Spoiler warning: don't read this thread if you have strong aversions to people talking about their psychological hang ups and how to be free of them. If the mere thought of this makes you want to vomit, just note where in your body you feel that vomitous sensation, watch it arise and pass! (PS. I don't hold onto my 'stuff' like a badge of honour, and I have no interest in wallowing around in it. I want a ticket out).

Tarin, carrying on from the other thread, what I would say to the person beating himself up is something along the lines of "You're ok....there's nothing in fact wrong with you... you're alright". I'm guessing you think I could try saying that to myself??

The other thing is, when a person is depressed, it's almost impossible to recall any good feelings. Or maybe you can recall the time and event, but not the feeling itself. Meds don't really help with this aspect either. So, the bit about when did I last feel ok is very hard to answer.

And regarding cognitive therapy and it's similarity to AF - I have one very trusted and up-to-date source on what constitutes proper cognitive therapy and it goes like this:

1. Notice a bad feeling arise
2. Find the event that you believe triggered it
3. Write down any thoughts relating to that event (self talk, images, words, sounds, names, scenes....anything, however vague or fleeting)
4. Fill out the raw material from number 3. (above) into a full sentence, a belief.
5. Ask - is there any rational support for this belief? Is it helpful? What evidence exists for the accuracy or falseness of this belief?
6. Substitute alternative, realistic statements about the triggering event.

The major block to this, according to my source, (and this is what I find personally), is that irrational self talk is so extremely swift that is goes unnoticed almost all the time.

I wonder whether watching one's thoughts closely is a good idea, ie. do insight meditation on mental phenomena. What do you think?

All comments welcome from anyone.

Hi CCC,

I'm no psychologist and claim not attainments so the following is based on what I've read, experienced, learned etc.



I think the key to using techniques like the one you describe, or anything that tries to disrupt existing habits, is mindfulness. Basically, being aware of the various processes going on inside one's mind and body (and interactions between the two) can allow you to catch the initial "bad feeling" as it happens or as it is forming. This then gives you the option to respond to the situation out of wisdom, not out of habit. Once a habit chain gets going it becomes harder to stop it but if you manage to catch it early or before you fall into the same old pattern, it is much easier.

I think any mindfulness practice would be helpful for this, for example, the basic breath meditation instructions you'll find on any insight meditation website should work quite well to increase one's mindfulness. After only a couple months of practice I would find myself stopping in the middle of a rambling thought train and reconnecting with the present moment. And while I've not read him personally, I believe you will find some helpful stuff from Jon Kabat-Zinn (he may focus more on stress reduction but the techniques should translate well enough).

Additionally, you might want to try and develop a regular metta practice. The Buddha speaks of inclining one's mind toward wholesome states: “Whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of their mind” (borrowed this one from James Baraz who speaks a lot of working to increase wholesome states). Neuroscience supports this kind of thinking as well, by the way, "Neurons that fire together, wire together" (see Rick Hanson for more about connections between neurology and dharma).

Hope this helps,
Eran.

Thanks Eran. I also thought mindfulness would be a good idea, I even went and bought a book called "The mindful Way Through Depression", which i thought was going to be the answer. One of the four co-authors is Kabat-Zinn, the guy you mention. Unfortunately what happens when I practice is that my sypmtoms always get worse: severe agitation, body aching, malaise, irritability, and later, anger and so on. They increase to the point of having to stop because it gets too much to bear. It then takes a lot of codeine (for pain) and an increased anti-depressant dose (for every other symptom) to get back to where I was. Sometimes I wonder if I "really went for it" and meditated for a prolonged period and just sat through severe pain, whether i would emerge the other side. But I have a feeling it could also be dangerous and that I might do something I regret.

I don't want to become a "yes but.." kind of poster. Hope it doesn't come across this way.

I'll certainly look into the metta practice. It's something I've not looked at before.

Thanks again.

