Chakras and *AF*

A Dietrich Ringle, modified 8 Years ago at 2/23/14 12:14 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/23/14 12:14 PM

Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 882 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
I was just taking a shower and the thought occurred to me whether an "Pure" AF practitioner would experience chakras or have any ability to manipulate them.

Something I read by I think it was over at the Baptists Head was that the author explained that for him chakra openings occurred temporally (in the historical sense) from the top down.

On another vein I speculate whether it would be possible or not to open all the chakras (or would this be death) and still be alive.

Is an AF practitioner someone who has all the chakra's open or perhaps open from the top down to the level of the heart center (emotional core)?
thumbnail
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 8 Years ago at 2/23/14 12:52 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/23/14 12:52 PM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
I do not know. If by "AF practitioner" you mean person practicing actualism, then this person is a feeling-being so they would have chakras and be able to manipulate them if they put time into it (though I don't see why they would). If by "AF practitioner" you mean an actually free person, then they would have no emotional core so I'm not sure what would be the case. My speculation is - no chakras.
A Dietrich Ringle, modified 8 Years ago at 2/23/14 1:04 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/23/14 1:04 PM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 882 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
Thanks, I tend to agree.
Matthew, modified 8 Years ago at 2/23/14 2:31 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/23/14 2:31 PM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 119 Join Date: 1/30/13 Recent Posts
Pawel, what's your source for this information? I'd be interested in reading more.
T DC, modified 8 Years ago at 2/23/14 2:41 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/23/14 2:41 PM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 467 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
A D R:
I was just taking a shower and the thought occurred to me whether an "Pure" AF practitioner would experience chakras or have any ability to manipulate them.

Something I read by I think it was over at the Baptists Head was that the author explained that for him chakra openings occurred temporally (in the historical sense) from the top down.

On another vein I speculate whether it would be possible or not to open all the chakras (or would this be death) and still be alive.

Is an AF practitioner someone who has all the chakra's open or perhaps open from the top down to the level of the heart center (emotional core)?


I agree with Pawel that AF, or the traditional Buddhist path of insight, is somewhat unrelated to the chakras. Also I think the idea that opening the chakras would result in death is unrealistic and probably based in misinformation.

@Beoman: The chakras do more than than deal with emotions, this is somewhat of a mis-categorization. The heart chakra is really the main chakra in which emotions are centered. In no way is it possible to eliminate your chakras, and neither would this be desirable.

As I have claimed elsewhere, I am fully enlightened, and have totally overcome dualistic confusion, i.e. completed the path of insight, (which seems to be the point of AF). By dualistic confusion I am referring to the sense of being a separate actor separate from all other things. Thus here is my experience on this matter.

In our world, there are essentially two spiritual factors at play:

One is that in this world we experience ourselves as separate from the rest of creation. It is this factor which the path of insight seeks to overcome, and the full overcoming of it is known as enlightenment.

The second factor is that all of us are spiritual beings on a near-infinitely long spiritual journey. After completing enlightenment, thus fulfilling the primary challenge posed by our earth bound situation, we realize that the whole time we have been and still are still on a path of spiritual progression. It is our spiritual body which is enhanced on this second path, and the chakras could be described as the energetic powerhouses of our spiritual body. So after enlightenment, one still has to work with the chakras, and still has much to learn.

In essence, the teachings say that upon reaching Buddhahood we realize that we and all things have always been Buddhas and fully enlightened. This is to say that the path of overcoming dualistic confusion is in some sense superimposed upon the near-infinite path of spiritual progression, or it is a path of learning undertaken by infinitely existing spiritual beings.

(This should be understood as a point of humility for enlightened persons and gurus! They/we may have overcome dualistic confusion, but in no way have we reached perfection. The path of progression stretches to infinity, and truly spiritual masters are hardly more advanced than those they teach, except of course in their understanding of dualistic confusion.)

As Pawel said, it is probably best to open the chakras from the bottom up. The reason for this is in my experience that the chakras work together as an energetic system in which the appropriate functioning of each chakra is based largely in the functioning of the chakras below it. Anyhow, reading metaphysical information available online will probably help you understand this better than myself. If you are interested, Robert Bruce has tons of detailed information about this in his books.
thumbnail
(D Z) Dhru Val, modified 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 1:25 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 12:01 AM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 346 Join Date: 9/18/11 Recent Posts
From AF Website, emphasis mine...

SUBSCRIBER NO. 22: 6 – Peter, do you sense that your actual gravity center shifted to the heart/solar plexus now? I ask because you wrote to Subscriber No. 2 about this:
‘After the rudimentary microscopic backbone was formed, one of the very next cell types to transform from the next cell divisions were heart muscle cells, each one of which twitched such that as they began to collect together they eventually formed a pulsation or beating whole – the beginnings of a human heart, the essential blood pumping organ that gives vitality to a human body.’ (14.1.2010)

PETER: I see that my lack of clarity about this issue in the very first post to the Direct Route mail-out list has lead to a good deal of confusion, made even more confusing by my even more lack of clarity in the follow up post to Subscriber No. 10. (to No. 10, 17.1.2010)

Firstly it is good to put these posts in context in that they were both very raw in that they were written very soon after becoming actually free of the human condition. Whilst I had had some experiences of some minor remnants of the habitual patterns of previous behaviour prior to this (such as jumping from one topic to another in conversations or jumping from one thing to do to the next without fully completing the first instead of sensibly prioritising things to be done and re-adjusting my priorities when and as appropriate) experiencing the physical remnants of a previous very strong (12 year long) motivation still running as a physical sensation after becoming actually free was quite unexpected and at first confusing for me.
Now that the physical remnants of ‘his’ habitual heart-felt feelings and compulsive drive about doing whatever ‘he’ could to bring about peace on earth have now finally disappeared, I can understand what was happening at the time and also understand why it happened. An illusionary identity, over a period of 60 odd years, is so real that it caused physical symptoms in the flesh and body – a tightening of the chest muscles, in this case. When the identity expired these physical reactions were still habitually at ‘work’ and thus some after-the-event tidying up is required. A bare awareness or apperceptive attentiveness, does the trick far, far quicker than any identity-centred awareness could ever do.

Although I had an inkling of what to expect after becoming actually free because, although Richard reported how he experienced a ‘fine-tuning’ after the event ...

Richard: ‘...there needs to be a tidying-up of social mores and habitual patterns ‘after the event’ anyway ... an actual freedom does not miraculously remove every little detail. It does make the fine-tuning a breeze, though.’ Richard, List AF, No. 12b, 16.2.1999.

