I'm currently meditating (developing mindfulness) 1-2 hours a day but have only been going for a month so I still have a lot to learn. I have been reading many books including MCTB which is extremely refreshing compared to most of them. I have a few questions:

As I understand it, first jhana is basically:

a) Develop mindfulness with an object (breath, navel, whatever)

b) Recognize absorption once established

c) Switch the mindfulness to a pleasant sensation and be aware of the pleasantness.

I am able to produce goosebumps at will, which starts at the back of my neck and sends waves of intensity down my body to the extremities. It feels great and I've always done it since I was a teenager. It also tends to happen naturally when I find something "epic", a video, music, an idea etc.

When focusing on step c) above, I find and focus on a good sensation, but then when it starts intensifying, the goosebumps/shiver happens. If I focus on the goosebumps sensation I can intensify it a lot. But I'm wondering, is this a useful thing or a hinderance? I'm not sure if the goosebumps/shivers are a distraction or something I should build, or perhaps part of the bliss some people experience in first jhana.

Thanks to anyone with any experience that can help.

Dear Ben,

Welcome to the Dharma Overground. Thank you for your post.

You would like to know if the goosebump sensation, which always feels great to you and which you can produce and intensify at will, is a useful thing or a hindrance, if it is a distraction or something you should build, if it part of the bliss of first jhana.

To consider this one has to consider, "What is the ultimate goal of meditation, no matter the style of training?" Some people will say, "Extinction" (nibbana), some people will say "Wisdom and compassion" (two paramitas-- perfected applications of mental attention), some will say "Siddhis" (the unusual things one can do with mind when it is trained in close attention (e.g., Marc Salem)

What are we doing with jhanas then if jhana mind states can contribute to such a range of experience?

One, the jhanas are training the mind to leave the gratification of unwholesome mental states (fear, anxiety, anger...) by training the mind in wholesome gratification, such as pure pleasantness created on our breath alone (not using others for our pleasure).

Two the jhanas are training the mind in a gratifying and friendly way, to release all gratification, to be ready for equanimity. To just sit.

Three the jhanas are training the mind to see a range of experience and how we react to it, how we eventually may "react" equanimously. This also trains us for engaging with the range of experience-&-reaction in daily life.

Jhanas are like shining a bicycle up, repairing it to a state where it can be used to get us places, to just sit on the seat and lean on the handle bars and watch, and ultimately to use the bicycle skillfully for ourselves -- our need to make movement and our eventual stillness -- and not to be afraid when the bike finally breaks down and is not repairable again, becomes part of rust, decay, scavenged parts.

So you know what is pleasantness, big pleasantness in your chills. I think that's useful. What happens when that pleasantness subsides and/or you no longer want to sustain it. What is your mind use then?


Thank your for your practice and sharing.

It sounds to me that you can stabilize your cognition on the goosebumps. As long as you can remain 'stable, consistent, frequent', on an 'object, field of sensations', with cognition of what the sensation is--you should develop the first jhana.

Breath or goosebumps, the object does not matter. What matters is your awareness of 'knowing, cognizing' what the sensation is that you are applying the mind onto.

Hi Katy/old dried leaf,

Before I read your replies I decided to try just to keep focus on the pleasant sensation of my hands and let everything else pass. I became absorbed (counted to 200 breaths), then my hands (palm of right in left, thumbs overlapping) felt as though they had melted into one, so I focused on that. I continued like that in what I would call the deepest absorption I have experienced for the next 30+ minutes. I knew nothing could shake me from my concentration.

I feel as though this was a big improvement over how I had concentrated before, and when I came out of it (reluctantly after the bell sounded) I was in a kind-of wonderous/my-eyes-are-open-now state for the next couple of hours. I feel as though this could have been first jhana, but I did expect that the sensations I was focusing on would have increased to a higher level. The sensations of my hands being "one" was nice, and was deeply calming, but as far as I have read if you focus correctly the level of sensation should increase?

The one thing about the goosebump sensation is that they come in waves with the breath. To bring them on I focus on a point at the base of my spine, close my eyes and look "up", take a deep breath through my nose and then the waves start with my breath. While I can improve the intensity of these waves with focus, its certainly not a constant sensation. Will this be okay to focus on?