Hi CCC,

I'd like to respond to your mention of cognitive therapy.
I myself have been struggling with social anxiety for a while, wich next to the fear has lots of nasty side effects. For a little while now I'm in therapy using cognitive behavioral therapy.
As you correctly say there's a major difficulty when starting this therapy: beating yourself up mentally has become so swift, it is extremely hard to notice the thoughts of self-critique. However, it is definately doable, if you give yourself some time and perseverance to learn the routine. I would really encourage you to give it a chance.

I started out by practicing only the first three steps. Notice a negative feeling, describing the situation that caused it objectively, and then trying to identify not just any thought about it, but the exact thought you had as a reaction to it.
This is quite hard and at first you have to reason backwards, like 'what did I probably think?'. But since you're so used to these patterns of negative thought you're actually quite good at imagining how you would put yourself down. There's a fair chance of coming up with your actual reaction at the time. Indeed this is seldom a whole sentence, but rather a single word, an image or an attitude that, to you, holds a whole book of negativity.

As you practice this on a daily basis, within some time you will start to recognize these reactions as they are happening. Then you can start doing the other steps of the program, and by challenging your thougths and beliefs about yourself, you will soon start to see the redicule and needless hurting of you're reactions, and stop believing in them.
You can start believing kinder and more positive things about yourself, because when the fog fades, it will dawn on you that indeed, there's actually nothing wrong you, and you are very worthy of loving yourself, no matter what.

So I'd say it's definately worth to give it a go, nothing much to loose anyway. For me is does seem to work.
If you do i'd advise you to get some counsellor to encourage you to get through with it and help you challenge your beliefs. I also agree that mindfullness, as well as metta practice, can be very helpful.

Well, my two cents on cognitive therapy, hope it's helpful to you.
Either way, good luck with conquering your crap.


Here's a short ebook for starting out with metta practice if you like. It's transcription of a three day metta retreat:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/scrn_metta.pdf

Cheers,
Noah

As this is a website mainly about insight practices, I'd like to add that I see this therapy completely as a part of my morality practice. It enables me to function properly in society and be kinder to myself and to others, and that's it.

When I started meditation my main motivation was to get rid of this psychological suffering, but that gave me the sense that I'm meditating to 'fix' myself, or fix my psychological stuff. Whenever i would have some event or task that i deemed difficult I did some extra meditation time in order to 'feel up to it', or to feel good or whatever.

But Daniel and other sources are quite clear about insight meditation and psychological crap, so I decided transfer that part of life completely to the sila pillar, and totally let go of it when on the cushion. I think that this has been a helpfull shift in perspective. Meditation is not gonna fix this, not at least until stream entry, as i understand it. So you might as well completely disconnect the two, and deal with it on a different level.

Keep in mind that I'm hardly qualified to advise you on meditation practice, but it's just my take on the relating the two.

Cheers,
Noah

I suffered from depression as a teen for a few years, even giving up school and sitting at home feeling despaired and helpless for no logical reason, until I stumbled upon a method to get rid of it. It happened when I was playing a game, I noticed that during the playing process depression didn't exist, but once it was over, it magically sprang back into life. Soon I started noticing the same about some (but not all) other activities and decided to fill up my life with this type of activities exclusively. Those are activities that either take a lot of mental effort, or take a lot of effort in general. They don't have to be tiring, just very involving. In a while I noticed that depression was seemingly a self-supporting mood, the more you feel depressed the more compulsory power it has, but the less you feel depressed the more its power wanes. Eventually it waned into nothing.

This method is harder than it sounds, because we're generally very lax and have no strong focus on anything. Just think of how your depression seems to be continuous, it's not but it seems so because most of your activities are lax and permit you to be distracted enough to feel depressed while you're doing them. Your mood has lots of gaps, but you ignore them instead of making them wider. So if you have a real problem, then you'll feel motivated enough to revamp your life with new activities and remove old ones that don't follow the same pattern. In normal state of mind it would be hard to do, if not impossible, it's too unnatural to change what we do.