... it still came as somewhat of a shock to experience it myself, hence the confusion that transpired in my writing.
What I find remarkable is that one correspondent was able to work out what was happening for himself, apparently by a clear-eyed reading of the answers to questions posted on the Direct Route mail-out, and subsequently archived on the AF website –
Subscriber No. 2: ‘As for Peter’s experience ‘around the heart area’, I suspect / speculate that it’s nothing more than a temporary physical hangover of the now-defunct affective faculty...’ (Message #8899 Yahoo Group Actual Freedom)


http://actualfreedom.com.au/directroute/22.htm#20Jan1

-----------------------------------

So it seems in early AF at least there is some as a physical sensation of pain or tightness or whatever that would be diagnosed as chakra related in other traditions.
T DC, modified 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 12:23 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 12:23 AM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 467 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
(D Z) Dhru Val:


So it seems in early AF at least there is some as a physical sensation of pain or tightness or whatever that would be diagnosed as chakra related in other traditions.

Later on it is implied that this tightness disappears. In other traditions they might say something like the energy body is purified, or something.


I do not think some 'tightness in the chest' from habitual stress related patterns is equatable to chakra activity. This seems like a huge jump actually. Just because AF'ers say they are totally done, doesn't mean we should just read a bunch into their experience, especially in comparison to other traditions.

Chakra activity is a. not done upon enlightenment, and b. much more than just pain or tightness.
thumbnail
(D Z) Dhru Val, modified 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 1:26 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 1:24 AM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 346 Join Date: 9/18/11 Recent Posts
T DC:

I do not think some 'tightness in the chest' from habitual stress related patterns is equatable to chakra activity. This seems like a huge jump actually.


Not equitable, but it would be diagnosed as an indicator of chakra blockage in other traditions, for sure. Indicating that in early AF at-least something phenomenologically like the chakras is 'active'.


T DC:

Just because AF'ers say they are totally done, doesn't mean we should just read a bunch into their experience, especially in comparison to other traditions.

Chakra activity is a. not done upon enlightenment, and b. much more than just pain or tightness.


I agree. Though based on your other posts I think we have different definitions of enlightenment.

In hindsight this sentence I wrote is quite misleading...

Later on it is implied that this tightness disappears. In other traditions they might say something like the energy body is purified, or something


... broken beyond salvage, I will redact it.
John Wilde, modified 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 3:47 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 2:01 AM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 501 Join Date: 10/26/10 Recent Posts
Energetic stuff can definitely happen in AF, but who knows what type of energy it is, and how it relates to chakras, if at all.

For example, try going to Google and typing:

site:actualfreedom.com.au

... together with any of these search strings:

"energetic immanence"
"sparkling effervescence".
"magical prodigies"
"the quickening"
"ambrosial immanence"
"fine energy"
"upwards surge"
thumbnail
(D Z) Dhru Val, modified 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 8:14 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 8:01 AM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 346 Join Date: 9/18/11 Recent Posts
Look what I found...

On the following Monday (the 16th of November), the day after being notified of my second wife’s death, shortly after that ‘First Convivium Gathering’ had concluded and my select associates had all gone back to their respective residences thus leaving me once again on my own at the navigable head of that remote river system, this impetus resulted in a profound event occurring – the first of what became known as magical prodigies – whilst I was contemplating the significance of her death; a tremendous surge of calorific energy travelled from the lower solar-plexus, from just above the sex-centre, up through the rib-cage diaphragm, suffusing the entire thoracic region with a sparkling effervescence and generating a golden hue in the visual field; this prodigy, which came to be known as ‘the quickening’, remained operating 24/7 all through both the epoch-changing events of late 2009/early 2010 and those other magical prodigies, already made public knowledge, which enabled/ facilitated those events.

These last few months, beginning in the morning of Friday the 7th of October 2011, a clearer, finer version of ‘the quickening’ has been subtly making itself noticed more and more; by ‘clearer, finer’ I mean the visual field is marked by a distinct crystalline character, rather than a golden hue, and the sparkling effervescence, which is more full-body this time around, has a much finer quality to it such that a fine-champagne-bubbles type of word Devika made-up all those years ago – ‘tintling’ – seems to be most apt.

‘Tis all quite marvellous.
Regards, Richard.


http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/listdcorrespondence/listd25.htm
thumbnail
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 12:03 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 12:03 PM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Richard has written about this on a few occasions. He has pointed out a few times that the energy he refers to as "calorific energy" is physical in nature, not affective... meaning it's of an entirely different nature than that of, for examples, vibes, or being in the presence of a guru. Emphasis added.

RICHARD: G’day No. 10, I will answer the latter part of your query first (about distances up to several miles) by providing the relevant section of a private email I wrote in October last year. Vis.:

[indent]• [Richard]: ‘(...) This morning whilst interacting with Peter it [the quickening] was happening for about an hour and a half, between 10:45 and 12:15 PM, to quite a marked degree ... to such a marked degree, in fact, that at its peak Vineeto happened to experience it, at 11:28 AM, as she was getting into her parked car in a town about 35 kilometres away. She described it as a ‘sweetness’ (and thus took note of the time)’. (Monday the 17th October, 2011 8:31 PM).[/indent]
As to what the nature is, of this way of enabling/ facilitating access to the completely new consciousness – a totally original way of flesh-and-blood bodies being conscious – for all humankind to avail themselves of, it (of course) is purely physical in nature.

And, as this topic of the nature of bodily energy has been canvassed before, many times, on The Actual Freedom Trust website I will draw attention to that fact by providing a relevant quote. Vis.:

[indent]• [Co-Respondent]: ‘... some of your body processes are cellular, some are molecular and some are electric.
• [Richard]: ‘This flesh and blood body is part cellular (matter as mass) and part electric (matter as energy) ... a ‘molecule’, just like an ‘atom’, is a mathematical model.
• [Co-Respondent]: ‘What are the constituents out of which ‘energy’ is made?
• [Richard]: ‘The constituents out of which the energy of this flesh and blood body is made are the carrots and lettuce and milk and cheese, and whatever else is consumed, in conjunction with the air breathed and the water drunk and the sunlight absorbed’. (../richard/listafcorrespondence/listaf25i.htm#07Jun05).[/indent]
So, where I have just now written, above, that ‘the quickening’ (of course) is purely physical in nature I am clearly meaning the word physical in the sense that matter can be either mass (as in my ‘matter as mass’ words in that quote) or energy (as in my ‘matter as energy’ words in that quote).

