So I got out of this depression, and now I am feeling neutral with life. But still seeking joy, in everday activities.

Are you all doing this path for the reasons in the title aswell? How is it working out for you?

Side question: I saw Daniel's vids on the Jhanas, it is interesting, but it also seems restless in a way because they repeat over and over again. I thought there was a point where you have it and it's done so to speak.

I meditate twice a day for around  20-35min btw, never done any retreats.

What gets done is not something related to the specifics, it is something generic to everything, something much more fundamental and the normal cycles of wake/eat/sleep/repeat, jhanas and ñanas, birth/aging/sickness/death, happy/sad, gain/loss, health/illness, etc.

Until you have seen that, what you can see is the cycles of life in all their varieties. Those are good things to see. Start with those, and with much finer cycles, the cycles of the breath, the cycles of physical sensations oscillating with mental impressions, the cycles of intentions oscillating with actions, the cycles of thoughs and physical sensations oscillating to produce feelings, all those cycles: notice them as they are, in fine detail, and see if that helps.

I must say, I am very, very much happier now in general terms than I was before, but the cycles of life and all the rest still occur, as is their nature.

How about being a better person? You might want to contemplate the interdependence of our lives embedded in family, community, society, etc. My understanding is you can't do something purely for your own happiness without disregarding the ongoing suffering of those around you and sending out ripples of selfishness that others pick up on in your appearance, behaviour, etc., and are unconsciously influenced by (not to mention leaving harmful imprints on your own mind). I think at some point you just need to recognise that our ego-centric nature has probably been the biggest source of misery in human history, and then the question becomes: are you going to be a part of the problem or the solution? You might just snatch SE on a lengthy retreat with that outlook, but it's basically running contrary to the whole process of awakening.

Yes, life is a circle, I got that on mushrooms once. Nice to be reminded of it.

I guess I should do more research but I am going to ask anyways. What is stream entry? Why would I want to snatch that and does it bring me the things I mentioned in the title? (or is this too much mind talk/desire lol)

Also, what you said goes together with what the Guru of Ram Dass said, I forgot his name, when Ram asked him how to get enlightened, he said: 'Feed people, serve people' ^^

howdy,
as  a start try reading "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha" written by the gent who responded to your post.  Its available as a pdf online.

As to what Stream Entry is: there are a few different interpretations and measures of that.  The most common one used here is a change one experiences after seeing through some of the basic illusions we take for granted.

In the theravada model there are four stages, or paths, of enlightenment.  Stream entry is the name given to achieving the first of these four paths.  It is usually marked by no longer believing in the separate illusory independent self, no longer believing in ceremonial acts and ritual being enlightening in and of themselves and the removal of doubt about the possibility of enlightenment being achievable.  Something like that.

have fun.

tom

Thank you. SE sounds like a great stage (and almost looks like a life cure for most problems and depression/sadness, because it is the indepent self that causes these problems right). Maybe I am exaggerating.

I take a look at his book for sure, but just to be clear. How big of a chance, of a probability do I have to experience true peace, joy and bliss? For ever?

Hi,
big questions to which you will get lots of different answers. i have never met anyone who is completely happy all of the time, living in constant unbroken bliss and the prospect of the rest of their days being like that.

one thing that is not often mentioned in most meditation / spiritual traditions is that the path of contemplation is not a linear one from disssatisfaction to perfect satisfaction.  ones affective sense changes all of the time.  some of the reasons have to do with false impressions about the way things are.  as we see through these illusions we let go of them and they have less to say about our moods and reactions.

so while a meditator usually goes through peaks and valleys of emotion the tendency is towards peace and ease.  stream entry is generally acknowleged by those who have experienced it as a great relief. a setting down of an unnecessary load.  i have seen reports too of people who have experienced very deep dark night (negative emotional) symptoms after first path (stream entry).

go ahead and read MCTB.  you will understand much more about this place and maybe more about yourself and the possibilities available to you.

good luck

tom

I'll step in and make everyone groan.  What you're probably looking for, OP, is Actualism (Actual Freedom).  The goal of Theravada is to accept emotions and cycles as they are.  If you want to eliminate negative emotions/passions, you'll need to investigate them directly.  If you haven't staked a claim to any traditions yet, though, why not just call yourself a "contemplative" and try a bunch of different stuff and mix the parts you like best?  Then tell us all how it works out!  I like your goal, ignore anyone who says it's impractical.

bump

last bump

another last bump

Have you read MCTB yet? link - http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB+

In it Daniel discusses the various view on what enlightenment may entail.  Here is one similar to your question - http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB+The+Perpetual+Bliss+Models

You may wish to check out the various models of enlightenment and then reask your questions from there
MCTB Models of the Stages of Enlightenment