In the meantime I think I should continue to investigate the hands, as I'd like to replicate and improve on the experience I had yesterday. Any thoughts much appreciated.

Thanks so much for your replies.

Ben

Are you talking about ASMR?

KFD Thread

Yes, it sounds like ASMR, except I learned as a teenager to bring it on at will. I've heard it called "skin orgasm", and it's quite pleasurable.

<big smile>

This is your practice :]

I know you know that, but I'm glad you had this experience before you read replies.

So as you play with this and read the suttas which define the jhanas (you could start with Anapanasati or just go to the wikipedia) you can start seeing more about what your mind does.

Today it is doing this thing you described. Some day you may say to yourself, "Oh, this is why the suttas speak of 'single-pointed' concentration and 'suffusive' concentration."

And over months, you may say, "My brain has changed."

Maybe you will have an old problem, an argument, an anxious moment, and you may ask, "How does jhana training help?"

Maybe you will give up. And then equanimity - also suffusive - may present, and it can be said, "Oh, here is*** complete equanimity! This is why the suttas mention equanimity."

It's a progressive laboratory training and, to read you here, it seems like you had a great day in the lab today. Nice : ) Congrats and continued work and best/kind wishes in your lab.


_______
***EDIT: Technically, it would be a thought like, "Oh, that WAS equanimous, whoa, there was no gradient, recognition without any valuation, not cold disinterest, but intimate, neutral contact in every place attention touched." something like that in hindsightand the experience of equanimity, 4th jhana, lack any kind of self, at least per my experience

I have now tried both (focus on a pleasant sensation/focus on goosebumps). When I did the goosebumps focus it was very intense, and at one point it started "exponentially increasing" and I unintentionally stopped it. I was very deep though, completely absorbed in it.

Questions: How intense is the "bliss" of deep first jhana supposed to be? I realise that it's not a quantitative science, but hopefully there is some consensus that can guide me.

Well, what are the benefits and wastes in continuing to practice this mental pleasure?
1) The mental pleasure is free of external object so the concentration in our mental pleasure -- just jhana, just pleasure in the breath, for example -- can help train a mind off of addictions. But regular good exercise, diet and group therapy/sharing/support can do that, too.

2) This practice of an innocent source of mental pleasure can help an anxious brain become calm and happy --- But regular good exercise, diet and group therapy/sharing/support can do that, too, and probably faster than learning to meditate.

3)So the actual use of the jhana of pleasure (which is second jhana) is to train the body in a friendly way to come to equanimity (fourth jhana).

The "waste" in continuing too long the practice of mental pleasure on the breath, in buddhist terms, would be that the practitioner wastes their chance to understand things as they are because they have become addicted to the sensations of the first three concentrated mental states (jhanas 1-3) and are not considering fourth jhana, equanimity, which involves just sitting but just sitting with well trained, alert attention and a trained, often at-ease body (often after much unease).

4)So you could keep studying the absorptive pleasure and I'd say, yes, study that if it is compelling to you (else it may nag you and 4th jhana will not arise when there is any desire present, in my limited experience). See what happens when you augment, move around the energy. Study closely what you do to recover the bliss when the feeling starts to subside, study what you feel and emote when the bliss starts to subside and you no longer want to sustain it, study how you feel after this meditation is completely exited, ask "Is this absorptive pleasure useful in my daily life, a) how and/or how is it insufficiently satisfying in my daily life?

5) To be clear jhana training is a friendly way to move the mind into choosing for itself total equanimity. One could do this through zen, "just sitting", open awareness and mantra/kasina practices, but anapanasati is a very simple four-jhana system to let the mind first taste the pleasure of steady, sustained focus (i.e, 1st jhana), to isolate and suffuse the mental feeling of pleasure (i.e., 2nd), to allow that pleasure to subside into comfort/stillness/mild pleasure-vibrancy (3rd, sukkha (sometimes people experience body boundaries ceasing here or in the lower jhana transitions --- feeling of just being a blob of pleasant, calm, still energy)) and then finally the mind must be so accustomed to these jhanas so un-wowed by them, so nearly bored by them, that it totally lets go and just sits, but sits with alert well-trained attention. Now fourth jhana attention - the attention of utter preferencelessness can arise, an very intimate and harmless form of attention. 4th jhana arises on its own, arise on the training; it cannot arise in the presence of desire, in my limited experience. So boredom and giving up are good affective precursor mental states, in a way : )

This practice and your mind are your lab, so it is totally your choice in how to spend its resources and I respect that each person has their urges to study this way and that way. What I've written above is just my take.