Furthermore, where I wrote to Respondent No. 25 about how ‘a tremendous surge of calorific energy travelled from the lower solar-plexus’ on the 16th of November 2009, when what became known as ‘the quickening’ first manifested, I am clearly meaning ‘calorific energy’ in the sense of what is unambiguously conveyed in that ‘the constituents out of which the energy of this flesh and blood body is made are the carrots and lettuce and milk and cheese, and whatever else is consumed, in conjunction with the air breathed and the water drunk and the sunlight absorbed’ response of mine, in that above quote, to the specific question as to what the nature of the electrical energy of this flesh-and-blood body typing these words is.

http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/listdcorrespondence/listd10.htm

He's talked about calorific energy before:

RICHARD: ... Thus one is reliably rendered relatively innocent (and virtually happy and harmless) by the benefaction of the perfection and purity of this infinite and eternal and perpetual universe and therefore one is no longer alone in this monumental endeavour ... one has all the energy of infinitude at one’s disposal.

RESPONDENT: Could you please explain the last part a bit more [‘one has all the energy of infinitude at one’s disposal’] as it does sound somewhat metaphysical.

RICHARD: Not metaphysical, no. I am talking of the physical infinitude of this physical universe (‘this infinite and eternal and perpetual universe’) thus the energy of infinitude referred to is a physical energy ... specifically the calorific energy of an apperceptive consciousness.

I can explain it this way: the apperceptive brain in action in the human skull is a ‘self’-less consciousness (a consciousness not fettered by any identity whatsoever) and as such is an unlimited consciousness automatically conscious of the perfection and purity of the infinitude of the universe as an on-going awareness. For a person in the ‘real world’ such a consciousness exists in another dimension – in the infinite and eternal and perpetual actual world in fact – yet is mostly mistaken by peoples to be a god-like consciousness (a non-calorific energy in some timeless and spaceless and formless dimension).

Yet it is nothing more mysterious than the flesh and blood body being apperceptively aware.

One needs to contact, or have a connection with, this apperceptive awareness so as to no longer be alone in the monumental endeavour to end all the misery and mayhem which epitomises the human condition. Hence the activation of one’s innate naiveté – the closest approximation to innocence one can have whilst being a ‘self’ – ensures that such a connection is sustained.

This connection I call pure intent

and

RESPONDENT: But at the level of the human consciousness; the thing inside the skull ...

RICHARD: Consciousness is not a ‘thing’ (as in an entity, a ‘being’) ... it is an energised neuronal activity (energised by a food-calorific energy) happening inside the skull (and I am not merely nit-picking as this is a vital distinction to be aware of).

Both from http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/selectedcorrespondence/sc-consciousness.htm.

As to what relation this calorific energy has to chakras - or in other words, to what extent chakras have a physical basis - I don't know!
John Wilde, modified 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 5:12 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 4:56 PM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 501 Join Date: 10/26/10 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Richard has written about this on a few occasions. He has pointed out a few times that the energy he refers to as "calorific energy" is physical in nature, not affective... meaning it's of an entirely different nature than that of, for examples, vibes, or being in the presence of a guru. Emphasis added.


My natural tendency is to mock and lampoon this stuff, because it sounds so out-there. But giving it the benefit of the doubt, as a half-serious suggestion... if you think this is plausible, have you and Srid and other technically competent people thought about investigating it scientifically? If it is actual, physical energy, then in principle you could rig up a device that can detect its presence and it's intensity -- a kind of sweetness meter :-)

I myself don't believe that this is actual transmissible energy, but it would surely be a huge advance both for science and for actualism if someone could demonstrate that it is. It would show there's genuinely something new happening here, something that is indeed beyond imagination, beyond affect, beyond anything known... and that would be genuinely worthwhile.

Having said that, I'd be the last person to give anyone career advice -- and I don't recommend taking up this suggestion ;-)
thumbnail
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 5:15 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 5:13 PM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
John Wilde:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Richard has written about this on a few occasions. He has pointed out a few times that the energy he refers to as "calorific energy" is physical in nature, not affective... meaning it's of an entirely different nature than that of, for examples, vibes, or being in the presence of a guru. Emphasis added.

My natural tendency is to mock and lampoon this stuff, because it sounds so out-there. But giving it the benefit of the doubt, as a half-serious suggestion... if you think this is plausible, have you and Srid and other technically competent people thought about investigating it scientifically? If it is actual, physical energy, then in principle you could rig up a device that can detect its presence and it's intensity -- a kind of sweetness meter :-)

I myself don't believe that this is actual transmissible energy, but it would surely be a huge advance both for science and for actualism if someone could demonstrate that it is. It would show there's genuinely something new happening here, something that is indeed beyond imagination, beyond affect, beyond anything known... and that would be genuinely worthwhile.

Having said that, I'd be the last person to give anyone career advice -- and I don't recommend taking up this suggestion ;-)

That should be possible. I have no idea how one would go about doing that, though, and in any case we'd have to wait awhile until we have more people capable of manifesting these things and ideally in a more on-demand way before we could perform rigorous scientific experiments, so I will take your suggestion to not take up this suggestion.
John Wilde, modified 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 5:34 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 5:34 PM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 501 Join Date: 10/26/10 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

That should be possible. I have no idea how one would go about doing that, though, and in any case we'd have to wait awhile until we have more people capable of manifesting these things and ideally in a more on-demand way before we could perform rigorous scientific experiments, so I will take your suggestion to not take up this suggestion.


Fair enough. As for how it could be done, perhaps a good first step would be to find out if fluctuations in the intensity of the energy (as experienced) corresponds to any measurable physical changes in the body of the experiencer. It wouldn't tell you what the energy is or how to detect it in transit, but when you have two people separated by distance, you'd be able to spot synchronised changes in their nervous systems if you know what to look for.
John Wilde, modified 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 5:49 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/25/14 5:49 PM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 501 Join Date: 10/26/10 Recent Posts
John Wilde:

Fair enough. As for how it could be done, perhaps a good first step would be to find out if fluctuations in the intensity of the energy (as experienced) corresponds to any measurable physical changes in the body of the experiencer. It wouldn't tell you what the energy is or how to detect it in transit, but when you have two people separated by distance, you'd be able to spot synchronised changes in their nervous systems if you know what to look for.


Or perhaps the notion of "in transit" is a faulty assumption. It's possible that the energy is not being transmitted from one to another but is experienced by both at different locations because of a common cause. But even so, picking up synchrony in their experience would show something interesting.
thumbnail
(D Z) Dhru Val, modified 8 Years ago at 2/26/14 2:55 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/26/14 2:54 AM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 346 Join Date: 9/18/11 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Richard has written about this on a few occasions. He has pointed out a few times that the energy he refers to as "calorific energy" is physical in nature, not affective... meaning it's of an entirely different nature than that of, for examples, vibes, or being in the presence of a guru. Emphasis added.