That won't work well with insight meditation, concentrating on negative feelings gives them power, that's what you want to avoid. I think it can work only for mild cases or in case of a very advanced meditator who understands a lot and can actually see how illusory his own feelings are. For others it would be nothing but a forced intellectual realization, they would be trying to think what they think they should be thinking, instead of actually realizing it, so it would have no real effect. Besides, depression with its feelings of worthlessness and helplessness can greatly interfere with motivation, so while you're depressed you will probably be unable to put enough effort into meditation for it to have any tangible effect. You can't practice hard when you keep thinking that you're hopeless and keep wanting to give it up. Especially given that insight editation will give more power to these feelings, as you will be focusing on them.

Thanks Noah and Velvet.

I'm still recovering from my short meditation last night (insight/mindfulness) - it really wrecks me. Work today was very difficult. Everytime is the same... so I have to stop.

velvet, my condition is such that even extremely exciting and interesting distractions will only push the depression away for a minute or so. But I agree that paying attention to pleasurable activities is very important treatment. The bit about realising vs. intellectualising about the nature of negative emotions, I also agree with. I am starting to consider whether a dose of psilicybin might do the trick, but not being at all into drugs, I'd have no idea whom to ask or where to start. Anyone know?

Noah, I think the metta practice is possibly a good thing for me, and thanks for those links. My next effort will be along those lines.

That used to be my belief, too, and it turned out to be wrong. You need to pay more attention to the things that you do and you will notice that sometimes you forget your depression and your mood changes. The trick is that when you forget, you usually can't detect it, because if you forget about something then how can you detect its absence? So its absence doesn't register. By the way, I wasn't writing about pleasurable activities, they have to be involving, not pleasant.

Hi CCC,

Hope your feeling a bit better by now.
And i do hope you will find something that will work for you in your surge to escape depression. I allready gave you my take on what might work, but it's for you to find out of course. Maybe you don't feel like you're up to it, or just don't feel like starting some therapy, but hey, that's depression right?
Have you tried to start running? or some other endurance sports? Those make you produce serotonine, the chemical your brain has forgotten about. That might also be a cornerstone of a happier life.


On your recent post, I would strongly disencourage you to take psylocibin (you're talking about magic mushrooms, right?).
Any psychedelic, being psylocibin, lsd, salvia divinorum or what not, requires a healthy mind to experience a pleasant trip. They are definately not for the mentally unstable. That's because they alter the state and perception that is already there.When taking psychedelics, one is always advised to take care of set and setting. Setting being a safe, relaxed and familiar environment, set being your mindset, your mood, expectations etc. The latter is far from ideal when in a depression. Taking psychedelics could easily produce severe anxiety and paranoia (bad trip). From what you tell us what meditation does with you, i would seriously consider not taking any.
Marihuana also enhances feelings of depression btw.


I know it is so very tempting, but I don't think you should aim for the quick fix. Maybe you can try to accept that life for you right now kind of sucks. But don't let your mind trick you into thinking it always has to be this way. It really doesn't!
Aim for the gradual rise, it will be the one lasting.

Well again, good luck and hang on.
Noah


[edit]: typo's

Hi CCC,

Have a look at this video, this may help.

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/what-is-depression-how-to-solve-it/4294300119

with metta

Natasha.

velvet, what you say reminds me of when i used to paint. I'd have to observe the subject with every ounce of my attention and I'd forget myself for a minute. To me, absorption is meditation. I guess what I need to avoid is any sort of self-absorption (sensations, feelings, thoughts), and instead have an external focus.

noah I have been to many different therapists and they don't help. I did however have a run today, and in the past that has helped a bit - I just forgot about it, or got too tired. Running seems to offer something that bike riding and walking can't. Perhaps it's to do with hard cardio-vascular work.

Will look at that link now Natasha - thanks.