Each person has previous supporting conditions, so what I write here is not gospel, just what I know of myself.

I am still waiting on my jhana books as recommended by MCTB, so the only jhana I have studied in detail is the first, and a little of the second jhana. I really want to make sure that my concentration practices are top notch before moving forward with any insight meditation as MCTB seems to recommend it and it seems like a trustworthy source.

While my own philosophy prior to learning of buddhism was similar, and thus I have easily incorporated the philosophies into my life, I do find it unlikely that I have been able to reach these jhanas with such little effort. I have only been meditating for around a month, and really don't want to move on before I'm sure I have concentration skills good enough. I can though, maintain complete concentration for an hour.



I will do so. I agree that it's useless in and of itself, but I just want to make sure I have the basic skills down before moving on.



Makes complete sense. I am easily bored, and in all aspects of life enjoy the constancy of change and the joy of experimentation so I don't see this as a being a problem



Makes complete sense. Do you know of any resources that detail how you "know" you are ready to progress to the next stage? I feel like I could do equanimity right now, as I've been practicing that for around 10 years (just through my own personal philosophy).

Thanks!

Well, today I decided to just go where it takes me.

I went for the longest & deepest I have ever meditated for (2 hours with absolute ease) and I had a variety of experiences (different jhanas?) and some interesting insights.

- The point where my body ends and the chair starts is defined only in terms of atomic distance and the strength of association between atoms. So too with everything else. What we call I and not-I is simply an illusion.
- Consciousness is transcendent, i.e. encompasses it's components but produces something more than the sum of it's parts. By this definition of consciousness, the universe must have it.
- As my subconscious produces and filters thoughts based on my experience, so too do I produce thoughts for the universe. Clearly, my consciousness is (merely yet crucially) a part of an infinite transcendent consciousness, as I am transcendent of all that make up my mind.
- Thoughts that are deemed highly important in my brain worm their way to the top, so too must do the thoughts of many beings for the universe.
- The reason i cannot feel your (as in other peoples) body or thoughts, or the reason why I cannot feel a truck moving over the road in another city is the reason why one neuron in my body cannot feel the others. It has it's place as do we.
- To connect with the universal mind one simply needs to be still. Once still all is clear.

An interesting night indeed. Thank you katy for your guidance.

I wish it were that easy for me! Getting to the point where you can give yourself good exercise, diet, and therapy and support takes a lot of meditation... and for me, I've found that those things work very slowly compared to the anxiety relief of meditation.

Frisson, that is the term for the tingling chills, goosebumps, piloerections, or if you prefer horripulation. I usually get it or have it arise when listening to music, breathing meditation or prana excercises, when in a crowd and there is an emotional wave, like crowd sings star spangled banner, emotional scenes in a movie, when I think of ghosts or spirits. This sensation might also be related to kundalini type energy, but I am not sure. It also seems to be related to chi and microcosmic orbit techniques, So-Ham Kriya-Yoga. And true, it is also related to piti and sukkha, that can arise in the first jhana. But science, I believe calls it Frisson.

Anyway, hi

Peace

I found that to have a "good" diet one must find ways of making eating well easier than eating poorly. Try different ways of eating and lifestyle changes until one feels "easy". Make sure to remove any impediments to easy, and if that means changing your families life, doing the grocery shopping online or whatever, so be it. Similarly with exercise, you need to find out what you enjoy about it. For me, it's the experimentation (body as laboratory), but also exercising in the sun, so I simply design a routine that covers the basics but ensure I experiment with some new and exciting element, and when I can, I do it outdoors. Once you remove the things that make it a "diet & exercise plan" and it becomes an enjoyable part of your life, things simplify dramatically.

Thanks psi phi. I have found through my own experimentation that it gives you a temporary increase in focus & strength, like an adrenaline hit. Quite interesting.