I wonder how or if he would experientially know that it is 'calorific' ?

Of course all of my body and brain's functioning is calorific, in that without food I would eventually die. But that is not really the crux of the matter.

It is possible to experience energetic phenomenon purely as pain, heat, etc, i.e. in completely non-affective ways.

But 'calorific' reads like it is part of Richards narrative on energetic phenomenon rather than an experiential thing.

The problem is the narrative is a lot more convoluted than it needs to be, borderline mythological and delusional.

Based on what I read toady, Richard had some energetic stuff arise as he contemplates his wife's death.

Rather than considering that the energetic phenomenon may have something do with his ruminations on her death.

He considers her death has having lifted some sort of psychic blockage from him. That she had set up as a feeling being during her lifetime. And it only gets weirder from there.

An energy that only he as the genitor of an entirely new way of being has access to, magical prodigies, and so on.

It is not uncommon for various gurus to start getting in to these sorts of myth making around their own specialness. How they are totally different from every other teaching etc. So you can see why it would raise some red flags.
thumbnail
sawfoot _, modified 8 Years ago at 2/26/14 3:23 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/26/14 3:19 AM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 507 Join Date: 3/11/13 Recent Posts
John Wilde:

My natural tendency is to mock and lampoon this stuff, because it sounds so out-there


My tendency too, John.

John Wilde:
Energetic stuff can definitely happen in AF, but who knows what type of energy it is, and how it relates to chakras, if at all.


Magic pixie dust left in the trials of faeries?

John Wilde:


"energetic immanence"
"sparkling effervescence".
"magical prodigies"
"the quickening"
"ambrosial immanence"
"fine energy"
"upwards surge"


This might just be my dirty mind, but don't some of these sound a bit rude?


(D Z) Dhru Val:

The problem is the narrative is a lot more convoluted than it needs to be, borderline mythological and delusional.


Borderline? What would be over the line?
Adam , modified 8 Years ago at 2/26/14 10:00 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/26/14 10:00 AM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent Posts
This might just be my dirty mind, but don't some of these sound a bit rude?


I lold
thumbnail
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 8 Years ago at 2/26/14 12:01 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/26/14 10:43 AM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
(D Z) Dhru Val:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Richard has written about this on a few occasions. He has pointed out a few times that the energy he refers to as "calorific energy" is physical in nature, not affective... meaning it's of an entirely different nature than that of, for examples, vibes, or being in the presence of a guru. Emphasis added.


I wonder how or if he would experientially know that it is 'calorific' ?

Of course all of my body and brain's functioning is calorific, in that without food I would eventually die. But that is not really the crux of the matter.

It is possible to experience energetic phenomenon purely as pain, heat, etc, i.e. in completely non-affective ways.

I don't really know much about them but it seems that just as with regular affective phenomena, an energetic phenomenon can cause sensations of pain and heat etc., which sensations are not affective, but that doesn't mean the energetic phenomenon itself isn't affective. Fear causes your heartbeat to increase. Your heartbeat increasing is a physical thing, not affective - but the fear is affective.

(D Z) Dhru Val:
But 'calorific' reads like it is part of Richards narrative on energetic phenomenon rather than an experiential thing.

The knowledge that the affective faculty is gone, i.e. that one is actually free, is experiential. So I would say knowing the energy was calorific is experiential in that same vein. Consider that he was a 'normal' person, and then an 'enlightened' person, wherein he had lots and lots of experiences of affective and psychic phenomenon. So his experiential report is of a non-affective and non-psychic phenomenon occurring. You are saying, what if he is wrong? Then he wouldn't be actually free, and actually there would be no such thing as actual freedom (or there would be, but he wouldn't be actually free, but somehow while being deluded that he was actually free he was able to help others become legitimately actually free).

(D Z) Dhru Val:
The problem is the narrative is a lot more convoluted than it needs to be, borderline mythological and delusional.

Than it needs to be if what? What would a less convoluted interpretation of these events be? It seems to me he is mostly just describing the sequence of events:

1) He found himself impressing the importance of out-from-control to Vineeto.
2) His associates noticed they no longer experienced a block barring their access to actuality.
3) He later found out that Devika/Irene had died shortly before these things were noticed.
4) While alone he contemplated the significance of her death.
5) He experienced a new phenomenon, one he would never have thought could happen before from my conversations with him, described as a surge of energy.
6) This phenomenon somehow helped facilitate others becoming actually free.

etc. So what is convoluted about that? Most of it is just a report of what happened.

(D Z) Dhru Val:
Based on what I read toady, Richard had some energetic stuff arise as he contemplates his wife's death.

Rather than considering that the energetic phenomenon may have something do with his ruminations on her death.

Where does he say he doesn't consider it had something to do with his ruminations on her death? He exactly does consider it had something to do with her death.

(D Z) Dhru Val:
He considers her death has having lifted some sort of psychic blockage from him. That she had set up as a feeling being during her lifetime. And it only gets weirder from there.

No, if you read it all again, the blockage wasn't lifted from him. It was lifted from the human psyche. He never experienced the blockage nor experienced it being lifted. But he noticed something was different about the feeling-beings he was hanging out with. This eventually led to the (calorific) energetic phenomena he described.

(D Z) Dhru Val:
An energy that only he as the genitor of an entirely new way of being has access to, magical prodigies, and so on.

It is not uncommon for various gurus to start getting in to these sorts of myth making around their own specialness. How they are totally different from every other teaching etc. So you can see why it would raise some red flags.

Yes, it is definitely some weird stuff.
thumbnail
(D Z) Dhru Val, modified 8 Years ago at 2/27/14 12:17 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/27/14 12:17 AM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 346 Join Date: 9/18/11 Recent Posts
Hi Claudiu,

I appreciate your well thought out responses.

Although my tone and general attitude towards AF is admittedly skeptical. It is never my intention to attack the AF movement or its practitioners. How can I possibly be against people who seek to be happy and harmless...

I hope to continue this dialogue further...

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

e. Fear causes your heartbeat to increase. Your heartbeat increasing is a physical thing, not affective - but the fear is affective.


Consider the following...

If a person sees a tiger and their heart rate increases, without feeling the slightest bit of fear or adrenal response is s/he being driven by affect?


If a person sees a tiger and runs to safety, without feeling the slightest bit of fear or adrenal response is s/he being driven by affect?

If a person ruminating on his wife's death, feels weird energetic stuff without the slightest bit of emotional response in his body is he being driven by affect?




Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

The knowledge that the affective faculty is gone, i.e. that one is actually free, is experiential. So I would say knowing the energy was calorific is experiential in that same vein. Consider that he was a 'normal' person, and then an 'enlightened' person, wherein he had lots and lots of experiences of affective and psychic phenomenon. So his experiential report is of a non-affective and non-psychic phenomenon occurring. You are saying, what if he is wrong? Then he wouldn't be actually free, and actually there would be no such thing as actual freedom (or there would be, but he wouldn't be actually free, but somehow while being deluded that he was actually free he was able to help others become legitimately actually free).


Various realizations or attainments can shift they nature of experience. So energetic stuff he experience as a normal person wouldn't feel the same to him as an enlightened person. And if Richard as an AF person could feel energetic stuff, it reasons that it would have a different quality to it.


Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:


Than it needs to be if what? What would a less convoluted interpretation of these events be? It seems to me he is mostly just describing the sequence of events:

1) He found himself impressing the importance of out-from-control to Vineeto.
2) His associates noticed they no longer experienced a block barring their access to actuality.
3) He later found out that Devika/Irene had died shortly before these things were noticed.
4) While alone he contemplated the significance of her death.
5) He experienced a new phenomenon, one he would never have thought could happen before from my conversations with him, described as a surge of energy.
6) This phenomenon somehow helped facilitate others becoming actually free.

etc. So what is convoluted about that? Most of it is just a report of what happened.


This is easily explained by the following

1) same mechanism that causes us to see shapes in the clouds.
2) A belief that no affectively related phenomenon could possibly result in some sort of bodily sensations for the AF founder.
3) First virtual conivivum meeting taking place.

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
(D Z) Dhru Val:
Based on what I read toady, Richard had some energetic stuff arise as he contemplates his wife's death.

Rather than considering that the energetic phenomenon may have something do with his ruminations on her death.

Where does he say he doesn't consider it had something to do with his ruminations on her death? He exactly does consider it had something to do with her death.


He considers that it had to do with her physical death removing the psychic force field set up by her (on others).

I think it may have had to do with the brain-body interaction of his ruminations on her death. i.e. not something special compared to other phenomenon.


Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

(D Z) Dhru Val:
He considers her death has having lifted some sort of psychic blockage from him. That she had set up as a feeling being during her lifetime. And it only gets weirder from there.

No, if you read it all again, the blockage wasn't lifted from him. It was lifted from the human psyche. He never experienced the blockage nor experienced it being lifted. But he noticed something was different about the feeling-beings he was hanging out with. This eventually led to the (calorific) energetic phenomena he described.


Ok. So the idea is that an AF person is not capable of being blocked, due to lack of psyche.

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

Yes, it is definitely some weird stuff.


It is more the sort of cultish aspect that I am weary of. To be fair I find that in tibetan buddhism as well to some extent.
thumbnail
sawfoot _, modified 8 Years ago at 2/27/14 3:19 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/27/14 3:13 AM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 507 Join Date: 3/11/13 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:


I don't really know much about them but it seems that just as with regular affective phenomena, an energetic phenomenon can cause sensations of pain and heat etc., which sensations are not affective, but that doesn't mean the energetic phenomenon itself isn't affective. Fear causes your heartbeat to increase. Your heartbeat increasing is a physical thing, not affective - but the fear is affective.



Have you heard of the James-Lange theory of emotion?? It is has been around a long time and is perhaps the most widely accepted theory of emotions in psychology these days.

On this theory, the increase in your heartbeat causes the fear, not the other way round. Affect is the perception of physical changes in your body.

A little challenge for you - if you were to engage in a thought experiment of overturning your previously held beliefs and assumptions and taking this theory as being correct, what are the consequences for your understanding of the AF process regarding emotions?



Pawel:

actually there is no need for any metaphysical energy to feel energetic sensations. There is no need to be 'believer' to work with chakras either. It is kinda beside the point actually...


Indeed. Until such time that we discover the magic pixie fairy energy dust with future technology, perhaps it is best to assume that this is just stuff happening in our brains as a product of electrical impulses between neurons that give rises to bodily perceptions? It doesn't mean we have to discount chakra's and energetic phenomena altogether, but we might have a better starting point to understand them. And we could avoid having in-depth discussions about "calorific energy" and the like.
thumbnail
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 8 Years ago at 2/27/14 12:24 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/27/14 10:15 AM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
sawfoot _:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
I don't really know much about them but it seems that just as with regular affective phenomena, an energetic phenomenon can cause sensations of pain and heat etc., which sensations are not affective, but that doesn't mean the energetic phenomenon itself isn't affective. Fear causes your heartbeat to increase. Your heartbeat increasing is a physical thing, not affective - but the fear is affective.


Have you heard of the James-Lange theory of emotion?? It is has been around a long time and is perhaps the most widely accepted theory of emotions in psychology these days.

On this theory, the increase in your heartbeat causes the fear, not the other way round. Affect is the perception of physical changes in your body.

What's your citation for it being the most widely accepted theory of emotions? I even found an article saying "While the James-Lange theory is largely discounted by modern researchers, there are some instances where physiological responses do lead to the experience of emotions." Not that that's a definitive source.

There's also the Cannon-Bard theory of emotion which states that "The physiological changes and subjective feeling of an emotion in response to a stimulus are separate and independent; arousal does not have to occur before the emotion." From my extremely light reading it seems there is still contention as to which one is the most accurate.

sawfoot _:
A little challenge for you - if you were to engage in a thought experiment of overturning your previously held beliefs and assumptions and taking this theory as being correct, what are the consequences for your understanding of the AF process regarding emotions?

(EDITED) It means that the actualism process would either (a) stop physiological changes from occurring that normally do, the experience of which is an emotion, or (b) it wouldn't stop those changes, but it would stop any emotion from forming from them, so there would still be increased heart rate and perception of it but no emotion felt or vibes given off.

However, the theory is actually (according to William James): "My thesis on the contrary is that the bodily changes follow directly the PERCEPTION of the exciting fact, and that our feeling of the same changes as they occur is the emotion [...]" Thus if the theory is correct, (b) would be impossible, so it would be either (a) or (c) it wouldn't stop those changes, but it would render you incapable of perceiving them. So your heart rate would increase, and your palms would be sweaty, just like normal people, but you would be incapable of noticing these things, since if you noticed these things you would according the theory be experiencing an emotion.

(c) seems extremely unlikely to be honest.

