Hello!

This is my first post in this forum. Here is some background information about me and my practice:

Im a 29 year old male living in Norway.
I have practised anapansati/body scanning aka goenka/Mahasi Noting in various degrees for the last two years, but I have not achieved any of the "states" described in MCTB. Neither vipassana jhanas or samatha jhanas. I having been doing a little bit of that and a little bit of that without going wholehearted into one practice.
So I have thought that it might be a good idea of setting up a "pratice-program". To have some kind of structure on my practice seems like a good thing. And therefore I have some questions:

1. In the Mahasi retreats I attended I have been told to use the movement of breath in stomach as the main meditation object.
I suppose it also ok to use the breath in nostrils as the main meditation object. Is there some pros/cons between these to objects? Some times i feel its easier to concentrate while using the breath in the nostrils.

2. I have read that its preferable to "master" the first jhana before practicing vipassana.
Is it then preferable to practice for example "clean" anapanasati until one masters the first jhana and then start With for example mahasi noting?
Or will you develop enough concentration while practicing mahasi noting?

Im planning a longer retreat next summer and i dont want to attend a mahasiretreat if had been "smarter" to attend a jhanaretreat. I you know what i mean...

It would be very Nice if someone would share theire experiences/knowledge around these questions.

Hi Oystein,

Welcome to the DhO :]



Yes! I agree: if a person wants to see a result, then it's great to turn ALL of one's attention sincerely and willingly to a practice within some defined time period of practice. At the end of the period of practice, it can be considered, "Should I keep this up?"



If you would go to the Wikipedia entry on "Anapanasati Sutta" and the subheading of "Interpretations" you will find you are in great company. There are different ways to interpret the Pali, apparently, and so people have started traditions of both a) breathing with attention at the upper lip-nostril area and b) breathing with attention body-wide.

No matter what choice you make, eventually decide on one; each method will have sticky areas (challenges) and these challenges are pretty trivial. The dedicated practitioner can through practice and study experience the temporary mental condition of tranquillized mind with single-point focus (as called: unification of mind; jhana) and this is useful, in my bit of experience.



So if you practice meditational release such that the mind is stable and single-pointedness (aka: unification of mind) arises, then insight will also happen. I think noting is used as tool which gets around the struggle to learn jhana, just the way in the West we have cognitive behavioural therapy to treat exaggerated affective states. So if you like noting, then you could do that; personally, I think noting is first a "dry" insight practice (one that comes with some aspect of analytical reasoning afterwards), but that it can move itself into a concentration practice: that the noting becomes a kasina and the mind can release its egoic arisings and that jhanic results can arise when noting becomes like this.



I think it comes down to deciding what you will practice, how long you will practice and study that method and how sincerely you manage to practice.



Best wishes!
: )k

The samatha vs. vipassana question is a biggie, one of main factors that distinguishes different approaches, and every teacher will have his say on the matter.

My ten cents is a "middle way" approach, so I woudn't do one to the exclusion of another.

The mahasi technique (as I understand it) was designed as a "one size fits all" approach that a monk could teach to a lay person in a very short period of time, and if followed with disicipline and effort would be enough to get you all the way to ...somewhere nice. The pragmatic dharma community has more of a pluraistic, less dogmatic, more individualistically tailored approach, where different approaches can be employed at those times where you need them. Having a teacher to help in these decisions of what and when...helps. In the absence of a teacher though, then mahasi style is pretty straightforward, hard to mess up, and should get you results. And you don't want to switch around too much and not stick with any one thing long enough to get any benefits. I guess you have to trust your instincts.

My experience (and I think is what other people say) is that it easier to get in touch with the "pleasure of the breath" - and hence jhana-ville - with breath concentration on a nostril point compared with the belly.

Kind of hard to do a one size fits all answer.

Generally speaking, people who end up making faster progress often have done a bit of concentration practice first, but not necessarily to the point of mastery or maybe even of basic experience of jhanas, they just did some concentration practice.

The Mahasi style (my personal bias) seems to lead to fast progress and eventually, in many if not most cases, some experience of jhanas will arrive from the dynamic concentration of that style.

I think one of the best ideas is to reserve the first 10-20% of a sit to concentration practice and then note your ass off for the remainder. Personally I would favor the Mahasi retreat, but even more so I would favor year-round daily practice if you're not already doing it. I would also not lean on the breath too much in the noting. If that is truly what is predominate in your awareness at that moment, note the breath, but there's a lot of other stuff going on. Use the breath as more of a fall back if necessary.

Eric, why is it that you favor year-round daily practice? Is this because it yields more hours of meditation and therefore better results than a retreat here and there?

And if one were to adapt this daily practice, what would you recommend in terms of length of meditation and whatnot?
I know it's difficult to recommend anything without first knowing my background and all that and I'd be more than willing to share if thats what it takes.

Your post has helped my practice. Thank you

And thank you Oystein for posting the thread.