triple think:
What I was trying to say was, can you see, understand and describe how things actually work? Could you, in your present state describe what is happening internally in some way similar to the way that the Buddha presented Dependent Origination as a process of binding and conversely a process of unbinding.
Yes, I can describe what is going on with this body and in the immediate surroundings by thinking, reflecting, appraising, evaluating, and then communicating to you about my ongoing experience after-the-fact. Is there something specific you are wondering about? Most of what is going on here can be uncovered by using wikipedia to look up the various sense organs, or read/think about how intelligence operates. What you won't find there, but you can ask about or read about on the AFTrust website, is about infinitude and its various qualities, or other things that are relatively hard to be aware of outside of the pce / af, for instance.
There are no events "happening internally," and so there is nothing to describe there (there is no "inside"), as there is nothing going on / no where for it to go on; there is oblivion only.
triple think:
No, not really. In my case I could say that about some of the conditions involved and not about others and even then there would be special cases with significant variations.
Would you be able to say this in the context of a simple experiment devised by carpenters, like myself, involving your outstretched hand and a nail gun? In the moment before the nail went through your bones, during the occurrence and in the moments afterwords? It's just a thought experiment but what is the consistent meaning of perfect in each context? Why use the adjective perfect to describe the experience and in what sense is each moment experienced as the same?
Time, space, the senses, the intellect, the body's composition...are these seen to be constant / fundamentally the same? For instance...have you ever noticed that your body is never not "here" and "now" and as long as your body is aware, it is aware of that (as it is what it is being aware of)?
I found these on dictionary.com (see below), which as a public resource, seems "consistent." It is used by me quite often "describe the experience" as it is the most succinct way of alluding to many qualities / values / properties of my experience and it also accurately describes the magnificent quality of the experience itself (it "feels" perfect). Each moment is experienced as this perfection, because I am unable to fall out of this perfection. You see, I am this universe experiencing itself as an self-aware organism, and as I am this universe just as much as the things being sensed (a chair, for example), I am also perfect (meaning, I am also not outside of the perfection being experienced). This has always been the case, it is just that the identity / self kept me from being able to experience it as such.
"Perfect:"
Definitions:
-excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement
-entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings
-accurate, exact, or correct in every detail
-thorough; complete
-pure or unmixed
-unqualified; absolute
Synonyms: absolute, beyond compare, blameless, consummate, defectless, excellent, faultless, ideal, immaculate, impeccable, indefectible, matchless, paradisiac, paradisiacal, peerless, pure, splendid, spotless, stainless, sublime, unblemished, unequaled, unmarred, untainted, untarnished, utopian
triple think:
Would you have no fear in regards to the nail about the pierce your hand and no desire for it not to? Please don't misunderstand, I'm not interested in seeing you suffer, I would just like to understand what you are saying in a real context where fear and desire are not mere concepts but conditional psycho-physical processes with real meaning and purpose.
First, I have yet to encounter such a situation, so I cannot say with certainty. But hypothetically speaking, I have no need to fear whether a nail is going to pierce my hand via a nail-gun wielding human or not, as the event will either happen or it will not, regardless of whether the emotion of fear or the reactions caused by fear were also being experienced. As fear and desire are both feelings that are / represent an internal, redundant (useless) denial of the fact of any actual situation (in this case, a nail through my bones), I fail to see the "purpose." In such a case, the "conditioned ... processes" would not happen due to fear / desire, as I have done away with them. Why did I do so? Partly because they provide no "real meaning ... (or) purpose" as they are redundant-- they do not actually, directly change anything; if anything, the experience of such emotion would likely cloud sound judgment and lead to relatively insalubrious outcomes.
triple think:
Ok, well, glad that you have moved beyond the realm of mere concepts, I think we can all agree that this is a good thing. I have the impression from all the AF accounts that the actual specific given causes and actual specific given conditions involved in the present moment are not discernible in the PCE state. I have the impression that very little but the 'perfection' of 'now', in whatever form 'now' happens to take is discernible. So I suppose, if I understand this correctly, then it is not possible for those in the PCE to conduct any sort of analysis of anything beyond discerning that it is the present moment and that the present moment is 'perfect'.
As the human intellect is capable of thinking, or "discerning," I am wholly capable of figuring out anything that can be figured out. Though it may be worth noting that when one's delusions have come to an end, there is not a whole lot left that needs to be figured out (in this context, and in most others). Can you provide an example of an "actual specific given cause" or "actual specific given condition" that I am not able to discern?
By the way, there is much more implied by "perfection" than what you seem to be gleaning / reading about. Here is a relevant paragraph from Richard of the AFTrust.
Richard:
The fundament characteristic, or nature, of the universe is its infinitude – specifically having the properties of being spatially infinite and temporally eternal and materially perdurable – or, to put that another way, its absoluteness ... as such it is a veritable perpetuus mobilis (as in being self-existent/ non-dependent and/or self-reliant/ non-contingent and/or self-sufficient/ unconditional and/or self-generating/ unsupported).