Assuming that one's sense faculties remain intact, then there is evidence that (a) is what happens, regardless of the validity of this particular theory:

Richard:
A classic example of this occurred whilst strolling along a country lane one fine morning [...] this mind, other than the sheer enjoyment and appreciation of being alive as this flesh and blood body, is ambling along in neutral – there is no thought at all and conscious alertness is null and void – when all-of-a-sudden the easy gait has ceased happening.

These eyes instantly shift from admiring the dun-coloured cows in a field nearby and are looking downward to the front and see the green and black snake, coiling up on the road in readiness to act, which had not only occasioned the abrupt halt but, it is discovered, had initiated a rapid step backwards ... an instinctive response which, had the instinctual passions that are the identity been in situ, could very well have triggered off freeze-fight-flee chemicals.

There is no perturbation whatsoever (no wide-eyed staring, no increase in heart-beat, no rapid breathing, no adrenaline-tensed muscle tone, no sweaty palms, no blood draining from the face, no dry mouth, no cortisol-induced heightened awareness, and so on) as with the complete absence of the rudimentary animal ‘self’ in the primordial brain the limbic system in general, and the amygdala in particular, have been free to do their job – the oh-so-vital startle response – both efficaciously and cleanly.
[link]

In this case he had a physical reflex reaction, but no emotion, and also no increased heart-beat, rapid breathing etc.
thumbnail
sawfoot _, modified 8 Years ago at 2/27/14 2:38 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/27/14 2:38 PM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 507 Join Date: 3/11/13 Recent Posts
Thanks for taking up the challenge. Beoman.

That it is the most widely held is my perception (and I am biased because I like it as a theory). You are right that it is still quite contentious, and I should add that in its original form it is kinda wrong (as the original "James-Lange theory") - I am referring more to neo-Jamesian theories (e.g. somatic feedback stuff like Damasio and Prinz).

Certainly, the picture is complex, but there is plenty of evidence for the James-Lange insight (emotions as perceptions of bodily states), so I think, at least, it is an important (but very much incomplete) part of the picture of how emotions work, and it is nicely counter-intuitive.

The quote from Richard is interesting, though I would be skeptical (it isn't like he was hooked up to a heart rate monitor, for example).

I don't know so much about AF, but I think the James-Lange way of thinking is interesting when considering how vipassana works - since much of vipassana involves close examination of bodily sensations (particularly in regard to stress/dukkha) and sustained practice can have these profound changes in our emotional lives.

In response to your A,B,C, maybe one way of thinking about it is that although you might have some physiological responses, your perception of them becomes so changed (over time) such that you don't get stuck in those feedback loops where the emotional perception enhances the physiological response, which heightens the perception of emotion, and so on. I think there is also going to be significant cognitive component to it though as well (i.e. you train yourself not to see certain situations as stressful).
John Wilde, modified 8 Years ago at 2/27/14 5:18 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/27/14 4:37 PM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 501 Join Date: 10/26/10 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

(c) it wouldn't stop those changes, but it would render you incapable of perceiving them. So your heart rate would increase, and your palms would be sweaty, just like normal people, but you would be incapable of noticing these things, since if you noticed these things you would according the theory be experiencing an emotion.


With that in mind, I don't understand how the theory could account for alexithymia. If the physiological reaction is the emotion, how could one person experience it as emotion while another does not?

That aside, I think Sawfoot's last paragraph leads to something important.

Sawfoot:

In response to your A,B,C, maybe one way of thinking about it is that although you might have some physiological responses, your perception of them becomes so changed (over time) such that you don't get stuck in those feedback loops where the emotional perception enhances the physiological response, which heightens the perception of emotion, and so on. I think there is also going to be significant cognitive component to it though as well (i.e. you train yourself not to see certain situations as stressful).


Our understanding of what we experience, our way of explaining it to ourselves, feeds back into the system and influences what we experience next.

One guy has a mushroom trip and thinks, fuck, never again! Another guy has the same mushrooms and thinks, ah, that was great, shows me what life could be like if only... Third guy has the same mushrooms and thinks he's been shown a revelation and chosen to be the next saviour of humankind, and it sets him off on lifelong mission to realise that aim. Those people are going to feel and act differently, and it'll influence what happens next, which will then feed back into both what they experience and how they explain it, and so on.

Once a person casts off consensus reality -- and there are many ways that this can and does happen -- e.g., by believing that one is at the vanguard of human consciousness and/or has a divine mission -- it's going to lead to profoundly different ways of experiencing and explaining life than if you remain within the consensus reality (which depends no less on those same feedback mechanisms).

And when you extend this over a period of decades, there's a lot of opportunity for discovering things that lay way outside the normal band of human experience, but there's also a lot of scope for going a long way astray, especially if you lack reliable feedback from someone who can set you straight when you're wrong, and when it's needed. But if the very nature of your belief system makes you impervious to feedback and impervious to the best explanation of what's really going on, etc, you're really walled up in something impenetrable.

For that reason, I usually take it at face value when someone says "I experience XYZ", but when they say "I experience XYZ because of ABC", I'm a lot more cautious.
thumbnail
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 8 Years ago at 2/27/14 6:46 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/27/14 6:44 PM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
(D Z) Dhru Val:
Hi Claudiu,

I appreciate your well thought out responses.

Although my tone and general attitude towards AF is admittedly skeptical. It is never my intention to attack the AF movement or its practitioners. How can I possibly be against people who seek to be happy and harmless...

I hope to continue this dialogue further...

Sure, I have fun dialoguing in a light-hearted manner.

(D Z) Dhru Val:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

e. Fear causes your heartbeat to increase. Your heartbeat increasing is a physical thing, not affective - but the fear is affective.


Consider the following...

If a person sees a tiger and their heart rate increases, without feeling the slightest bit of fear or adrenal response is s/he being driven by affect?

Hmm, maybe. Why is their heart rate increasing? Consider this quote:
Richard:
I also watched an account on television, by a U.S. naval pilot flying off carriers during the battle of Midway, and other battles that followed, where he spoke of himself and other pilots experiencing fear prior to take-off. He said that, instead of trying to overcome fear like his buddies, he would ‘go into the fear itself’ (direct quote). He would encourage it to grow and increase in intensity until, sitting strapped into the pilot’s seat as the plane catapulted down the flight-deck, the very intensity of terror would propel him into ‘another world of utter calm’ (or words to that effect) wherein all his senses were heightened and he was spontaneously super-alert ... without any effort. He was able to conduct his designated sortie with outstanding assurance, born out of the enhanced clarity of his unafraid state of being ... until he came back to the ship and – having landed safely – would slip back into the normal world and start compulsively shaking with delayed-action fear at the enormity of what he had just done. [link]

So one could say that while the pilot was in that 'other world of calm', he wasn't feeling fear, yet he was being driven by affect - in particular, he had created an altered state of consciousness out of that fear.