• MCTB The Non-Duality Model
• MCTB The Sudden Schools of Awakening
• MCTB The Fundamental Perception Models
• MCTB The Specific Perception Models
• MCTB The Emotional Models
• MCTB The Theravada Four Path Model
• MCTB A Revised Four Path Model
• MCTB A Simple Model
• MCTB The Action Models
• MCTB The Power Models
• MCTB The Tibetan Ten Bhumi Model
• MCTB The Tibetan Five Path Model
• MCTB The Energetic Models
• MCTB The Specific Knowledge Models
• MCTB The Psychological Models
• MCTB The Thought Models
• MCTB The God Models
• MCTB The Physical Models
• MCTB The Radiance Models
• MCTB The Karma Models
• MCTB The Perpetual Bliss Models
• MCTB The Three Kayas
• MCTB The Immortality Models
• MCTB The Transcendence Models
• MCTB The Extinction Models
• MCTB The Love Models
• MCTB The Unity Models
• MCTB The Social Models
• MCTB The Three Yanas

Good Luck,
~D

The perceptual bliss model article was nice thank you, I don't think I want to read all that as I am not even sure persuing this path is worth is, I will meditate for about half an hour a day to calm down but I can't see atm why I would take it more seriously.
I am hoping for more reactions from people that can take themselves as example like Daniel did, or lay out the benefits more clearly for me (even though you just did that but it's so much text)

Thanks for the responses btw.

I'm not sure anyone sets out on this path because they've been sold on the future benefits. It's more like something you're either drawn to or you're not. In my case, it was a kind of curiosity, even a philosophical curiosity, about the true nature of reality. That being said, there are benefits, though perhaps not the ones you imagine in the beginning. BTW your earlier post (May 11) is correct. It is the fiction of an independent self that gives uncomfortable feelings something to stick to. Seeing through that fiction, along with the other factors Tom mentions, is the definition of "stream entry."

The above statement is false, Right Effort is just one example that contradicts your statement., also known as four right exertions, four right strivings.  Where did you get this mis-understanding?  If one is to just accept emotions and cycles as they are they would never make any progress, the mass of the population accepts emotions and cycles as they are, that's why people are on the emotional merry-go-round, up and down round and round.  They don't know they can get off, much less how.  Maybe my understanding of your statement or of Theraveda is different.

Right Effort:


First , to abandon an unwholesome state that has already arisen.

Second, to not let unwholesome state arise that has not yet arisen.

Third, to arouse a wholesome state that has not yet arisen.

Fourth, to maintain a wholesome state that has already arisen

Psi Phi

Exactly, I started on this path because it was an imperative, I
had too. It was do or die.

I like to use the metaphor of a poison or vaccine, the bitter toxic venom is injected into your body, it is samvega, it urges you to act, if you don't act you die. But there is a catch, the poison is a vaccine, it is not harmful. No one dies. Rather it makes a man out of you.

After the body has digested the poison and alchemised it, it continues to remain in your system. However you only keep the positive beneifts of the poison, as the toxin is now harmless!

This is the definition of the dark night, transmutation and alchemy.

Could someone line these up for me ?  Or is there some article on this?
Because my question is that basically, what benefits will gain I from reading these spiritual books, going to retraits, doing a lot of meditation etc.
(bonus points if the benefits that you tell me are what happened to you).

Sorry for so much text.
Good luck in your meditations, however you do that.
May you find the calm that you are seeking.
May you experience first hand bliss, peace, fullfillment and happiness, be it permanent, or temporary.
~D

Yes, but I don't see how just a thought arising can remove all sensations of bliss?

For me the most direct benefits are a relatively permanent tranquility and contentedness that either wasn't there before or wasn't noticed before, however you want to look at it.  The mind is free and relatively detached from thoughts.

To a degree, I for one did seek this stuff out, worked at it, there was curiousity about whatever "enlightened" people were talking about.  It's definitely not what I thought it was going to be.

What amazes me are the masses trying to define a concept that they cannot see. I received the gift of the knowledge of Perceptual Bliss in 1976 before perceptual was in the dictionary as an adverb. If you bother to google it, you will see, there is only one me.
Perceptual Bliss does exist, it is a matter of how and where you expect to attain it.
In living bodies, it is not a constant, yet a pursuit of it will generate positive energy that will have an influence on our own life as well as others. That is the purpose.
To manifest more positive energy in the world than there is negative. This is about all existence, not just our own.
Currently we are not manifesting more positive energy than there is negative.
If you truly seek Perceptual Bliss in the living, don't just focus on the self. Mend the self by being positive and share that positive energy with others to create the wave.
pb