A typical traditional definition of concentration is stillness and one-pointedness. In my experience there are also many benefits to non-stillness and non-one-pointedness.

Shinzen's definition of concentration is: "the ability to stay focused on what is relevant". His do-nothing practice is very beautifully articulated to practice the exact opposite, that is, the ability NOT to focus. After practicing focusing, the non-voluntary component of 'talk space' (Shinzen's terminology) reduced while the voluntary component of that same space increased. After practicing non-focusing, the exact opposite happened. (these are experiences I have had about a year ago)

HI Tomer,

Welcome.



Okay: to stay focused on what is relevant is doing: "staying focused on what is relevant" (e.g., "do-nothing practice" as you write generates confusion; something is being done and advocated worth doing: focusing on what is relevant)

Some people, instead of defining concentration as "focus/not focus", define mental usage on a range:
[indent]- narrowing the mental capacity (e.g., anapanasati in focusing on the breath at the nose tip), and/or
- broadening the mental capacity (e.g., the monk Mingyur Rinpoche teaching open awareness or another teaching anapansati not at the nose tip, but rather focusing on the waves of breath in the body).[/indent]

One mental capacity is diffuse, moving to each sensate perception and/or each mental arising-passing. One mental capacity is localized to a single place, mind moving consistently to a single object. Both activities --- to remain focused on what is relevant --- require the mind train in returning to a job.

They are essentially both concentration practices, but training with different lens. An analogy might be a camera: some people like to shoot images with a wide lens and a vista and other people may be drawn to shoot with a zoom lens on tiny objects. It depends what suits each person.

In reading what you wrote (excerpted above):
1 - After focusing, the non-voluntary "talk space" reduced;
2 - the voluntary component if the "talk space" increased
Does this mean you chose to "talk" in your mind when you use your mind on a narrow object field (e.g., tip of the nose)?

In reading what you wrote (excerpted above):
1 - After practicing non-focusing ("the ability NOT to focus"), the exact opposite happened:
2 - So, the non-voluntary "talk space" increased, and
3 - the voluntary "talk space" decreased.
Does this mean now you deal with more often the involuntary condition of increased mental talk when you are not focused? That rings true, to me. Many people chose to train in anchor their minds on narrow or broad fields (aka: meditation, music, sports, study) in order to reduce buckshot involuntary thinking.

Which condition is less stressful/increases your calm and well-being: doing the practice which increases your voluntary self-talk or doing the practice which increases your involuntary self-talk?

hi katy,
thanks for you response

Does this mean you chose to "talk" in your mind when you use your mind on a narrow object field (e.g., tip of the nose)?

not during but after the formal session.

Does this mean now you deal with more often the involuntary condition of increased mental talk when you are not focused?

In highschool, long before i started meditating, i suffered from too much internal chatter~obsessive thinking~judgement of self and other. I developed this practice of squeezing my head from the inside like a sponge to drain all the thought out. It was crude, but effective.

Which condition is less stressful/increases your calm and well-being: doing the practice which increases your voluntary self-talk or doing the practice which increases your involuntary self-talk?

excellent question. these experiences which i shared happened over a year ago and since then my practice has gone in many different directions and produced many different results. with regard to the two practices we are talking about, I try to feel it as a dance: sometimes i am leading, sometimes I am being led. have you ever heard about/seen/tried the dance called contact improvisation?

Funny you should ask: yes. Frances Wessells was my teacher. Our class was from all generations. It made for some of the best semesters of college.

Well, it seems like from reading your other threads you have some useful teachers/teachings, foremost your own sincere practice/effort and effort to evaluate skillfully.