(D Z) Dhru Val:
If a person sees a tiger and runs to safety, without feeling the slightest bit of fear or adrenal response is s/he being driven by affect?

Again, maybe, but not necessarily. It could just be an actually free person, or somebody not easily frightened where the tiger doesn't trigger any fear, rationally deciding to run to safety.

(D Z) Dhru Val:
If a person ruminating on his wife's death, feels weird energetic stuff without the slightest bit of emotional response in his body is he being driven by affect?

Maybe, but not necessarily.

(D Z) Dhru Val:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

The knowledge that the affective faculty is gone, i.e. that one is actually free, is experiential. So I would say knowing the energy was calorific is experiential in that same vein. Consider that he was a 'normal' person, and then an 'enlightened' person, wherein he had lots and lots of experiences of affective and psychic phenomenon. So his experiential report is of a non-affective and non-psychic phenomenon occurring. You are saying, what if he is wrong? Then he wouldn't be actually free, and actually there would be no such thing as actual freedom (or there would be, but he wouldn't be actually free, but somehow while being deluded that he was actually free he was able to help others become legitimately actually free).


Various realizations or attainments can shift they nature of experience. So energetic stuff he experience as a normal person wouldn't feel the same to him as an enlightened person. And if Richard as an AF person could feel energetic stuff, it reasons that it would have a different quality to it.

Sure. But would it be the same energetic stuff experienced differently? Or something fundamentally different with perhaps certain similarities? Hard to say from where we're sitting, except that if the energetic stuff was affective in nature it would mean everything Richard has written about is a gigantic delusion, which doesn't quite fit together from my experience of the actual world, and my experience interacting with him.

(D Z) Dhru Val:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Than it needs to be if what? What would a less convoluted interpretation of these events be? It seems to me he is mostly just describing the sequence of events:

1) He found himself impressing the importance of out-from-control to Vineeto.
2) His associates noticed they no longer experienced a block barring their access to actuality.
3) He later found out that Devika/Irene had died shortly before these things were noticed.
4) While alone he contemplated the significance of her death.
5) He experienced a new phenomenon, one he would never have thought could happen before from my conversations with him, described as a surge of energy.
6) This phenomenon somehow helped facilitate others becoming actually free.

etc. So what is convoluted about that? Most of it is just a report of what happened.


This is easily explained by the following

1) same mechanism that causes us to see shapes in the clouds.
2) A belief that no affectively related phenomenon could possibly result in some sort of bodily sensations for the AF founder.
3) First virtual conivivum meeting taking place.

So you are saying it was a coincidence that certain things started happening shortly after Devika/Irene died but before anybody found out about it? That might very well be the case. As to #2, not sure what you're getting at.

(D Z) Dhru Val:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
(D Z) Dhru Val:
Based on what I read toady, Richard had some energetic stuff arise as he contemplates his wife's death.

Rather than considering that the energetic phenomenon may have something do with his ruminations on her death.

Where does he say he doesn't consider it had something to do with his ruminations on her death? He exactly does consider it had something to do with her death.


He considers that it had to do with her physical death removing the psychic force field set up by her (on others).

I think it may have had to do with the brain-body interaction of his ruminations on her death. i.e. not something special compared to other phenomenon.

Well in any case I would call it "special" in that it was different enough from what was experienced before to warrant Richard to write about and describe it. Nothing like it features in what he's written before. As to it happening just because he was thinking about his ex-wife's death, maybe. Then it would just be a coincidence that it was also the convivum gathering and that it helped other people become actually free? Very possible. I asked him in person how the thing gets started or why it starts or whether he can turn it on, he said he couldn't turn it on and that he had no idea how or why it starts or stops.

(D Z) Dhru Val:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

(D Z) Dhru Val:
He considers her death has having lifted some sort of psychic blockage from him. That she had set up as a feeling being during her lifetime. And it only gets weirder from there.

No, if you read it all again, the blockage wasn't lifted from him. It was lifted from the human psyche. He never experienced the blockage nor experienced it being lifted. But he noticed something was different about the feeling-beings he was hanging out with. This eventually led to the (calorific) energetic phenomena he described.


Ok. So the idea is that an AF person is not capable of being blocked, due to lack of psyche.

Yes. Basically an actually free person is totally removed from the psychic and emotional realm. While other people have a presence about them, and there are vibes in the air when there's a lot of people together, actually free people emit no such vibes. I had an experience with Richard & Vineeto at the airport, and I could feel out other people as intuitive dots of presence, yet when I tried to feel out Richard & Vineeto, I got nothing - they were like the tables and the chairs. Plus the atmosphere was thick with vibes, yet they completely passed through Richard & Vineeto, neither affecting them nor being affected by them, plus they were totally oblivious to them all. It was quite the interesting experience.

(D Z) Dhru Val:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

Yes, it is definitely some weird stuff.


It is more the sort of cultish aspect that I am weary of. To be fair I find that in tibetan buddhism as well to some extent.

I hear ya. When those alarm bells start loudly ringing, it's worth taking a look to see why they are. They might be accurate. But also maybe not. In any case, anything that's new and radical is going to set off a lot of alarm bells and ruffle a lot of feathers, that is for sure.
thumbnail
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 8 Years ago at 2/27/14 9:21 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/27/14 9:18 PM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
I actually asked Richard about this, before I went to visit him in Australia. Taken from this link. WARNING: Weird stuff ahead! But as Richard wrote it to a public forum and has publicly posted it clearly it isn't anything he thinks should be hidden or is contraindicative to him being actually free from the human condition (which is what "actually free" is short for).

CLAUDIU: Which ‘enabling/ facilitating feature’ are you referring to?

RICHARD: I am referring to that feature peculiar to being the genitor of the completely new consciousness (a totally original way of being conscious) for all humankind to avail themselves of ... to wit: the magical prodigy which became known as ‘the quickening’.

CLAUDIU: Is that to say that ‘the quickening’ is something that has only happened, and will only ever happen, to the genitor of the completely new consciousness?

RICHARD: Purely by virtue of being the first male to become actually free from the human condition it comes with the territory, so to speak, that there be a way of enabling/ facilitating access to the completely new consciousness (a totally original way of being conscious) for all humankind to avail themselves of.

CLAUDIU: What prevents it from happening to Vineeto, for example?

RICHARD: Given that she is the the first female to become actually free from the human condition there is, of course, nothing to prevent it from happening to Vineeto.

