as practice goes on, we forget about all of that, realizing that looking at the internal image has nothing to do with the eye muscles and the face and focusing in that physical way, as the focusing is mental and so the face and eyes are forgotten and the image and the mental way of focusing on that comes to the fore.

Thanks for the reply aniel and Mario!

I will practice and experiment with all the advice and suggestions I got from here, and see what works for me and what not.



I didn't yet try this with kasina practice, I know that in anapana due to my focus inside the nostrils it makes my eyes cross, I didn't know that this was happening until piti and sukha arise which for some reason makes me feel that my eyes are crossed while following the breath.

Actually I can make my eyes cross without looking even at the tip of the nose, or to stare at an object close by for that to happen, I just got a feel to it to make my eyes cross whenever I want. this eye crossing game is quite interesting so I will experiment with that as well. but I guess when you cross your eyes on a circle for example, there will be 2 circles near eachother you focus your eyes in such a way that they look at the middle part like on that site you gave me, 2nd Jhana - mastercard logo..

For whatever reason I've felt strongly called to work with the earth kasina. I have a really nice flat piece of Utah red sandstone, that I have inscribed a circle on.



Currently, it's just a circle scratched into the stone. I like the naturalistic look of it, but if it would really help speed up the concentration, I could paint the outside part of the stone black. If anybody has suggestions about whether the contrasting background is essential please let me know.

My other question is the following. Since it's an earth kasina rather than a color kasina, I'm focusing on the visual perception of earth. So I assume that I should not focus on the red-brown color but instead focus on seeing and enhancing the quality of earthiness in my visual field. I've just been looking at it and noting "earth" and trying to evoke some of the qualities I associate with the earth element like solidity, hardness, groundedness, stability, etc., but rather than feeling those in my body, I'm trying to see them in the kasina. Does that sound right? Any other thoughts on working with elemental kasinas?

Avi