Having no other/no opposite this infinitude and/or absoluteness has the property of being without compare/incomparable, as in peerless/matchless, and is thus perfect (complete-in-itself, consummate, ultimate).
And this is truly wonderful to behold.
Being perfect this infinitude and/or absoluteness has the qualities (qualia are intrinsic to properties) of being flawless/faultless, as in impeccable/immaculate, and is thus pure/ pristine.
And which is indubitably a marvellous state of affairs.
Inherent to such perfection, such purity, are the values (properties plus qualities equals values) of benignity – ‘of a thing: favourable, propitious, salutary’ (Oxford Dictionary) – and benevolence (as in being well-disposed, beneficent, bounteous, and so on) ... and which are values in the sense of ‘the quality of a thing considered in respect of its ability to serve a specified purpose or cause an effect’ (Oxford Dictionary).
And that, to say the least, is quite amazing.
triple think:
An awareness that it is always the present moment is fine, I completely agree. An awareness that the present could not be other than it is is fine, I completely agree again. I also hold these truths to be self evident. To limit my discernment to these parameters does not appeal to me regardless of the payoff.
Here you say that you do not wish to "limit (your) discernment to these parameters," and yet, you seem to imply (below, in your next reply) that you are concerned with how an actual freedom relates to the end of delusion (and from knowledge of past discussions with you, I was of the impression that you are attempting to end such delusion in yourself). Do you realize that to end delusion you must end the ability to be deluded altogether? (Which, from the standpoint of being deluded, seems to be an act of "limiting.") And further, that to "limit" oneself in such a way is not an actual limit, as the delusion never actually existed in the first place?
triple think:
I'm pleased that those of you lastingly in the PCE are pleased with it but for me it is not an end in itself. I see the end of fear and desire in much broader terms than the present moment.
If the end of suffering and delusion is not what you are searching for, may I ask: what are you searching for?
As the only moment that is actually ever existing is this "present moment," this statement of yours begs the question: how and why have the "terms" for "the end of (suffering)" been put off into some non-existent "future" to be forever waited upon (waiting only begets more waiting)? Could it be, that you are not searching for "the end of suffering and delusion?" I suppose I have asked this twice now, but I just wanted to illustrate clearly how these two paragraphs (this and the prior) are related.
triple think:
While fear and desire or the absence of the same might naturally involve the present moment, they aren't necessarily exclusive to it.
Actually, fear and desire cannot exist when one is directly experiencing "here" and "now." As such, they are absolutely exclusive to it; the actual universe (and humans experiencing themselves as the universe), never knows suffering.
triple think:
I think it might be helpful to narrow the focus of my question to something like the 'what is the functional nature of intent in the context of the PCE?' How does intent function in this state. Given that the present moment is perfect, regardless of its form, how do you form determinations to think, speak or act in a given manner? On what basis could you choose in the absence of preferences and if there are preferences how could aversion or attraction (fear and desire) be entirely absent?
In a PCE or an actual freedom, "I" have taken my leave and experience is just doing itself. As "I" am "my" intent and "my" intent is "me," there is no intent in either experience. If you are meaning to use the word "will" rather than "intent," that is a different matter. And so I answer that way just in case: will operates freely here. My "determin-ation" is related to preferences in the context of things that interest me, such as the health and well being of myself, my companion, other fellow human beings, various entertainments / sensual delights, and so forth. The "given manner" I conduct myself via is what I deem to be the most functional to achieving the best results in any situation (such as maximized happiness in a gathering of friends). Lastly, preferences are possible due to this body's actual predilection and past influence / decisions formed. For instance, I prefer (have a preference) to eat cooked meat rather than raw meat, for not only is it more delectable to eat but it is also healthier (at least, so far as what I have learned) and thus promotes a healthy life (which is great, because I like being alive and it's nice to comfortable on top of that). Perhaps this example helps: if you are in a no pressure situation (there is nothing to lose / gain here) and you were given the option to sleep on a bed of nails or a comfortable mattress, which would you choose?
triple think:
As it has been described so far, the PCE seems to similarly remove craving and aversion but there is no reference to delusion. Instead the assessment of the conditioned present is that it is perfect. This contrasts with the Buddha's assessment of the same conditions: ...
There is no delusion here, period. When the delusion ends, only facts remain, and facts are perfect in that they cannot be sensibly or intelligently resisted. There is nothing outside of a fact, and that is why actual freedom does not lie in the commonly thought "freedom to choose" but instead lies in the freedom of knowing / experiencing the facts (with facts only, there is no decision to be made (in that way), and thus, practically no uncertainty regarding most of life's matters). Everything is so simple here... And this is marvelous...excellent!
Regards,
Trent