Indeed she has been interacting with me intensively with that very intention; an existential event of some considerable significance in regard to this intent took place between 3:30 and 4:00 AM on the 28th of August 2011, for instance.

For about three weeks prior to this she had been experiencing a near-constant pressure-pain in the nape of the neck, so she knew that something was imminent, as well as experiencing what she referred to as ‘an ambrosial immanence’ filling her up, inasmuch from time-to-time she could bear no more of it (such as to cause her to refrain from interacting intensively for two-three days until it dissipated) due to it being ‘too much’ or ‘too overwhelming’ for her.

Then, at the moment she became essentially the same as me (how I have been, on my own, all these years) there was a tremendous upwards surge of that energetic immanence, in and around my head and shoulders region, of such a potency, of such a strength, as would previously (on some occasion) render me utterly passive, completely immobile, and scarcely able to bear with it, to contain its immensity.

On this occasion, however, it was able to flow freely – it was as if a circuit had been formed betwixt the two of us – and a second, equally potent, surge of that existential immanence followed the first (again in an upwardly direction in and around my head and shoulders region) a short while later.

Regarding that reference to a circuit having been formed, I am reminded of first being shown, as a child in High School, how a magnet produces a magnetic field by holding a sheet of paper over it and sprinkling iron-filings upon its surface; as there is a potent field now operating it is as if the two of us, a male and a female, are the ‘north’ and ‘south’ poles of a magnet; alternatively, the effect could perhaps be likened to the ‘anode’ and ‘cathode’ of a battery generating an electric current (and thus producing an electric field) when a circuit is completed.

Be that as it may be: those potent surges were of such a magnitude that a rather remarkable man on another continent experienced what he had earlier reported as being a ‘gentle energy’ (which he had further described, then, as being ‘totally harmless’) pouring into him, transfixing him in a sort of immobility (not of the body) and overwhelming him to such an extent that he communicated with me four days later, via email, and we were able to establish, with all due care taken in respect to time-zone differences, that the two events were congruent.

CLAUDIU: I am still curious how ‘the quickening’ differs from a ‘blissful’/ ‘euphoric’ altered state of consciousness/ state of ‘being’.

RICHARD: Well, just for starters it is, of course, entirely non-affective.

[...]

Second, it is not even remotely similar to such coarse experiences as blissfulness and euphoria; it is of a quality of such fineness that a fine-champagne-bubbles type of word my second wife (de jure) made up all those years ago – ‘tintling’ – seems to be most apt.

Third, it all takes place here in this actual world – the world of the senses, the sensate world, the world where flesh-and-bodies already reside, as experienced in PCE’s – whereas a state of ‘being’, as experienced in ASC’s, takes place in the world of the psyche, the inner world, the world where flesh-and-bodies have no footing (as in ‘ettha āpo ca paṭhavī ca tejo vāyo na gādhati’, for instance, in D i.223 & S i.15[1]).

Lastly, a ‘‘blissful’/ ‘euphoric’ altered state of consciousness/ state of ‘being’’ could never, ever, have enabled/ facilitated the epoch-changing events of late 2009/early 2010.

CLAUDIU: For example, if what you describe started happening to me ...

RICHARD: Rest assured that what I describe – a feature peculiar to being the genitor of the completely new consciousness (a totally original way of being conscious) for all humankind to avail themselves of – will not start happening to you.

CLAUDIU: ... I would likely think that this is ‘feeling’ gone wild, a ‘blissful’ state, which I would have to stop fueling in order to get back to sensuousness.

RICHARD: Whereas what I thought, when it started happening to me, was how wonderful life itself is inasmuch, with human consciousness being plastic, malleable, a global peace and harmony is now a likelihood in my lifetime.

---
[1] Richard: (...) nibbana is the end of the universe – as in it being where water, earth, fire and wind have no footing – as expressed by the Pali words ‘ettha āpo ca paṭhavī tejo vāyo na gādhati’, in DN I 223, for instance. Vis.:
• ettha: here, in this place; also temporal ‘now’, & modal ‘in this case, in this matter’.
• āpo: water.
• ca: (copulative) and, then, now; most frequent in connecting two or three words, usually placed after the second, but also after the third.
• paṭhavī: the earth. It figures as the first element in enumeration of the 4 elements, viz. paṭhavī, āpo, tejo, vāyo (earth, water, fire, wind or the elements of the extension, cohesion, heat and motion).
• tejo: fire, heat.
• vāyo: wind.
• na: negative & adversative particle ‘not’; often apostr. n’ atthi, n’ etaṃ etc.; or contracted: nāhaṃ, nāpi etc., or with cuphonic consonant y: nayidaṃ.
• gādhati: to stand fast, to be on firm ground, to have a firm footing: āpo ca paṭhavī ca tejo vāyo na gādhati ‘the four elements have no footing’.
(D i.223 = S i.15). (Pali text society; pali-english dictionary).
thumbnail
sawfoot _, modified 8 Years ago at 2/28/14 3:21 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/28/14 3:21 AM

RE: Chakras and *AF*

Posts: 507 Join Date: 3/11/13 Recent Posts
John Wilde:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

(c) it wouldn't stop those changes, but it would render you incapable of perceiving them. So your heart rate would increase, and your palms would be sweaty, just like normal people, but you would be incapable of noticing these things, since if you noticed these things you would according the theory be experiencing an emotion.


With that in mind, I don't understand how the theory could account for alexithymia. If the physiological reaction is the emotion, how could one person experience it as emotion while another does not?



The physiological reaction is not the emotion, it is the perception of the physiological emotion that is the emotion (broadly speaking). Alexithymia is then a problem in categorisation - they lack the ability to properly categorise their physiological states and have an impoverished conceptual system with regard to emotion.

John Wilde:


Once a person casts off consensus reality -- and there are many ways that this can and does happen -- e.g., by believing that one is at the vanguard of human consciousness and/or has a divine mission -- it's going to lead to profoundly different ways of experiencing and explaining life than if you remain within the consensus reality (which depends no less on those same feedback mechanisms).

And when you extend this over a period of decades, there's a lot of opportunity for discovering things that lay way outside the normal band of human experience, but there's also a lot of scope for going a long way astray, especially if you lack reliable feedback from someone who can set you straight when you're wrong, and when it's needed. But if the very nature of your belief system makes you impervious to feedback and impervious to the best explanation of what's really going on, etc, you're really walled up in something impenetrable.

For that reason, I usually take it at face value when someone says "I experience XYZ", but when they say "I experience XYZ because of ABC", I'm a lot more cautious.


A nice description of religions/cults/spiritual traditions/many DhOers...